Surprise Facebook Soap Opera

[ktgrok]

Have you actually spoken to Yan in all of this, or just left him a voicemail? Is it possible all of this is in Zarah's head?

[Haiku]

My opinion: you have shown that you can be dawn into drama. (This is not a criticism, just a fact.) Unless you are willing to continue to be drawn into drama, stay away from these people. All of them.

 

I understand that you want to be kind, but Zarah has not been kind to you. Don't allow yourself to continue to be taken advantage of.

 

You did the right thing and informed Xena. If you continue to act as a conduit of information, you are allowing yourself to be drawn into the same drama, just on the other side.

 

Your curiousity about the outcome of events is normal, but pursuing that curiousity is not healthy.

 

Good luck.

[marbel]

Bolt, I think you must be a very kind, compassionate, and caring person, far more so than I am.

 

But Zarah seems to be a user.  Yes, I know she has all sorts of problems that are not her fault.  But, she seems to be depending too much on you for - everything.

 

I would be inclined to gather some information about available social and other services for her, maybe even grease the skids a little with some phone calls to organizations about her specific problems and get specific contacts for her, then... let her move on in her life, and out of your life.

 

In particular, if you plan to continue to be friendly with Xena. 

 

I won't feel hurt if you don't follow this advice.  It might be bad advice for you.  But, I think Zarah has used enough of you by now.

Edited August 18, 2016 by marbel

[hornblower]

Honestly, I don't understand why you'd want to maintain any relationship with any of them. 

[IfIOnly]

Oh, Yan is smooth. He called OW to tell her to quit telling lies about him. Hahaha.

 

Cheater = liar

 

These guys don't fess up. Well, maybe a few do, but then they'll most likely only tell you as little as they think they can get away with --lying as "appropriate"-- to satisfy your "need to know". This goes for those who get caught too. Some may even be doing this because, in their own twisted thinking, they want to "protect" you.

Edited August 18, 2016 by ifIonlyhadabrain

[bolt.]

Have you actually spoken to Yan in all of this, or just left him a voicemail? Is it possible all of this is in Zarah's head?

It's within the realm of possibility that it's all in Zarah's head -- but the details of this long term relationship that she has shared with me don't support that hypothesis.

 

She is frequently bewildered and upset by Yan's actions, she is distressed as the relationship has its ups and downs, and she doesn't always understand the things he says to her. His behavior in the stories is very a very realistic depiction of a person trying to run a double life filled with lies. She frequently looses sleep over it. She picks up her phone and (pretends?) to read me text messages, and ask me what they mean. When he does things for her (ie drops off furniture) the things have actually been done. She knows what he is up to in his life (confirmed by Xena as accurate). She rarely (but occasionally) tells nice stories of good times with him.

 

It doesn't fit with my idea of a made-up relationship.

 

If she made up *this* relationship, she needs intense psychiatric care. It's not a run-of-the-mill fantasy relationship, nor a good tool for getting care and attention from friends and family. Other than psychosis, there isn't any motive for her to be making this up.

 

---

 

It's *far* more likely that, "Yan is smooth." 

 

Getting Xena and me both believing that Zarah needs mental help, rather than that he has been sleeping with her and wants to hide it... that's really within expectations for a man who is having an affair. It's also abusive -- trying to make bystanders believe someone else is insane so that you don't look bad, and others don't believe their allegations. Totally a playbook move.

Edited August 18, 2016 by bolt.

[bolt.]

Honestly, I don't understand why you'd want to maintain any relationship with any of them. 

I'm just a do-gooder, I guess.

 

I remember Zarah as a teen with a bright future. I want that for her. I want to help if I can. And it's not her fault that she is disabled, depressed, and requires help for normal parts of her life. It's very little trouble to add her grocery shopping to my own. If she trusts me (probably not any more!) maybe I can help her stop destroying herself? Up until this point, it hasn't been a problem for me to maintain the relationship.

 

As for Xena, I feel she is 'owed' from me, the way I would have acted if this stuff (not her fault) wasn't a factor. If this stuff wasn't a factor, I'd be making friends.

 

I can imagine ending things with Zarah over this, but I don't think it would be right to ignore and exclude Xena (if she wants a friend) based on other people's actions.

