This is a little bit like the Looting post...ambiguous about it

[Ginevra]

I didn't want to hijack the looting thread. A high school friend of mine (FB "friend") posted a video right before Irma hit. It was meant to be funny I guess. It was a video of him talking about how he was not permitted to get more then 10 sandbags; they were rationed. So, first he approached some "inmates" (his term) who were doing public work and asked them (maybe paid them) to spare him some more sandbags. They complied. Then, he described how he went to a construction site and (well, stole, really is what it is) sand to fill the bags. In the video, he feigns looking around secretively, though he is posting a video in public; IOw, he indicates that this is clearly theft.

 

OTOH, it's hard for me to care about construction sand because a hurricane was bearing down and the sand aint gonna be there afterwards most likely. And high school buddy was not stealing proverbial TVs, he was trying to get around the ration to protect his family.

 

However, I am at least moderately bothered that he posted a video of his theft and I am also bothered that he talks about involving his young boys, getting them to help fill the sandbags. Maybe if you're gonna steal to get around the ration and protect your family, how about don't post a video. I'm also bothered that other friends "liked" it.

[marbel]

That would bother me too.  Logically I guess his actions make sense (other than posting the video about it) under the circumstances.   And you are likely correct about the construction sand. 

 

I would hope that he would have explained to his boys why he was doing what he was doing, and how it is not the same as stealing TVs or otherwise victimizing people who were already suffering because of the storm.  There is some nuance there, I think.  

 

All in all, I guess it's the public aspect of it that bothers me.  Just so tired of every single thing being documented for posterity.  

[heartlikealion]

So he can't go to more than one store to get more than 10? This may be dumb but I sometimes wonder if people can just buy cheap litter instead of sand.

 

I don't know how I feel about the whole sand thing. I wonder how much he took. Not that less is suddenly ok.

[Guest]

So he can't go to more than one store to get more than 10? This may be dumb but I sometimes wonder if people can just buy cheap litter instead of sand.

 

I don't know how I feel about the whole sand thing. I wonder how much he took. Not that less is suddenly ok.

I think the limitation on the number of bags was legit. I am not in the south, but my understanding is that all preparedness materials were very difficult to even find in stock, let alone not rationed. One friend was on FB, begging for extra wing nuts for hurricane shutters because buying them anywhere was not possible.

 

One other friend in FL did tell him before the video that you can fill the bags with mulch. That's what this friend said he did. I don't know how well it works, but that seemed like a good idea to me. Flower beds will be destroyed anyway, so taking the mulch out seems smart to me.

 

He posted the video with his truck bed filled with bags, so he took a pretty large amount. Not that the amount matters, as you said.

[momacacia]

He couldn't also drive a couple hours and get sand? Honestly, I think that's what we'd do to get around a ration like that if we could.enough to protect our home. Reality is, everyone will need a whole heck of a lot more than 10 sandbags to protect *anything*. It's kind of laughable. Are you sure the whole post isn't a joke?

[heartlikealion]

He couldn't also drive a couple hours and get sand? Honestly, I think that's what we'd do to get around a ration like that if we could.enough to protect our home. Reality is, everyone will need a whole heck of a lot more than 10 sandbags to protect *anything*. It's kind of laughable. Are you sure the whole post isn't a joke?

 

From where? The beach? I think it's illegal on the gulf coast to take the sand. Well, the one we used to live near is the longest man made beach and I think it was illegal to take that sand.

 

[Pam in CT]

I'm also a little ambivalent about the act itself.  On its face, it's closer to the Valjean stealing a loaf of bread for his hungry family, than breaking a Big Buy window and stealing a TV.

 

 

 

Posting a video and inviting "likes" glorifies the act.  He's teaching his children, and inviting his friends, and hoping for the wider public, to celebrate the act.  

 

There is no other reason to make and post such a video.  That he invested time and effort making and curating such a video in the midst of his preparations putatively to protect his home and family... suggests to me that preparedness was perhaps not his driving concern in that time.  Indisputably preparedness was, by definition, not his only concern.

 

In a true Valjean situation, theft of necessities like water/food/medical supplies etc may be warranted.  The intentional celebration of theft, no.  

 

 

[Guest]

He couldn't also drive a couple hours and get sand? Honestly, I think that's what we'd do to get around a ration like that if we could.enough to protect our home. Reality is, everyone will need a whole heck of a lot more than 10 sandbags to protect *anything*. It's kind of laughable. Are you sure the whole post isn't a joke?

