Your experiences being vegetarian

[Rosie_0801]

I tried vegan diet about 20 years ago. Ended up with terrible stomach pains, although I was doing everything right. Later, whenever I tried to get more vegetables into my diet I inevitably get low stomach acid, so all those nutritious veggies just sit in my stomach and irritate me. Usually, I forget it after a while, and try again, like right now. I feel like I have yesterday's lunch of lentil soup and salad still in my stomach. It will take a few days to normalize. If any vegans/vegetarians can suggest plant foods that raise acid, I am listening. I know dairy does it, and I do get quite a bit of it, but once I start eating more vegetables, it stops being enough.

 

Ferment the beastly vegetables!

[Laura Corin]

 

Complex carbohydrates such as legumes can take more time to digest - esp I think if your gut flora is not accustomed to them.

Our guts also need to adapt to dealing with high fiber. However, hIgh fiber plant foods generally spend less time in the digestive tract (this is believed to be part of the reason why diets high in veg and plant fiber are associated with lower colon cancer risk).

 

I'd suggest you consult with a registered dietitian (not a nutritionist) &/or a gastroenterologist to investigate your issue.

When I started serving more pulses, Husband felt bloated and windy at first. After a while his digestive system got used to them and it's no longer an issue. Edited December 23, 2017 by Laura Corin

[OlgaLA]

Digestion is only partly dependent on acid. In fact, the majority of digestion is an enzymatic process which only starts in the stomach (where the function of the acidity is partly to stimulate the secretion of the pepsinogen enzyme to begin breaking down proteins) and has little to do with acid. 

 

Most of digestion happens in the duoedenum and the rest of the small intestine and that environment is entirely basic. 

 

So I think you're attributing your symptoms to something that doesn't actually reflect the biology of digestion. 

 

Complex carbohydrates such as legumes can take more time to digest - esp I think if your gut flora is not accustomed to them. 

Our guts also need to adapt to dealing with high fiber.  However, hIgh fiber plant foods generally spend less time in the digestive tract (this is believed to be part of the reason why diets high in veg and plant fiber are associated with lower colon cancer risk). 

 

I'd suggest you consult with a registered dietitian (not a nutritionist) &/or a gastroenterologist to investigate your issue. 

 

I know most of the digestion takes place in intestines. In my case the food doesn't get that far.  It just sits in stomach forever, making me nauseous for days.  And I know my acid tends to get low. When I eat vegetables in moderation or in the beginning of my binge, before acid levels drop, I have no problems with them going all the way, no bloating or other troubles.

 

Ferment the beastly vegetables!

 That actually sounds interesting. I don't eat a lot of those, because whatever I can buy is too spicy for me, but I will look into doing it myself at home. Thanks!

[Sandwalker]

I know most of the digestion takes place in intestines. In my case the food doesn't get that far. It just sits in stomach forever, making me nauseous for days. And I know my acid tends to get low. When I eat vegetables in moderation or in the beginning of my binge, before acid levels drop, I have no problems with them going all the way, no bloating or other troubles.

 

That actually sounds interesting. I don't eat a lot of those, because whatever I can buy is too spicy for me, but I will look into doing it myself at home. Thanks!

Apple cider vinegar, the real organic thick kind like Bragg's or Trader Joe's can help with digestion. A probiotic may help as well. And maybe cut back on the dairy.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh I get some major rumbly in the tumbly with a lot of veg.  I still eat them, but this has never gone away unfortunately. 

 

 

[regentrude]

Oh I get some major rumbly in the tumbly with a lot of veg.  I still eat them, but this has never gone away unfortunately. 

 

I eat lots of veggies, but have trouble with beans. I am a college instructor and simply cannot be farting while I lecture.

[OrganicJen]

I eat lots of veggies, but have trouble with beans. I am a college instructor and simply cannot be farting while I lecture.

Lol!

[SparklyUnicorn]

I eat lots of veggies, but have trouble with beans. I am a college instructor and simply cannot be farting while I lecture.

 

Yeah, can you imagine the reviews on Rate My Prof?

 

:laugh:

[wintermom]

Ferment the beastly vegetables!

