finally did my dna tests . . .

[gardenmom5]

two.   ancestry, and 23&me.  lots of spit.

 

ancestry's kit is much more user friendly.

 

I only ordered them thanksgiving weekend . . . . If I'd done it right away - they'd be getting close to coming back instead of looking at march.

[Tess in the Burbs]

I've been debating on doing this. Debating between the two. I look forward to hearing which one you prefer

[PeterPan]

Oh that's funny, I thought 23&me's kit was much easier than the Genes4Good kit. With that one you had to add the preservative yourself. I thought the setup for 23&me was pretty slick with the stab through closure, the presealing box, the code to register, etc. 

 

Yeah, I did ours (well ds') as soon as the kit came. My dd dawdled so hers will be later. I figured the wait would go up. So now they're saying March? Ouch. I'm expecting our results the end of January-ish. I'm expecting to learn we're part rooster or something, I don't know. Don't know if it will be mundane or interesting, lol. I mainly did it to get the SNPs to submit for health stuff. But who knows, might learn something.

[gardenmom5]

I've been debating on doing this. Debating between the two. I look forward to hearing which one you prefer

 

depends why you're doing it.

 

I want the genealogy - but I also want the health.

I'm sure I'll run them both through other sites that don't test - but will run your dna through their sites.

 

My ND has a health site she uses, separate from 23&Me.

[displace]

DH did 23 and me and said there were 1,000 questions!

 

It’s giving me second thoughts about doing it 😆

[creekland]

We did 23 and Me right after New Year's Day.  They were our Christmas presents to all of our boys and ourselves, chosen after checking with them and getting an immediate "SURE!"

 

I'm just as curious about health as genealogy, maybe more, esp due to the way our family seems to be odd with what affects us (and doesn't).

 

There are more than 1000 questions, but those are all optional pending upon how much you want to participate in their research.  Since I'm a science person and love research, I answered them all.  Not everyone does.  They gave percentages along the way ("You've completed more than x% of participants.")  If I had thought more about it, I'd have committed that percentage to memory, but I know it wasn't close to 100% so anyone choosing not to do some or all of the questions is not alone.

[Storygirl]

I'm interested in doing this, too. And I'm not sure I really want to. I see that 23 and Me tests for the Alzheimer's gene. I'm certain that my family carries the gene. My mother and grandmother and grandmother's cousins have all ended up with it. So it wouldn't be a surprise. However, it would also be devastating to me to know for sure. My mother has no biological grandchildren (all adopted or steps), so my generation is the last to carry her genes. I'm not sure that my siblings want to know their future, either.

 

It would be interesting to do it for ancestry, though. Both for me and for my children, who were all adopted.

[creekland]

I'm interested in doing this, too. And I'm not sure I really want to. I see that 23 and Me tests for the Alzheimer's gene. I'm certain that my family carries the gene. My mother and grandmother and grandmother's cousins have all ended up with it. So it wouldn't be a surprise. However, it would also be devastating to me to know for sure. My mother has no biological grandchildren (all adopted or steps), so my generation is the last to carry her genes. I'm not sure that my siblings want to know their future, either.

 

It would be interesting to do it for ancestry, though. Both for me and for my children, who were all adopted.

 

You check a box as to whether you want to know about Alzheimer's or not.  You could say no and still get the other information.

 

Both hubby and I want to know, esp since his mom has severe Alzheimers, but I completely understand those who'd rather not have that info, so wanted to let you know it's optional.

[gardenmom5]

DH did 23 and me and said there were 1,000 questions!

 

It’s giving me second thoughts about doing it 😆

 

 

the questions are optional - and you're free to skip one or all as you please.

 

ancestry also has questions - but it's broken down and isnt' as "medical".    more "do you play an instrument?" type things.

[gardenmom5]

You check a box as to whether you want to know about Alzheimer's or not.  You could say no and still get the other information.

 

Both hubby and I want to know, esp since his mom has severe Alzheimers, but I completely understand those who'd rather not have that info, so wanted to let you know it's optional.

 

parkinson's is also optional.

[maize]

DH did 23 and me and said there were 1,000 questions!

 

It’s giving me second thoughts about doing it 😆

You don't have to answer any of the questions--they're for research and you can choose to participate or not.

 

You can answer all the question, or just a few questions, or no questions.

