"Women and men cannot ever be friends." Agree or disagree

[Melissa in Australia]

I cannot understand how married people have time for friends at all whatever their sex. I know I don't, not to the same level as DH.  

I guess not everyone has 8 children, three of them foster children with high needs.......

 

Friends take time. I never have time. All my friends are on this forum and I can choose how often I visit here to mix.

 

 

 

I never made friends pre married either- maybe it is just me.

 

[lovinmyboys]

I suppose I can't imagine the conversation. 'I don't think you should travel to London and have dinner alone with your colleague. It might look bad, or she might come on to you, and that could be unpleasant to deal with.'

Which is why I have never had the conversation with Dh. I don't think it would go well. I have no problem with my Dh traveling to a European city with a female and sharing a cab and going to dinner and doing anything related to his job. I didn't really like him getting drinks at the hotel bar with her. I don't have a good reason to not like it. I just don't. so, I came here to explore my feelings about it and didn't say anything to Dh.

[creekland]

As the OP in the original thread, I wonder if some of my "unease" is because of the stage of life we are in. I said I was a little annoyed that Dh went out for drinks with a female colleague. Right now we have four youngish children and Dh and I never go out for drinks. I sorta think if he is going to to go get drinks with a female it should be me 😀. When we are older and our kids are raised I don't think I would care at all. In fact I would probably be glad he had other friends. Dh is an extreme extravert and I am not, so as long as I am getting my time with him I don't care who else he spends time with.

 

Dh has been deployed (reservist) for 4 years of our 14 year marriage. None of our couple or male friends have "dropped" me while he was gone. They invited me to do things, helped me get heavy things out of the attic, took my kids places, texted to check on me, etc. But none of my male friends invited me for drinks at a hotel bar while he was gone. I think people can be friends while still not doing everything that friends sometimes do together. I was very glad to still have that community and had friends dropped me it would have been very hard. But, I didn't need a dinner with a male friend to show me I was still included.

 

Regarding your second paragraph, what friends do together doesn't have to mimic TV and be dinner out or drinks in a bar.  I rarely do any of those with my friends (sometimes with lunch or dinner, but never with the bar - cause I just don't go to bars - even with hubby).  Friends do what they like to do.  For us, that tends to be Board Games, working with ponies, or similar.  When at the beach it tends to be beach walks.  For my mom, it's going out to see shows or going to the casino.

 

With your first paragraph... it's early morning, so perhaps I don't have my "stay out of it" guidelines activated... therefore, I'm going to suggest it anyway.  See if you can get a sitter and go out with your hubby - to get drinks if that's what he wants.  The chief reason I've seen in divorces IRL - esp those coming from affairs - is that the new person DID things with the cheater and their original spouse did not.  It could be dinners out.  It could be drinks.  It could be walks, games, talks, movies - whatever.  The cheater found themselves longing for a life they weren't getting at home.  Those who got similar activities at home had no problem staying the course (unless they weren't interested in monogamy period).

 

When hubby and I were married we made it a point to ALWAYS go out to eat on the day of the month we were married on (same calendar date every month).  When we could, we went out more often, but when money was tight and kids needed attention, we still had that commitment together to spend time together - we just made it as cheap as possible.  I recall going to Taco Bell and sharing a Nacho meal once cause that's all we could afford.  (A friend babysat our youngsters for free.)  There are times in ones lives when one has to make an effort.  Expecting both partners to give up everything all the time is just asking too much.

 

Not only will he feel the fun and love with you, you won't be as jealous that he's having fun with someone else.  Win-win - and very worth the effort of a sitter.

 

If you have friends, can you set up an "I'll watch yours and you watch mine?" deal so both of you can benefit (different days, of course).  We did that.  It helped keep things affordable.

 

Hopping off my makeshift soapbox now...

[Scarlett]

Who mentioned abandoning anyone? I'm totally confused as to where that implication came from? The only friends I've cut off over the years are the drama llamas and the ones who I grew apart from naturally, usually because our values and lifestyles no longer meshed (like when they're going for their third degree in one state and I'm having my third baby in another, and there's just not much time to talk or commonality to do it with).

 

Creekland *asked* what would happen if I lived another few decades and had friends losing their spouses, if I would still be their friends because we were originally couple friends. I answered in the affirmative and remembered some people in our lives I hadn't thought of the first time around who that had actually happened to. When I think of single friends, or friends of only one of us, my brain thinks he younger set. But we have plenty of friends in their fifth, sixth, and seventh decade and some are alone. We are still close with them and the lack of spouse hasn't made a difference.

 

Interestingly there is a bigger gap between younger never marrieds and myself than the older divorced or widowed ones. Maybe something about having walked through partnership and families, regardless of whether they're still around, changes a person. Who knows?

 

But anyway, I resent the implication we would ditch a friend because they weren't married or whatever. That's flat out not true, and never will be. I'll end friendships for all sorts of valid reasons and marital status or age aren't on that list. Sheesh,

Right there with you.