No, I'm sure the post was not a joke. I mean, it was meant to be funny, I'm sure, because he videoed it in a "comical" sort of way, not a "documentary" sort of way, but I am 100% positively certain that he did need sandbags and sand, they were rationed, and he did by pass the ration by first bribing or begging some public workers for bags and then stealing construction site sand to fill them. I think he was proud of his industriousness in getting around the ration, KWIM?

[creekland]

The video part would definitely bother me too.

 

My uncle (in Naples) tells of seeing folks back their vehicle up to other people's sandbags and just plain taking them.  He said the thing that bothered him the most about  preparing for Irma was how much people were "all about themselves" (at stores or wherever) and blatantly didn't have a "we're all in this together so let's help each other" mentality.  I guess it's similar to how people will react in any disaster or knowing the disaster is coming and it sure isn't pretty.

 

Then glorifying this attitude as if it's something to be liked or praised... scary.

[Guest]

He couldn't also drive a couple hours and get sand? Honestly, I think that's what we'd do to get around a ration like that if we could.enough to protect our home. Reality is, everyone will need a whole heck of a lot more than 10 sandbags to protect *anything*. It's kind of laughable. Are you sure the whole post isn't a joke?

Also, to be fair, I can see why just driving a couple more hours to try and get sand legitimately would be a difficult decision to make. For one thing, someone facing down a huge hurricane has many problems to solve and it isn't prudent to spend too much time and too many resources solving just one problem. Secondly, gasoline was also difficult to find and I'm sure it would be difficult to consume a half tank of gas going somewhere else where you may still not acquire the needed materials. I can't say it wouldn't cross my mind as I drove past a construction site with sand that is going to be washed away by tomorrow morning.

 

I am ambivalent about taking the sand; it does seems sort of a grey area under the circumstances. But videoing it and making it "funny" and involving his sons I have a bigger problem with.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Who rationed the sandbags? Was it a government distribution effort? Could you still go to Home Depot yourself to buy bags and sand? I don't know how this works.

 

 

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[Guest]

Who rationed the sandbags? Was it a government distribution effort? Could you still go to Home Depot yourself to buy bags and sand? I don't know how this works.

 

 

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My understanding was Home Depot was rationing them. But I cannot be certain. What I do know is that needed materials were out of stock at most big stores like Home Depot and many gas stations were out of gas. And there was also bumper-to-bumper traffic on major roadways, so I imagine it was not that easy to just go to a different store.

 

I don't know for certain as I was not there and don't live in an area under much threat from hurricanes ever.

[JudoMom]

It's the video that crosses the line.  I understand he needed the sand and the bags. The fact is he stole from a company (I might do the same in his circumstances).  He should contact them and offer reimbursement when things have settled down, not post a video glorifying his (needed) theft.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

My understanding was Home Depot was rationing them. But I cannot be certain. What I do know is that needed materials were out of stock at most big stores like Home Depot and many gas stations were out of gas. And there was also bumper-to-bumper traffic on major roadways, so I imagine it was not that easy to just go to a different store.

 

I don't know for certain as I was not there and don't live in an area under much threat from hurricanes ever.

 

Thanks.  I don't live in an area that gets hurricanes. 

 

Before I resorted to theft and the public posting of the theft, I would get kitty litter bags to use as sand bags.  Or I would fill garbage bags with mulch or mud.  The point is to have something heavy that won't be moved if hit by water, I believe.  It requires thinking outside the box sometimes but doesn't require thinking outside the legal box. 

[Guest]

It's the video that crosses the line. I understand he needed the sand and the bags. The fact is he stole from a company (I might do the same in his circumstances). He should contact them and offer reimbursement when things have settled down, not post a video glorifying his (needed) theft.

 

 

Exactly. You articulated my feelings on it well.

[Arcadia]

It is theft under mitigating circumstances. Posting a video cross the line though to doing it for bragging rights rather than mitigating circumstances.

 

Here we get free rationed sandbags when risk of flooding is high. There are a few collection places to go to and some might look at ID just to verify you are staying in a high risk zone. I'm staying in a condo complex on the upper floors so it would be weird for us to get the free sandbags as the communal garage would have to flood above 3m (10 feet) before the ground floor residential units are breached by flood waters. The single family homes nearby are also on a low risk zone.

