Tell me about public school and academically advanced children

[Sherry in OH]

Dh wants our children to attend school (5th and 7th grades).  He is, reluctantly, open to homeschooling one more year but is adamant that that will be it. The children do not want to go school.  While I disagree with dh's primary reason for wanting the children to attend school, I cannot homeschool without his support.  He is leaving the decision on whether to enroll them this year or next up to me.

I am torn.  Reasons for enrolling them this year: 

• The schools within the district are arranged into elementary, middle (5th-6th), junior high (7th-8th), and high schools.  All other 5th and 7th graders would also be new to the school.
• We moved to this location this past spring and have no homeschool connections.  Making connections only to break them in a year's time could be rough. (Would we make much of an effort knowing that the situation is temporary?)
• If the children were in a school setting, they would of necessity interact with more people and thus have greater potential for making friends.  (Dh's concerns regarding isolation is valid.  It took three years for us to make any friends in our previous location and we never really fit in with the organized homeschool groups. On the other hand, quirky non-athletic boys in the public school could be a disaster.)
• Older ds might be able to begin Algebra I (he will have to test in) and take pre-AP coursework (again, school may require him to test in)
• Younger ds might qualify for a gifted pull out class and/or pre-AP coursework (school would require testing)
• Many extracurricular activities are available via the schools (I do not know AR regulations regarding homeschoolers and public school extracurriculars, we would not pursue them if homeschooling)
• Forced exercise as the assigned schools are within walking distance
• I am still exhausted from our move and have done only cursory prep for next school year
• Dh will not be supportive of homeschooling and any bad days will be met with 'so put them in school'

 

Reasons for homeschooling one more year:

• Many more opportunities for homeschoolers than were available in our previous location. 
• We are new to this region of the country.  Homeschooling would allow flexibilty for exploring the area.
• The school district requires that homeschoolers take placement tests. Oldest ds is an erratic tester.  For example, on his 6th grade ITBS, he scored in the 99th percentile in mathematics but 79th in computation. (This was better than previous year, his first for testing, in which he had a meltdown during the computation section.)  He does well when he is relaxed and can take his time, but tends to either freeze or make foolish errors when he feels pressured.  Time constraints stress him.  We have no information about the placement tests beyond that they are required.  If ds freezes on the math test, he will not be allowed to enroll in Algebra I.  He has completed AOPS Pre-Algebra.  By staying home one more year, he could begin Intro to Algebra.  He would still have to test, mommy grades are insufficient, but doing poorly on the test would more likely have him repeat Algebra I than pre-Algebra.  
• Oldest ds is not advanced in all subjects.  His language arts scores are all over the board.  He scored high in reading comprehension and vocabulary and low in capitalization and punctuation.  The test confirmed my observations.  Despite all attempts to teach him writing conventions, he has not internalized them. He almost certainly lags behind public schooled children in writing ability and use of technology for learning.  Keeping him home one more year would allow him another year to work on writing and typing.
• Youngest ds is likely gifted (99th percentile in grade level ITBS, he has not taken CogAT). He has always completed most schoolwork on the same level as his older brother.  He has a low threshhold for boredome and resists doing anything he considers busywork.  The school he would attend offers a 1-day a week pullout program for gifted and talented students, IF he qualifies.  Otherwise, placement tests would be used to determine whether he qualifiies for pre-AP classes.  His teachers might give him special assignments, but my brief conversation with the school representative gave me the impression that this would be extra work rather than alternate assignments.  This child will not want to do extra work. I do not see the benefit of a pull-out program.  Keeping him home one more year would allow time for exploring other options.  Could CogAT scores help us argue for better placement?
• We moved to the area too late attempt for placement in a charter school.  By waiting a year to enroll the children, we could research the charters and attempt for placement without first enrolling them in the assigned schools.  
•  This past school year was rough.  Dh was laid off then offered a position in another region of the country.  He moved five months ahead of us.  We dropped most extracurriculars and non-essential schoolwork.  The boys took their ITBS tests cold and did extremely well.  They do not want to go to school.  Sending them feels like punishing them for a situation beyond their control.