 

I don't want anything to do with Yan!

[Haiku]

I remember Zarah as a teen with a bright future. I want that for her. I want to help if I can. And it's not her fault that she is disabled, depressed, and requires help for normal parts of her life. It's very little trouble to add her grocery shopping to my own. If she trusts me (probably not any more!) maybe I can help her stop destroying herself? Up until this point, it hasn't been a problem for me to maintain the relationship.

 

One of my best, lifelong friends has severe mental health problems. He, too, had an extremely bright future when we were teenagers. Due to mental illness, it has not turned out that way. He is still my friend, and I still love him. However, I have drawn boundaries. I do not give him money, no matter how many times he is homeless and out of a job. I do not answer the phone at 3 in the morning when he is calling to (again) threaten to kill himself. I do not give him rides when he announces some crazy scheme that will never pan out.

 

I set these boundaries long ago, and I have not been drawn into his drama.

 

You cannot fix Zarah's life. Only Zarah can fix Zarah's life, and it doesn't seem like she is interested in doing so. She will use you as much as she can until she no longer has a use for you. It sounds harsh, but the experiences of many people have borne this out. I have watched my friend use up people who played into his drama until they either ran away from him or he got mad at them for finally drawing boundaries and dumped them.

 

And honestly, if you want a friendship with Xena, you have to prioritize her over Zarah. "I want to be friends with you but also with the woman who's cheating with your husband" doesn't really fly. 

 

You seem determined to try to continue to balance all these plates spinning on the ends of sticks, so I'm not really going to say anything more. I hope you give consideration to the pretty much unanimous opinion in this thread to get away from these people. Good luck.

[ktgrok]

Right, I mean, what would Xena get out of being friends with you? If she doesn't believe the affair is happening, then you are the weird person telling lies about her marriage. If she DOES believe it, then you are close friends with her husband's mistress. Either way, i don't see that relationship panning out, you know?

[Scarlett]

I have to agree Bolt that no good can come from your continued involvement with any of them. If Xena wakes up and divorced her cheating and lying husband she may need you as a friend.....and that would be worth pursuing. Other wise they are all poison to you. Even if Yan fesses up and Xena tries to rebuild trust with him you are not going to be the person they want in their life.

 

I TOTALLY get the curiosity factor. I am so much like that. But trust me.....just don't go there.

 

Xena has enough info to find out the truth for herself if she so chooses.

[Carol in Cal.]

I would have a hard time cutting Zarah off if she were disabled and dependent on me.  But I'd probably wean her gradually--work on spreading the shopping load out over several people, help with contacts with social services, that kind of thing.  I wouldn't listen to any more stuff about her BF, and she'd probably reject me for that, and I'd leave happy.  She'd be Ok, and I'd be relieved.

 

Re. Xena, I would totally be friends with her if possible.  It's special to find some who 'knew you when'.  Whether it's possible in this circumstance, though, I'm not sure.  I'd probably make light, occasional contact (no pressure) and see where it lands.

[JustEm]

I feel strongly that if you are going to continue to be in both women's lives you need to make it very clear to Zarah that anything she says about the affair will likely be relayed to Xena. It would be dishonest to report back to Xena if you didn't make that very clear while still helping Zarah with her groceries and such

[Starr]

They've got you all mixed up in their crazy and now we are all succumbing .  :leaving:

Time for you and us to move on.

[TranquilMind]

Have you actually spoken to Yan in all of this, or just left him a voicemail? Is it possible all of this is in Zarah's head?

I saw that Lifetime movie. 

 

Hmmm.  Now I wonder but Zarah probably had some evidence of their relationship.  Maybe?

 

[TranquilMind]

Oh, Yan is smooth. He called OW to tell her to quit telling lies about him. Hahaha.

 

Cheater = liar

 

These guys don't fess up. Well, maybe a few do, but then they'll most likely only tell you as little as they think they can get away with --lying as "appropriate"-- to satisfy your "need to know". This goes for those who get caught too. Some may even be doing this because, in their own twisted thinking, they want to "protect" you.

 

This.  Maybe it would have been better to show up at one of his trysts with Zarah.  But the wife probably just confronted him as soon as she heard this.  That would be understandable as well, of course.  Good liars are GOOD, but they don't always cover their tracks perfectly. 