[Scarlett]

As the OP in the original thread, I wonder if some of my "unease" is because of the stage of life we are in. I said I was a little annoyed that Dh went out for drinks with a female colleague. Right now we have four youngish children and Dh and I never go out for drinks. I sorta think if he is going to to go get drinks with a female it should be me 😀. When we are older and our kids are raised I don't think I would care at all. In fact I would probably be glad he had other friends. Dh is an extreme extravert and I am not, so as long as I am getting my time with him I don't care who else he spends time with.

 

Dh has been deployed (reservist) for 4 years of our 14 year marriage. None of our couple or male friends have "dropped" me while he was gone. They invited me to do things, helped me get heavy things out of the attic, took my kids places, texted to check on me, etc. But none of my male friends invited me for drinks at a hotel bar while he was gone. I think people can be friends while still not doing everything that friends sometimes do together. I was very glad to still have that community and had friends dropped me it would have been very hard. But, I didn't need a dinner with a male friend to show me I was still included.

I mentioned this in another post to you but you may have missed it. I hope you will address your concerns with your Dh. It need not be an accusatory or complaining conversation but he deserves to know how you feel about it.

[creekland]

Who mentioned abandoning anyone? I'm totally confused as to where that implication came from? 

 

I asked because I was curious.  Abandonment from friends (esp other couples) is one of the frequent things mentioned by spouses I know who find themselves alone.  I've often wondered why it happens and these threads have me wondering if a major part of the reason is some who are worried about "how it looks" if the surviving spouse is the other gender.

 

There's nothing specific about asking you except you posted that the majority of your friends are couples...  That makes sense with your age (compared to mine or those older than me), but is it something else too?

 

You answered... no issues on my part.

 

For others reading, perhaps this topic can get them remembering those left alone and including them if some have dropped off their radars.  That would be a plus.

[Guest]

Regarding your second paragraph, what friends do together doesn't have to mimic TV and be dinner out or drinks in a bar.  I rarely do any of those with my friends (sometimes with lunch or dinner, but never with the bar - cause I just don't go to bars - even with hubby).  Friends do what they like to do.  For us, that tends to be Board Games, working with ponies, or similar.  When at the beach it tends to be beach walks.  For my mom, it's going out to see shows or going to the casino.

 

With your first paragraph... it's early morning, so perhaps I don't have my "stay out of it" guidelines activated... therefore, I'm going to suggest it anyway.  See if you can get a sitter and go out with your hubby - to get drinks if that's what he wants.  The chief reason I've seen in divorces IRL - esp those coming from affairs - is that the new person DID things with the cheater and their original spouse did not.  It could be dinners out.  It could be drinks.  It could be walks, games, talks, movies - whatever.  The cheater found themselves longing for a life they weren't getting at home.  Those who got similar activities at home had no problem staying the course (unless they weren't interested in monogamy period).

 

When hubby and I were married we made it a point to ALWAYS go out to eat on the day of the month we were married on (same calendar date every month).  When we could, we went out more often, but when money was tight and kids needed attention, we still had that commitment together to spend time together - we just made it as cheap as possible.  I recall going to Taco Bell and sharing a Nacho meal once cause that's all we could afford.  (A friend babysat our youngsters for free.)  There are times in ones lives when one has to make an effort.  Expecting both partners to give up everything all the time is just asking too much.

 

Not only will he feel the fun and love with you, you won't be as jealous that he's having fun with someone else.  Win-win - and very worth the effort of a sitter.

 

If you have friends, can you set up an "I'll watch yours and you watch mine?" deal so both of you can benefit (different days, of course).  We did that.  It helped keep things affordable.

 

Hopping off my makeshift soapbox now...

 

Well, it's not "expecting someone to give up everything all the time" to not want to go bowling or whatever with them.

 

I do take your point.

 

But  I think you're generalization is off-base.

 

If the wife doesn't want this one thing...if it's just one toe too far over the line for her, the husband should not get drinks in a hotel bar with that woman. This does not preclude keeping the lines of communication open, it doesn't mean the wife is a jealous lunatic (or jealous at all), it doesn't mean anything except what the wife says it means, and if that's "I just don't like it," if she's not in the HABIT of making requests about his personal time, then there is no problem. A reasonable and easy to execute request that will give your spouse peace of mind is priceless. [note: a blanket ban or chaperone policy is not at all what I'm talking about, because it is to my mind  unreasonable by definition]

 

As to the italic, I can tell you that not all people will only go out with their spouse if the spouse makes the effort to go out and do what they want to do. They'll go out with the spouse on Wednesday and the other person on Friday. I can hear people saying well their honey doesn't have unlimited time/money, but... see if you're cornering them in to going with you--and remember in this situation you didn't really want to go in the first place-- so that there are no resources to go with the other person, now you're practicing manipulation. See: relationships are complicated. Much better imo to say "Hey babe, it makes me uncomfortable when you go to bars alone with women [or with specific woman], can you please do something else instead, or include more people, or something?"

