Bad grade in DE class senior year. Talk me down

[Hilltopmom]

I’m pretty upset with ds right now.

 

He got a D in a web design class (all of his prior computer sciences grades have been As). He says he had a hard time with the material (it was new to him, previous programming classes all came easy to him with lots of experience coding on his own already).

 

It was entirely online which I let him take because he’s had the professor before and found him easy to work with and available for questions during office hours. He didn’t go to office hours, email the prof or ask for help all semester nor tell me he was having trouble :(

He says he was embarrassed to say anything and thought he should “just know how to do itâ€.

I was a bit speechless at that.

 

I’m just really disappointed in him.

Trying to tease out if the issue was really being afraid to ask for help (a maturity and experience issue) or if there is something else going on...

(I do have some concerns about depression and video game overuse we’re going to be talking to his dr appt at an upcoming appt)

 

He did fine in his other two DE classes this semester. But a D in a class for your major?!?

 

These grades have to go to colleges too I pointed out, no idea how much of an issue that’s going to be. He’s already accepted at the schools he’s likely to go to, under what circumstances do colleges rescind offers of admission or scholarships?

 

Feel free to talk me down please.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Hilltopmom

[Arcadia]

He got a D in a web design class (all of his prior computer sciences grades have been As). He says he had a hard time with the material (it was new to him, previous programming classes all came easy to him with lots of experience coding on his own already).

His programming experience is mainly in robotics? Has he done video gaming design? There is an aesthetic element and human psychology aspect to web design that is not in a typical programming class. My kids are doing their own blogs as a hobby, it is a different learning curve than taking the ap Computer Science exam or programming for First Lego League.

 

If he had the same professor before, is he afraid of appearing dumb by being weaker at web design when he had aced the previous class taught by this professor? My husband had that problem until he figured out he would feel worse if he did badly for his finals in school so he rather looked dumb by asking early.

[regentrude]

He should look into the college' policy for grade replacement. At our school, students may retake a class if they got a D or F, and the new grade will replace the D or F on the transcript. I strongly recommend he do that.

[OneStepAtATime]

If he normally does very well in classes within his major/area of interest he may very well have had severe embarrassment and anxiety over appearing "dumb" by not being able to immediately "get" this particular area.  That can be especially true if you are taking a class from a professor you like and did well under before.  Sometimes it is hard to get past that dynamic and genuinely ask for help.  And having that issue can cause depression to ratchet up which can make it even harder to ask for help.  The brain is no longer thinking it through clearly.

 

I agree with regentrude, see if he can retake the class and get the grade replaced.

 

:grouphug:  to both of you

[hornblower]

Ok, I know nothing about your post sec system but to me - it's one D. Really, it's ok. 

In fact, I'm gonna go one further. It's good. It's good he's having this experience NOW, when it's safe, when he's home and when you can gently help him see through it. 

It's way better than getting Fs once IN post secondary and crashing and burning there. But you know what, even THAT is not that big a deal.  I've told you guys before about my friends who were first on academic probation, then got kicked out, then smartened up and came back. One of them has a PhD now and works for the UN all around the world. 

We need to stop talking about these things as if they're the end of the line for you if you make one misstep. They're just not. You screw up, you dust yourself off and keep going. I met so many cool kids this past year who were taking Anatomy & Physiology again (& again - my college allows 3 tries) to boost grades for admission to the health science programs they were targetting.  They were so refreshingly open and sensible about it. Gotta say, me at their age would have wanted to go hide in shame in a corner. In fact, I did change my major because of a C. I was a silly girl back then and nobody just said "yeah, whatever, it happens. Get back on that horse." 

Is this course a pre-req for something? Does he want/need the credit? If so, then yes, retake with some more diligence &/or a tutor. Otherwise, just move on and use this as a learning opportunity about study skills, seeking help early, being open to failure, being ok with 'not getting it' at first .

 

[madteaparty]

 

Is this at a SUNY? There is a sort of mechanism to where it's somehow possible (because profs have told me it is) that kids stop even *attending* class and somehow it doesn't affect their GPA. I thought it was just a repeat like regentrude says but I am not sure exactly.

Second, I'd be happy (well not happy exactly, I'd be furious like you are but after reflection ;)) that it happened at home. This dealing with grades, prof styles and personalities, officehours, is a sort of meta- but not really-academic set of skills that really is acquired. So he's learning while he's still at home for you to yell at him. That's a net good in my view.

[OneStepAtATime]

I agree with the others, by the way, one D is not awful.  I have made As and Ds.  The Ds taught me more.  The Ds showed me where I really did need to seek help and maybe not be so boneheaded about it.  The Ds showed me that making a D is not the end of the world so freaking out actually is a pretty useless reaction (I was freaking out but NOT saying anything to anyone or seeking any outside help because it was so horrible to me that I couldn't voice that horror to others.).