 

This causes more pain and bloating in the gut. Low FODMAP diets, recommend eliminating fermented foods, as well as foods that can ferment in the gut, such as beans, lentils, broccili, and a whole bunch more. The list is extensive. 

 

It was very helpful in eliminating pain, bloating and constipation for me, though. 

Edited December 23, 2017 by wintermom

[SparklyUnicorn]

This causes more pain and bloating in the gut. Low FODMAP diets, recommend eliminating fermented foods, as well as foods that can ferment in the gut, such as beans, lentils, broccili, and a whole bunch more. The list is extensive. 

 

Yep

 

Another thing I eat, but causes problems for sure.  I have cut back on it, but sadly it hates me.

 

Broccoli is my favorite veg.  :crying:

[SparklyUnicorn]

See I don't get this.  This healthy stuff is so problematic for me.  Carbs hate me.  Veg hates me.  Only thing that does not hate me is meat.  So someone telling me I'll be healthier on a diet of only veg...and carb?  Not happening.

 

 

[wintermom]

See I don't get this.  This healthy stuff is so problematic for me.  Carbs hate me.  Veg hates me.  Only thing that does not hate me is meat.  So someone telling me I'll be healthier on a diet of only veg...and carb?  Not happening.

 

I love broccoli, too, but I'll happily give it up because the pain is too much.  I have nut allergies, bean and broccoli gas pain and celiac. If it weren't for animal protein I'd starve. 

 

BTW it's tree pollen that causes most of my allergies. Plants are unkind to me. ;)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I love broccoli, too, but I'll happily give it up because the pain is too much.  I have nut allergies, bean and broccoli gas pain and celiac. If it weren't for animal protein I'd starve. 

 

BTW it's tree pollen that causes most of my allergies. Plants are unkind to me. ;)

 

Oh interesting.  I have very very severe allergies to tree pollen and grass pollen.  I'm currently trying immunotherapy, but it's been hell!

[OrganicJen]

So for about 16 years I've been milling my own flour from a variety of whole grains like einkhorn wheat, spelt, kamut, millet, amaranth, quinoa, etc. I like to mix a bunch together. One of the things a lot of us who do this do, is add dry beans to some batches of grain to be milled because it has been known for awhile that the combination of whole grains and beans forms a complete protein. In my own experience when the beans are in the flour and baked as part of the bread, I don't notice any digestion issues at all, although beans don't bother my digestion too much as it is. So maybe adding bean flour to whole grain flour can help some people who want more beans but have issues with digestion? I'm not vegetarian so I don't rely on beans for protein or anything, I just thought it might be an idea for those who do. I do eat and drink lactofermented foods like sauerkraut and kefir too so maybe I don't get bothered by beans much because of something like that in my diet, I'm not sure just throwing it out there. I love beans, especially heirloom beans, so I hate to hear that anyone has a lot of trouble with them. I grow a lot of my own dry beans but for those who don't know, Rancho Gordo sells some delicious heirloom beans by the way.

[Rosie_0801]

This causes more pain and bloating in the gut. Low FODMAP diets, recommend eliminating fermented foods, as well as foods that can ferment in the gut, such as beans, lentils, broccili, and a whole bunch more. The list is extensive. 

 

It was very helpful in eliminating pain, bloating and constipation for me, though. 

 

This doesn't make any sense to me. Fermented foods are rendered easier to digest by the fermentation process. 

 

 

The other thing that people don't usually mention is to make sure you chew properly. It's so easy to forget, because chewing is too boring to pay attention to!

[sassenach]

ha, turns out I can't stay away...

 

WHY is it that people who are not veg*n always come into these threads to bash it? I mean, the question is what is your experience of it and people come in to say they couldn't possibly/it's not healthy/veg*ns are rude.

 

I try really really hard to not go on "look at this meat I'm eating" threads because all I could / would say would be unkind and unhelpful but mention a veg&n thread and omnis descend on it to sniff in disapproval or poke fun or start arguments.

 

 

I have to ask, why the * in veg*n?

[wintermom]

This doesn't make any sense to me. Fermented foods are rendered easier to digest by the fermentation process. 

