Angelina Jolie/Brad Pitt

[Scarlett]

Judge has smacked down on her.  It is hard to know what is going on but some of the things the judge specifically listed that she is required to do or prohibited from doing make it seem that she is attempting to alienate them from their dad.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/13/entertainment/angelina-jolie-brad-pitt-custody-order/index.html

[gardenmom5]

Reports are her mother alienated her from her father.  So she's being like her mom.

 

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Reports are her mother alienated her from her father.  So she's being like her mom.

 

Yes, she strikes me as extremely controlling.  I sure hate it for the kids.  I am surprised that the judge has allowed the 16 year old to decide for himself how much time he spends with his dad. And don't get me wrong....I am not a fan of Brad Pitt either....but he at least has not given up trying to stay in his kids lives.

[Katy]

So back when they broke up the rumor was that his drug use was too much for her.  But it was mostly pot, which has been legalized in multiple places.  I wonder if the rumors are true, and if so how much legal changes have affected that, and if not, what happened?

She does seem to be replaying the dynamics of her parents.

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

So back when they broke up the rumor was that his drug use was too much for her.  But it was mostly pot, which has been legalized in multiple places.  I wonder if the rumors are true, and if so how much legal changes have affected that, and if not, what happened?

She does seem to be replaying the dynamics of her parents.

More than that I think he got a good attorney and the truth is coming out.  That maybe he is just a flawed father and she is too but she is trying to alienate the kids from him.  A lot of people do it.

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

Things rarely go well if parents choose to alienate and manipulate, aside from cases of abuse.

I admire both as actors, don’t think it’s my business to judge their private lives. IMO, a 16 year old is old enough to have a big say in who they want to visit.

A discussion of public figures is hardly judging them.  

16 year olds are not old enough to enter into contracts so I don't really agree they should get to cut off contact with a parent barring some sort of abuse.  

[Annie G]

40 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

 

16 year olds are not old enough to enter into contracts so I don't really agree they should get to cut off contact with a parent barring some sort of abuse.  

It could just as easily mean he can see his dad as often as he wants instead of only on a prearranged schedule. I guess I think 16 is old enough to decide to see a parent often or rarely or not at all. Especially a 16 year old Jolie-Pitt kid who isn’t sheltered and probably is quite mature. 

Yeah, I know it probably means he won’t see his dad especially since it was reported that there was a physical altercation between him and Pitt at the time of the breakup.  But maybe having the freedom to call his own shots will result in an improved relationship w Pitt. That’s difficult to force for sure. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Annie G said:

It could just as easily mean he can see his dad as often as he wants instead of only on a prearranged schedule. I guess I think 16 is old enough to decide to see a parent often or rarely or not at all. Especially a 16 year old Jolie-Pitt kid who isn’t sheltered and probably is quite mature. 

Yeah, I know it probably means he won’t see his dad especially since it was reported that there was a physical altercation between him and Pitt at the time of the breakup.  But maybe having the freedom to call his own shots will result in an improved relationship w Pitt. That’s difficult to force for sure. 

Well I have been on both sides of this.....it nearly destroyed my dh when his then 15 refused to see him and the mom and step dad actively encouraged that and even more aggressive rude treatment of dh.  And then I have my ds who hated visitation with a passion.  When he was 14 his dad told him he was not going to force him anymore and that ds should come visit him when he wanted.  Well, 14 year old ds was like 'whoo hoo freedom!!!'  I don't believe he would have EVER wanted to see his dad again.  In spite of all that XH did to me and to ds that resulted in our family being broken, xh is still a human being, a father, who needs a little kindness.  So I came up with the dinner twice a month plan and I insisted ds go.  Now at 18, when ds legally wouldn't have to, he still meets his dad for dinner twice a month.  So no, I don't believe a 16 year old should get to make the decision to see a parent or not. 

[Catwoman]

When I read this article, all I could think was that it seems like those poor kids must spend a tremendous amount of time with therapists.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/celebrity/angelina-jolie-barred-from-monitoring-kids-phones-amidst-threat-of-losing-custody/ar-AAyzmna

It would appear that both Brad and Angelina must have some serious issues if the kids are required by the court to have that level of intervention from third parties (like the therapists.)

I’m not taking either parent’s side because I have no way of knowing what’s going on in their lives, but I feel very sorry for the children. It’s a shame that they are caught in the middle of their parents’ problems.

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

When I read this article, all I could think was that it seems like those poor kids must spend a tremendous amount of time with therapists.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/celebrity/angelina-jolie-barred-from-monitoring-kids-phones-amidst-threat-of-losing-custody/ar-AAyzmna

It would appear that both Brad and Angelina must have some serious issues if the kids are required by the court to have that level of intervention from third parties (like the therapists.)