[maize]

parkinson's is also optional.

I'm hoping their research uncovers new Parkinson genes--both my dad and grandpa got Parkinson's and my dad tested negative for the known genes.

[TKDmom]

I did Ancestry last summer. I discovered that one of my cousins has a son that was given up for adoption. Cousin doesn't want to know anything about it. He refuses to acknowledge that he could have a son. All the other cousins I've talked to (including his brother) agree that it must be him. It's been an interesting experience.

[gardenmom5]

I did Ancestry last summer. I discovered that one of my cousins has a son that was given up for adoption. Cousin doesn't want to know anything about it. He refuses to acknowledge that he could have a son. All the other cousins I've talked to (including his brother) agree that it must be him. It's been an interesting experience.

 

my mother was an only child.  my father grew up with a half-sister (never had children), and eventually met another half sister. (gave a child up for adoption)  I know there are two more half-sisters and a half-brother.  I know little about this last family, but pretty sure they have kids.

 

My niece recently had contact with my 2nd cousin (same ggps) on my father's paternal side.  I kinda/sort knew about her - as my gf had her grandmother's married name on his wwii draft card.   that was a nugget.  and one tidbit I'd come across about the other 'sister' of 'our' grandparents - which is supposedly in family stories - and I've found stuff in news articles, but her age just didnt' fit, and another man with the exact same name as our ggf who also lived in the bay area . . .   though I just found a possible SS death notice . . . same birthdate . . . .

[gardenmom5]

I'm hoping their research uncovers new Parkinson genes--both my dad and grandpa got Parkinson's and my dad tested negative for the known genes.

 

to my knowldege, there is no parkinson's or alzheimer's in my family.

there are TIA's galore . . . . which it asked about - but since I haven't had one, I could answer "no".   one reason I'm doing mthf - as it is also linked and I'm homozygous.

[Mbelle]

I just sent off 23andme.  

 

I did not know that my parents had also done ancestry and gotten back results.  

I guess no big surprises.  I was surprised a bit that after over 300 years of both sides of my family living in the US that our ancestry was all going back to Scot/Irish/Wales and then GB.  

 

I did see on the relative connect that there is a big group with our last name in the neighboring state.  We have a fairly uncommon last name so that is interesting.

[PeterPan]

to my knowldege, there is no parkinson's or alzheimer's in my family.

there are TIA's galore . . . . which it asked about - but since I haven't had one, I could answer "no".   one reason I'm doing mthf - as it is also linked and I'm homozygous.

 

There's a link between mthf and park/alz? I didn't know that, ugh. And I'm with Story, I hadn't thought through finding out stuff like that. i didn't even pay for 23andme's health screening. I just went with the cheap and figured I'd run it through the $5 website. 

 

I ran this testing on my kids. That would be devastating to get the results and know someday your kids are going to have that. :(

Edited January 11, 2018 by PeterPan

[gardenmom5]

There's a link between mthf and park/alz? I didn't know that, ugh. And I'm with Story, I hadn't thought through finding out stuff like that. i didn't even pay for 23andme's health screening. I just went with the cheap and figured I'd run it through the $5 website. 

 

I ran this testing on my kids. That would be devastating to get the results and know someday your kids are going to have that. :(

 

no-

there's a link between mthf and TIA's (vascular).  I take mthf, and am still trying to increase my dose.  I hope to prevent those issues.  I watched my mother and my grandmother deteriorate due to TIA's.  a number of my grandmother's sisters also had them.

[PeterPan]

Now I need to research what TIAs are. Never heard of them.

[maize]

There's a link between mthf and park/alz? I didn't know that, ugh. And I'm with Story, I hadn't thought through finding out stuff like that. i didn't even pay for 23andme's health screening. I just went with the cheap and figured I'd run it through the $5 website.

 

I ran this testing on my kids. That would be devastating to get the results and know someday your kids are going to have that. :(

Having one of the linked genes does not mean you will develop the disease; it usually means you have a somewhat higher probability than average of developing it but with most of these genes you are still more likely not to develop the disease than to develop it.

 

Genes interact with other genes and with environmental/lifestyle factors.

[PeterPan]

Ok, so they're mini-strokes. Why are mini-strokes correlated with MTHFR? That's why I did the genetics on dd, btw, because I think she is an undermethylator. I wanted to get hard data rather than just continuing on treating and assuming.

