Pregnant Mom Awarded 16 Million for Traumatic Birth -(Pregnant Moms Advised)

[TranquilMind]

Yikes!  What a horrible series of events here!  Ahhh

 

https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/mom-who-sued-hospital-for-traumatic-birth-wins-16-million-173203800.html

[ktgrok]

I am so glad she won her lawsuit, I didn't expect her to, honestly. I think she won because she could prove permanent damage. I know of similar stories where no lawyer would even take it, due to no permanent physical damage. PTSD isn't enough. 

[luuknam]

Who in their right mind holds a baby inside until the doctor gets there? Those nurses should lose their certification or w/e.

[TranquilMind]

What the heck??  Where do they get off holding her down???  And holding in the baby by force? I would have come out swinging if someone did that!

 

It was her fourth pregnancy and her husband was an attorney!  Why didn't he tell them to back it way up??  So many disturbing things...

[Guest]

Good for her! My last hospital birth involved a nurse directly violating the immediately prior stated instructions by my husband and I to not touch my cervix. She not only did but gave me a membrane sweep in labor (which we had explicitly forbidden because of how fast my final stage progresses) and threw me into transition before either my doula or provider could get there. It was intensely painful and violating, and that wasn't my worst hospital birth experience, either. We tore her a blue streak with the survey from the hospital administration and had homebirths from there on out, where the only reason I'm being 'forced' onto my back is because my babies won't drop in any other position.

 

You couldn't pay me to give birth in a hospital again unless it was a surgical birth. As much as I'd like painkillers this time around the benefits of my midwives outweigh the risks by a large measure.

 

That poor woman and her husband were absolutely mistreated and she was provably injured - it's just a blessing the baby wasn't caused harm from the actions of the nurses. Hopefully more and more of these cases being brought forward will be a wake up call to the obstetrical world, or at least facilitate a paradigm shift toward less managed birth care.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Ravin]

What the heck??  Where do they get off holding her down???  And holding in the baby by force? I would have come out swinging if someone did that!

 

It was her fourth pregnancy and her husband was an attorney!  Why didn't he tell them to back it way up??  So many disturbing things...

 

In the heat of the moment, people tend to defer to authority. This is why a doula can play a valuable role different from that of a spouse.

 

Not to mention that all he could do was try and tell them to back off. In many states it is a felony to lay hands on medical staff. Ditto had the mom tried to kick the nurse off or "come out swinging."

 

She won because she has permanent physical injuries, and because there was misrepresentation as well as sucky treatment.

 

She probably wouldn't have won had the hospital not been touting  natural and low-intervention birth.

[TranquilMind]

The comments.  Oh my Lord.  Don't read Paula's comment if you don't have a strong stomach.

[TranquilMind]

In the heat of the moment, people tend to defer to authority. This is why a doula can play a valuable role different from that of a spouse.

 

Not to mention that all he could do was try and tell them to back off. In many states it is a felony to lay hands on medical staff. Ditto had the mom tried to kick the nurse off or "come out swinging."

 

She won because she has permanent physical injuries, and because there was misrepresentation as well as sucky treatment.

 

She probably wouldn't have won had the hospital not been touting  natural and low-intervention birth.

Well, maybe, but hell would freeze over before I would let someone do this to me.   She had four babies!  She knows what is supposed to happen and what isn't. 

 

Seriously.  Of course, they would probably just drug me up to keep me compliant. 

 

Maybe it is a good thing I had home births.  My husband is gentle and kind, but by golly, he would defend me, I think, by stepping in front of me if they tried that.   He (or I) wouldn't hit anyone but by golly, we would get free.

 

You may be right on the last point, but what an egregious violation!