I’m not taking either parent’s side because I have no way of knowing what’s going on in their lives, but I feel very sorry for the children. It’s a shame that they are caught in the middle of their parents’ problems.

Yes I noticed that too Cat.  How weird that a therapist has to be with him during visitation at this point.  It is probably what he agreed to just to see his kids if she is being as controlling and vindictive as the court ruling indicates.  

[Catwoman]

19 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Yes I noticed that too Cat.  How weird that a therapist has to be with him during visitation at this point.  It is probably what he agreed to just to see his kids if she is being as controlling and vindictive as the court ruling indicates.  

 

Well, I’m not sure I would necessarily assume that Angelina is the only one at fault here. Maybe she’s being controlling and vindictive, as you suggest, but maybe she’s mostly just a concerned mom who is worried that her ex may be an unfit parent.  Also, whenever I have seen photos of her with the children, they all seem very happy and relaxed together, so I’m not so quick to blame her and assume that Brad is a great dad. 

I honestly don’t know whether either of them is a great parent, but if the court is requiring so much supervision and therapy for the kids every time they see their father, it seems like the judge must have at least some reservations about Brad.

[Scarlett]

10 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

Well, I’m not sure I would necessarily assume that Angelina is the only one at fault here. Maybe she’s being controlling and vindictive, as you suggest, but maybe she’s mostly just a concerned mom who is worried that her ex may be an unfit parent.  Also, whenever I have seen photos of her with the children, they all seem very happy and relaxed together, so I’m not so quick to blame her and assume that Brad is a great dad. 

I honestly don’t know whether either of them is a great parent, but if the court is requiring so much supervision and therapy for the kids every time they see their father, it seems like the judge must have at least some reservations about Brad.

The judge apparently is equally concerned about Angelina it would seem.  Telling her she must give Brad the cell phone numbers of the kids and she can't monitor the messages or keep them from talking to Brad on the phone. And the judge ordered her to help the children understand their relationship with their father is important.  

 

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

The judge apparently is equally concerned about Angelina it would seem.  Telling her she must give Brad the cell phone numbers of the kids and she can't monitor the messages or keep them from talking to Brad on the phone. And the judge ordered her to help the children understand their relationship with their father is important.  

 

 

Yes, it definitely seems like there are problems on both sides. It must be very difficult to be the judge, because whatever faults and differences Brad and Angelina may have, it certainly appears that they both love their children. I hope the kids aren’t totally messed up as a result of the animosity between their parents. 

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

Yes, it definitely seems like there are problems on both sides. It must be very difficult to be the judge, because whatever faults and differences Brad and Angelina may have, it certainly appears that they both love their children. I hope the kids aren’t totally messed up as a result of the animosity between their parents. 

The sad part Cat is this kind of stuff goes on day in and day out but most people don't have the funds to get it in front of a judge.  

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

Why people should be wary about accepting the existence of 'parental alientation syndrome'.

Worth a read. 

That is a super long article.  I didn't read it, but I know current thinking is PAS doesn't exist.  However, parents who try to alienate their kids from the other parent certainly do exist.  

[Annie G]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Well I have been on both sides of this.....it nearly destroyed my dh when his then 15 refused to see him and the mom and step dad actively encouraged that and even more aggressive rude treatment of dh.  And then I have my ds who hated visitation with a passion.  When he was 14 his dad told him he was not going to force him anymore and that ds should come visit him when he wanted.  Well, 14 year old ds was like 'whoo hoo freedom!!!'  I don't believe he would have EVER wanted to see his dad again.  In spite of all that XH did to me and to ds that resulted in our family being broken, xh is still a human being, a father, who needs a little kindness.  So I came up with the dinner twice a month plan and I insisted ds go.  Now at 18, when ds legally wouldn't have to, he still meets his dad for dinner twice a month.  So no, I don't believe a 16 year old should get to make the decision to see a parent or not. 

I’ve been on both sides of this also and had it turn out well. Sorry your situation didn’t go better, as it sounds like everyone lost out on that deal. 

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

That is a super long article.  I didn't read it, but I know current thinking is PAS doesn't exist.  However, parents who try to alienate their kids from the other parent certainly do exist.  

 

I don’t doubt that it exists, but I also don’t doubt that some parents have very valid reasons for being very wary of their children having a relationship with the other parent. In the case of Brad and Angelina, there have been media rumors of his problems with drugs and alcohol, as well as anger management issues. Are the rumors true? I have no idea. But if they are, I can’t say I would blame Angelina for being extra-protective of her children and preferring that they spend as little time with him as possible.