 

 

-----------------

 

ROSIE I love that 'crush' article. This is what I am saying. People's minds run off with them and then they *need* to let someone/everyone know. So unnecessary.

[Bluegoat]

But as a married person no one other than my husband could be a sexual partner. And as a married person no one other than me could be my husband's sexual partner. That's a decision we both made when we made our marriage vows. It's a decision that holds weight for us.

 

I don't know that it is that simple.  People plan to diet, or not yell at their kids, or even things like never intend to steal money, and then they do them.  They have one night stands they didn't plan and feel bad about.  Being married doesn't alter human nature that much.

 

But more than just cheating, people can find themselves, unexpectedly, more emotionally attached than they intended, or that the other person is.  That may not be the end of the world, but it also isn't nice for either of those people and could be hurtful to a spouse, or contribute to other marital problems.

[FaithManor]

It is a natural conclusion for many of us that if one has the rule that one cannot be alone with a member of the opposite sex especially in a friendship situation or there are rules about this in order to protect the marriage and that one generally only hangs out with couples, then there would be a major issue if one of those individuals ended up uncoupled, a single person.

 

At no time in this discussion where those have indicated that they put such parameters on their relationships has there been an indication that there would be exceptions made for individuals in those couples who suddenly find themselves single, and falling under the "not spending time alone without spouse with a member of the opposite sex" view. Interestingly, given the vulnerability of those in such positions, it would seem to me to be logical if one is worried about protecting one's marriage that it would be absolutely necessary to restrict their access to only times when one's spouse is available.

 

Creekland made a general observation that many of us have reached a place in life where our "couples friends" are no longer couples. We are in the same boat and have a dear friend we are walking through this which means I and other female, married friends are spending time with him unchaperoned. The charge is not to you personally Arctic but to everyone who tends to have strict rules about fraternization with the opposite sex as married people, how do you handle it? Because the reality is as the rules have been laid out by many that do have them do not appear on the surface to have exceptions for such things, and that by default indicates probably such a person would find access to much needed support strictly meted out by the dictates of the married couple's spouse's schedule, or would not be particularly well accommodated in a social structure in which only couples are preferred, or slowly pushed out by the group as they are no longer coupled which is the preferred friendship matrix.

 

You can not blame us for assuming such a person would find themselves pushed out when the discussion for those that have such rules has never indicated that exceptions could be made for such situations. Helping grieving people through trying times is in and of itself a fairly close, kind of intimate type thing which appears to be what many are seeking to avoid. We stated we would not abandon such a friend. Some took instant offense. You can't blame us because again, the situation is in and of itself the very thing that is trying to be avoided according to many in the thread.

 

All that is needed is simple clarification as we aren't the ones actually making assumptions. When one indicates that this very type of intimacy is the thing that must be avoided, the natural, rational conclusion is that said friend's relationship to those that have these rules is likely to change pretty drastically.

[Bluegoat]

I have always had guys as my closest friends, until they got engaged and then married. And then...radio silence. I have to assume that their wives had a pretty strong hand in that as none of them parted in anger or weirdness. So while, I think (and dh thinks as well) that men and women can be friends, I have experienced quite a few women who think the opposite.

 

So my vote is that it can happen, it is great when it does, but it does require a partner who is secure in themselves and their relationship.

 

My thought on this is that there are actuall quite a few people who think that marriage is about emotional attachment.  So if that changes, or develops with someone else, that potentially means changing partners.  It's all about being "in love" or authenticity or being true to yourself.

 

Which makes me want to gak, but if you or your spouse  have that view, having a friendship with others who could potentially be partners is going to be a real threat.

[creekland]

But  I think you're generalization is off-base.

 

Suit yourself.  Not everyone has to agree.  ;)

 

I'm basing what I wrote off folks I know who ended up divorced (sometimes remarried) - and those I know with good marriages (including mine).  

 

Every couple is different though, so if what is written doesn't apply to any particular one, ignore it.  "Common" advice often tells the guys to bring home chocolate, jewelry, and/or flowers.  My guy knows if he does that I won't be pleased.  ;)  I'm not a Gift Giver Love Language-wise.  I'm a Time and Service person.  My hubby is a Verbal and Touch person.  We adjust to that - each of us having learned to speak each other's language even though it's not our personal preferences.  It's worth it for our marriage.

[Bluegoat]

I have as well.

 

I think a big problem is there is so little in society that tells us what to do when that happens so it does feel like a fight. Like I'm currently struggling to think of a book or movie or show that represents how to handle that well - it's either ignored as not happening one true love style or it's treated as drama/comedy/shameful that we get emotions. The lack of representation and ways to handle it without guilt or blaming causes a lot of people problems, I think. 

 

Wht's that Bill Muray movie that takes place in Japan?

 

There is a moment there where it looks like things could cross the line, and they sort of step back from it, very gracefully really.  In a way it almost feels like the writer has put the breaks on what you expected, on an easy resolution.

 

At the same time - you could say they got to that place because their marraiges were having some trouble.

