If you do allow teen dating- question

[Farrar]

As others are saying, I find the whole "boy pays when out with a girl" assumption absurd, sexist, outdated, and setting girls up for an expectation of "paying" in other ways down the line. 

 

Some of this is obviously about money and privilege. As in, they're a teenage couple, so it's not like they need to do their finances. I had a few friends like this in high school - like one guy who had a really obscenely large allowance. If we were all hanging out, those kids would be like, let's go to Nice Restaurant instead of Waffle House/Taco Bell because by the time you get a decent meal, it's all about the same. Um, no!!! If you're dirt poor, it's TOTALLY DIFFERENT. I had too many times that I was out with those kids and just sat there and watched everyone else eat and uncomfortably proclaimed how hungry I wasn't. But to them, the difference between putting down a couple dollars and twice as much wasn't that big like it was to me or some other friends. But they can't see it or get it and it takes a lot more life experience than being 17 for a lot of people unless their parents raised them to think that way constantly (which I don't think most parents do).

 

But I think most of it is about speaking up in the relationship. His concept of his choices - break up with her or pay up - seems really, really black and white (like kids are...). Since she has expressed that she would like to "get it" there's obviously another option, which is keep the conversation going with her and stand up for himself. He's got to get himself out of the idea of that if he talks to her, he's dumped. I mean, it's possible, yeah, but it doesn't sound like it's automatic. She's hardly been issuing ultimatums.

[teachermom2834]

Boy, that's a tough situation. I do think there's an aspect of this that a lot of folks have skipped over -- he didn't know it would be so expensive. Maybe she didn't either. Probably it isn't the kind of restaurant that has the menu posted outside, and I'm guessing that a teenager doesn't know all the conventions that point to the expensive of any given restaurant. I can see how it would be really, really hard to leave after having been seated and handed a menu. I don't think I've ever done that.

 

Maybe the lesson is to always "check the online reviews" of any new restaurant before trying it out, which is code for googling for prices before agreeing to go.

 

Best of luck whatever happens.

To this point- I totally get that my ds did not anticipate the expense. I asked him that and he admitted he had no idea it would be that expensive. He has never been to a place like that so how would he know it was even possible.? Lol. I told him he should not feel bad about that. Live and learn. Most people have the experience of getting into something that was far more expensive than imagined and sometimes you just have to roll with it and chalk it up to a lesson learned. Everyone makes mistakes that cost money at some point. Live and learn.

 

Now, this is a favorite of hers so she knew...but if she doesn't pay for anything she really doesn't know. YKWIM? It is the special occasion place for her family so she knew it was special and I honestly think she just wanted a special date. But social norma dictate that you don't plan a special date for someone else to pay for. But i honestly think there is a disconnect there. Not mean. Just ignorant of the bigger picture. We'll see how it plays out.

[teachermom2834]

As others are saying, I find the whole "boy pays when out with a girl" assumption absurd, sexist, outdated, and setting girls up for an expectation of "paying" in other ways down the line.

 

Some of this is obviously about money and privilege. As in, they're a teenage couple, so it's not like they need to do their finances. I had a few friends like this in high school - like one guy who had a really obscenely large allowance. If we were all hanging out, those kids would be like, let's go to Nice Restaurant instead of Waffle House/Taco Bell because by the time you get a decent meal, it's all about the same. Um, no!!! If you're dirt poor, it's TOTALLY DIFFERENT. I had too many times that I was out with those kids and just sat there and watched everyone else eat and uncomfortably proclaimed how hungry I wasn't. But to them, the difference between putting down a couple dollars and twice as much wasn't that big like it was to me or some other friends. But they can't see it or get it and it takes a lot more life experience than being 17 for a lot of people unless their parents raised them to think that way constantly (which I don't think most parents do).

 

But I think most of it is about speaking up in the relationship. His concept of his choices - break up with her or pay up - seems really, really black and white (like kids are...). Since she has expressed that she would like to "get it" there's obviously another option, which is keep the conversation going with her and stand up for himself. He's got to get himself out of the idea of that if he talks to her, he's dumped. I mean, it's possible, yeah, but it doesn't sound like it's automatic. She's hardly been issuing ultimatums.