 

Hang in there.  Best wishes.

[RootAnn]

Yep, I'd be upset.

 

At him for not asking for help. At him not telling me what was going on so I could bug him earlier to get into office hours.

 

And, ultimately, I'd be mad at myself because I'd wonder if I should have somehow known.

 

But, really, what a learning! Online classes not yet a fit for this particular young man. That he could still use some prodding/reminding about going in to ask for help. Young man has now learned this lesson, hopefully, and will keep it in mind for later.

 

One D by itself is not the end of the world (no scholarship gpa to keep). Colleges will likely not rescind an offer unless grades drop overall (multiple Cs & Ds instead of As & Bs).

 

ETA:  If they are alarmed at the D, they might send a letter asking for an explanation. That's when your DS explains what he learned from the experience and how it won't happen again.

Edited December 21, 2017 by RootAnn

[Hilltopmom]

Thanks guys.

He doesn’t need the class, it was just the last comp sci course our CC has that he hadn’t taken so he wanted to take it. No interest in web design.

It’s not offered this semester so he can’t retake it.

I’m not mad at him about the D, heck I had my fair share.

I’m disappointed he didn’t ask for help and tbh sad that he lied to me all semester when I asked how it was going.

(This was the first semester that I backed off and didn’t oversee grades and assignments as courses went along- because he insisted that after 3 semesters of all As in DE classes, he could handle it on his own)

After talking to him more this afternoon, he knows how badly he screwed up and there is definitely other stuff going on, mental health wise that we need to treat.

I’m feeling guilty too because I went back to work this fall and haven’t been around very much to keep tabs on things either.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Hilltopmom

[Hilltopmom]

His programming experience is mainly in robotics? Has he done video gaming design? There is an aesthetic element and human psychology aspect to web design that is not in a typical programming class. My kids are doing their own blogs as a hobby, it is a different learning curve than taking the ap Computer Science exam or programming for First Lego League.

 

If he had the same professor before, is he afraid of appearing dumb by being weaker at web design when he had aced the previous class taught by this professor? My husband had that problem until he figured out he would feel worse if he did badly for his finals in school so he rather looked dumb by asking early.

Yes to all of that. It was much more making a website pretty vs programming.

The 4 classes he’d had with the same prof prior semesters he had all A pluses.

[Haiku]

I would encourage you not to continue to think of this as a "bad screw-up." Expecting that our children will always do well in whatever they undertake, and treating less-than-expected outcomes as failures or tragedies, really just encourages them not to take risks or to put way too much pressure on themselves.

 

Your son is young, he has mental health issues, and he tried something new. It didn't turn out the way he hoped it would. Certainly, it can be a learning experience to identify ways he could approach the situation differently, but it seems like shaming him to label it a "bad screw-up."

 

My dd recently had to take an incomplete in her first ever DE class. It was up to the teacher whether to give the incomplete, and while we were waiting to hear, my dd was incredibly anxious. If she had to skip the final and just take a zero for it, it would pull her overall grade down from an A to a C. My brother-in-law, who sits on the admissions committee of an Ivy League school, said that they view one C or D on an otherwise good transcript as a "talking point," and he told dd not to worry about it at all.

 

I am going back to school starting next semester. I will be studying something completely new for me, and I am starting with a tough class. I was worrying aloud to my husband about what would happen if I didn't get an A. He told me, in his eminently practical way, "Nothing will happen. Either you will get the grade you need to continue in the program, or you will take the class over. Don't worry about it." And he's right. I busted my behind in college, graduated summa cum laude, and was selected as my program's outstanding graduate. I worked in my field for five years, switched to a job in an entirely different field for 3 years, and have basically been a stay-at-home mom for the last 16 years. I regret the pressure I put on myself (and that was put on me by my parents) when I was in college (and high school, for that matter). My life would literally not have been an iota different if I'd had a lower GPA and enjoyed college more.

[MerryAtHope]

You know what? Live and learn and move on. This is so typically teen behavior! They think they've got it when they don't. They think they can pull it out at the last minute when they can't. They don't know how to motivate themselves when the topic isn't as interesting to them. They think online classes will somehow be easier (when in actuality, they're harder because they take so much more self-discipline and organizational skills--check out this recent thread on the college board about online courses). They think they should know stuff already rather than having to learn it (I can't tell you how many times I have said to my kids, "You are taking a class in this because you do NOT know this material! No one expects you to know it already! We ALL expect you to need help and to ask for help." I said this in junior high, high school, AND in college!) Students think something is wrong with them if they need to ask for help. Some will ask, but many, many won't, even when they should. I pretty much had to force my son to go to the writing center for help when he was a freshman, and to go to his instructor's office hours! I knew one instructor who offered extra credit to students who went to his office hours at some point--and some kids still wouldn't go!