 

The children endured a lot of changes in the past year.  Would it be better to make one more big change now or postpone it for a year?

[Lecka]

I have a 7th grader a rising 8th grader) who is quirky and unathletic.  

Middle school has been good for him.  There are more kids, so there are a lot more quirky and unathletic kids for him to be friends with.  They are around.

There are also more popular interests for this age group that appeal to him.  Anime is popular.  Magic:  The Gathering has some kids who like it.  Video games are popular.

Last year Minecraft was very, very popular.  

He had much worse problems when he was younger with recess in upper elementary being about boys playing a sport.... that is not the case at all in middle school, they don’t have recess, they just hang around in the cafeteria which is better for my son.  

I think it’s a valid concern, but just sharing some potential positives to the older age and larger school.  

 

[MinivanMom]

There are a lot of advantages to starting middle school or junior high when all the other kids are also new. Many schools will also do orientation events for the entire 5th grade or 7th grade class where kids learn about the school, walk through their schedules, and do bonding-type activities. It would be harder to come in as a 6th grader or as an 8th grader and be the new kid. Have you spent some time on the school websites to see what the procedures are for enrollment, gifted identification, or math placement? If there are orientation events, then they are probably already on the calendar.

I also agree that in some ways middle school/junior high can be gentler on smart, quirky kids. Usually kids are starting to be separated into academic tracks. Recess often disappears, but kids can start taking electives. A quirky, non-athletic kid can usually find their group among the various clubs & electives. I know ms/jh social dynamics have a bad reputation (deservedly so), but I've been surprised at how many of my public school friends report that their quirky, non-athletic kids have finally found their group in middle school band or middle school math team or just in middle school advanced classes. To my surprise, everyone seems to report that their quirky kid is doing better socially in ms than they did in elementary. Go figure.

If going to b&m school is a definite thing (whether this year or next), then I would also work on projecting a positive attitude and confidence to your boys. You want them to know that mom is confident they can make friends and succeed academically so that they see you as their cheerleader and soft place to fall when things are rough or don't go perfectly. But it may go really well. And I can see some definite positives in doing the transition now when they're already transitioning to a new home.

[daijobu]

I won't take a vote on whether or not to enroll in school.  But you will have a stronger case for your dh to homeschool if things don't work out at school.  So perhaps give it a go, and like a PP wrote, go in with a good positive attitude toward school.  Keep DH in the loop about any successes or difficulties your students are experiencing there.  Good luck!  

[Lawyer&Mom]

I know that once a week pullout for gifted kids doesn’t sound like much, but it actually worked pretty well for me in middle school.  It gave me a chance to meet and bond with other gifted kids, who I could then hang out with outside the classroom.  Our pull outs where all-grades, so I also got to interact with older kids which I really enjoyed.  Middle school *is* rough, but it’s also where I finally found a group of friends.

[Dmmetler]

Where are you in AR? A friend of ours has has a great experience with a very small K-8 charter that allowed her child to individualize to a great degree. I follow the school on FB, and they have posted that they still have space for fall. Honestly, I’m jealous-if we’d had that option here,we probably would have taken it for middle school. 

[Sherry in OH]

13 hours ago, dmmetler said:

Where are you in AR? A friend of ours has has a great experience with a very small K-8 charter that allowed her child to individualize to a great degree. I follow the school on FB, and they have posted that they still have space for fall. Honestly, I’m jealous-if we’d had that option here,we probably would have taken it for middle school. 

 

I sent you a PM.  Thank you.

[katilac]

On 7/16/2018 at 9:49 AM, Sherry in OH said:

 The children endured a lot of changes in the past year.  Would it be better to make one more big change now or postpone it for a year?

 

 

What do the kids think? 