Yes- speaking up is really the ultimate issue. He had a previous girlfriend who he would not speak up to at all and she had extreme demands and it got a little crazy. He is doing much better in this relationship and he has spoken up to her about a few things. Still work to do. He is always so surprised when he can have a conversation with her and it doesn't get crazy. She does listen and say she will try. Which I honestly appreciate. I would like to see him continue to work through this because they have had some mature and positive interactions. ( continue it not because I am thinking of a marital partner but because I think it is a decent relationship and there is something to be learned from it).

[nixpix5]

You have handled this very well. It seems you have a nice balance between being a listening ear, giving wise counsel and helping him to consider if she is worth having a harder conversation in his relationship. This is wonderful practice for marriage, navigating conversations in a job and so forth. So while discouraging, it is a wonderful life lesson for both of them.

 

If she is sweet and they care for each other, it might be worth coaching him through a frank conversation with her. If she has lived privilege she may have no idea what she is even doing. Both of my sons fell on the side of old fashioned chivalry and liked paying for dates. However, in those cases they would often plan the date or get ideas in advance from their girlfriends and choose the place that made the most financial sense. As they progressed in their relationship, they got comfortable sharing expenses. I would say now they pay for about 70% and their long time girlfriends pay the other portion.

 

My heart goes out to your son. He sounds like a level headed guy and if he cares for her this must feel daunting for him.

[MommyLiberty5013]

I liked this discussion. Wanted to add a suggestion for your DS that he use the TripAdvisor app to find cool, special date places that won't break the piggy bank. They are out there! Then he can still look cool for going someplace besides Applebee's or another chain place that may still be less expensive.

[Tanaqui]

If one person is always paying, then you run the risk of the relationship feeling unequal. Unethical people sometimes deliberately cultivate unequal relationships so they can create a feeling of obligation in the other party. I would definitely discourage my kids from being in a serious relationship where the other person always pays, unless there's a real imbalance in their real-world finances.

[marbel]

I'm surprised by the expectation that the boy pays, always.  I last dated in the 90's and that wasn't at all typical, at least in my circle which was working adults, not high school kids.  There are different kinds of dates, too, right?  We'd sometimes meet in a coffeehouse or pub and would either buy our own or take turns.  If that turned into dinner, we'd pick a place together and go dutch. Or one might say "I'll get this one" and the other would make a mental note that next time it was their turn.   When we went to something that required tickets, one would get those, and the other would pay for dinner or food at the ball game or whatever.  On a more formal date ("I'd like to take you out to dinner for your birthday"), the person initiating the date would pay.  

 

I do remember one casual "hey, let's go get dinner" date  where we were surprised by the bill.  I had one of those coupon books with buy-one-get-one-free dinner deals.  Well we ended up ordering wine, an appetizer, and dessert, so.... cha-ching!  I was a bit embarrassed because I'd suggested the place.  He said he was the one who wanted to order the expensive extras.  I don't remember who paid.   That became our special occasion dinner place after we got married.  :-)  

 

 

 

If one person is always paying, then you run the risk of the relationship feeling unequal.

 

I agree with this.  I think that's true in any friendship, not just dating.  Way back when I was first working, as an office clerk, I became friends with one of the engineers at the company. She had much more financial flexibility than I had, and sometimes it was difficult for me because she'd want to pay my way and I didn't like that, while she didn't understand the problem. We worked it out and were even roommates for a time, till she got married.  :-)

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2017 by marbel

[teachermom2834]

I'm surprised by the expectation that the boy pays, always. I last dated in the 90's and that wasn't at all typical, at least in my circle which was working adults, not high school kids. There are different kinds of dates, too, right? We'd sometimes meet in a coffeehouse or pub and would either buy our own or take turns. If that turned into dinner, we'd pick a place together and go dutch. Or one might say "I'll get this one" and the other would make a mental note that next time it was their turn. When we went to something that required tickets, one would get those, and the other would pay for dinner or food at the ball game or whatever. On a more formal date ("I'd like to take you out to dinner for your birthday"), the person initiating the date would pay.