 

Do the TIAs occur young or something? Why would they be noticeable from oh the person was 80 and she had a stroke, kwim?

[PeterPan]

Having one of the linked genes does not mean you will develop the disease; it usually means you have a somewhat higher probability than average of developing it but with most of these genes you are still more likely not to develop the disease than to develop it.

 

Genes interact with other genes and with environmental/lifestyle factors.

 

Sigh, I hope so. Good reminder. That's what I'd like to think.

[mom2scouts]

My sister did one of these. Most of the results were what we expected except for the small amount of Pacific Islander.  Huh? I really need to go on a vacation to find my long lost relatives from that area! :lol:

[maize]

My sister did one of these. Most of the results were what we expected except for the small amount of Pacific Islander. Huh? I really need to go on a vacation to find my long lost relatives from that area! :lol:

Yes, this absolutely calls for a vacation! And since there are a lot of Pacific islands I think you need a really long vacation to visit all of them!

[gardenmom5]

Now I need to research what TIAs are. Never heard of them.

 

 

Ok, so they're mini-strokes. Why are mini-strokes correlated with MTHFR? That's why I did the genetics on dd, btw, because I think she is an undermethylator. I wanted to get hard data rather than just continuing on treating and assuming.

 

Do the TIAs occur young or something? Why would they be noticeable from oh the person was 80 and she had a stroke, kwim?

 

yeah - transient ischemic attack - aka: mini-stroke.  meaning symptoms last less than 24 hours.   the problem is - the damage is cumulative, and generally by the time they start being noticeable - the damage is well underway.  and a person who has TIA's is at greater risk for a major stroke within six months of the TIA.   TIA's do not occur in isolation (as in 'one and done')  - they are repetitive.

 

 

My mother had plenty of degeneration from TIA's when she died at 78 (not as much as her mother, but there was definitely degeneration.  her mother lived to 84 and she was barely conscious her last year.

 

mthf affects the methylation cycle which affects the vascular system.

[Amira]

My results just posted a few minutes ago.

[wapiti]

oh duh I did the genealogy testing, not health. I guess if we later pay the fee to include health then I would see the questions.

 

Personally, I don't find 23andme's health info all that revealing.  Just take your 23andme data and run it through third party sites.  Promethease is free through Jan 15th, if I recall correctly.  Genetic genie is always free, but a little different, more work to understand (ETA, as if anyone truly understands any of it).  Same for heathcoach7.  There are others.

Edited January 11, 2018 by wapiti

[gardenmom5]

oh duh I did the genealogy testing, not health. I guess if we later pay the fee to include health then I would see the questions.

 

i know there are people on this forum who know the names - I forget.

 

there are other sites to which you can upload your 'general' 23& me results and get health info.  for like $5.  or maybe $15 - but it was really cheap.

 

just like you can upload your genealogy info from one company and (usually) use it with another company's database.   there are info wiki's out there, but I'd have to search (again) to find them.

[gardenmom5]

Personally, I don't find 23andme's health info all that revealing.  Just take your 23andme data and run it through third party sites.  Promethease is free through Jan 15th, if I recall correctly.  Genetic genie is always free, but a little different, more work to understand (ETA, as if anyone truly understands any of it).  Same for heathcoach7.  There are others.

 

thanks for this.

 

I know my ND has one she uses - she takes the raw 23&Me data.  (she wanted 23&Me specifically)

[Amira]

Personally, I don't find 23andme's health info all that revealing. Just take your 23andme data and run it through third party sites. Promethease is free through Jan 15th, if I recall correctly. Genetic genie is always free, but a little different, more work to understand (ETA, as if anyone truly understands any of it). Same for heathcoach7. There are others.

Thanks for mentioning promethease is free right now!

[maize]

My results just posted a few minutes ago.

Any surprises?

[historically accurate]

I got back my Ancestry results today - my mom paid for herself, me, and my child so we could see the linked genes. We didn't do any health part. 

 

Um, I don't fit. I realize they're not exact, but there's no way mine flows through the line.