 

[Bluegoat]

I think it might be tricky to rekindle a friendship with Xena as long as she remains with jerkface.  But, if that relationship breaks up, it might be possible.

[purplejackmama]

I feel strongly that if you are going to continue to be in both women's lives you need to make it very clear to Zarah that anything she says about the affair will likely be relayed to Xena. It would be dishonest to report back to Xena if you didn't make that very clear while still helping Zarah with her groceries and such

I agree. I'm a weirdo but I actually feel bad that you never really told Zarah you disagreed with her choices but you reported everything to Xena.

[marbel]

I'm just a do-gooder, I guess.

 

I remember Zarah as a teen with a bright future. I want that for her. I want to help if I can. And it's not her fault that she is disabled, depressed, and requires help for normal parts of her life. It's very little trouble to add her grocery shopping to my own. If she trusts me (probably not any more!) maybe I can help her stop destroying herself? Up until this point, it hasn't been a problem for me to maintain the relationship.

 

As for Xena, I feel she is 'owed' from me, the way I would have acted if this stuff (not her fault) wasn't a factor. If this stuff wasn't a factor, I'd be making friends.

 

I can imagine ending things with Zarah over this, but I don't think it would be right to ignore and exclude Xena (if she wants a friend) based on other people's actions.

 

I don't want anything to do with Yan!

 

Bolt, you don't owe Xena anything.  I don't mean that in a "who cares about her" sort of way, but - you simply don't owe her anything.  It was a weird twist of fate or providence that you found Xena back in your life.  You acted honorably toward her under the circumstance of  your reunion.  You  might or might not have been friends if you'd reunited in a different way, but it doesn't matter.  If she wants to rekindle a friendship, let her.  But also let her not.   Let it be up to her, not up to  you because of how you feel about the situation.

 

I am beginning to wonder if you regularly take on too much responsibility for other people.  I said this before:  I think you are a very good person, very kind and caring.  But it's starting to sound like more than that; I'm wondering if you get a lot of personal satisfaction from thinking of yourself as a "do-gooder" because it makes you feel good about yourself, not because it's the right thing to do.  I may be way off base - I'm only going by your posts, obviously - but your insistence on hanging on here is making me wonder.  

 

 

[JustEm]

I agree. I'm a weirdo but I actually feel bad that you never really told Zarah you disagreed with her choices but you reported everything to Xena.

Well I think OP did originally tell her she disapproved of the affair. And I personally can't feel bad for a person's affair being revealed no matter who does the revealing. People who choose to have affairs get no sympathy from me on that front.

[Bluegoat]

I agree. I'm a weirdo but I actually feel bad that you never really told Zarah you disagreed with her choices but you reported everything to Xena.

 

I think it partly just worked out that way, but I can se this - I expect Zarah felt a little blind-sided.

[Valley Girl]

I think it partly just worked out that way, but I can se this - I expect Zarah felt a little blind-sided.

 

Well, people who engage in extramarital affairs are deluding themselves if they think they'll never be discovered. She probably did feel blind-sided, but not nearly as much as the wife. By the way, I'm not at all suggesting you think Zarah should be pitied here. I'm just firmly in the "who cares how the cheaters feel about it" camp.

[Bluegoat]

Well, people who engage in extramarital affairs are deluding themselves if they think they'll never be discovered. She probably did feel blind-sided, but not nearly as much as the wife. By the way, I'm not at all suggesting you think Zarah should be pitied here. I'm just firmly in the "who cares how the cheaters feel about it" camp.

 

I don't know - I think people who have affairs are a lot like other people.  They can be like Yan, who seems to be a manipulative and self-centered person who doesn't care about others - it would be hard to care about him.

 

Or they can be like Zarah, who seems to have convinced herself that it was ok, or managed not to think about it too much, which is a pretty common thing for most people from time to time.  Doing so about a romantic relationship may seem like a big thing, but it's also an area of life where people can be so needy and feel so alone.

 

While she knew Bolt didn't really approve, she had a long period of her being her shoulder to cry on, and all of a sudden that changed because the wife turned out to be someone she knew.  It's not like the situation really changed or became worse. 