 

 

No, fermented foods are preserved by the fermentation process. The difficult to digest fibres and complex carbohydrates are still present. 

Edited December 23, 2017 by wintermom

[itsheresomewhere]

So for about 16 years I've been milling my own flour from a variety of whole grains like einkhorn wheat, spelt, kamut, millet, amaranth, quinoa, etc. I like to mix a bunch together. One of the things a lot of us who do this do, is add dry beans to some batches of grain to be milled because it has been known for awhile that the combination of whole grains and beans forms a complete protein. In my own experience when the beans are in the flour and baked as part of the bread, I don't notice any digestion issues at all, although beans don't bother my digestion too much as it is. So maybe adding bean flour to whole grain flour can help some people who want more beans but have issues with digestion? I'm not vegetarian so I don't rely on beans for protein or anything, I just thought it might be an idea for those who do. I do eat and drink lactofermented foods like sauerkraut and kefir too so maybe I don't get bothered by beans much because of something like that in my diet, I'm not sure just throwing it out there. I love beans, especially heirloom beans, so I hate to hear that anyone has a lot of trouble with them. I grow a lot of my own dry beans but for those who don't know, Rancho Gordo sells some delicious heirloom beans by the way.

I grow beans and it doesn’t matter for me. Unfortunately, I can only eat a cup of them a week or I will pay. As I get older, I just can’t handle them well. Aduki seems to be ok for my gut as they don’t bother me like the rest.

[Sandwalker]

So for about 16 years I've been milling my own flour from a variety of whole grains like einkhorn wheat, spelt, kamut, millet, amaranth, quinoa, etc. I like to mix a bunch together. One of the things a lot of us who do this do, is add dry beans to some batches of grain to be milled because it has been known for awhile that the combination of whole grains and beans forms a complete protein. In my own experience when the beans are in the flour and baked as part of the bread, I don't notice any digestion issues at all, although beans don't bother my digestion too much as it is. So maybe adding bean flour to whole grain flour can help some people who want more beans but have issues with digestion? I'm not vegetarian so I don't rely on beans for protein or anything, I just thought it might be an idea for those who do. I do eat and drink lactofermented foods like sauerkraut and kefir too so maybe I don't get bothered by beans much because of something like that in my diet, I'm not sure just throwing it out there. I love beans, especially heirloom beans, so I hate to hear that anyone has a lot of trouble with them. I grow a lot of my own dry beans but for those who don't know, Rancho Gordo sells some delicious heirloom beans by the way.

OooOOoooOooh these beans are so beautiful! Thanks for the tip!

https://www.ranchogordo.com/collections/heirloom-beans

[OrganicJen]

OooOOoooOooh these beans are so beautiful! Thanks for the tip!

https://www.ranchogordo.com/collections/heirloom-beans

No problem, enjoy! It was the beautiful and tasty Rancho Gordo beans that got me to start growing my own. These amazing jade beans are some of my favorite to grow for dry beans for soups and such because of how different they look.... https://www.rareseeds.com/fort-portal-jade-bean-/

[hornblower]

I have to ask, why the * in veg*n?

 

 it's shorthand for "vegetarian or vegan" :)  

[Liz CA]

Because we're answering the question?  It's not a JAWM thread.  It's a questioning one and I, personally, answered the question from my point of view.  I never once dissed anyone who chooses differently.  I don't at school or elsewhere either.  I also don't diss the other end of the spectrum from those who feel meat only diets are the best, but I will disagree with them if asked for my experience (which is science based).

 

 

This...and I was just curious what kept people from eating fish if they do refrain.

It does not really matter to me who eats meat or doesn't - same with fish. I just know I like it ;) and fish has typically been hailed as a healthy choice if you stick with deep water fish.

 

On another note, I do have a vegetarian cookbook (bought about 25 years ago) and it seems to have been written by a true vegetarian - not just someone who left the meat out of the recipes. We love several recipes from this book because they are creative and very tasty.

[Liz CA]

No, fermented foods are preserved by the fermentation process. The difficult to digest fibres and complex carbohydrates are still present. 