 

I think maybe that is the sort of complexity that can be involved in a friendship where attraction is also part of the equasion, that just isn't likely when it isn't.  It would be very understandable for people who felt alone and out of sorts to look for connection that way, when they weren't their best selves.

[Scarlett]

It is a natural conclusion for many of us that if one has the rule that one cannot be alone with a member of the opposite sex especially in a friendship situation or there are rules about this in order to protect the marriage and that one generally only hangs out with couples, then there would be a major issue if one of those individuals ended up uncoupled, a single person.

 

At no time in this discussion where those have indicated that they put such parameters on their relationships has there been an indication that there would be exceptions made for individuals in those couples who suddenly find themselves single, and falling under the "not spending time alone without spouse with a member of the opposite sex" view. Interestingly, given the vulnerability of those in such positions, it would seem to me to be logical if one is worried about protecting one's marriage that it would be absolutely necessary to restrict their access to only times when one's spouse is available.

 

Creekland made a general observation that many of us have reached a place in life where our "couples friends" are no longer couples. We are in the same boat and have a dear friend we are walking through this which means I and other female, married friends are spending time with him unchaperoned. The charge is not to you personally Arctic but to everyone who tends to have strict rules about fraternization with the opposite sex as married people, how do you handle it? Because the reality is as the rules have been laid out by many that do have them do not appear on the surface to have exceptions for such things, and that by default indicates probably such a person would find access to much needed support strictly meted out by the dictates of the married couple's spouse's schedule, or would not be particularly well accommodated in a social structure in which only couples are preferred, or slowly pushed out by the group as they are no longer coupled which is the preferred friendship matrix.

 

You can not blame us for assuming such a person would find themselves pushed out when the discussion for those that have such rules has never indicated that exceptions could be made for such situations. Helping grieving people through trying times is in and of itself a fairly close, kind of intimate type thing which appears to be what many are seeking to avoid. We stated we would not abandon such a friend. Some took instant offense. You can't blame us because again, the situation is in and of itself the very thing that is trying to be avoided according to many in the thread.

 

All that is needed is simple clarification as we aren't the ones actually making assumptions. When one indicates that this very type of intimacy is the thing that must be avoided, the natural, rational conclusion is that said friend's relationship to those that have these rules is likely to change pretty drastically.

A friend is widowed and we keep being his friend, I dont know why I would suddenly need to spend time alone with widowed friend in order to continue being a friend and in order to offer support.

[Guest]

Lost in Translation

[FaithManor]

A friend is widowed and we keep being his friend, I dont know why I would suddenly need to spend time alone with widowed friend in order to continue being a friend and in order to offer support.

Because in my friend's situation as a single parent, he often needs some advice, help, or a shoulder at times when Dh is not available, on top of which, it isn't always too fun for him to be the single dude in a sea of couples.

[heartlikealion]

I'm not in the market for that either.  

 

In 15 years, it has happened once that I felt very attracted to someone besides my husband.  I mean, I'm not dead, I see attractive men all the time but I wouldn't say I was attracted to any of them.  In this case, I was very drawn to a person who I lacked any real sense of physical attraction for.  It was apparent that had I been interested in starting a relationship, he was interested and he, unlike my husband and I, was not a monogamous person so he would have had no compunction about us having an affair.  I shut that down. Fast.  Because I am a grown ass woman, who doesn't passively let things get carried away.  And there was no way, no how that I was going to sacrifice my marriage.  

 

If I excluded men from my social and professional life, including a man who is like a brother to me and who literally will raise our children if we drop dead, to prevent that one time I was attracted to someone else, I would be paying a very high price.  And my life would be far worse for it.  

 

I like to think we're all "grown ass women" here thankyouverymuch. I can't control other people's feelings and that's half the equation in these scenarios. If I suspected a male friend had a crush on me (some people wouldn't even notice because they're the oblivious type like my dh) I wouldn't feel right continuing to eat out with him. Most of the replies here are women saying, "I wouldn't let anything happen" but that's not what this is completely about. It's about, "are you leading on someone? Is your spouse comfortable with you spending time with this person that clearly has a crush on you?" Not all of these things apply to all cases. They are just examples of what some are reflecting on when they make their choices of who to spend time alone with. So you don't have to have a comeback for them all.

 

I can't control it if friendliness occasionally gets interpreted as flirting or actions speak louder than words and the act of going out to dinner resembles a date. I already told you I don't care what you do. You don't have to defend it. I'm just saying why some people choose not to do it and why. Really.

 

For the record, dh had mostly female friends when we met. I had mostly male. We didn't cut them 100% out of our lives, but we also probably wouldn't meet up with them one on one. We don't live near many of them, anyway. A couple people did post some things that read as flirting which we didn't appreciate.

[Bluegoat]

I didn't think the OP implied anything about rules, personal or otherwise.

 

Saying a relationship between people where there is or could be sexual attraction can be more complex doesn't imply anything about rules, either. 

[Scarlett]

Because in my friend's situation as a single parent, he often needs some advice, help, or a shoulder at times when Dh is not available, on top of which, it isn't always too fun for him to be the single dude in a sea of couples.