Edited August 10, 2016 by TranquilMind

[TranquilMind]

Good for her! My last hospital birth involved a nurse directly violating the immediately prior stated instructions by my husband and I to not touch my cervix. She not only did but gave me a membrane sweep in labor (which we had explicitly forbidden because of how fast my final stage progresses) and threw me into transition before either my doula or provider could get there. It was intensely painful and violating, and that wasn't my worst hospital birth experience, either. We tore her a blue streak with the survey from the hospital administration and had homebirths from there on out, where the only reason I'm being 'forced' onto my back is because my babies won't drop in any other position.

 

You couldn't pay me to give birth in a hospital again unless it was a surgical birth. As much as I'd like painkillers this time around the benefits of my midwives outweigh the risks by a large measure.

 

That poor woman and her husband were absolutely mistreated and she was provably injured - it's just a blessing the baby wasn't caused harm from the actions of the nurses. Hopefully more and more of these cases being brought forward will be a wake up call to the obstetrical world, or at least facilitate a paradigm shift toward less managed birth care.

That's awful.  I have never had a hospital birth but I have heard that "sweeping membranes" is a big and (and usually unnecessary) thing.  My midwife told me never, ever let anyone do that.  So I don't know, but right there with you.  I won't be giving birth again, but if I did, I'd do it at home. 

[ktgrok]

And this kind of crap is why I'm having another homebirth, God willing. No matter how much my mother hates it. 

[gardenmom5]

Who in their right mind holds a baby inside until the doctor gets there? Those nurses should lose their certification or w/e.

 

I've heard way too many stories of L&D nurses holding mom's legs together to delay delivery.

 

one of the L&D nurses with my last delivery was horrible - and two sides of a sheet of paper wasn't enough for me to verbalize my anger at her incompetence. (and her going against my doctor!)   among other things . . . she left my arm so black and blue to the point I had subsequent nurses convinced dh was beating me.

If I hadn't had such a miserable pg, and dudeling hadn't been so ill when after he was born -I probably would have complained more forcefully.

[AnnE-girl]

This is horrifying. It makes me even more grateful for my midwives, and the nurses who respect their model of care.

[Caraway]

I had a horrifying third birth because of the actions of a single nurse and those who followed her orders. My daughter is now five, I still have PTSD from the experience.

 

 

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[IfIOnly]

That poor woman. :(

 

My last birth (and only out of five births) was in a hospital. No respect for me as an individual, and it was a pretty progressive pro natural birth one. Only one decent nurse with some common sense I came in contact with, but the other nurses discounted her suggestions and recommendations. It was pretty hilarious though when a nurse hit the emergency button and the staff flew in like a swat team hardly making the birth. Hey people, when I got here I told you I went from 5cm to pushing in about an hour give or take, I WASN'T FREAKING JOKING. Thanks for making me wait in triage on my back and walk down the hall to my room pubically during transition. So very painful and distressing and not cool. There were So many yucky things compared to midwifery care, I will never to a hospital birth again unless medically necessary or the hospitals stop their barbaric and ridiculous treatment of women.

 

ETA: we went in when the Bradley method said to to avoid a slew of intervention, I think 3 minutes apart, maybe four? I just go fast at that point. I did avoid any interventions at least!

Edited August 10, 2016 by ifIonlyhadabrain

[JustEm]

As I sit here reading this article I can feel my baby's movements inside me for the first time. It makes me so sad that this woman and so many others have been treated so poorly during labor and delivery. I have 2 of my own horror stories, one that pisses me off occasionally and one that makes me have a panic attack on the OR table with each subsequent csection. I'm thankful I have an OB I trust right now and that my hospital has gotten significantly more baby and mother friendly since my first birth.

[MinivanMom]

Brookwood Hospital is well-known for its sky-high c-section rate and controlling approach to childbirth. My sil had all of her children there, but she wanted the controlled, medicalized experience where she laid on her back while her doctor & nurses ordered her around. Personally, I would rather give birth alone in the gutter outside Brookwood Hospital than step through the doors of that hellish place.