23 hours ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

I know that once a week pullout for gifted kids doesn’t sound like much, but it actually worked pretty well for me in middle school.  It gave me a chance to meet and bond with other gifted kids, who I could then hang out with outside the classroom.  Our pull outs where all-grades, so I also got to interact with older kids which I really enjoyed.  Middle school *is* rough, but it’s also where I finally found a group of friends.

 

Yes, the social aspects of gifted pullout are a real advantage. Even if you don't make close friends, it's a place to meet other kids who identify with being a bit different, and a place to relax and be yourself. Our pullout was one period a day in junior and high school, rotating through classes, so it does vary. 

[madteaparty]

My (older) kid is not even that academically advanced, and public school would be just so convenient (it’s fine. They offer the APs.), but I can’t do it. I can’t do it especially because this is a liberal arts kid. There’s no foreign language and no English classes he can take at this school. I’m familiar with some of the English teachers and basically over my dead body and even then probably not ? I’m putting a rider in my will (joking!)

if I had a traditionally sporty or a STEM kid this school would likely be fine. I like the math teacher.

Now my youngest tests gifted supposedly but she is happy in public school with no pullout or any sort of differentiation at all, and I’m fine with her there until about 4th grade. We after school in various forms. She will have to go to private unless she changes her mind about homeschooling then. 

[Sherry in OH]

On 7/18/2018 at 10:27 AM, katilac said:

 

What do the kids think? 

They do not want to go to public school this year, next year, or ever.   Panicked look from one, tears from the other whenever school is mentioned.  If he has to go to school, younger son would like to attend the independent school in a nearby city.  That school offers individualized study and mixed grade classes.  Unfortunately we cannot afford the school.  It would cost less to send them to the university.  I have placed their names on the waiting lists for a classical charter school.  Their chances at admission for this school year are slight.  

Yes, the social aspects of gifted pullout are a real advantage. Even if you don't make close friends, it's a place to meet other kids who identify with being a bit different, and a place to relax and be yourself. Our pullout was one period a day in junior and high school, rotating through classes, so it does vary. 

 

My poor opinion off gifted pullouts are based on my experiences.  Several of my middle school teachers resented having students pulled from their classes for 'special' treatment.  Having to make up missed work was bad enough.  The verbal scathing for being absent from class due to the pullout program or making errors on assignments led me to dread certain classes.   

 

[Sherry in OH]

On 7/16/2018 at 1:36 PM, MinivanMom said:

There are a lot of advantages to starting middle school or junior high when all the other kids are also new. Many schools will also do orientation events for the entire 5th grade or 7th grade class where kids learn about the school, walk through their schedules, and do bonding-type activities. It would be harder to come in as a 6th grader or as an 8th grader and be the new kid. Have you spent some time on the school websites to see what the procedures are for enrollment, gifted identification, or math placement? If there are orientation events, then they are probably already on the calendar.

The school website is uninformative. The information about placement is a restatement of state code.  Which is the same information the district office staff gave me when I called to determine which schools my children would attend.  I must contact the individual schools.  They are closed until next week.  Registration starts next week.  Per the district office, if I want to ensure placement in the assigned schools, I need to register them promptly.  After next week, students may transfer from other schools in the district.   Once all slots in the local school are filled, students will be assigned to whichever schools in the district have space.

 

On 7/16/2018 at 1:36 PM, MinivanMom said:

I also agree that in some ways middle school/junior high can be gentler on smart, quirky kids. Usually kids are starting to be separated into academic tracks. Recess often disappears, but kids can start taking electives. A quirky, non-athletic kid can usually find their group among the various clubs & electives. I know ms/jh social dynamics have a bad reputation (deservedly so), but I've been surprised at how many of my public school friends report that their quirky, non-athletic kids have finally found their group in middle school band or middle school math team or just in middle school advanced classes. To my surprise, everyone seems to report that their quirky kid is doing better socially in ms than they did in elementary. Go figure.