I can't even imagine why he would just have to have advice and a shoulder to cry on only when you are alone and your Dh is not available.

[Scarlett]

I like to think we're all "grown ass women" here thankyouverymuch. I can't control other people's feelings and that's half the equation in these scenarios. If I suspected a male friend had a crush on me (some people wouldn't even notice because they're the oblivious type like my dh) I wouldn't feel right continuing to eat out with him. Most of the replies here are women saying, "I wouldn't let anything happen" but that's not what this is completely about. It's about, "are you leading on someone? Is your spouse comfortable with you spending time with this person that clearly has a crush on you?" Not all of these things apply to all cases. They are just examples of what some are reflecting on when they make their choices of who to spend time alone with. So you don't have to have a comeback for them all.

 

I can't control it if friendliness occasionally gets interpreted as flirting or actions speak louder than words and the act of going out to dinner resembles a date. I already told you I don't care what you do. You don't have to defend it. I'm just saying why some people choose not to do it and why. Really.

 

For the record, dh had mostly female friends when we met. I had mostly male. We didn't cut them 100% out of our lives, but we also probably wouldn't meet up with them one on one. We don't live near many of them, anyway. A couple people did post some things that read as flirting which we didn't appreciate.

Same here...I don't care what other people do. At all.

 

And yes it is important not to put myself in the situation of leading someone else on. You never know the internal struggles of another person....I just watched a horrible situation unfold where a close friend with a dying wife had an affair with his married SIL. The fallout from that is staggering.

[heartlikealion]

Same here...I don't care what other people do. At all.

 

And yes it is important not to put myself in the situation of leading someone else on. You never know the internal struggles of another person....I just watched a horrible situation unfold where a close friend with a dying wife had an affair with his married SIL. The fallout from that is staggering.

 

Yes, precisely. While that may be dismissed as "not my problem" to some, this does concern me. I know that we all deal with the seven deadly sins differently so maybe for one lust is an issue and for another it's not. Also, depending on the person they may be more or less in tune with the feelings of those around them. I'm an HSP so I might pick up on something more than someone else.

 

[shawthorne44]

I have a really really good opposite sex friend.  We'd been friends for probably 10 years before I met DH.  DH independently became friends.  They met through me, but would often do stuff just the two of them.   At the start of wedding planning, DH and I disagreed about whose side he would be asked to stand on.  We ended up asking him to officiate.  

 

[Word Nerd]

Who mentioned abandoning anyone? I'm totally confused as to where that implication came from? 

 

I wondered the same thing and suspect all the similar threads are blending together. 

[SKL]

I cannot understand how married people have time for friends at all whatever their sex. I know I don't, not to the same level as DH.  

I guess not everyone has 8 children, three of them foster children with high needs.......

 

Friends take time. I never have time. All my friends are on this forum and I can choose how often I visit here to mix.

 

 

I can relate, though for different reasons.  :)

 

[creekland]

Yes, precisely. While that may be dismissed as "not my problem" to some, this does concern me. I know that we all deal with the seven deadly sins differently so maybe for one lust is an issue and for another it's not. Also, depending on the person they may be more or less in tune with the feelings of those around them. I'm an HSP so I might pick up on something more than someone else.

 

 

This is the key IMO - or at least the conclusion I've come to looking at these similar threads.  If it's potentially an issue for an individual, they should adjust accordingly respecting their own wiring.  If not, don't worry about it.  And don't assume everyone is like yourself whether by making the rule or hanging around as friends with other folks - 'cause we're not all alike.

 

The only time I'd have an issue with it is from one of the other threads - when someone in a position of power uses one of these rules for themselves and that negatively affects someone else.  That person should not be in that position of power.  (I'm not talking MP!!!  I'm talking in general with bosses, lab mentors, leaders of groups, or similar - more "real life" things.)  If one can do things alone with a guy/lady job wise, you should be able to do it with the opposite gender too, esp if not doing so means someone of the opposite gender can't advance.  If you can't, then don't do it alone with anyone or change jobs.

[regentrude]

I can't even imagine why he would just have to have advice and a shoulder to cry on only when you are alone and your Dh is not available.

 

Does your life magically time your crises neatly so that you only ever need advice or a shoulder to cry on predictable occasions?

 

My experience is that the need for advice and support arises spontaneously, because crises and problems just pop up whenever they do. They don't wait for the convenient moment.

 

[Scarlett]

Does your life magically time your crises neatly so that you only ever need advice or a shoulder to cry on predictable occasions?

 

My experience is that the need for advice and support arises spontaneously, because crises and problems just pop up whenever they do. They don't wait for the convenient moment.

Yah, still not getting it. Seems like a recipe for disaster. Vulnerable widower feeling the need for comfort. Seeks out a married woman who is home alone.

[creekland]

Yah, still not getting it. Seems like a recipe for disaster. Vulnerable widower feeling the need for comfort. Seeks out a married woman who is home alone.