 

I know that when my sil had her first two children there (about a decade ago), Brookwood was aggressively advertising their state-of-the-art video system that allowed your family to watch your elective c-section live. I can't imagine what possessed them to switch to advertising that they supported natural childbirth. 

 

I wish I could say I was surprised or shocked, but I'm not. A winning lawsuit like this helps, but the childbirth culture in Alabama in general - and at Brookwood specifically - is deeply ingrained. I'll just say that I'm very glad to live in a state where I am within driving distance of a wonderful hospital that is genuinely supportive of natural childbirth. When I had a medical situation during my last pregnancy that required me to give birth there after two previous homebirths, I was treated with so much support and respect. So, yes, there are doctors and nurses out there who have figured out how to treat pregnant women with dignity. Too bad none of them are willing to live and work in Alabama.

[3 ladybugs]

I feel bad for the woman, but I think the judgement was WAY out of line. Yeah she had a bad birth. Yes she has pain to this day, but who is really to say that that wouldn't have happened anyway with a "perfect" birth. 

 

I just think 16 million is WAY too high of a number for what happened. I honestly think 1 million is too high, but it is in the range of being acceptable. No one died. Everyone is alive. She should be thankful for what she has and not get rich from it. How many poor people are not going to have care now because of this judgement? I hope it gets thrown out in appeals. 

[ktgrok]

I feel bad for the woman, but I think the judgement was WAY out of line. Yeah she had a bad birth. Yes she has pain to this day, but who is really to say that that wouldn't have happened anyway with a "perfect" birth. 

 

I just think 16 million is WAY too high of a number for what happened. I honestly think 1 million is too high, but it is in the range of being acceptable. No one died. Everyone is alive. She should be thankful for what she has and not get rich from it. How many poor people are not going to have care now because of this judgement? I hope it gets thrown out in appeals. 

 

The thing is, how many poor people and people in general will be treated better, because of the pain of the verdict? It has to hurt to make the hospital make changes. 

[Mergath]

I feel bad for the woman, but I think the judgement was WAY out of line. Yeah she had a bad birth. Yes she has pain to this day, but who is really to say that that wouldn't have happened anyway with a "perfect" birth.

 

I just think 16 million is WAY too high of a number for what happened. I honestly think 1 million is too high, but it is in the range of being acceptable. No one died. Everyone is alive. She should be thankful for what she has and not get rich from it. How many poor people are not going to have care now because of this judgement? I hope it gets thrown out in appeals.

Did you somehow miss the part where they forcefully held the baby inside of her when she was crowning, causing her permanent damage? How can you think that's no big deal just because they didn't kill her while they were at it?

[Barb_]

Well, maybe, but hell would freeze over before I would let someone do this to me. She had four babies! She knows what is supposed to happen and what isn't.

 

Seriously. Of course, they would probably just drug me up to keep me compliant.

 

Maybe it is a good thing I had home births. My husband is gentle and kind, but by golly, he would defend me, I think, by stepping in front of me if they tried that. He (or I) wouldn't hit anyone but by golly, we would get free.

 

You may be right on the last point, but what an egregious violation!

Whether you mean it or not, this is victim blaming. We weren't there and can't imagine what we'd do when blindsided.

[ktgrok]

Did you somehow miss the part where they forcefully held the baby inside of her when she was crowning, causing her permanent damage? How can you think that's no big deal just because they didn't kill her while they were at it?

 

Exactly. That's the hardest part on the baby, it could have killed the baby. And the nerve damage will cause her pain the rest of her life, and requires her to be on medication that effects her life as well. 

Edited August 11, 2016 by ktgrok

[Guest]

I feel bad for the woman, but I think the judgement was WAY out of line. Yeah she had a bad birth. Yes she has pain to this day, but who is really to say that that wouldn't have happened anyway with a "perfect" birth.

 

I just think 16 million is WAY too high of a number for what happened. I honestly think 1 million is too high, but it is in the range of being acceptable. No one died. Everyone is alive. She should be thankful for what she has and not get rich from it. How many poor people are not going to have care now because of this judgement? I hope it gets thrown out in appeals.