 

She sounds like a person with a sad life to me, and perhaps an inadequate personality.  I don't think it's ever wrong to pity people like that.

[Haiku]

I don't think it's ever wrong to pity people like that.

 

I used to date a guy who had a horrible, horrible childhood that left him with mental and emotional scars. I did feel sorry for him ... for a while. Eventually I reached the point where I had to accept that he was responsible for his actions in his adult life and that pitying him didn't do anyone any good. It made me stick around for poor treatment far longer than I ever should have, and it gave him an excuse never to change. I don't think pity is a good attitude.

[Valley Girl]

I don't know - I think people who have affairs are a lot like other people.  They can be like Yan, who seems to be a manipulative and self-centered person who doesn't care about others - it would be hard to care about him.

 

Or they can be like Zarah, who seems to have convinced herself that it was ok, or managed not to think about it too much, which is a pretty common thing for most people from time to time.  Doing so about a romantic relationship may seem like a big thing, but it's also an area of life where people can be so needy and feel so alone.

 

While she knew Bolt didn't really approve, she had a long period of her being her shoulder to cry on, and all of a sudden that changed because the wife turned out to be someone she knew.  It's not like the situation really changed or became worse. 

 

She sounds like a person with a sad life to me, and perhaps an inadequate personality.  I don't think it's ever wrong to pity people like that.

 

I understand what you're saying. I just can't work up much sympathy for her. Normally, I'm pretty compassionate and try to see the other side of issues. It might be a character flaw on my part that I can't here. Or it might just be this particular issue. In any case, I do see your point of view.

[bolt.]

I agree. I'm a weirdo but I actually feel bad that you never really told Zarah you disagreed with her choices but you reported everything to Xena.

You've misunderstood.

 

While I didn't constantly harp on my fundamental disagreement with her having an affair, and while I was kind and supportive as a shoulder to cry on -- I did make my opinion that it was a deeply unethical relationship clear (a) when she first told me, ( b ) intermittently through the years, and ( c ) during our last conversation when I explained clearly that I didn't know what I was going to do about the situation, but that telling Xena everything was certainly a possibility.

 

(I also asked her if she would go to a hospital if she felt suicudal, and where the nearest hospital to her was, (currently out of town), and whether she had enough anti-depressant to adjust to nearer her prescribed dose if she wanted to, to get through this (a common thing she does: a fractional dose in good times, a larger fraction in hard times -- never a whole dose). She knew it was a potentially serious moment.)

 

So I did "really tell her" that I disagreed it's just that my sympathy and other actions may have obsured it, perhaps making it seem like I didn't really mean it. By the end, it was at least verbally clear that my conscience was in a tangle and I could go either way.

Edited August 19, 2016 by bolt.

[bolt.]

I don't know - I think people who have affairs are a lot like other people. They can be like Yan, who seems to be a manipulative and self-centered person who doesn't care about others - it would be hard to care about him.

 

Or they can be like Zarah, who seems to have convinced herself that it was ok, or managed not to think about it too much, which is a pretty common thing for most people from time to time. Doing so about a romantic relationship may seem like a big thing, but it's also an area of life where people can be so needy and feel so alone.

 

While she knew Bolt didn't really approve, she had a long period of her being her shoulder to cry on, and all of a sudden that changed because the wife turned out to be someone she knew. It's not like the situation really changed or became worse.

 

She sounds like a person with a sad life to me, and perhaps an inadequate personality. I don't think it's ever wrong to pity people like that.

Thanks for this.

[purplejackmama]

You've misunderstood.

 

While I didn't constantly harp on my fundamental disagreement with her having an affair, and while I was kind and supportive as a shoulder to cry on -- I did make my opinion that it was a deeply unethical relationship clear (a) when she first told me, ( b ) intermittently through the years, and ( c ) during our last conversation when I explained clearly that I didn't know what I was going to do about the situation, but that telling Xena everything was certainly a possibility.

 

(I also asked her if she would go to a hospital if she felt suicudal, and where the nearest hospital to her was, (currently out of town), and whether she had enough anti-depressant to adjust to nearer her prescribed dose if she wanted to, to get through this (a common thing she does: a fractional dose in good times, a larger fraction in hard times -- never a whole dose). She knew it was a potentially serious moment.)