[Katy]

7 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I don’t doubt that it exists, but I also don’t doubt that some parents have very valid reasons for being very wary of their children having a relationship with the other parent. In the case of Brad and Angelina, there have been media rumors of his problems with drugs and alcohol, as well as anger management issues. Are the rumors true? I have no idea. But if they are, I can’t say I would blame Angelina for being extra-protective of her children and preferring that they spend as little time with him as possible.

 

This.  Although I'm suspicious she didn't know about those things before she had children with him, since the rumors have existed since before he married Jennifer Aniston.

[Catwoman]

25 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

This.  Although I'm suspicious she didn't know about those things before she had children with him, since the rumors have existed since before he married Jennifer Aniston.

 

Well, she’d had a lot of negative publicity of her own, too, but she appears to have changed a lot once she became a mother, so maybe she assumed Brad would change his ways, too — and they did seem like a happy family for quite a while. I really don’t know. People make a lot of assumptions when they fall in love, and they also sometimes believe that their love will change the other person and somehow cure them of their bad habits and negative qualities.

 

[hippiemamato3]

At 16 I firmly believe kids should be able to decide with whom they want to live and when/how often to visit the other parent.

[umsami]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Well I have been on both sides of this.....it nearly destroyed my dh when his then 15 refused to see him and the mom and step dad actively encouraged that and even more aggressive rude treatment of dh.  And then I have my ds who hated visitation with a passion.  When he was 14 his dad told him he was not going to force him anymore and that ds should come visit him when he wanted.  Well, 14 year old ds was like 'whoo hoo freedom!!!'  I don't believe he would have EVER wanted to see his dad again.  In spite of all that XH did to me and to ds that resulted in our family being broken, xh is still a human being, a father, who needs a little kindness.  So I came up with the dinner twice a month plan and I insisted ds go.  Now at 18, when ds legally wouldn't have to, he still meets his dad for dinner twice a month.  So no, I don't believe a 16 year old should get to make the decision to see a parent or not. 

I'm going to tuck away your insistence on dinner twice/month as an idea for my eldest who has a horrid relationship with his Dad (even though his Dad is now trying to mend that.) Thanks ❤️ 

[hippiemamato3]

1 minute ago, umsami said:

I'm going to tuck away your insistence on dinner twice/month as an idea for my eldest who has a horrid relationship with his Dad (even though his Dad is now trying to mend that.) Thanks ❤️ 

 

My son was finally freed from his father at age 14.5 when he was able to speak to a therapist who testified in court. Dinner twice a month maybe would have been ok, but it's been a year with no contact and DS has never been healthier. 

[Janeway]

I always had the impression she was just trying to alienate Brad Pitt. 

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, Janeway said:

I always had the impression she was just trying to alienate Brad Pitt. 

 

Are you saying that you think Brad Pitt is just an innocent victim in all of this? What makes you think that?

[Scarlett]

4 hours ago, umsami said:

I'm going to tuck away your insistence on dinner twice/month as an idea for my eldest who has a horrid relationship with his Dad (even though his Dad is now trying to mend that.) Thanks ❤️ 

Thank you.  It has been successful I think.  Ds still grumbles sometimes but he always goes.  Xh rarely cancels.....I told him that when we made the plan that Ds needed to see commitment from him...,he needed to trust xh would not miss and  it would build some security.,

[Bluegoat]

I think it's often difficult for parents in a divorce not to give a bad impression of the other parent to the kids.  It takes a lot of discipline and effort.  People find it easy to imagine Jolie lacks that kind of self-discipline and reflection - she's not really shown it in the past much, including in romantic relationships.  

[Ravin]

2 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

I think it's often difficult for parents in a divorce not to give a bad impression of the other parent to the kids.  It takes a lot of discipline and effort.  People find it easy to imagine Jolie lacks that kind of self-discipline and reflection - she's not really shown it in the past much, including in romantic relationships.  

 

I think it's also very common that the other parent is the one giving the kid the bad impression all by themselves. No matter how silent Parent A is, when Parent B repeatedly breaks promises, cancels on them, or sends them back to Parent A earlier than usual because Parent B, Parent B's spouse, and step/half siblings want "family time" without child (a complaint one of DD's friends brought up recently), etc. etc....Parent A doesn't have to say a thing for child to develop their own opinion of Parent B, and at quite a bit younger an age than 16. Parent A shouldn't be required from giving the child honest space to vent those feelings. Walking that line without accusations of alienating Parent B can be hard. I have several friends who do it and I don't envy them the task.