If going to b&m school is a definite thing (whether this year or next), then I would also work on projecting a positive attitude and confidence to your boys. You want them to know that mom is confident they can make friends and succeed academically so that they see you as their cheerleader and soft place to fall when things are rough or don't go perfectly. But it may go really well. And I can see some definite positives in doing the transition now when they're already transitioning to a new home.

 

[katilac]

1 hour ago, Sherry in OH said:

My poor opinion off gifted pullouts are based on my experiences.  Several of my middle school teachers resented having students pulled from their classes for 'special' treatment. Having to make up missed work was bad enough.  The verbal scathing for being absent from class due to the pullout program or making errors on assignments led me to dread certain classes.   

 

2

 

I had the same experience! Although I think it was mostly one teacher, she was quite vocal and, as you put it, scathing. I remain amazed to this day that an adult would be so negative and confrontational with 11-yr-olds. I didn't continue with that program, the bus ride was too long, so I don't know if she was singular in her reaction. 

None of my high school teachers cared, or at least did not express it. 

[katilac]

If you decide to homeschool for the coming year, I would focus on two things: involvement in the homeschool community, and getting the kids adjusted to typical timed testing. 

Involvement will greatly enhance your year, and they are quite likely to meet kids who also wind up in school the following year, or who have siblings in school. Middle school is when lots of people return to typical schooling, and the closer high school gets, the more people who make this decision. And I'll admit that the sneakier part of my brain is thinking that lots of activities and a bit of social success might change your husband's mind about the following year. You don't state his main reason for wanting them in school, but, ime, dads of quirky, non-athletic boys often struggle to figure out the best way to support them, even if they were the same way (possibly they know how hard it can be in certain environments). Lots of people see going to school as something that will encourage kids to conform and behave more like 'a regular kid.' If this comes into play with your dh, seeing the kids active in group activities might help. Or, if it doesn't, they will still benefit and likely meet other kids who also wind up in school. 

Practice with timed testing will help get them placed correctly and will make school much easier. 

[Sherry in OH]

Dh's publicly stated reason for wanting to send the children to school is that we live in a highly rated school district.  Since I insisted on living in town rather than an outer suburb he wants to use the schools that his taxes support.  He has also told me that he doesn't think I am smart enough to teach higher level subjects.     

And yes, dh sees the boys' quirky introverted nature as something to be fixed.  

 

[Lawyer&Mom]

3 hours ago, Sherry in OH said:

 

My poor opinion off gifted pullouts are based on my experiences.  Several of my middle school teachers resented having students pulled from their classes for 'special' treatment.  Having to make up missed work was bad enough.  The verbal scathing for being absent from class due to the pullout program or making errors on assignments led me to dread certain classes.   

 

 

Well that’s just awful.  We had pullout during a special once a week additional period.  Kids who didn’t have pullout had study hall.  No one missed class.  (We had *a lot* of kids qualify, so there were multiple options and you could pick your pull out class.  I did journalism.)

[MinivanMom]

45 minutes ago, Sherry in OH said:

Dh's publicly stated reason for wanting to send the children to school is that we live in a highly rated school district.  Since I insisted on living in town rather than an outer suburb he wants to use the schools that his taxes support.  He has also told me that he doesn't think I am smart enough to teach higher level subjects.     

And yes, dh sees the boys' quirky introverted nature as something to be fixed.  

 

 

Have you lived in a highly rated school district before? We live in an affluent suburb in an upper-class, techy area. We are zoned for highly-ranked schools in a highly-ranked district. It does affect the homeschool dynamic.

In our area, most people with academically-strong, high-achieving kids send them to public school. There are lots of people here who homeschool because they find public school to be too academic, and their kids can't keep up. So you will find lots of homeschoolers with special needs & learning disabilities. And you will find lots of homeschool families who prefer to have a more relaxed, video-game centered lifestyle instead of all the academic work & achievement that is pushed in school. The academic homeschoolers and the homeschoolers with gifted children are few, and they tend to move their kids back to public school by middle school.