 

I do remember one casual "hey, let's go get dinner" date where we were surprised by the bill. I had one of those coupon books with buy-one-get-one-free dinner deals. Well we ended up ordering wine, an appetizer, and dessert, so.... cha-ching! I was a bit embarrassed because I'd suggested the place. He said he was the one who wanted to order the expensive extras. I don't remember who paid. That became our special occasion dinner place after we got married. :-)

 

 

 

 

I agree with this. I think that's true in any friendship, not just dating. Way back when I was first working, as an office clerk, I became friends with one of the engineers at the company. She had much more financial flexibility than I had, and sometimes it was difficult for me because she'd want to pay my way and I didn't like that, while she didn't understand the problem. We worked it out and were even roommates for a time, till she got married. :-)

I am also surprised by the expectation that the boys always pays. I know others here have explained it but I admit I can't really get my brain around it it. That's ok - different strokes for different folks and all that.

 

My oldest ds would just not date someone like that. He works a ton and scrimps and saves and would find it disrespectful and feel taken advantage of. He is a great kid and sweet. Last night he sent a care package to his gf who is far away working as a camp counselor and missing some favorite foods. He is an absolute catch of a boyfriend/man/marriage partner but he doesn't want to spoil a princess. So funny that he would be an unworthy partner to so many of you. It is fine, I'm not offended. He is in a good equitable relationship with a strong independent woman. He isn't cheap, but he totally digs that she takes care of herself.

 

Next ds, the one who is the subject of this post, really likes doing the chivalrous thing. It is not my preference that he pay all the expenses but as long as he can afford it, he wants to do it. Fine. As the mom, it would mean a lot to me if the gf would occasionally pick up a tab, if every fifth date or so she said "let me treat you" that would go along way in my mind toward not feeling taken advantage of. Or if she just showed up with lunch she had made or takeout once in a blue moon. Those things would make me feel, as a mom, that my ds was valued.

 

I realize there are differing views on this. I do find it strange(maybe sad) that so many people feel so strongly about the boy always paying. It's ok- our kids aren't matches. But I'm telling you, I have some fantastic boys in my home that just can't or won't pass that test. As their mom I feel like the girl has missed out. Lol. Of course y'all would not feel that way because you would think my kid is a heel. Different strokes!

[Lawana]

As the mother of a son and daughter, I feel the most comfortable overall when dating expenses are shared.

 

Most of ds's friends are from a higher ses than us. It is awkward at times, but he does his best to negotiate the differences.

[marbel]

<snip>

 

My oldest ds would just not date someone like that. He works a ton and scrimps and saves and would find it disrespectful and feel taken advantage of. He is a great kid and sweet. Last night he sent a care package to his gf who is far away working as a camp counselor and missing some favorite foods. He is an absolute catch of a boyfriend/man/marriage partner but he doesn't want to spoil a princess. So funny that he would be an unworthy partner to so many of you. It is fine, I'm not offended. He is in a good equitable relationship with a strong independent woman. He isn't cheap, but he totally digs that she takes care of herself.

 

<snip>

 

My husband and I have talked with both our kids about "high-maintenance" people.  We don't want them to be those people, and we want them to steer clear of them too.  I would caution my son against a girl who expected him to pay for everything. I would also caution my daughter against a boy who expected that of her, but in our culture it's not as typical, at least in my experience.   

[teachermom2834]

My husband and I have talked with both our kids about "high-maintenance" people. We don't want them to be those people, and we want them to steer clear of them too. I would caution my son against a girl who expected him to pay for everything. I would also caution my daughter against a boy who expected that of her, but in our culture it's not as typical, at least in my experience.

You are singing my song.