[nixpix5]

I think some of this stems back from behaviors that cropped up early in their relationship. Angelina, while it appears she is controlling with Brad, is reported to be the antithesis of this with the kids. She allows unrestrained freedoms to the kids that apparently lead to behavior issues that Brad was not OK with. He then had to step in as the boundary holder and disciplinarian. I believe due to Angelina's own upbringing, she views limits and boundaries as abuse. This has come out through a myriad of her past relationships and not just with Brad. I am not saying he is a saint, but triangulation within a family can lead to kids siding with the more passive, easier and "fun" parent. The parent with limits gets iced out. 

The other piece from what I have read previously, is that Angelina felt Brad treated Vivienne, Knox and Shiloh differently that Maddox, Pax and Zahara. She is particularly protective of Maddox due to Billy Bob Thornton's desertion of them early on in the adoption. I think Maddox became her world and altered her in a way no other relationship could. 

I am speculating through the pieces of years of reading about her but I think she has a broken filter with which she looks at relationships due to her mother isolating her from her dad and allowing her total freedom, followed by dying and Angelina placing her on a pedastool. 

[SKL]

It bugs me when people leak sensitive info about those kids.  They do not belong to us, I don't care how famous their parents are.

[GinaPagnato]

Honestly, I think she has no use for a man right now and probably figures neither do her kids. She's very independent and seems to be highly focused on doing what *she* thinks is best for her kids. She can more than provide for them financially and in terms of life experiences, so she may be thinking that's all they really need. Since she has no more time for Brad, possibly she doesn't want to be bothered facilitating his relationship with the kids.

Of course, the courts will have a say about that if the other parent doesn't roll over an accept it.

 

[Faith-manor]

Well, none of us really know what is going on. However, we do know that there was camera footage of the altercation on the plane which caused all of this to come to a head. While he did not physically accost Maddox, the 15 year old, he'd been quite verbally abusive to one of the younger children and to Angelina - he had gotten drunk on the plane - and when Maddox tried to tell his dad off, Brad went verbally nasty on Maddox. This is why the FBI and CPS were involved and Brad was disembarked from the plane separate of his family - and that wouldn't have happened unless the crew was concerned for the kids -  and allowed no visitation while the investigation took place. It was then announced that he only had limited, supervised visitation, and some nearly two years latter, the judge is JUST lifting the order for a therapist to be present to supervise. That right there says a lot.

In May 2017, Brad openly admitted in a GQ interview that he was a substance abuser, cigarettes, alcohol (a lot of alcohol), and marijuana, and that he was now sober. He used the word "sober". He didn't say he made health changes, or scaled back or whatever, but that he was now sober. That's the kind of statement that people who are in Al-Anon or other types of treatment make. That says to me that it was severe, and especially since generally what we are willing to admit to in public is the sanitized version of what went on in private, I personally think it means it had gotten pretty bad.

Trying to protect her kids from him, and not being too keen on them spending time with a verbally abusive, alcoholic should not be held against her as alienation. AND Maddox was 15 when the straw that broke the camel's back occurred, and directed at him personally. I know how boys that age think. He's hurting, and angry, and fearful, and the broken trust is real. I can easily imagine him smack talking his dad to his younger siblings.

So, yes...maybe she has kind of poisoned the kids against him. Maybe she has crossed some lines. But then again, maybe not. We won't ever know unless Maddox turns 18 and decides to give his perspective or Pax or one of the other children. We just know that at this point, the judge is comfortable with the kids moving forward with unsupervised visitation and wants her to not interfere with that. I would imagine that given a licensed therapist was in the room for their visits, this person issued a report that said he/she felt this was healthy for the children at this time. Angelina lives with them, so her take on that might be very different and voiced that thus the admonishment from the judge, and it seems like whenever a judge has to decide, pretty much the kids lose no matter what. There isn't any way for something like this to be done "healthy". Healthy left the building along with Elvis a long, long time ago.

Part and parcel of this is that she is shooting Malificent 2 in London this summer, and the arrangements had already been made for the tutors and staff to accompany so the children would be with her since it is for quite a few weeks. He is not being awarded any kind of custody, and this ruling comes within days of needing to leave. So now she has to figure out how to manage the back and forth with Brad and kids from London, or re-nig on her contract and get sued, or.....we all know that these kinds of situations are tough on normal working people to figure out, so it has to be 10 times worse when traveling out of the country or work. She is probably really unhappy with trying to juggle this instead of having the children with her for the summer as planned.