 

 

https://bodyecology.com/articles/fermented-foods-one-step-better-than-raw

 

It appears fermentation preserves as well as aids digestion.

[Liz CA]

I grow beans and it doesn’t matter for me. Unfortunately, I can only eat a cup of them a week or I will pay. As I get older, I just can’t handle them well. Aduki seems to be ok for my gut as they don’t bother me like the rest.

 

 

I wonder if this is similar to what I am experiencing with legumes - I can eat green beans with no problems.

I usually don't even get the issue with gas but they sit in my stomach like a rock and I feel awful. I know lentils and all the other beans are supposed to be good for you but oh my, I don't seem to be able to benefit from them. I do soak them in case someone was wondering but it seems to make no difference.

[Sandwalker]

https://www.thefullhelping.com/10-tips-for-better-bean-digestion-a-few-announcements/

 

Tl;dr

If you're an infrequent legume eater, you'll have a more difficult time digesting them.

 

To help avoid gas from beans:

Rinse and heat/cook canned beans

Soak and cook dried beans well. Pressure cooking is awesome.

Indian spices used in bean preparation include ginger, turmeric, fennel and asafoetida and seem to help with digestion of the beans.

Don't salt until after cooking.

Eating the legumes with a whole grain like brown rice, whole grain bread or pasta is easier on the tummy.

Eat mindfully, chewing well and drinking enough liquid. Digestion starts with chewing.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Sandwalker

[Rosie_0801]

I grow beans and it doesn’t matter for me. Unfortunately, I can only eat a cup of them a week or I will pay. As I get older, I just can’t handle them well. Aduki seems to be ok for my gut as they don’t bother me like the rest.

 

Do you soak them with a splash of vinegar? That makes a difference.

[Rosie_0801]

I wish I could buy 'Eye of the Goat' beans for my brother next Christmas. He's always wanted goats and appreciates a punny gift.

[OrganicJen]

I wish I could buy 'Eye of the Goat' beans for my brother next Christmas.

I've had those they are so good! Maybe it's just me but when I grow or buy different looking beans or veggies that to me are pretty to look at, I eat a lot more of them. I think the pre-oral (looking at the food) stage of eating is my favorite I guess...I'm all about pretty food.

[wintermom]

https://bodyecology.com/articles/fermented-foods-one-step-better-than-raw

 

It appears fermentation preserves as well as aids digestion.

 

Pickles, port, wine, sherry are all on the list of things to avoid for the low FODMAP diet, used to help people with IBS (iritable bowel syndrome) and other bowel and digestion problems. My gastroenterologist recommended this diet for me, and it certainly gave me relief from gut pain. 

Edited December 24, 2017 by wintermom

[OrganicJen]

The type of fermentation is different though. Lactofermemtation is the type that adds probiitics to your diet. So it's different from alcohol.

[Liz CA]

Pickles, port, wine, sherry are all on the list of things to avoid for the low FODMAP diet, used to help people with IBS (iritable bowel syndrome) and other bowel and digestion problems. My gastroenterologist recommended this diet for me, and it certainly gave me relief from gut pain. 

 

I am glad you got relief. Digestion issues are the pits. I do't know about FODMAP, just that I always heard fermented veggies and other fermented products like Kefir were healthy and aided digestion as well as replenishing the "good" bacteria in the stomach. Other than pickles, is it mainly alcohol you need to avoid?

[Rosie_0801]

Pickles, port, wine, sherry are all on the list of things to avoid for the low FODMAP diet, used to help people with IBS (iritable bowel syndrome) and other bowel and digestion problems. My gastroenterologist recommended this diet for me, and it certainly gave me relief from gut pain. 

 

My mother is able to use miso and kombucha to control her IBS a lot of the time. Of course IBS can be caused by any number of things, so what works for one may not work for another.

[OrganicJen]

I am glad you got relief. Digestion issues are the pits. I do't know about FODMAP, just that I always heard fermented veggies and other fermented products like Kefir were healthy and aided digestion as well as replenishing the "good" bacteria in the stomach. Other than pickles, is it mainly alcohol you need to avoid?