[MBM]

My boys have always paid for their dates but definitely not with the expectation of getting sex in return. They each earned the money themselves and used some of it for dating. They also had a few expensive dates -- prom, special occasions -- that they paid for. The girlfriends were always careful about the cost of activities, though.

[Joker]

Ds and his girlfriend either each pay for their own meal or one will pay for food and the other pays for the movie type arrangement. Neither has a lot of money and ds wouldn't end up doing much with her if he had to pay for everything.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Joker

[StephanieZ]

My husband and I have talked with both our kids about "high-maintenance" people.  We don't want them to be those people, and we want them to steer clear of them too.  I would caution my son against a girl who expected him to pay for everything. I would also caution my daughter against a boy who expected that of her, but in our culture it's not as typical, at least in my experience.   

 

LOLOL, I'm a high maintenance wife. Always have been. Always will be. Apparently, my dh *likes* being able to meet my high maintenance needs, lol.

 

I'm not selfish . . . I give at least as good as I get/want/demand . . . But I get/want/demand a *lot*

 

I'm totally cool with high maintenance friends/partners. I think that is very much a personality preference . . . High maintenance can correlate with high intensity. Some folks just thrive on the intensity; others on the mellow . . . 

 

I don't think either is good or bad, but knowing your preference is helpful . . . Because if you thrive on intensity, you can choose someone who is intense/high maintenance . . . and also generous & reciprocal (I.e., intensely loving) . . . or you can choose someone who is just intensely selfish and demanding (i.e., just intensely taking). . . 

Edited July 2, 2017 by StephanieZ

[marbel]

LOLOL, I'm a high maintenance wife. Always have been. Always will be. Apparently, my dh *likes* being able to meet my high maintenance needs, lol.

 

I'm not selfish . . . I give at least as good as I get/want/demand . . . But I get/want/demand a *lot*

 

<snip>

 

We might have different definitions of high maintenance people.

 

The people I'm thinking of require/demand a lot from their partners, but do not feel any need to reciprocate.  They are takers, feeling entitled to all the gifts, attention, etc.  

 

As an example:  a woman expecting big gifts, a very nice dinner out, bouquet of red roses, etc for Valentine's Day, but gives nothing to her boyfriend/spouse/whatever because... why would she?  She deserves it all.

[unsinkable]

I don't think it's fair to assume that just because a guy pays for dates that he is expecting sexual favors in return. There are lots of boys and men who think it's gentlemanly to pay for their dates and have no expectations of anything further.

 

If a guy is pressuring a girl to have sex with him because he paid for their date, it's because he's an obnoxious idiot, and he would most likely be pressuring her for sex even if she had paid for the date.

And it certainly isn't the "culture" of the United States. There might be people who think that (girls owe their dates sex) but that is their own sick, twisted belief, not the belief of this country.

[Lawana]

And it certainly isn't the "culture" of the United States. There might be people who think that (girls owe their dates sex) but that is their own sick, twisted belief, not the belief of this country.

I have lived in the intermountain West, the Midwest, and the South, and have come across that attitude in all of those places. It is not universal, by any means, but it certainly exists as a part of the culture.

[Catwoman]

I have lived in the intermountain West, the Midwest, and the South, and have come across that attitude in all of those places. It is not universal, by any means, but it certainly exists as a part of the culture.

I think it just shows that no matter where you go in the world, some people are going to be idiots.

[Lady Florida.]

My son isn't dating anyone now plus he's 19 (almost 20) so past the "allowing" age. However, he was dating a girl when he was 16-17. In this day and age it's fairly equitable, at least in my area. Most of the time he paid, but often she paid or they split the cost. And she would never have insisted he take her some place she couldn't afford. She doesn't come from an affluent family but they do have more disposable income than we do, and she still wouldn't have done that kind of thing. If she really wanted to "grab a bite" for $75 she would have insisted on paying.

 

I'm sorry for your son, and I tend to agree with others. If he can't tell her these places aren't affordable there's a problem in the relationship. Also, consider the implications if this relationship lasts. Will she insist on the kind of lifestyle she's accustomed to? Will she expect him to provide that lifestyle without her help (aka both of them with a decent paying job)? 