 

My paternal grandfather came from Sweden, and I am showing 6% Scandinavia & 60% West Europe. I have distant family that still lives on the manor granted by the king centuries ago. And my kid shows only has 10% West Europe... If I reclassify about 30% West Europe to Scandinavia on my list, I then fit back into the line, and it puts my dad at approx 55% Scandinavia (which would probably be about correct). Another little thing is I am showing as Irish/Scottish/Welsh, but both my mother and my child are showing as Great Britain.

 

They did recognize my mother as my mother, but my child shows up as a first cousin. None of us had any big surprises other than we are really, really congregated in Northern Europe (despite it showing migration to North America as back in the 1700s) - no Italian, no east European, no Spanish, etc. 

[Amira]

Any surprises?

Nope. I wasn’t sure if my ancestors from Denmark would get classified with Scandinavia or Western Europe, but most of them are in Western Europe, which makes sense since a lot are from southern Denmark. But truly, I’m am almost as homogenous as a person can get with everyone from the British Isles or Denmark and Norway, and the DNA agrees entirely.

[maize]

I got back my Ancestry results today - my mom paid for herself, me, and my child so we could see the linked genes. We didn't do any health part.

 

Um, I don't fit. I realize they're not exact, but there's no way mine flows through the line.

 

My paternal grandfather came from Sweden, and I am showing 6% Scandinavia & 60% West Europe. I have distant family that still lives on the manor granted by the king centuries ago. And my kid shows only has 10% West Europe... If I reclassify about 30% West Europe to Scandinavia on my list, I then fit back into the line, and it puts my dad at approx 55% Scandinavia (which would probably be about correct). Another little thing is I am showing as Irish/Scottish/Welsh, but both my mother and my child are showing as Great Britain.

 

They did recognize my mother as my mother, but my child shows up as a first cousin. None of us had any big surprises other than we are really, really congregated in Northern Europe (despite it showing migration to North America as back in the 1700s) - no Italian, no east European, no Spanish, etc.

If you are looking at your mother's family connections it makes sense for a grandchild to show up as a predicted first cousin--they are similar in amount of DNA shared.

 

If you go into your own or your child's profile and look at connections from that perspective the parent/child relationship should show up.

[historically accurate]

If you are looking at your mother's family connections it makes sense for a grandchild to show up as a predicted first cousin--they are similar in amount of DNA shared.

 

If you go into your own or your child's profile and look at connections from that perspective the parent/child relationship should show up.

 

My child shows as a first cousin to me on my page (not even "close relative - 1st cousin"), and my mother shows as my mother. On my child's page, it shows I am her mother and has her grandmother as "close relative - 1st cousin". 

 

So, I logged into my mother's, and I show as a child to her. My child/her grandchild shows as "close relative - 1st cousins", which would make sense. 

 

I think my page is off somehow; my genetics wouldn't fit in between my mom & my child. I have many of the same suggested family members, so they've put me in the family, but not quite correct from my page. 

[gardenmom5]

My child shows as a first cousin to me on my page (not even "close relative - 1st cousin"), and my mother shows as my mother. On my child's page, it shows I am her mother and has her grandmother as "close relative - 1st cousin". 

 

So, I logged into my mother's, and I show as a child to her. My child/her grandchild shows as "close relative - 1st cousins", which would make sense. 

 

I think my page is off somehow; my genetics wouldn't fit in between my mom & my child. I have many of the same suggested family members, so they've put me in the family, but not quite correct from my page. 

 

interesting.

have you ever heard of a human chimera?  or someone who is *their* own "twin"?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/human-chimera-what-the-rare-condition-is-and-why-there-might-be-many-more-people-with-it-than-we-a6709171.html

 

I first became aware of it when some program profiled two cases.

a woman who needed a kidney transplant.   her two son's were tested - they were tested as NOT genetically her sons.   they were her brother's sons.  with her husband.  after extensive testing - they found another set of dna in her reproductive tract.  - the twin she absorbed.

 

another woman who was being charged with welfare fraud, because her children were not geneticallly "hers", but her sisters.  the state had ordered paternity testing.  she was pg with another child - and after hearing about the former case, what they ended up doing was having a rep from cfs IN the delivery room with her to take a blood sample from the baby as soon as it was born - where they would KNOW it came from her.  yep - she's a chimera too.

 

it something that never comes up for most people, so most people would might be one never suspect and never test.