Kefir and fermented veggies are made by lactofermentation and do add probiotics, but alcohol is a different type of fermentation so it acts quite differently in the gut.

[creekland]

I eat lots of veggies, but have trouble with beans. I am a college instructor and simply cannot be farting while I lecture.

 

I also have to watch what I eat prior to days at school.  Beans and lentils are out.

 

I've had those they are so good! Maybe it's just me but when I grow or buy different looking beans or veggies that to me are pretty to look at, I eat a lot more of them. I think the pre-oral (looking at the food) stage of eating is my favorite I guess...I'm all about pretty food.

 

We buy pretty much anything unusual when we find it.  I recall finding beans grown in Uzbekistan when we were at a market with my youngest son in St Pete.  Why did we purchase those?  Because I'd never had anything from Uzbekistan before (to my knowledge).  Good enough reason!  They tasted quite good and in my younger life I'd even be able to tell you what variety they were.  We used google to get a local recipe to use them in (crock pot recipe).

 

----

 

On a totally different note, but feeling no need for a different post, we were discussing youngest's plans for post graduation (this coming May) on the way home from the airport.  He has a couple of standing job offers, but his original love of flora is resurfacing.  He's going to take "a" job to pay the bills some (while living at home) and "work" to set up a major permaculture farm here and/or nearby (we have another location we think would be perfect - allowing him to work with a non-profit using this sort of system to raise food for volunteers at the farm and for the local food bank - if he can get them, the non-profit, to agree). 

 

I think he'll be awesome at it. He's already done oodles of research and is well versed in what he wants to do. We were brainstorming ways for him to get funding.  He totally has our blessing with this future plan.  Time will tell if it works.

[OrganicJen]

My mother is able to use miso and kombucha to control her IBS a lot of the time. Of course IBS can be caused by any number of things, so what works for one may not work for another.

I don't know about miso, but kombucha is lactofermented, so different from alcohol and usually helpful to the gut so that makes a lot sense.

[OrganicJen]

I also have to watch what I eat prior to days at school. Beans and lentils are out.

 

 

We buy pretty much anything unusual when we find it. I recall finding beans grown in Uzbekistan when we were at a market with my youngest son in St Pete. Why did we purchase those? Because I'd never had anything from Uzbekistan before (to my knowledge). Good enough reason! They tasted quite good and in my younger life I'd even be able to tell you what variety they were. We used google to get a local recipe to use them in (crock pot recipe).

 

----

 

On a totally different note, but feeling no need for a different post, we were discussing youngest's plans for post graduation (this coming May) on the way home from the airport. He has a couple of standing job offers, but his original love of flora is resurfacing. He's going to take "a" job to pay the bills some (while living at home) and "work" to set up a major permaculture farm here and/or nearby (we have another location we think would be perfect - allowing him to work with a non-profit using this sort of system to raise food for volunteers at the farm and for the local food bank - if he can get them, the non-profit, to agree).

 

I think he'll be awesome at it. He's already done oodles of research and is well versed in what he wants to do. We were brainstorming ways for him to get funding. He totally has our blessing with this future plan. Time will tell if it works.

Yay for permaculture, we have had so much success with it. A version of it too, that we use and that not many are familiar with that he may want to look also, is hugelkultur. Also, for low income ways to grow food, Dr. Kratky in Hawaii has been successful with teaching people non circulating hydroponics so they can grow food to sell and to feed themselves with few resources.

 

https://www.permaculture.co.uk/articles/many-benefits-hugelkultur

Edited December 24, 2017 by OrganicJen

[ktgrok]

Just as a PSA, there is a product, called Devrom that you take that makes your farts not stink :)

 

https://devrom.com

[regentrude]

Just as a PSA, there is a product, called Devrom that you take that makes your farts not stink :)

 

https://devrom.com

 

does it also make them noiseless?

[ktgrok]

does it also make them noiseless?

 

no, sorry :)

[SparklyUnicorn]

There's Beano.  And yes I find it works well, but I couldn't nail down how many carbs it "creates".

 

 

[displace]

does it also make them noiseless?

Brains on kids podcast has an episode all on farts. Pretty interesting!

