How long did you remain unstructured?

[Sarah0000]

I have three kids, oldest is six, and I know at some point I'll need to have a more structured school day. I'm thinking of trying now in preparation for first grade in the fall. Its probably best to start with one thing for a few months until it becomes habit, right? And I'm talking about structured time during the day not necessarily types of curricula. We already use formal curricula for many things but I don't schedule it. Sometimes I have something planned or sometimes I'll just have him pick whatever in a workbook, there's no consistency as far as order of subjects or when he does what.

So what do you find is the most structured time of day or type of thing in your house, especially if you have littles? I'm guessing something with the least moving parts and the least preparation required? I am considering recitation with Living Memory for this purpose.

Thoughts and experiences?

[sweet2ndchance]

We had to have structure from the time my second oldest son was an infant. That boy thrives on a predictable schedule and his world falls apart without it. So for him, school just kind of fell into the same kind of routine. He liked to do the same things in the same predictable order every day.

My other kids didn't need that much structure We could be much more laid back and just have a list of things we needed to accomplish for the day and do them in whatever order suited them that day. I would just allot a set amount of time for things that needed one on one time with me and most of the time I would let them choose if we did math or phonics or language arts or what ever else still needed to be done during that time. Then we would cross that off the list and do the next thing.

Even in middle school, I would just give my kids a list of the assignments they needed to get done and they were responsible for completing them in any order they wanted as long as they were done by the deadline.

I tried a few times to institute more rigid structure, like math from 9am to 9:45am, science from 10 - 10:45am, but that never worked out for us. I always felt like I was watching the clock and when we found a rabbit trail that caught their interest I couldn't bring myself to say 'ok time to put that away. It's time for the next subject.' We homeschool so that we can chase rabbit trails and being too structured seemed to get in the way of that so other than having my second oldest do the same subjects in the same order everyday to satisfy his need for predictability, we never were terribly structured and we were still able to get everything done most days.

 

[Targhee]

We were pretty "shoot from the hip" until I had 2 homeschooling and two youngers.  I needed the routine because there were too many moving pieces for my mental calculations each day (and DH works variable shifts including nights and weekends so that was extra wonkiness).  

It worked for me to build the day around meals.  For example after breakfast we do math, after lunch we do History, etc.  It also was how we structured chores - e.g. after lunch we you sweep the floor and brother wipes down the table, or before breakfast you need to have your morning routine done.

[Lecka]

I think if you are fitting things in well, your child transitions to schoolwork well, and things like that are smooth, there’s not an arbitrary time.

I know I have overwhelmed other parents with having very high structure, but it was totally necessary and in response to needs of my kids and for us to have a smooth day.  

I wouldn’t go to an effort just for the sake of it, personally.  At least I don’t think so.  

[Lecka]

Also a positive of lower structure, is that kids can have more opportunity to make and carry out plans.  That is really valuable.  There can be opportunity within a higher structure, too, but I think there is more natural opportunity with lower structure.  

Overall I think if your kids can roll with things and can manage their time well, those are things to value.  

And then if there are issues there, more structure can be really helpful.

I think just know your purpose.  

[EKS]

I was always structured with my older son, in the sense that we had lessons at a certain time every day, because we brought him home after first grade, so that just seemed to be how it should be.

But with the younger one, I started working with him informally when he was 2yo.  Very informally--as in five minutes here and there as he wanted it.  The time on task got longer as he got older, but he could always refuse up until his 5th birthday.  That was when I decided to start kindergarten work with him, and so I told him about a month ahead of time that we would be having lessons together (lasting an hour or less) every weekday just the way his brother did.  And then I enforced it and enforced it and enforced it.

 

[Slache]

Trying to introduce more structured todays for simpler tomorrows has always backfired here. The structure has come when needed, meeting my students where they're at. 

[Ellie]

4 hours ago, Sarah0000 said:

I have three kids, oldest is six, and I know at some point I'll need to have a more structured school day. I'm thinking of trying now in preparation for first grade in the fall. Its probably best to start with one thing for a few months until it becomes habit, right? And I'm talking about structured time during the day not necessarily types of curricula. We already use formal curricula for many things but I don't schedule it. Sometimes I have something planned or sometimes I'll just have him pick whatever in a workbook, there's no consistency as far as order of subjects or when he does what.