 

Just realize it's only that because you perceive it that way.  What you perceive isn't necessarily the only option - esp upon the death of a spouse, raising girls (as in that situation), and being fortunate enough to have good friends.  There aren't that many dads who are super good at raising girls by themselves (including my own dad) - even less so when they are grieving.  I know my dad talked with ladies to get some advice - usually without their spouses being around because he wanted to talk about "girl" things.

[SKL]

Yes this. We have a dear friend who lost his wife and is single parenting two young girls. I spend a lot of time helping him navigate girl world including time spent without my dh around or his girls when he wants to talk about difficult topics. ..most recently that his eldest is going to need to get her first bra. And he feels lost, and misses his wife so badly. And I hugged him when he cried.

 

No problems. No guilt. No affair. I cannot imagine abandoning him. What a terrible thing to do to a friend. Oh my word just no.

 

I am not his only female friend walking this path with him. He needs to know we have his back, and will do everything we can to help he and his girls survive this.

 

I would hope if something happened to dh, my male friends would not abandon the boys and me. The very thought is just gut wrenching.

 

Right now with the insanity my mom is enduring with my father figure one of her long term male friends who lost his wife many moons ago has been coming to help her. No romance. No affair, just people caring for people.

 

I think it was a significant stretch to read into "all our friends are couples" an implication that "we will dump anyone who gets widowed or divorced."

 

I think it is common for people to use "single" to mean "never married / not yet married."  People who have been married and are now not, especially if due to things beyond their control, are in a completely different category.

 

That said, it does happen that if the couple was friends mainly due to the person who died, the other person may not be included as much as before, which is unfortunate.  Maybe it isn't right.  My parents were friends with a couple for many decades.  The wife had been my mom's best friend since she was 13.  The wife died.  The husband and kids are still family friends.  They still visit with my folks.  But the real deep connection was between my mom and her deceased friend, so it's naturally going to be different.  Not that they physically saw each other much anyway, but now, with everyone having more health and mobility problems etc., I don't see my parents making extra efforts to visit the widower.  Yes, that is sad.

[SKL]

Because in my friend's situation as a single parent, he often needs some advice, help, or a shoulder at times when Dh is not available, on top of which, it isn't always too fun for him to be the single dude in a sea of couples.

 

I have a friend whose wife died of cancer when they had a couple of young adopted daughters.  I happened to meet him at certain group meetings, as we are both attorneys.  We would talk about these girl things (and adoption things) during meeting breaks.  Eventually he remarried.  I still consider him my friend, but have never been with him alone.  Not because I have anything against it, just because it was never necessary.  (Had he been "attracted" to me, that would not have been wrong since we were both unmarried at that time.)  Then again, we were never "that close" before - they had dinner at our house, and we were planning to have dinner at his when his wife was diagnosed.  :(

[Scarlett]

Just realize it's only that because you perceive it that way. What you perceive isn't necessarily the only option - esp upon the death of a spouse, raising girls (as in that situation), and being fortunate enough to have good friends. There aren't that many dads who are super good at raising girls by themselves (including my own dad) - even less so when they are grieving. I know my dad talked with ladies to get some advice - usually without their spouses being around because he wanted to talk about "girl" things.

Sure I see the need. Oftentimes sisters or mothers or grandmothers fill this role, but those relationships aren't always there. In our life though, if my widowed friend needed such support it would still be with someone else around...maybe not even right in the conversation, say Dh cooking while friend talks to me in the living room....but honestly I can't imagine a male friend needing to talk about things he would care if Dh heard. I guess I just have a different set of friends. I do t know.

[FaithManor]

I can't even imagine why he would just have to have advice and a shoulder to cry on only when you are alone and your Dh is not available.

Schedules. He does not work the same shift as dh at present. Do all your friends always work the same hours all the time?

[FaithManor]

Sure I see the need. Oftentimes sisters or mothers or grandmothers fill this role, but those relationships aren't always there. In our life though, if my widowed friend needed such support it would still be with someone else around...maybe not even right in the conversation, say Dh cooking while friend talks to me in the living room....but honestly I can't imagine a male friend needing to talk about things he would care if Dh heard. I guess I just have a different set of friends. I do t know.

I can tell you for certain my dh does not want to be a part of the discussion of friend's daughter's first period for one thing.

 

I think you and I simply leaf very different lives, run in unsimilar circles.

[Scarlett]

I can tell you for certain my dh does not want to be a part of the discussion of friend's daughter's first period for one thing.

 

I think you and I simply leaf very different lives, run in unsimilar circles.

 

Yes I agree.  Very different lives.

[heartlikealion]

This is the key IMO - or at least the conclusion I've come to looking at these similar threads.  If it's potentially an issue for an individual, they should adjust accordingly respecting their own wiring.  If not, don't worry about it.  And don't assume everyone is like yourself whether by making the rule or hanging around as friends with other folks - 'cause we're not all alike.