We spent years trying to find our place within the homeschool community. I finally had to listen to my kids who preferred spending time with the public school friends they met through activities. Those were the kids who had similar academic abilities and similar interests. Those were the kids who were smart and quirky. Our oldest opted for public high school and that was a fantastic choice for her. We're encouraging our oldest son to make the same choice when he starts high school next year.

So I don't think your husband is wrong. His reasoning is a bit flawed - it sounds like he doesn't want his tax dollars to go to waste - but living in an highly rated district should be a consideration. Not because that means you are obligated to send your kids to public school, but because it will affect the makeup and dynamic of the local homeschool community. And because it may mean that there is a solid group of quirky, introverted boys at your local public school.

[MinivanMom]

Can you keep all your options open for a few more weeks while you get a feel for the area and get a feel for the vibe in different school settings? If I were in your shoes, I would be tempted to go enroll the boys at the public schools to hold their spots while also visiting homeschool groups and the charter school.

If the charter school is a better option, it might make sense to negotiate with your husband for two more years of homeschooling. That would allow you to apply for the charter next year, but give you the wiggle room to homeschool an additional year if they don't get a charter spot. If they didn't get the charter spots, then they could start school the following year in 7th & 9th which would be so much better than 6th & 8th. They would both be starting when all the students are new, and it would give you time to work on whatever testing skills you think they need to develop. It would also give the boys time to adjust and find the good in this transition instead of feeling like so much stressful change is being thrown at them all at once. 

Has your husband talked to the boys about this? Does he see that they are stressed?

[Sherry in OH]

4 minutes ago, Danae said:

 

I don't want to project my own reaction onto your post, but that would be an absolute conversation stopper in my marriage. I can't imaging my husband saying it, but if he did it would be a total kick in the gut. Are you okay?

 

I am offended but okay.  Thanks for asking.

 

 

[SeaConquest]

1 hour ago, Danae said:

 

I don't want to project my own reaction onto your post, but that would be an absolute conversation stopper in my marriage. I can't imaging my husband saying it, but if he did it would be a total kick in the gut. Are you okay?

 

I'm sorry, but I wouldn't tolerate that kind of verbal abuse, and I certainly wouldn't let it drive decisions about my children's educations. Have you thought about discussing all of this with a therapist? OP,  you sound pretty beat down.

[chiguirre]

7 hours ago, Sherry in OH said:

Dh's publicly stated reason for wanting to send the children to school is that we live in a highly rated school district.  Since I insisted on living in town rather than an outer suburb he wants to use the schools that his taxes support.  He has also told me that he doesn't think I am smart enough to teach higher level subjects.     

And yes, dh sees the boys' quirky introverted nature as something to be fixed.  

 

That wasn't the most tactful thing for your dh to say, OP. However, he does have a point. No one is smart enough to be an excellent physics, calculus, AP Lit, computer science, French and medieval history teacher. That's why upper grade teachers only teach one or two subjects. That's why so there's so much discussion of outsourcing classes or finding self teaching options on the high school board.

[kiwik]

Those words would be a problem.  Saying teaching x at a high level might be too much for you would be a bit different.  But with the internet you can outsource your weakest area.

[daijobu]

12 hours ago, Sherry in OH said:

Dh's publicly stated reason for wanting to send the children to school is that we live in a highly rated school district.  Since I insisted on living in town rather than an outer suburb he wants to use the schools that his taxes support.  He has also told me that he doesn't think I am smart enough to teach higher level subjects.     

 

 

Two words for your DH:  Sunk cost.  (aka, don't throw your kids under the bus just because you paid for it.)