So what do you find is the most structured time of day or type of thing in your house, especially if you have littles? I'm guessing something with the least moving parts and the least preparation required? I am considering recitation with Living Memory for this purpose.

Thoughts and experiences?

My children were probably, oh, 9 and 12 when I did a very formal structured school day. We lasted until Thanksgiving. ?

I took my older dd out of a private Christian school during Easter break of first grade (April 1982). I was convinced that she was burned out, and I determined not to do Anything until, well, until. :-) It was 18 months before I felt she was back to herself and we could start doing Official School Stuff.

Initially, I was mentored by a neighbor, who was a staunch unschooler. She was exactly what I needed at that time. But because she was a neighbor (and she had three children older than mine), I was at her house almost every day, bless her heart. Another friend who lived nearby introduced me to *her* neighbor, who had been hsing one child. Together we started a multi-age Camp Fire club in the fall and started earning badges and whatnot. In January we sold candy, and in February we broke up. Long pathetic story. Suddenly I was all alone, all day, just my two dc and me. It was marvelous. ❤️ 

For the next few months we just did our own thing, but eventually I realized that we were not quite as organized as we might be, and so I came up with a routine:

Monday, Tuesday: Official School Days. We stayed home. No errands, no crafty things for me, no appointments, nada. I put any Official School Stuff on the kitchen table, where dds could work on it...or not. But because we were staying home, sometimes they were bored enough to do it. :-)

Wednesday: Library. Every week we went to the library--sometimes to the one right down the hill from our house, but often to one across town which was much bigger. Dds could check out as many books as they wanted or none at all, but all books had to be returned the following week whether they had been read or not (the only way to avoid overdue fines!).

Thursday: Field trip. We left the house every week for a field trip. Sometimes it was something that went along with something we studied, sometimes not. Or maybe we worked on a Camp Fire badge. Or I had seen a newspaper article about it. Or whatever. Every.single.week. Mostly it was just the three of us, but eventually, when there were more hsers, I invited some to go with us.

Friday: Clean house. All the laundry, clean the bathroom, dust and vacuum, everything. That left weekends free of cleaning, we all had clean undies for church on Sunday, and on Monday, we didn't have to do anything except...stay home.

Some time over the next few months, maybe during the summer? or the next fall? I don't remember, because long ago. :-) I heard about some hsers who were going to meet at a park, and so I went. It was amazing. First.park.day.ever. We agreed to meet once a month. And then we found out that there was actually a fairly well organized county-wide group going on, with a county-wide park day, and we started going to that, too, so two Fridays a month, which messed with my Clean House Friday. And then there were field trips, and I wanted to go on those, but they weren't always on Thursday, so that messed with the other days.

And one day I realized that I was just messed up. So I asked the dc which park day they liked, and we went to that one. And I only went on field trips with the support group if it was on Thursday or it was totally awesome and I couldn't possibly do it with just the three of us.

In 1987, when the dc were 9 and 12, we moved to the other end of the state, and apparently I lost my mind. That fall I started doing Every Day Just Like School, with a book for every single subject. At Thanksgiving, I put the books away, which I had always done, but instead of picking them up again in January, I just didn't. Some time around the end of February the dc began looking at me out the corners of their eyes, and finally one of them asked if we were going to do school again. I said no, and they heaved sighs of relief and went on about their business. :-)

The next summer Mary Harrington started a Latin class in her home, and my older dd participated. In August I started doing Vol. 2 KONOS with both dds, the first time I had used something structured which required planning. Mary's 14yo daughter began taking classes at the community college; the following January (1989) my older started, as well (she had her 14th birthday in class). I took the class with her (we both earned A's), and I finished KONOS with younger dd. From that point on, older dd did community college instead of anything at home. Younger dd did the same thing, although she went with me for a year to a small Christian school that I started at my church. And eventually, Mary Harrington co-authored "Latin in the Christian Trivium," which some people here have used. :-)

Our school year was January through December. Younger dd didn't "start first grade." When she was five-ish (and she was just four when I took her sister out of school)  I began teaching her to read with Spalding, and added some Official School Stuff on the kitchen table. :-)

For me, having a home routine was much more  important than having a formal school schedule when the children were young; the home routine helped develop the Official School Routine when the dc were older (not necessarily in September).