[Bluegoat]

Climate Change

 

How Your Diet Can Save the Planet

 

By Matthew Prescott July 19, 2017

 

..." But the reality is that combating climate change is largely a matter of personal responsibility—and one of the easiest and best steps we can take concerns what we put on our plates.

 

Take protein, for example. Worldwide, over 80 billion land animals are farmed for food. To produce just a single pound of meat, those animals may each eat upwards of 15 pounds of feed—meaning mass meat production funnels far more resources through animals than it gets out of them. One report from the World Resources Institute found that even the most efficient sources of meat convert only around 11% of feed energy into human food.

 

And to grow all that animal feed, the industry is constantly converting more native lands to agricultural operations—burning and clear-cutting the Amazon and other forests to make way for feed fields. Today, a whopping 30% of Earth’s landmass goes to meat, dairy, and egg production, according to the United Nations. As the UN also reports, livestock production causes “an even larger contribution†to climate change “than the transportation sector worldwide.†That’s right: Factory farmed animals contribute more to climate change than all the world’s cars, trucks, trains, planes, and ships combined.

 

And those calculations don’t even include seafood—which is a huge omission. According to data from 1999 to 2007, between 0.97 and 2.74 trillion fish were taken from the oceans annually, dredged up in nets many miles long that are pulled by ships burning huge quantities of fossil fuels. This means that emissions from animal proteins in our diet—land and sea combined—are substantially higher than the already very high numbers commonly reported.

 

It’s also a thirsty system: According to Water Footprint Network data, it takes over 2,000 gallons of water to produce a single steak and over 800 gallons to produce a single glass of milk. Nearly 600 gallons are used to produce just one pound of chicken meat, and nearly 400 gallons go into just one egg..."

http://fortune.com/2017/07/19/climate-change-vegan-vegetarian-diet-humane-society/

 

I find these kinds of commentaries so clumsy - I always wonder if the people who compile them have ever tried farming in a sustainable way.

 

Water, for example.  Water used in agriculture - be it for beef or almonds or oranges - is not somehow lost entirely, or a problem that it is used.  If you eat food with water in it, the water is now in you.  Or it is in the air as the plant releases it, or the cow pisses it out.  

 

The thing is you need agriculture that is sensitive to where it is.  If you live in California where agriculture depends on  drawing down ancient aquifers, the fact that you have intense growing that is shipping this water all over the continent in the form or fruit and veg and nuts is completely mad.  That's the destruction of a local ecosystem.  You also don't want to be polluting bodies of water with agricultural chemicals or agricultural sewage.

 

On the other hand, in another place livestock doesn't damage water supplies because there is lots of it -   the amounts of agricultural products produced are commensurate with available water supplies.  Dairy operations here often use surface water, and a lot of what the cows consume has actually fallen on the field - where it would be even if there were no cows, or crops for that matter.  

 

If you want to look at the amounts of water required to make enough veg and grain to feed people, they also seem shocking - living things are largely composed of water.  But without some context around what that looks like within an actual ecosystem, it's just not very meaningful.  It takes 920 gallons of water just to grow the almonds for one gallon of almond milk, 74 or so for avocados, both grown, often, in areas where water issues cause environmental or social problems.

 

Animals are part of traditional agricultural practices everywhere because they create synergies and efficiencies in the system.  Industrial agriculture has none of these, for animal or plant based agriculture - it's almost universally inefficient and ecologically destructive. But when you look at systems that ltry to be sustainable and as close to closed as possible, there is no reason to think that the ones that are plant only are more sustainable, and some to think they are less so.  That's why even in subsistence farming there is normally an animal component - the farmers aren't using their limited resounds and time just to be luxurious, they are doing it because there is a benefit in terms of productivity.

[Sandwalker]

I find these kinds of commentaries so clumsy - I always wonder if the people who compile them have ever tried farming in a sustainable way.

 

Water, for example. Water used in agriculture - be it for beef or almonds or oranges - is not somehow lost entirely, or a problem that it is used. If you eat food with water in it, the water is now in you. Or it is in the air as the plant releases it, or the cow pisses it out.