 

So I did "really tell her" that I disagreed it's just that my sympathy and other actions may have obsured it, perhaps making it seem like I didn't really mean it. By the end, it was at least verbally clear that my conscience was in a tangle and I could go either way.

Oh gotcha. Sorry. I misunderstood.

[Bluegoat]

I used to date a guy who had a horrible, horrible childhood that left him with mental and emotional scars. I did feel sorry for him ... for a while. Eventually I reached the point where I had to accept that he was responsible for his actions in his adult life and that pitying him didn't do anyone any good. It made me stick around for poor treatment far longer than I ever should have, and it gave him an excuse never to change. I don't think pity is a good attitude.

 

I don't really connect pity with that kind of respopnse, I guess. 

[Haiku]

I don't really connect pity with that kind of respopnse, I guess. 

 

I view pity as a kind-of helpless, "what can you do?" feeling. Maybe that's just my misinterpretation.

[Bluegoat]

I view pity as a kind-of helpless, "what can you do?" feeling. Maybe that's just my misinterpretation.

 

I think a lot of words about emotions mean different things to different people.

 

I think of it as seeing someone who is less well off in some way than they should be, because of the human condition, and I tend to associate it with my own experiences of failing. 

 

Sometimes people can't overcome those failings, and sometimes they can, so I tend to think it's always worth trying, but a response to failure should ideally be detached - which is much easier said than done. 

 

I think for me that is what it means to be non-judgemental - mostly, we don't really know if a person can do better - often they don't know themselves.  I also believe though that if we want to change, to heal, we have to make the decision to do so on our own, that aspect is not something that other people can take on for us.  And sometimes, too much help can prevent people from making that leap.

[Shred Betty]

Looking forward, my plan is:

- On the day I would normally do groceries next (after a vacation) I will send one message to Zarah to the effect of 'we've had drama, but do you still need food?'

- If I see Zarah over groceries, I might refuse to discuss any of the results of me telling and the state of her relationship with Yan... Or I might let her spill, in case there is anything that might help Xena take the situation more seriously. (Advice on this? I'm strongly motivated to help Xena.) (Also, I feel curious/analytical about the results of my actions. I *want* to know. That's not good, right?)

 

Bolt!!!!! You have decided. YOU have decided Xena should leave Yan. You have decided she should take it more seriously. You have decided to HELP her would be to influence her, convince her, etc and get her away from Yan.

 

Good lord, none of us has perfect understanding... IMHO Help her by respecting that she and God knows best for her, not you. while everyone here may have called Yan a downright dirty dog, your attitude that you feel you can and possibly should be influencing the situation or causing a certain result is DEEPLY troubling to me!

 

The idea that she deserved to know is one thing, this is ALTOGETHER something else :(((((

 

- I will rekindle a normal casual friendship with Xena.

False: assumption that the above is possible. "Normal" relationship... "Casual" relationship.... Not possible! If I were Xena, every single time I thought of Bolt or talked to Bolt I'd feel emotional pain! IMHO you are being selfish, holding on to something, an idea, perfection, "doing good," fixing people, who knows... But it doesn't exist. Allow it to be in the past. And allow it to unfold without you and without taking pleasure from knowing how it turns out and how you played an important role in this suffering. I guess I'm sorry for being so harsh but... Felt like I could keep quiet. In fairness you did ask for advice on your strategy!

 

  

I feel strongly that if you are going to continue to be in both women's lives you need to make it very clear to Zarah that anything she says about the affair will likely be relayed to Xena. It would be dishonest to report back to Xena if you didn't make that very clear while still helping Zarah with her groceries and such

. Well said.

[Shred Betty]

I used to date a guy who had a horrible, horrible childhood that left him with mental and emotional scars. I did feel sorry for him ... for a while. Eventually I reached the point where I had to accept that he was responsible for his actions in his adult life and that pitying him didn't do anyone any good. It made me stick around for poor treatment far longer than I ever should have, and it gave him an excuse never to change. I don't think pity is a good attitude.

Hindsight is 20/20! I dated "this guy" once many yrs ago too! I'd totally call the emotion I felt for him pity. He wanted me to pity him.