[Sarah0000]

Thank you all for your thoughts, especially the suggestion to identify my purpose. I had to think about that for a bit. My primary purpose is to more regularly do those things which seem to fall by the way side but which particularly benefit from near-daily practice, which in our case is foreign language and memory work. A secondary purpose is to streamline read alouds with both kids because I'm not doing enough reading aloud geared toward my younger. 

[2_girls_mommy]

I agree with the home routine being what is best to structure your school around. I started  very structured. I homeschooled from the beginning. I had two kids close together and a husband who worked long hours all of the timeI had no relatives around to help me. I needed structure. We had set nap times, set bedtimes, set bathtimes, etc. As we started school (most structured around 1st grade too I believe,) it fit right into our day. We started every day with Sesame Street and Little House on the Prairie back then after breakfast. By the time breakfast and our morning shows were over and we were dressed and ready for the day, we started school around 11:00. We worked for about an hour and a half. Then we had lunch. Then the kids had outside time every day for 30 minutes. After outside time it was read aloud time or read to themselves time/rest time. Kids rested in bed for an hour and a half to two hours. Then after that we had more outside time and our afternoon school subject. If it was winter, we just went straight to our afternoon subject. If it was good weather and kids were all outside playing, they usually played with friends for an hour or so, then we did our afternoon subject. Mon was art, Tues/Thurs were SOTW, Wed was science.  Once or twice a week we did a "field trip" in the morning instead of our morning shows. We would do library storytimes or go to the zoo for a couple of hours before lunch. Then we would do our table work when we got home. 

As my kids got even older, I had one that really needed to keep structure. I got more structured as far as writing out a daily school schedule (math at 9:00, English at 9:45, etc.) for her around 3rd grade. That was actually good for me too as I needed to figure out how to do individual stuff with two at that time. I needed one on one with both which meant they needed things they could do on their own while I worked with the other. Then I added a babysitting child and eventually had my youngest, so the detailed schedule was kept for a "perfect day" scenario. But we never had perfect days. But at least we had goals and aimed for them. ?

Now we are less structured. We have a long morning time together each day. Then we think about what is going on each day and what is most important and start with that. Like if my dds have a heavy week's load of science for a co-op class that week, we will make sure we focus on that daily. History is something that can be put off a day and can be read the next day unles a paper or project is due, etc. Math and Latin are daily things like that... But not in any particular order. I will work with whomever needs it at what time, but at the ages of mine, they don't necessarily need me every day even in the subjects I teach.  We often work very hard on a subject for a day or two, and then they have a good start and can work independently for a couple of days with only me checking in. But then I can spend that day doing my teaching in another subject. 

[....]

14 hours ago, Sarah0000 said:

I have three kids, oldest is six, and I know at some point I'll need to have a more structured school day. I'm thinking of trying now in preparation for first grade in the fall. Its probably best to start with one thing for a few months until it becomes habit, right? And I'm talking about structured time during the day not necessarily types of curricula. We already use formal curricula for many things but I don't schedule it. Sometimes I have something planned or sometimes I'll just have him pick whatever in a workbook, there's no consistency as far as order of subjects or when he does what.

So what do you find is the most structured time of day or type of thing in your house, especially if you have littles?

 

Are you talking about having a specific time/day and plan for each subject?  If so, we don't even do that in high school.  I do have a list of subjects that I expect us to get done each day (and the list changes depending on the day).  But, it's more of a routine.  We just do the next thing each day.  I do create checklists for anyone 8th grade and higher, but they are more like a list of tasks (like read pgs 22-43 or do lesson 12).  But, with 5 kids, I juggle so many things that there's no way I could have set times for everything.

For the younger set of kids, I just gather their stuff on the kitchen counter and we work through their pile together.  The younger set uses My Father's World, so a lot of times, I don't even know what we're doing that day until I open the Teacher's Manual.