 

The only time I'd have an issue with it is from one of the other threads - when someone in a position of power uses one of these rules for themselves and that negatively affects someone else.  That person should not be in that position of power.  (I'm not talking MP!!!  I'm talking in general with bosses, lab mentors, leaders of groups, or similar - more "real life" things.)  If one can do things alone with a guy/lady job wise, you should be able to do it with the opposite gender too, esp if not doing so means someone of the opposite gender can't advance.  If you can't, then don't do it alone with anyone or change jobs.

 

I was saying that some people adjust for their own wiring as well as the wiring of the others involved. I also don't know if people that meet up always consider the feelings of dining pal's mate. Me personally, I might feel very guilty eating with a married man thinking about how it might make his wife feel. If all parties involved are on board that's one thing. But they could just assume they're all on board and be oblivious to how the other people feel. To this day I doubt dh came right out and told the woman he exercised with that his wife was uncomfortable with it. We had some arguments over that. I wouldn't assume to know how I could be affecting others in private just because John Doe kept appearing for lunch. So yeah, I'm a little sensitive to this topic. Not telling others what to do, just explaining I'm nervous about lots of variables.

Edited April 3, 2017 by heartlikealion

[SKL]

I think some people are reading this as "men and women often can't be friends" while others are reading "men and women *should* not be friends."

 

Also a lot of people seem to be reading "this is my situation" to mean "you need to do what I do."

[Word Nerd]

I think some people are reading this as "men and women often can't be friends" while others are reading "men and women *should* not be friends."

 

Also a lot of people seem to be reading "this is my situation" to mean "you need to do what I do."

 

I think some have also wrongly interpreted "male/female friendships can be complicated depending on the individuals involved," as "men and women should therefore not be friends." 

[creekland]

Yes I agree.  Very different lives.

 

Ha!  I was thinking this very line as I was in my kitchen mulling over what to eat for lunch.  When one never gets hungry (like me), this is sometimes not an easy task.  Nothing is appealing, yet my brain tells me I should really eat something since I skipped supper last night and had next to nothing for breakfast this morning.  That feeling is likely incredibly foreign to so many Hive members... (my brain was on the rabbit trail of wondering what folks would say if I started a thread on it ;)  ).  It's foreign to my family members, but they've gotten used to it.  "If you want to eat and I'm not paying attention to time - say something!"

 

We're different.  The beauty of the Hive is being able to share differences to better understand our world.  I love the diversity of the Hive giving me insight into worlds I didn't know much about.

[unsinkable]

I can tell you for certain my dh does not want to be a part of the discussion of friend's daughter's first period for one thing.

 

I think you and I simply leaf very different lives, run in unsimilar circles.

So your DH wouldn't help out a friend?

[SKL]

Right, the thing about dads not being the right person to discuss a girl's period ... that sounds a bit dark ages to me ....  I would think a solo male parent would want another dad's perspective on it.

Edited April 3, 2017 by SKL

[FaithManor]

Right, the thing about dads not being the right person to discuss a girl's period ... that sounds a bit dark ages to me ....  I would think a solo male parent would want another dad's perspective on it.

LOL it is my dh that doesn't want to discuss it. I think he figures he lived through one daughter, and has glided through parenthood with three sons.

[Scarlett]

Ha! I was thinking this very line as I was in my kitchen mulling over what to eat for lunch. When one never gets hungry (like me), this is sometimes not an easy task. Nothing is appealing, yet my brain tells me I should really eat something since I skipped supper last night and had next to nothing for breakfast this morning. That feeling is likely incredibly foreign to so many Hive members... (my brain was on the rabbit trail of wondering what folks would say if I started a thread on it ;) ). It's foreign to my family members, but they've gotten used to it. "If you want to eat and I'm not paying attention to time - say something!"

 

We're different. The beauty of the Hive is being able to share differences to better understand our world. I love the diversity of the Hive giving me insight into worlds I didn't know much about.

I too like hearing how different people live. I learn things. And sometimes I learn that I prefer my way of doing things.

 

I also learn that for some reason some people get really angry when others have a different way of doing things.

[unsinkable]

I can tell you for certain my dh does not want to be a part of the discussion of friend's daughter's first period for one thing.

 

I think you and I simply leaf very different lives, run in unsimilar circles.

LOL it is my dh that doesn't want to discuss it. I think he figures he lived through one daughter, and has glided through parenthood with three sons.

Well, you actually DID say you can tell for certain that your DH would not want to be a part of the discussion.

 

So your DH DOES have a limit to what he will do for a friendship.

 

As does Scarlett...she will help this hypothetical widowed friend with his hypothetical young daughter in a lot of ways. She said she won't be alone with him. That's what she can offer...we can only offer what we are capable of.

Edited April 3, 2017 by unsinkable

[SKL]

This reminds me of a real situation with my dad, decades ago.

 

There was a single mom in our small town (I don't remember why she was single - divorced, widowed, or never married).  She had a young teen son whose behavior was troublesome.  Supposedly the boy was hitting his mom and stuff.  My dad helped out in some way once.  After that, the mom started calling my dad to come over and "talk to her son" more and more.  She started hitting on my dad.  My dad had to stop going over there as she kept calling and crying.  How awkward.