 

Anyway--help him debrief and figure out what to do differently next time, and tell him not to worry about it. 

 

I hope he feels better soon, mental health wise!

 

 

[Hilltopmom]

Thank you Haiku, you’re right.

 

This is not the end of the world. But it is a symptom of other things going on that I wasn’t aware of.

[Hilltopmom]

Everyone, thanks so much.

I’m still concerned and making plans to change a few things next semester plus but I knew you all could help me with how to view this.

[kiana]

(This was the first semester that I backed off and didn’t oversee grades and assignments as courses went along- because he insisted that after 3 semesters of all As in DE classes, he could handle it on his own)

 

I actually think it's really good to get this out of the way now. So many young students go off to college (where they don't have mom overseeing grades) and bomb everything. He's got one bad class -- and now he knows what happens. 

[GoodGrief]

Great opportunity for a learning experience! It's hugely important to know how to communicate with profs and deal with struggles in class material...so now, he has an opportunity to figure out strategies for future reference.

 

This could possibly affect the offer of admission but probably not. Call over there before the transcript goes though, so you have some sense of what might happen. He may need to write a letter explaining the grade if it's an issue.

[hornblower]

scrolling through twitter tonight & saw this: 

"I have inadvertently started a thread of academics revealing the courses they flunked in grad school. Chin up, doctoral students!"

https://twitter.com/dynarski/status/942575976139108352

[Bootsie]

I had a student tell me he was taking an "L" this semester.  When I asked him what that meant, he told me "a big LEARNING experience"  So your son is not alone; really what is important in the long run is what he does take away form the experience

[Bluegoat]

It strikes me that he was embarrassed about not getting it easily.  

 

That's a problem for a lot of bright kids - they don't really know what to do about work that they are struggling with - they can't "see" what might help the situation, even if, for example, they were to get extra help.  They are used to everything just making sense.

 

It's something bright kids of that type often learn late, or not at all, but it's a really important lesson.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well, big hugs. I would be equally frustrated.  Hopefully it doesn't bite him in the arse and he learns from the mistake.

 

 

[Hilltopmom]

Now I can’t decide what to do about spring semester classes.

We want to work on the gaming addiction and mental health stuff.

 

But I want him to continue DE classes so it doesn’t look like he just slacked off senior year- doing poorly first semester then cutting way back on DE classes in the spring, KWIM?

He and I can both send a letter explaining the change in courses and what happened grade wise if need be.

 

He’s enrolled for one he really wants to take on campus. Everything else (just math & spanish, plus coding on his own) currently planned is an at home high school level class.

(He’s met most high school requirements at this point)

 

I’d kind of like him to do one other on campus course (a Gen Ed), to get him out of the house more and interacting with people and a textbook not online. (I’m teaching out of the house 4 days a week)

I just don’t know if I should back off academically while he’s getting help or have him in 2 DE Courses. He’ll still be doing robotics and hopefully looking for a part time job and learning how to drive.

 

Getting him help with the mental health stuff and gaming is first priority. But I think keeping busy with school might help with that?

Edited December 26, 2017 by Hilltopmom

[madteaparty]

Now I can’t decide what to do about spring semester classes.

We want to work on the gaming addiction and mental health stuff.

 

But I want him to continue DE classes so it doesn’t look like he just slacked off senior year- doing poorly first semester then cutting way back on DE classes in the spring, KWIM?

He and I can both send a letter explaining the change in courses and what happened grade wise if need be.

 

He’s enrolled for one he really wants to take on campus. Everything else (just math & spanish, plus coding on his own) currently planned is an at home high school level class.

(He’s met most high school requirements at this point)

 

I’d kind of like him to do one other on campus course (a Gen Ed), to get him out of the house more and interacting with people and a textbook not online. (I’m teaching out of the house 4 days a week)

I just don’t know if I should back off academically while he’s getting help or have him in 2 DE Courses. He’ll still be doing robotics and hopefully looking for a part time job and learning how to drive.

 

Getting him help with the mental health stuff and gaming is first priority. But I think keeping busy with school might help with that?

Completely random, but does he ski by any chance? I’ve just today decided if DS continues to do DE (which, why would he stop) it will have to be fall semester only. We do more traditional homeschooling spring semester so we can take days off to ski in the spring. He’s not competitive or anything (so it won’t be clear from his transcript why this kid only does “school†in the fall but I don’t care.

[MarkT]

 

I’d kind of like him to do one other on campus course (a Gen Ed), to get him out of the house more and interacting with people and a textbook not online. (I’m teaching out of the house 4 days a week)

I just don’t know if I should back off academically while he’s getting help or have him in 2 DE Courses. He’ll still be doing robotics and hopefully looking for a part time job and learning how to drive.