If chaos erupts because of the Toddler Tornado, I usually get one of the teens to get him playing with his toys in his room or take him outside to play (or sometimes we can get him to watch a movie).

As far as time of day they do schoolwork...  DD13 always wakes up very early and comes downstairs and works.  I work with the younger kids in the morning (dd10 is always done by lunch).  The older teens just work on stuff throughout the day and evening.  They'll bring their schoolwork with them when we go somewhere, etc.

Not sure if that helped.  I guess we're just not very structured people.  

[Lori D.]

I had to have a checklist for school and a general life routine for ME from the start, partly to make sure school happened, because DSs were a handful, and DH worked 24-hour shifts on the fire dept, so I was a single parent on top of being the sole homeschooler for about 1/3 of the time. Also, for completely different reasons, both DSs did MUCH better if had a predictable routine. So, breakfast and a few light chores first thing in the morning, and then move straight into school.

However, we eased into the day by having a good long together time of a lot of fun odds and ends and a short read aloud, and then moved into more "formal" seatwork types of things. In the early elementary grades, we would get core subjects (Math and LA) done first, and then do History, Geography, and Science -- not always all 3 every day. Because DSs were just 1 grade apart, in the early grades, everyone needed help with almost everything, we included a 30-minute educational computer game time for one DS while the other had 1-on-1 time with me, and then they'd switch. I also gave DSs 2-3 "fun pages" (mazes, very simple word searches, simple logic puzzles, find the hidden pictures puzzles, simple math puzzles, etc) each day that they could work on solo while waiting for me to finish with the brother.

The nice thing about early elementary grades is that we were done by lunch. Those time estimates of roughly an hour per grade are pretty accurate, and when you add in doing a second student, and all the messing around time that DSs managed to insert into the day (lol), the 2 hours of 2nd grade, and 1.5 hours of 1st grade done at the same time, took about 3 hours. And then the rest of the day was open.

And, as you suggested, OP, we also eased into our school year. Day 1 was about taking the annual "first day of school" photos, unveiling the exciting new books and materials for the year, sharpening pencils, cleaning desks, starting a fun read aloud, and then heading out for ice cream or a fun outing. Week 1, we started with about 3 subjects, like math, reading and phonics and science. Week 2, we added in 2-3 more subjects, like handwriting (copywork), history, and geography. Week 3, we added in the rest of our subjects, like grammar and spelling.

Other than Math, Reading, Spelling, and Writing, we did not do every subject every day, so that gave us flexibility. As I said, it was more of a checklist for me, to shoot for covering XX amount of pages, or do YY science experiments in the week.

I didn't have a toddler while also homeschooling my close-in-age DSs, so hopefully others will be able to help you there! Have fun getting started on your homeschooling adventures! : ) Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Lori D.]

17 hours ago, Sarah0000 said:

A secondary purpose is to streamline read alouds with both kids because I'm not doing enough reading aloud geared toward my younger. 

Read alouds can come at any time of the day. I read to DSs when they were little and in the bathtub together, and we always read aloud at night before bed, up through middle school. We also read aloud after lunch as a way of easing into afternoon school work when DSs were in late elementary  grades and our school days were longer and took more than just the morning. 

You can do audio books during breakfast or lunch, or while driving to/from events or appointments. Children can also listen to their own special audio books with headphones during schooling while you work 1-on-1 with siblings, or as part of an after-lunch mandatory quiet time for everyone.

What about getting others to read? Once your oldest child is reading well in a few years, he can read to the youngest, or both younger siblings. And what about dad? Can he read a special dad read-aloud book to the kids several evenings a week?

[Rachel]

We’ve had structure to our day from infancy. Sleep, breakfast, read, nap, lunch, play, read, nap, etc. Reading has always been part of our routine around age 5 as I was planning for kindergarten I began to be more thoughtful about my book choices. Partly because I began to learn about better quality books around the same time and discovered books like “Read Aloud Handbook” and “Honey for a Child’s Heart.”

As far as a school routine we have never had a strict schedule but more of a predictable routine beginning with kindergarten. The kids know we will eat breakfast, practice piano, do morning time, then table work. That looks a little different for my 10 year old than my 5 year old. There is definitely ebb and flow to how this works during different cycles of life.