[historically accurate]

interesting.

have you ever heard of a human chimera?  or someone who is *their* own "twin"?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/human-chimera-what-the-rare-condition-is-and-why-there-might-be-many-more-people-with-it-than-we-a6709171.html

 

I first became aware of it when some program profiled two cases.

a woman who needed a kidney transplant.   her two son's were tested - they were tested as NOT genetically her sons.   they were her brother's sons.  with her husband.  after extensive testing - they found another set of dna in her reproductive tract.  - the twin she absorbed.

 

another woman who was being charged with welfare fraud, because her children were not geneticallly "hers", but her sisters.  the state had ordered paternity testing.  she was pg with another child - and after hearing about the former case, what they ended up doing was having a rep from cfs IN the delivery room with her to take a blood sample from the baby as soon as it was born - where they would KNOW it came from her.  yep - she's a chimera too.

 

it something that never comes up for most people, so most people would might be one never suspect and never test.

 

 

Oooh, weird, I've heard of it in novels, but never in real life. That'd be cool! 

 

Interestingly, my mother kept being told I was twins when she was pregnant. They didn't do ultrasounds way back when, so they were all ready for twins when I came alone. We've always assumed they screwed up the dates since I was 9 lbs 7 oz and about 4 weeks early, but maybe that's not the only explanation. 

[creekland]

interesting.

have you ever heard of a human chimera?  or someone who is *their* own "twin"?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/human-chimera-what-the-rare-condition-is-and-why-there-might-be-many-more-people-with-it-than-we-a6709171.html

 

I first became aware of it when some program profiled two cases.

a woman who needed a kidney transplant.   her two son's were tested - they were tested as NOT genetically her sons.   they were her brother's sons.  with her husband.  after extensive testing - they found another set of dna in her reproductive tract.  - the twin she absorbed.

 

another woman who was being charged with welfare fraud, because her children were not geneticallly "hers", but her sisters.  the state had ordered paternity testing.  she was pg with another child - and after hearing about the former case, what they ended up doing was having a rep from cfs IN the delivery room with her to take a blood sample from the baby as soon as it was born - where they would KNOW it came from her.  yep - she's a chimera too.

 

it something that never comes up for most people, so most people would might be one never suspect and never test.

 

I'm chalking this up as my "learn something new every day" fact of the day.  Thanks for sharing!

[gardenmom5]

Oooh, weird, I've heard of it in novels, but never in real life. That'd be cool! 

 

Interestingly, my mother kept being told I was twins when she was pregnant. They didn't do ultrasounds way back when, so they were all ready for twins when I came alone. We've always assumed they screwed up the dates since I was 9 lbs 7 oz and about 4 weeks early, but maybe that's not the only explanation. 

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160932707000592

is the first ID'd case of chimeraism.   apparently, blood "twining" is  not unprecedented in twins.

it's about a woman who donated blood - and when they were testing/typing it, got two different blood types.   turns out she was a twin.

Edited January 11, 2018 by gardenmom5

[maize]

My child shows as a first cousin to me on my page (not even "close relative - 1st cousin"), and my mother shows as my mother. On my child's page, it shows I am her mother and has her grandmother as "close relative - 1st cousin".

 

So, I logged into my mother's, and I show as a child to her. My child/her grandchild shows as "close relative - 1st cousins", which would make sense.

 

I think my page is off somehow; my genetics wouldn't fit in between my mom & my child. I have many of the same suggested family members, so they've put me in the family, but not quite correct from my page.

It does sound like reporting may be off somewhat on your page; I don't know that the ethnicity report is necessarily wrong; your mother and your child each only share 1/2 of your DNA so there is room for plenty of variation in that other 50%.

 

I'd contact the company about it.

 

Also, you can upload your raw data and that of your family members to GEDMATCH and use the chromosome comparison features there to see what segments you all share with each other.

Edited January 11, 2018 by maize

[Sandwalker]

Ok, so they're mini-strokes. Why are mini-strokes correlated with MTHFR? That's why I did the genetics on dd, btw, because I think she is an undermethylator. I wanted to get hard data rather than just continuing on treating and assuming.

 

Do the TIAs occur young or something? Why would they be noticeable from oh the person was 80 and she had a stroke, kwim?

Because some people with MTHFR have clotting disorders, and a clot in the brain can cause a TIA or a stroke.