 

 

learning to drive is very important before heading off to college IMHO

my nephew's friends (in LP)  that did not get their licenses in HS still don't have them at age 20-21

[Hilltopmom]

Cross country ski but not down hill. Not enough snow the last few years to cross country much anymore.

 

I agree on the driving- I didn’t learn in high school (we were at an embassy overseas & driving age was 18) and it was difficult to learn in college

[madteaparty]

Cross country ski but not down hill. Not enough snow the last few years to cross country much anymore.

 

I agree on the driving- I didn’t learn in high school (we were at an embassy overseas & driving age was 18) and it was difficult to learn in college

Well, colleges don’t know the snow report and how far one drives to be able to ski ;)

[luuknam]

I’d kind of like him to do one other on campus course (a Gen Ed), to get him out of the house more and interacting with people and a textbook not online. (I’m teaching out of the house 4 days a week)

I just don’t know if I should back off academically while he’s getting help or have him in 2 DE Courses. 

 

 

I'd probably try for a second DE course on campus, but one that he's interested in. If it doesn't transfer, so what? In other words, maybe a Gen Ed, maybe not. At the very least, I would not sign him up for something that he's NOT interested in - it's okay if he's kind of neutral-ish, but interested would be better. 

 

FWIW, my first semester in the US I took some classes at the CC - 2 were Spring I courses, one was semester long, and 2 were Spring II courses. So, when I applied to a 4-year university in April, I had the grades from Spring I (an A in US Govt I and an F in US History I, and a W in the semester-long Art Appreciation course), and decided to take only one course in Spring II, for which I of course didn't have a grade yet. So, that was a 2.0 GPA, which was below the required 2.5 minimum GPA to transfer to said 4 year institution. I figured "what the hell" and sent in the application anyway - worst thing that could happen was that they'd say no and I'd spend more time at a CC. Not only did they admit me despite having a too-low GPA to meet admission requirements, they gave me their biggest scholarship (probably some combination of being a female applying to major in EE, having great SAT scores especially for being ESL, and a good essay, being a nice 'diversity' addition (not many Dutch people applying to state universities in the US, especially not with having spent a year as an exchange student in Thailand), etc).

 

Anyway... sometimes a bad grade (even an F) isn't a big deal. Of course, sometimes it is. As you can see above, there are many reasons why they might have been willing to take a risk on me and give me that scholarship. So, YMMV. IOW, I wouldn't assume it's going to hurt admissions and scholarships... but I wouldn't assume that it won't either. Of course, you can't change the past, so, no point worrying about that. 

 

Mental health is complicated. Meds can make a difference (and therapy). Sometimes more work can temporarily be enough of a distraction to make things work better... but it can also be a bigger mess when everything comes tumbling down, as one thing spiraling out of control can drag everything else down with it. One of my best semesters (grade wise) was when I took 19 hours including Neuroanatomy, Neuroscience Lab Methods, Calc II, and Intro to Digital Systems while DW completely spiraled out of control with her bipolar and I had to see the counseling center for my own GAD and dysthymia... and another great semester (straight As) was the semester I asked the psych to prescribe me an antipsychotic and she did, which made my effective IQ drop about 2 standard deviations and made me super sleepy, but it enabled me to get the job done... but, I also have semesters with straight Fs or with As and Fs, or with As and Ws... it's so, so, hard to tell whether I'll knock a semester out of the ballpark or if it'll go up in flames... normal semesters are so long and things can change so much. 

 

But anyway, that's me, and not your son. So far, he's been doing a good job, and just goofed up in one class. Basically, what I meant to say, is that I'd probably keep his course load about the same, but just avoid classes he's not interested in (at least as far as DE is concerned). Realistically, more spare time is more time playing video games, unless you're taking some action to not let that happen.

 

PS, I didn't get a driver's license until I was 23. Depending on where you go to college, it can be important, or not that big a deal. When I lived in Corpus & Dallas I walked or bicycled places. Of course, I also had my spouse to drive me places, but there wasn't a *need* - I would've gotten by just fine without that, though it's not super fun to bicycle in hot weather on multilane roads (we lived on campus during summer). I would absolutely want my kids to get their driver's licenses before they go off to college, because I don't see a benefit in waiting longer, but I don't think it's a necessity as far as living on campus is concerned (depending, of course, on the college), so, if there was a reason it couldn't happen before college, I'd just shrug my shoulders and say "oh well". I do think mastering life skills are a confidence boost, so, there's that. 

[Hilltopmom]

Thanks all.

Today I’m leaning towards just the one DE class he’s highly interested in but adding another at home class that he can choose from a few options. Unless I can get his buy in on a Gen Ed.

Less to withdraw from and lose money on if things go bad, and I think they might, unfortunately.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Hilltopmom