As far as read alouds for the youngest, I have started assigning the bigger kids to read to him at different points in the day, mostly when I need to work one on one with an older kid. We do read alouds in the morning, at night with dad, and also usually have an audiobook in the car. I have unintentionally usually picked one that is geared more for the youngest. 

[Slache]

47 minutes ago, Margaret in CO said:

I think 99% of behavior problems could be helped by being tired by the end of the day. ?

Amen!

[Sarah0000]

I made a couple changes the last few days. One, ODS has one simple chore to do each morning after breakfast. This is to help out but also I figure chores are a better way to learn to manage his own responsibilities rather than start with school work. Two, when I give him something simple that I know he can do on his own but he doesn't finish (from goofing off not because it's too hard) before I come back from putting the baby to nap, then I just move on to the things that require my presence and he'll have to finish his independent work afterwards. 

As far as reading aloud, the problem isn't finding the time but having too many lists I'm trying to get through now that my preschooler has started. We already do morning and bedtime read alouds, often poetry at lunch, audible at night and sometime throughout the day. But there just isn't enough time to do all the preschool reading lists I did when I had just ODS now that I have two, so I'm going to go through and pick the best ones for read alouds. Everything else will have to be independent reading. I can *try* to have ODS read to MDS but it might devolve into wrestling. We'll see.

[kbutton]

On 5/22/2018 at 11:51 AM, Lori D. said:

And, as you suggested, OP, we also eased into our school year. Day 1 was about taking the annual "first day of school" photos, unveiling the exciting new books and materials for the year, sharpening pencils, cleaning desks, starting a fun read aloud, and then heading out for ice cream or a fun outing. Week 1, we started with about 3 subjects, like math, reading and phonics and science. Week 2, we added in 2-3 more subjects, like handwriting (copywork), history, and geography. Week 3, we added in the rest of our subjects, like grammar and spelling.

Other than Math, Reading, Spelling, and Writing, we did not do every subject every day, so that gave us flexibility. As I said, it was more of a checklist for me, to shoot for covering XX amount of pages, or do YY science experiments in the week.

1

We start our year this way, and then it trickles to an end this way too. 

[Rachel]

10 hours ago, Sarah0000 said:

As far as reading aloud, the problem isn't finding the time but having too many lists I'm trying to get through now that my preschooler has started. We already do morning and bedtime read alouds, often poetry at lunch, audible at night and sometime throughout the day. But there just isn't enough time to do all the preschool reading lists I did when I had just ODS now that I have two, so I'm going to go through and pick the best ones for read alouds. Everything else will have to be independent reading. I can *try* to have ODS read to MDS but it might devolve into wrestling. We'll see.

I have three kids 10, 8, and 5. We have spent this year going back and doing read alouds that we did when the 5 year old was too young to remember. I do our read aloud time together, I don’t worry about separate ones with each child individually. There have been times when I have been able to do that, but it isn’t the norm. I do pick out picture books the youngest will enjoy and I do read those to everyone. A lot of mornings he is up first so I’ll read a picture book to him then. Or instead of two chapters from our read aloud I read a picture book meant for him and then our read aloud. Yes, the 5 year old’s experience is different from his big brother’s, but it doesn’t mean it is worse. We will never be able to read all the good books before our kids grow up, there are too many and more are written all the time. I guess what I’m saying is give yourself some grace and keep doing the best you can.  You will start to figure out how things work best for your family. 

[Carrie12345]

18 hours ago, Sarah0000 said:

 

As far as reading aloud, the problem isn't finding the time but having too many lists I'm trying to get through now that my preschooler has started. We already do morning and bedtime read alouds, often poetry at lunch, audible at night and sometime throughout the day. But there just isn't enough time to do all the preschool reading lists I did when I had just ODS now that I have two, so I'm going to go through and pick the best ones for read alouds. Everything else will have to be independent reading. I can *try* to have ODS read to MDS but it might devolve into wrestling. We'll see.