 

The thing is you need agriculture that is sensitive to where it is. If you live in California where agriculture depends on drawing down ancient aquifers, the fact that you have intense growing that is shipping this water all over the continent in the form or fruit and veg and nuts is completely mad. That's the destruction of a local ecosystem. You also don't want to be polluting bodies of water with agricultural chemicals or agricultural sewage.

 

On the other hand, in another place livestock doesn't damage water supplies because there is lots of it - the amounts of agricultural products produced are commensurate with available water supplies. Dairy operations here often use surface water, and a lot of what the cows consume has actually fallen on the field - where it would be even if there were no cows, or crops for that matter.

 

If you want to look at the amounts of water required to make enough veg and grain to feed people, they also seem shocking - living things are largely composed of water. But without some context around what that looks like within an actual ecosystem, it's just not very meaningful. It takes 920 gallons of water just to grow the almonds for one gallon of almond milk, 74 or so for avocados, both grown, often, in areas where water issues cause environmental or social problems.

 

Animals are part of traditional agricultural practices everywhere because they create synergies and efficiencies in the system. Industrial agriculture has none of these, for animal or plant based agriculture - it's almost universally inefficient and ecologically destructive. But when you look at systems that ltry to be sustainable and as close to closed as possible, there is no reason to think that the ones that are plant only are more sustainable, and some to think they are less so. That's why even in subsistence farming there is normally an animal component - the farmers aren't using their limited resounds and time just to be luxurious, they are doing it because there is a benefit in terms of productivity.

The vast majority of animals eaten and cow dairy consumed are not produced in a sustainable farming method. There isn't enough land on earth for this to take place if the rate of consumption remains the same.

[poppy]

I'm a longtime vegetarian and my husband is low FODMAPS and basically? We can't eat anything together.

 

I find these kinds of commentaries so clumsy - I always wonder if the people who compile them have ever tried farming in a sustainable way.

 

Water, for example.  Water used in agriculture - be it for beef or almonds or oranges - is not somehow lost entirely, or a problem that it is used.  If you eat food with water in it, the water is now in you.  Or it is in the air as the plant releases it, or the cow pisses it out.  

 

The thing is you need agriculture that is sensitive to where it is.  If you live in California where agriculture depends on  drawing down ancient aquifers, the fact that you have intense growing that is shipping this water all over the continent in the form or fruit and veg and nuts is completely mad.  That's the destruction of a local ecosystem.  You also don't want to be polluting bodies of water with agricultural chemicals or agricultural sewage.

 

On the other hand, in another place livestock doesn't damage water supplies because there is lots of it -   the amounts of agricultural products produced are commensurate with available water supplies.  Dairy operations here often use surface water, and a lot of what the cows consume has actually fallen on the field - where it would be even if there were no cows, or crops for that matter.  

 

If you want to look at the amounts of water required to make enough veg and grain to feed people, they also seem shocking - living things are largely composed of water.  But without some context around what that looks like within an actual ecosystem, it's just not very meaningful.  It takes 920 gallons of water just to grow the almonds for one gallon of almond milk, 74 or so for avocados, both grown, often, in areas where water issues cause environmental or social problems.

 

Animals are part of traditional agricultural practices everywhere because they create synergies and efficiencies in the system.  Industrial agriculture has none of these, for animal or plant based agriculture - it's almost universally inefficient and ecologically destructive. But when you look at systems that ltry to be sustainable and as close to closed as possible, there is no reason to think that the ones that are plant only are more sustainable, and some to think they are less so.  That's why even in subsistence farming there is normally an animal component - the farmers aren't using their limited resounds and time just to be luxurious, they are doing it because there is a benefit in terms of productivity.

 

 

Almost all veg and grain grown is made to feed warehoused animals.   

So if you are saying it takes a lot of water to grow food feed a person.... there are almost 100 million COWS in the US alone, between dairy and beef.     

Vegetarians don't like industrial agriculture and farming, and neither do you.  We are not your enemy.

I live in a farm community and I don't have any problem at all with what the farmers do with their animals (as long as they aren't abusive obviously).

They make the meat I buy for my family.  I don't partake but I don't object.
 

Edited December 26, 2017 by poppy