Oh, hell no. She is in pain, every minute, forever. She deserves the amount she got plus more.

[Barb_]

Oh, hell no. She is in pain, every minute, forever. She deserves the amount she got plus more.

Agreed. She was assaulted and so was her child. Her child suffered permanent damage. I think it's just right. Hospitals and medical staff get away with too much abuse of moms and babies under the guise of protecting them. Who they are protecting is themselves. From inconvenience and/or fear of lawsuits

Edited August 11, 2016 by Barb_

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I feel bad for the woman, but I think the judgement was WAY out of line. Yeah she had a bad birth. Yes she has pain to this day, but who is really to say that that wouldn't have happened anyway with a "perfect" birth. 

 

I just think 16 million is WAY too high of a number for what happened. I honestly think 1 million is too high, but it is in the range of being acceptable. No one died. Everyone is alive. She should be thankful for what she has and not get rich from it. How many poor people are not going to have care now because of this judgement? I hope it gets thrown out in appeals. 

 

How close to killing the baby can they get before she isn't supposed to just be thankful that they didn't succeed in killing the baby? Doing something that could have killed the baby as it was being born isn't close enough?

 

"Just being thankful to be alive" is what we are after a horrific accident that was nobody's fault, that we shouldn't have survived but did. Like, I don't know, a shark attack? This principle does not apply to assault of birthing women, or any man-made trauma deliberately inflicted upon any helpless human being.

 

You are a mother. How can you think this? How can anyone think this, who has ever been through childbirth? Truly, I do not understand.

[Barb_]

Brookwood Hospital is well-known for its sky-high c-section rate and controlling approach to childbirth. My sil had all of her children there, but she wanted the controlled, medicalized experience where she laid on her back while her doctor & nurses ordered her around. Personally, I would rather give birth alone in the gutter outside Brookwood Hospital than step through the doors of that hellish place.

 

I know that when my sil had her first two children there (about a decade ago), Brookwood was aggressively advertising their state-of-the-art video system that allowed your family to watch your elective c-section live. I can't imagine what possessed them to switch to advertising that they supported natural childbirth.

 

I wish I could say I was surprised or shocked, but I'm not. A winning lawsuit like this helps, but the childbirth culture in Alabama in general - and at Brookwood specifically - is deeply ingrained. I'll just say that I'm very glad to live in a state where I am within driving distance of a wonderful hospital that is genuinely supportive of natural childbirth. When I had a medical situation during my last pregnancy that required me to give birth there after two previous homebirths, I was treated with so much support and respect. So, yes, there are doctors and nurses out there who have figured out how to treat pregnant women with dignity. Too bad none of them are willing to live and work in Alabama.

Small towns in the south are ground zero for this kind of treatment. My husband used to work for a small hospital in KY. I happened to have a baby when he was there. The c-sect rate was 64%. Now it's over 75%. I went to one appointment and came home crying so hard I hyperventilated. The doctor told me we'd do things his way or no way and no one was going to tell him how to do his job. "You have no say in this matter," he said. I may have overreacted but I still had some baggage surrounding a trumatic first birth and 4th degree tear.

 

I convinced a midwife out of town to attend to me at home by threatening to do it unattended. I knew she did home births for the Mennonites. I was dead serious. Id rather have taken my chances with a pot of boiling water and a pair of sharp scissors. That place was a butcher shop.

[Barb_]

How close to killing the baby can they get before she isn't supposed to just be thankful that they didn't succeed in killing the baby? Doing something that could have killed the baby as it was being born isn't close enough?

 

"Just being thankful to be alive" is what we are after a horrific accident that was nobody's fault, that we shouldn't have survived but did. Like, I don't know, a shark attack? This principle does not apply to assault of birthing women, or any man-made trauma deliberately inflicted upon any helpless human being.