[Ann.without.an.e]

Have you talked to your local school?  I had this thought right before my oldest DD went into 9th.  I was afraid of high school and so I called.  They said that dd would have to go into regular class (not honors, not AP, etc) because she didn't have 8th grade end of year exam grade's to place her elsewhere.  I asked this person if she could take another test and they said no.  I told her that dd had already taken the ACT and had a perfect score on the English portion, could that not qualify her....the answer was no.  We already have a very broken school system here.  There was no way I was putting her into a rough school in regular classes.  But no matter how I asked the question, the answer was no, she can't be in a higher class.  It was senseless.  I decided that it wasn't an option for her.  Call the school. See what the conversation goes like.  How will they work with your kid(s)?

[slackermom]

I am adding in my few cents regarding transitions, having put my kid back into school a few years ago, for grade 6, at a 6-8 regional public charter school.

First, even though your area schools start at grade 5 and 7, most of the other kids in the area will know each other already, so starting at an "entry" grade does not make as much of a difference as you might think, socially. There will be some introductory stuff at the beginning of each new school, but they won't trump the groups formed at the previous neighborhood schools, or in soccer, scouts, etc.

Second, the year leading into the next school seems much more relevant, in terms of prep and placement. My kid will be entering a public high school next year, for grade 9, and we had school deadlines throughout 8th grade: November, testing for public exam schools; January, lottery forms for various public options, including charters; February, audition and portfolio for public performing arts school; March, respond to any acceptance letters; April-May, statewide standardized tests; June, school-specific placement tests, and depending on how those went, some kids are assigned to in-school summer prep programming in July-August.  For my kid's middle school classmates who are attending other high schools in the region, for which there is a single high school for their town, 9th grade class schedules were coordinated through the 8th grade guidance counselor, based on teacher recs, and paperwork was due by the end of March. 

Third, your kids are coming from homeschooling, and a rough year at that, and may not be in the best position to succeed in the new district if they have to jump right in, possibly out of level (up or down). I think time spent preparing to transition to the best fit would be time very well spent. Get your kids and yourself settled in your new home, and homeschool the fall semester with the background goal of preparing your kids for eventual entry into the public schools. Meanwhile, you learn what you can about the area schools, their policies, deadlines, etc. Maybe get to know some local homeschoolers, some of whom will probably be sending their kids to school eventually.

You don't have to time it to coordinate with the next school entry grade (5/7/9), nor do you even need to enroll at the beginning of a school year. People move, kids transfer in and out all the time (I was an Army kid, so don't I know it!), but at this time of year, you will likely be at the mercy of one individual at each school who decides what, or even if, exceptions shall be made for your children. Perhaps by January you will have worked your way to a sympathetic person within the school system, and the timing for your kids will make itself clearer. Or perhaps your husband will have a change of heart, who knows?

eta: I did not address your question regarding academically advanced children, hmmm. 

My child was coming from homeschooling, for last minute entry to grade 6, off the lottery waitlist. School had just started, and a few kids hadn't shown up. Because of this, we had missed the required placement testing (everyone takes it in the spring), but I had standardized tests showing scores of only 99%, on both math and verbal, for multiple years. I told the kid (but not the school) that we would only accept the spot if it included a spot in the advanced math track (preA-6, Alg-7, Geo-8), and that is the schedule they offered. Otherwise, we would have just kept homeschooling and looking for the next best fit, whatever that would be. Even then it was a repeat of Pre-A for my kid, but better than most public options. Perhaps we lucked out because they were trying to fill a seat, rather than the other way around? Our public school are funded based on number of students enrolled. We later learned that a friend at that school (who got in during the normal lottery process) tried to show standardized test scores instead of taking the school placement tests, due to temporarily living out of state at the time, but the school refused, and insisted that she take their tests in person, or give up the seat. So she and her mom flew in from Florida just for that. This was the same school! So I guess there is official policy, and then whatever someone decides to do.... Or maybe there are times when official policy is more official than others.

 

Edited August 5, 2018 by slackermom
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