I will promise you that you're kids will not suffer if you "only" do the reading you're already doing. ?  I can assure you that I didn't do anywhere near that much reading past my first kid, and they're just fine.  I've seen my 7yo grab books of the shelves from our earlier days and sit down to read both favorites and titles we never managed to get to.  He has not suffered for my inability to get through a 5th round of Little Bear's adventures or Caps for Sale.

As to your title question, I got less and less structured as time went on.  Any time I tried to impose schedules or firm routines, most of the kids and I were all miserable and nobody wanted to learn.  My oldest was the only one who managed better with clearer expectations.

 

[Cake and Pi]

We never have and likely never will keep a set schedule with specific times etc. for the day.  What we do do is mostly stick to our daily check lists, though, and we have some general routines in place, like chores before breakfast, audio books in the car, and read alouds with Natural Calm just before bed.  I've done it this way since my oldest was 5 or 6 and my second son (temporary) joined the HS ranks.  We have to keep our schedule very flexible because we have various therapies on different days and unpredictable rounds through doctor and specialist appointments. 

Lesson planning wise, I keep a list of subjects that must be covered each week.  Then about a week in advance I plan out what I want to use for each subject.  Some things we follow pre-made plans, like the BYL schedule for history and lit.  For other things I pick resources myself and write out approximately what I expect us to cover, but I use pencil because it's really more of an outline and almost always changes at least a little bit.  I'm okay if we go down some rabbit trails as long as we're accomplishing real learning.  For example, my DS3 took the last month-ish off from RightStart, so last week and the week before (because we did two half weeks) I planned to do Beast on 2 days and RS on the other 2 days.  One RS lesson was about cube nets and the other introduced isometric drawings.  Well, we never got to the isometric drawings.  DS3 loved the net activity so much that I pulled out BA 5A and he read the shapes chapter.  Then the next morning he climbed onto the table and found the RS geometry panels I had stored up in the cabinet from back when I tried to do RS G with DS1 last year.  I woke up to find he'd put together a 2ft diameter icosidodecahedron and a "Minecraft treasure chest" that opened and closed, lol.  So that day's math was more on geometric solids and nets.  I'll just move the other RS lesson to a day next week.

I keep the week outline in my personal binder with other teacher materials/guides/answer keys.  The boys each have a composition notebook, and each night I take a spread in the notebook to write out all the lessons and goals for the following day.  I also put in appointments, activities, therapies, play dates, and all the other things we'll do, but those I add about a week in advance so they can feel prepared.  I update my weekly outline as we go so that I have a record of attendance and how we spent our time.

I'll also add that it's totally normal to skip out on doing some (a lot?) of the things you did with your oldest with the younger kids.  My DS1 went to baby story time at the library every single week.  DS2 went like 3 times ever, and DS3 and DS4 never went at all.  DS1 and I read together sooooooo much.  I read with DS3 so little that I my aunt knew 6 months before I did that he could read.  Yeah, and that one probably doesn't even get me a bad mom award because it's comparatively mellow and not so bad in the grand scheme of things.  The younger ones may get less one-on-one parent attention, but they benefit from more experienced parents and rich sibling interactions.  It all works out.

[Farrar]

Another vote for routines over schedules. Routines are good. Schedules are hard to keep up. I feel like with a routine there's so much less pressure. It's like, oh, I forgot to do X this week, but whatever, we'll do it next week when it's time again. Or, oh, we didn't do X in the afternoon today, but we'll be sure not to skip it tomorrow. With a schedule, there's something about when you've missed whatever X is where it's stressful and throws off the whole thing. Oh no, we didn't get to X, where will it fit in and what will we do?

So we've always had routines, even before we formally started school. But we've really swung between more and less rigor and between being more and less child led. We had a lot of top down structure when my kids were little. We are more child-led now. I guess - like others have said - don't envision it like a straight line from being less structured/rigorous/top down to being more structured/rigorous/top down. In reality, I think you swing between these different things as kids grow and change. I mean, we were less top down in the early grades because you have to learn to read and write and my kids didn't have a concept of what there even was to learn about. We were more interest-led later once they had a sense of what they might be interested in learning about. At times when growing up has been hard, we've been less rigorous, then tried to do a little catching up when times were more smooth sailing.