 

You are a mother. How can you think this? How can anyone think this, who has ever been through childbirth? Truly, I do not understand.

I don't want to pile on, but yes, this says what I feel. Someone attacked her baby and wounded it out of a selfish desire to protect the institution or their jobs.

[happypamama]

Also, 16 million is a big payout. Someone is coughing that up. If it hurts to pay it out, perhaps the powers that be at that hospital will make a bigger point to do the right thing, to respect patients better, to practice solid evidence based medicine.

 

I'm so glad that woman and her baby are alive, but I'm so sorry she went through all of that. I can't imagine how horrible an ordeal it must have been.

[TranquilMind]

Whether you mean it or not, this is victim blaming. We weren't there and can't imagine what we'd do when blindsided.

 

I'm not blaming her.  Like I said, they would have probably drugged me up for compliance anyway.

 

You are right that we never know how we will react in the moment. 

 

This is obscene though and never should have happened anywhere to anyone. 

[Mimm]

Did you somehow miss the part where they forcefully held the baby inside of her when she was crowning, causing her permanent damage? How can you think that's no big deal just because they didn't kill her while they were at it?

 

This part alone sickens me. I can't imagine anyone doing this to a birthing mother. What kind of barbaric so-called "nurse" would do something like this? I don't think 16 million is too much AT ALL and I hope it hurts that hospital, who isn't even having the decency to apologize or say they're going to make changes, and I hope all maternity wards in the country take note. I would love to see hospitals finally be held responsible for how they treat birthing mothers.

[ktgrok]

And part of the reason we got into this bizarro land of crappy maternity care is lawsuits...doctors now believe that "managed" care for pregnant women, doing everything according to protocols, is how to avoid a lawsuit, even if it hurts the women themselves. This lawsuit helps to say no, you can't play CYA medicine by just medicalizing everything. You actually need to listen to women, and treat them like fully human beings. 

[Farrar]

I feel bad for the woman, but I think the judgement was WAY out of line. Yeah she had a bad birth. Yes she has pain to this day, but who is really to say that that wouldn't have happened anyway with a "perfect" birth. 

 

I just think 16 million is WAY too high of a number for what happened. I honestly think 1 million is too high, but it is in the range of being acceptable. No one died. Everyone is alive. She should be thankful for what she has and not get rich from it. How many poor people are not going to have care now because of this judgement? I hope it gets thrown out in appeals. 

 

If the hospital amputated the wrong leg should I "just be happy I'm alive"?

 

This isn't about having the perfect birth. She has permanent, verifiable neurological damage that was caused when they explicitly refused to follow correct medical procedure.

 

I really hate this attitude because it's so pervasive. It's like, if you emerge with a living baby, you're not allowed to complain about the crap treatment the hospital gives you. Even if they endanger your life! Even if they endanger your baby's life! As long as anyone is thinking this way - that doctors are gods who can do no wrong and hospitals are their temples - we'll never get better, safer births.

[ktgrok]

The hospital also admitted (in a different article I read) that they only follow a mother's wishes if they think it is in the mother's best interest. In other words, although that sounds nice, they do not allow for informed consent or refusal. They flat out admitted it. You can't force treatment on mentally sound people, and that includes pregnant women. Something doctors don't seem to understand. 

[IfIOnly]

Another thing about my hospital birth to illustrate how incredibly ignorant staff can be: my babies heartbeats go down whenever I'm on my back (a horrible position for babe but better for doctor). With my first I actually liked being semi inclined on my back because it slowed down the contraction but babe's heartbeat was going down, so my midwife told me to get up and move around and change position. Babe's heartbeat was fine the rest of labor. I repeated this a few times until it was obvious being on my back was what distressing baby.

 

When the hossy had me on my back in triage, babes heartbeat wasn't great. They mentioned their concern. I just bit my tounge because they had dismissed me so far. Sure enough, after getting up and walking to my room and not getting on my back again, babes hb was great.