 

I'm not sure what it was about my dad, but when he was a factory foreman and had many woman workers, he was hit on a lot.  He was able to joke about it at home, but I'm pretty sure he didn't go behind closed doors with them any more than he absolutely had to.  I guarantee he didn't take them out to eat.  :P

Edited April 3, 2017 by SKL

[LucyStoner]

I like to think we're all "grown ass women" here thankyouverymuch. I can't control other people's feelings and that's half the equation in these scenarios. If I suspected a male friend had a crush on me (some people wouldn't even notice because they're the oblivious type like my dh) I wouldn't feel right continuing to eat out with him. Most of the replies here are women saying, "I wouldn't let anything happen" but that's not what this is completely about. It's about, "are you leading on someone? Is your spouse comfortable with you spending time with this person that clearly has a crush on you?" Not all of these things apply to all cases. They are just examples of what some are reflecting on when they make their choices of who to spend time alone with. So you don't have to have a comeback for them all.

 

I can't control it if friendliness occasionally gets interpreted as flirting or actions speak louder than words and the act of going out to dinner resembles a date. I already told you I don't care what you do. You don't have to defend it. I'm just saying why some people choose not to do it and why. Really.

 

For the record, dh had mostly female friends when we met. I had mostly male. We didn't cut them 100% out of our lives, but we also probably wouldn't meet up with them one on one. We don't live near many of them, anyway. A couple people did post some things that read as flirting which we didn't appreciate.

Jealousy and suspicion are not substitutes for wisdom or trust. I do think that there is often something inappropriate or immature about how people think about cross gender friendships when they think they are necessarily hard, difficult or always result in one or both people having amorous intentions or thoughts. That's where I am coming from in these conversations.

 

Edited

Edited April 3, 2017 by LucyStoner

[SKL]

Jealousy and suspicion are not substitutes for wisdom or trust. I do think that there is often something inappropriate or immature about how people think about cross gender friendships when they think they are hard, difficult or always result in one or both people having amorous intentions or thoughts. That's where I am coming from in these conversations.

 

There's a place in a wise person's toolkit for skepticism though.

 

And it's equally naive to think that male-female relationships are all as simple, pure, and straight-forward as one participant intends them to be.  Or as easy to walk away from when things take an undesired turn.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think some people are reading this as "men and women often can't be friends" while others are reading "men and women *should* not be friends."

 

Also a lot of people seem to be reading "this is my situation" to mean "you need to do what I do."

 

The poll says "Women and men cannot ever be friends" - Agree or disagree.  (bolding mine)

 

So that is how I am reading it because that is what it says.  And I disagree with that.  I don't care if someone doesn't want to be friends with someone in the opposite sex, even if that is not a choice I have made in my life.  I do care if they say that we can never be friends because then they are saying that my choice is not a valid one.  In fact, I believe that someone said that anyone who thinks that they are friends with a man is deluded because that man must secretly want me.  And I really really really really don't agree with that. 

[unsinkable]

The poll says "Women and men cannot ever be friends" - Agree or disagree. (bolding mine)

 

So that is how I am reading it because that is what it says. And I disagree with that. I don't care if someone doesn't want to be friends with someone in the opposite sex, even if that is not a choice I have made in my life. I do care if they say that we can never be friends because then they are saying that my choice is not a valid one. In fact, I believe that someone said that anyone who thinks that they are friends with a man is deluded because that man must secretly want me. And I really really really really don't agree with that.

Who said that? Billy Crystal?

[SKL]

The poll says "Women and men cannot ever be friends" - Agree or disagree.  (bolding mine)

 

So that is how I am reading it because that is what it says.  And I disagree with that.  I don't care if someone doesn't want to be friends with someone in the opposite sex, even if that is not a choice I have made in my life.  I do care if they say that we can never be friends because then they are saying that my choice is not a valid one.  In fact, I believe that someone said that anyone who thinks that they are friends with a man is deluded because that man must secretly want me.  And I really really really really don't agree with that. 

 

I agree that those who say women and men can never be friends are wrong.

 

But ... what a boring thread this would be if people left it at that.  :)

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by SKL

[Jean in Newcastle]

Who said that? Billy Crystal?

 

I'm not going to come through 3 similar threads to find out who said what but a couple of people who were not Billy said that - though I'm sure they didn't use my exact words. 

[Scarlett]

Jealousy and suspicion are not substitutes for wisdom or trust. I do think that there is often something inappropriate or immature about how people think about cross gender friendships when they think they are hard, difficult or always result in one or both people having amorous intentions or thoughts. That's where I am coming from in these conversations.

I don't find friendships with men hard or difficult at all. I rather like men.

 

And thinking abou my husband I am not jealous or suspicious of him in the slightest. And trust me I have lived with a man who I was suspicious of a lot so I know of what I speak. Yet Dh and I have a standard with regard to the opposite sex. It works for us and we have a lot of really close friends.