[Alisa in Florida]

No stores around here had sand bags or sand. I even tried ordering bags online, but couldn't get them in time. The counties and towns around here set up distribution sites, but limit each resident to 10 or so bags. It was 12 in my town, but that's not enough to even bother with. You have to bring a shovel and fill your bags from the piles of sand at the distribution sites. The lines to get those 10 bags were also ridiculous. People were waiting in line for hours with temperatures in the 90s. I just did without, but I'm not in a flood prone area. I can understand why your friend resorted to that, but I wouldn't have posted it on social media.

[Guest]

No stores around here had sand bags or sand. I even tried ordering bags online, but couldn't get them in time. The counties and towns around here set up distribution sites, but limit each resident to 10 or so bags. It was 12 in my town, but that's not enough to even bother with. You have to bring a shovel and fill your bags from the piles of sand at the distribution sites. The lines to get those 10 bags were also ridiculous. People were waiting in line for hours with temperatures in the 90s. I just did without, but I'm not in a flood prone area. I can understand why your friend resorted to that, but I wouldn't have posted it on social media.

 

Thank you so much for explaining that from someone who is there.

[TravelingChris]

No to posting on social media. Yes to reimbursing company.  

 

As to on your own mentioned by Creekland- We were taking a walk together on one of the days Irma was here through our neighborhood. Dh noticed that another neighbor has ham radio antenna.  I then thought about who I do know lives in my neighborhood and said I think our neighborhood would do well in a disaster because of who lives around us.  Our disasters are likely to be tornadoes.  We can't do all that much to prepare except have emergency rations and supplies.  There are constant messages in the Spring and Fall to do emergency prep.  We have a tax free holiday for emergency prep every six months.  I don't know what happened in April 2011 here because we only moved here a few months later.  Our power was out for 10 days in our city because all the giant transmission lines were destroyed, nuclear power plant was nearly hit and while it wasn't damaged, all power lines from it were down, and we weren't the worse hit since the tornado didn't hit our city just tons of places around us and throughout the state and throughout our neighboring states as well.  I don't know if marauding gangs did anything.  I don't think so but if it ever came to that, I think people in our city would not be at all sympathetic to things like attacking homes and businesses while everyone was trying to help others,  

[SKL]

I'm gonna say he probably would not be unwilling to pay for the stolen sand should the construction company send him a bill.  And/or return the sand after the storm.  So in that sense I could see him feeling like he was only borrowing it - and probably the owner would have lent it if asked.

 

I dunno.  I think the part that would bother me most is that he is doing this for himself but others can just suck it up.  I would feel better about it if he made those sandbags and shared them with his neighbors.  Or if he was doing it to save the people in the old folks' home.

 

Not sure what to think about the ration of 10 bags.  Is that enough to make a difference for anyone?  But even if it isn't, it doesn't seem right to let the first person buy it all.  I could see donating it to a place housing highly vulnerable people.

[stephanier.1765]

10 bags are enough to protect your front and back door (forget the garage) from a few inches of water. Any more water than that you're sunk.

[Arcadia]

From my county's water district

"Residents are advised that sandbags are most effective when used to prevent flooding from one foot or less of water from entering a home or business through doorways and garage door openings; and are cautioned to take only 20 to 30 bags per vehicle. Please take only what you need.

 

Sandbag sites run by the water district, cities or the county are operated on the honor system as a flood protection service to residents." http://www.valleywater.org/sandbags/

 

They also put up a 6 page PDF guide FloodSAFE: Sandbag Guidelines for Homeowners http://www.valleywater.org/Services/Flood_Protection/Sandbags/Sandbag_Guidelines_for_Homeowners.aspx

[Ausmumof3]

It's a bit ridiculous that there weren't enough sandbags. Heck we had a storm that wasn't even hurricane level and some flooding and the military flew sandbags in as I understand it.

 

That said if there weren't enough and he took more than his share someone else missed out.

[eternalsummer]

Getting around the ration is selfish.  I can understand selfishness if it is a matter of life or death, but what you are saying when it is just protection of property is that you will lie or whatever to protect your property at the expense of someone else's.  Sucks that he didn't think to ask the construction company for sand a few days before the hurricane.

[Jean in Newcastle]

You don't have to put sand in an official sandbag for it to work. I doubt all stores were out of Hefty bags and the like. (You just wouldn't fill them all the way because it would get too heavy. )

 

 

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[poppy]

He sounds like a really lousy human being to me.   Bragging about taking advantage of the generosity of people in a disaster so his family "wins" while his neighbors don't get anything.   Jackass.

Edited September 15, 2017 by poppy