Though my opinion on what he should do is not here or there obviously, I do think that if he wants to demonstrate being a fit dad, he ought to go to London, get an apartment, have a friend whom she trusts stay with him, and exercise his visitation there. Make some memories. There are so many things he could do with his kids to forge some positive memories, and yet make her feel like he can be trusted with the children. If it upends a movie shoot for him or costs him a contract, so be it. There are consequences to being the aggressor, and if he were to gracefully accept those consequences and turn his own life upside down for the benefit of his kids and earning their trust, I would think it would show he is sincere.

[Bluegoat]

6 hours ago, nixpix5 said:

I think some of this stems back from behaviors that cropped up early in their relationship. Angelina, while it appears she is controlling with Brad, is reported to be the antithesis of this with the kids. She allows unrestrained freedoms to the kids that apparently lead to behavior issues that Brad was not OK with. He then had to step in as the boundary holder and disciplinarian. I believe due to Angelina's own upbringing, she views limits and boundaries as abuse. This has come out through a myriad of her past relationships and not just with Brad. I am not saying he is a saint, but triangulation within a family can lead to kids siding with the more passive, easier and "fun" parent. The parent with limits gets iced out. 

The other piece from what I have read previously, is that Angelina felt Brad treated Vivienne, Knox and Shiloh differently that Maddox, Pax and Zahara. She is particularly protective of Maddox due to Billy Bob Thornton's desertion of them early on in the adoption. I think Maddox became her world and altered her in a way no other relationship could. 

I am speculating through the pieces of years of reading about her but I think she has a broken filter with which she looks at relationships due to her mother isolating her from her dad and allowing her total freedom, followed by dying and Angelina placing her on a pedastool. 

 

Was BBT involved in that adoption?  I remember at the time noticing that the news reports said she had adopted a child, and I thought that was pretty odd since she had a husband.  I wasn't sure if he was unwilling, she knew he was unreliable or the reports were off somehow.  It struck me as odd that someone married would be allowed to adopt without their spouse being part of it.

[nixpix5]

39 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Was BBT involved in that adoption?  I remember at the time noticing that the news reports said she had adopted a child, and I thought that was pretty odd since she had a husband.  I wasn't sure if he was unwilling, she knew he was unreliable or the reports were off somehow.  It struck me as odd that someone married would be allowed to adopt without their spouse being part of it.

I don't think he was even though they were married. It is really an odd situation. He exited not long after so maybe they were already planning to separate. 

[Janeway]

On 6/13/2018 at 10:21 PM, Catwoman said:

 

Are you saying that you think Brad Pitt is just an innocent victim in all of this? What makes you think that?

There was stuff early on that I saw..I cannot recall exactly what it was. But I used to work for a domestic violence center and the way everything happened on that flight early on, and how her oldest, who had been just her child for many years and he only adopted in recent years, admissions to what that teenager had done and how Jolie reacted to it and went off on calling it child abuse and made it clear she wanted to keep Brad from the kids. I don't have time to look for the articles, but go looking for articles (stay away from tabloids) going back to the beginning of this whole thing...there was a flight, I think they had stopped off in MN, and details that came out back then. And then watching how she was alienating Brad and being open with wanting to keep him from the kids and so on. Also, I am not saying he is a completely 100% innocent victim in all this, but he and the kids have been victims. Angelina seems to prefer to be the number one parent with the kids and was the only parent for some time and I do not think co-parenting is something she is good at or has much desire to do.

[Scarlett]

19 hours ago, Janeway said:

There was stuff early on that I saw..I cannot recall exactly what it was. But I used to work for a domestic violence center and the way everything happened on that flight early on, and how her oldest, who had been just her child for many years and he only adopted in recent years, admissions to what that teenager had done and how Jolie reacted to it and went off on calling it child abuse and made it clear she wanted to keep Brad from the kids. I don't have time to look for the articles, but go looking for articles (stay away from tabloids) going back to the beginning of this whole thing...there was a flight, I think they had stopped off in MN, and details that came out back then. And then watching how she was alienating Brad and being open with wanting to keep him from the kids and so on. Also, I am not saying he is a completely 100% innocent victim in all this, but he and the kids have been victims. Angelina seems to prefer to be the number one parent with the kids and was the only parent for some time and I do not think co-parenting is something she is good at or has much desire to do.

She adopted the oldest one with BBT but before it was all over BBT was completely out of the picture.  Then she and Brad got together in 2004.  In 2005 she adopted the second oldest.  Late in the year of 2006 Brad adopted those two and then they had a baby together in 2007. 

I think they both share some blame for how this entire relationship has played out starting from the time he was married to someone else.  Unfortunately 6 children are paying the price more than anyone.