[StartingOver]

If you are looking for someone, adopted, or want a tree then Ancestry is your best bet. 23andme is more for health, you can connect to family but it isn't much more than a list. 23 and me did find a 1/2 we never knew about. ;-) I highly suggest both, if you can afford it.

[ThisIsTheDay]

Oh that's funny, I thought 23&me's kit was much easier than the Genes4Good kit. With that one you had to add the preservative yourself. I thought the setup for 23&me was pretty slick with the stab through closure, the presealing box, the code to register, etc. 

 

Yeah, I did ours (well ds') as soon as the kit came. My dd dawdled so hers will be later. I figured the wait would go up. So now they're saying March? Ouch. I'm expecting our results the end of January-ish. I'm expecting to learn we're part rooster or something, I don't know. Don't know if it will be mundane or interesting, lol. I mainly did it to get the SNPs to submit for health stuff. But who knows, might learn something.

 

Of COURSE you're part rooster, you're PeterPan!!!

[displace]

You don't have to answer any of the questions--they're for research and you can choose to participate or not.

 

You can answer all the question, or just a few questions, or no questions.

Hmmm... somehow DH forgot to mention that, making it sound all self-sacrificial. 🙄

[TKDmom]

I got back my Ancestry results today - my mom paid for herself, me, and my child so we could see the linked genes. We didn't do any health part.

 

Um, I don't fit. I realize they're not exact, but there's no way mine flows through the line.

 

My paternal grandfather came from Sweden, and I am showing 6% Scandinavia & 60% West Europe. I have distant family that still lives on the manor granted by the king centuries ago. And my kid shows only has 10% West Europe... If I reclassify about 30% West Europe to Scandinavia on my list, I then fit back into the line, and it puts my dad at approx 55% Scandinavia (which would probably be about correct). Another little thing is I am showing as Irish/Scottish/Welsh, but both my mother and my child are showing as Great Britain.

 

They did recognize my mother as my mother, but my child shows up as a first cousin. None of us had any big surprises other than we are really, really congregated in Northern Europe (despite it showing migration to North America as back in the 1700s) - no Italian, no east European, no Spanish, etc.

I have heard that Ancestry is not really accurate for close relatives. It has something to do with the short dna segments that they analyze. 23&me is supposed to be better at identifying people in the same nuclear family.

[JonesinIndiana]

 

 

I first became aware of it when some program profiled two cases.

a woman who needed a kidney transplant. her two son's were tested - they were tested as NOT genetically her sons. they were her brother's sons. with her husband. after extensive testing - they found another set of dna in her reproductive tract. - the twin she absorbed.

 

another woman who was being charged with welfare fraud, because her children were not geneticallly "hers", but her sisters. the state had ordered paternity testing. she was pg with another child - and after hearing about the former case, what they ended up doing was having a rep from cfs IN the delivery room with her to take a blood sample from the baby as soon as it was born - where they would KNOW it came from her. yep - she's a chimera too.

 

it something that never comes up for most people, so most people would might be one never suspect and never test.

I saw that program. It was fascinating!

[StartingOver]

I have heard that Ancestry is not really accurate for close relatives. It has something to do with the short dna segments that they analyze. 23&me is supposed to be better at identifying people in the same nuclear family.

Ancestry has been spot on as has 23 and me. Ancestry has more trees, if you are looking for family and to build a tree it is far better.

[gardenmom5]

Ancestry has been spot on as has 23 and me. Ancestry has more trees, if you are looking for family and to build a tree it is far better.

 

again- it depends what you want to do with your dna.  if you want health - that's 23&me. if you want genealogy, ancestry has a better set up to link users.

[StartingOver]

again- it depends what you want to do with your dna.  if you want health - that's 23&me. if you want genealogy, ancestry has a better set up to link users.

I would never pay the price for 23 and me for health when Promethease.com is only $5. 

[maize]

I would never pay the price for 23 and me for health when Promethease.com is only $5.

You want 23andMe, but their cheaper ancestry service is fine--you can then run that data through promethease.

 

The advantage of 23andMe data over that of services such as ancestry.com is that their analysis chip includes more SNPs relevant to health than do the analysis chips of other services. 23andMe uses the exact same chip for their health and ancestry services, they just don't give you written health reports if you opt for the ancestry service.

Edited January 15, 2018 by maize