 

I would stay out of it unless I was providing the money, but I know that as a parent it's hard to just sit on the sidelines and watch someone take advantage of your kid like that. Unless she's completely clueless (which is possible considering her upbringing) then she is taking advantage of him. And if she is in fact clueless she still needs to be willing to listen and accept his limits.

[Tap]

Sounds like the situation is already being handled gracefully.   :thumbup:

 

My kids and their dates, each help pay for a portion.  Sometimes one person pays more, sometimes the other pays more.  It really just depends on who has what, and what the event is.  

 

DD18 works all year long, her boyfriend works in the summer and gets generous cash gifts from grandparents throughout the year.  I would guess they pay out equal amounts of money for dates and such. He likes to cook, so quite often she will buy the food and he will cook it for them.  Due to this, they can eat nicer dinners more often than a normal teenage budget would allow. I think it is a great way for them to make their situation work in the long run.  He is planning to attend medical school, she is thinking similar or engineering.  They both have many years of being broke students ahead of them. LOL 

 

DS22 is a broke college student and so is the girl he is dating. They do more cheap dates than anything.  For instance, they will both pack a lunch and they will meet on her lunch hour from work and eat together (she works near our home). The first few casual dates were dutch but over time, he has started to pay more. He lets her pay for somethings, but he prefers to pay for the bulk of their actual dates.  He lives at home and she has an apartment.  She makes more money than he does, but has more outgoing expenses too. My son hopes his future wife will work until they have children and then hopefully, she can stay home and raise the children.  Or they can both work and care for the children, with minimal daycare.  He is a youth pastor, his current girlfriend is certified pre-school teacher at a Christian school. They both adore children, so it isn't a gender role issue, just a priority to both of them.  This is more than you asked but I see that their style of handling finances while dating, is setting up how money will be handled in the future if they stay together. 

 

My kids both save 50% of their income for long term goals like college (their own idea-not forced by me), 25% for short term goals, and 25% for fun money. That doesn't leave them with a lot of fun money, but enough to still have fun with friends or on dates.  

Edited July 2, 2017 by Tap

[Tanaqui]

As an example:  a woman expecting big gifts, a very nice dinner out, bouquet of red roses, etc for Valentine's Day, but gives nothing to her boyfriend/spouse/whatever because... why would she?  She deserves it all.

 

Or she might think that she is the one who does the bulk of the housework (despite the fact that they both have full-time jobs) and she is the one who keeps them in touch with family (both hers and his) and she's the one who baked a cake on his birthday (and on hers, for that matter), and he can step up and do some of the emotional labor for a change.

[Meriwether]

For us, the guy pays - as a general rule. It indicates a general willingness to be a provider. If traditional roles aren't important to either side, then it wouldn't be a consideration.

When Dh and I were dating, he had almost no money. We both grew up poor. He was paying for college as he was going through. I had scholarships. I would pay for some things (even bought him a suit when he needed it for interviews) because I had more money, but we very rarely spent money on dates. We went dutch to an amusement park one day. We went to a few movies at the cheap theater and a couple to a nicer theater, which he paid for. We very occasionally ate out, which he paid for. He took me on one fairly expensive date, but that may have been after he graduated and was working. We took a lot of walks. We studied together. We hung out with friends at free venues. We played cards with my sister and her fiance. So, when we chose to do something he couldn't afford, I paid. Otherwise, he paid, but I did not expect him to spend more than he had. He showed that he was willing to bear the financial burden. I showed that I was willing to accept what he could provide, and that I was willing to help when necessary. And I don't want to make it sound like I was rolling money and holding back. After books and tuition, I had about $2000 a year to pay for rent, food, fun, etc. Neither one of us had money to burn.

Dd14 isn't dating yet but will probably be soon. While she is young and mostly just hanging out, I would expect that the one inviting pays or they split, depending on the situation. When she is older and dating is more serious, I wouldn't be surprised if she and the others follow our pattern, with the guy paying within reason.