 

I just think of all the mom's who "needed" an emergency cesarean because babes hb was crashing because of something so preventable and yet common knowledge amongst midwives.

[Mimm]

If the hospital amputated the wrong leg should I "just be happy I'm alive"?

 

This isn't about having the perfect birth. She has permanent, verifiable neurological damage that was caused when they explicitly refused to follow correct medical procedure.

 

I really hate this attitude because it's so pervasive. It's like, if you emerge with a living baby, you're not allowed to complain about the crap treatment the hospital gives you. Even if they endanger your life! Even if they endanger your baby's life! As long as anyone is thinking this way - that doctors are gods who can do no wrong and hospitals are their temples - we'll never get better, safer births.

 

We only hear this about giving birth. Like because you're bringing another person into the world, you stop being a person and it doesn't matter what you went through, you're just supposed to be happy with the baby. It's so dehumanizing, revictimizing women who were already dehumanized by their experiences.

 

[Barb_]

The hospital also admitted (in a different article I read) that they only follow a mother's wishes if they think it is in the mother's best interest. In other words, although that sounds nice, they do not allow for informed consent or refusal. They flat out admitted it. You can't force treatment on mentally sound people, and that includes pregnant women. Something doctors don't seem to understand.

Somehow carrying a child turns you into an actual child in the eyes of many medical personnel. My husband works in hospitals (not a doctor) and I've gotten to know quite a few obgyns and on nurses. My aunt had a 35ish year career in obstetrics. I've found that the attitude is pervasive. They talk "the mom" like she's an idiot. And more than once I've heard it laughingly said that a birth plan is the surest route to a c-section. I got into a heated disagreement with the husband of a good friend when he (doc) asserted that the OB has a right to a normal, fairly predictable schedule just like anyone else. That was his defense of managed labor. Not having to get up in the middle of the night.

[Farrar]

The hospital also admitted (in a different article I read) that they only follow a mother's wishes if they think it is in the mother's best interest. In other words, although that sounds nice, they do not allow for informed consent or refusal. They flat out admitted it. You can't force treatment on mentally sound people, and that includes pregnant women. Something doctors don't seem to understand. 

 

Increasingly, you *can* force treatment on pregnant mothers. There's a trend of doing so and having judges uphold the decision.

 

ETA: Because obviously the sorts of medical professionals who defy medical best practices to permanently injure mothers and endanger babies lives know best.  :glare:

Edited August 11, 2016 by Farrar

[Artichoke]

I feel bad for the woman, but I think the judgement was WAY out of line. Yeah she had a bad birth. Yes she has pain to this day, but who is really to say that that wouldn't have happened anyway with a "perfect" birth. 

 

I just think 16 million is WAY too high of a number for what happened. I honestly think 1 million is too high, but it is in the range of being acceptable. No one died. Everyone is alive. She should be thankful for what she has and not get rich from it. How many poor people are not going to have care now because of this judgement? I hope it gets thrown out in appeals. 

 

 

 The tipping point for the jury was probably the fact that the hospital heavily advertised a very different and natural experience.  Like it or not, birthing babies is a huge business for hospitals and brings in many discretionary dollars.  All medical ethics and injuries aside, the hospital deliberately chose to advertise something which was not in fact provided.   To me, that additional layer opens the way to additional damages. 

Edited June 12, 2017 by Artichoke

[mamiof5]

So glad baby made it safely and mom is alive and won the lawsuit, but sad for what she went through, and still deals with as a result of their incompetence.

[umsami]

Who in their right mind holds a baby inside until the doctor gets there? Those nurses should lose their certification or w/e.

 

That was what caused all of the problems with Rosemary Kennedy.  Crazy.  No excuse to do it back in the 1920s or whenever.  People should definitely know better by now!

[Bluegoat]

Another thing about my hospital birth to illustrate how incredibly ignorant staff can be: my babies heartbeats go down whenever I'm on my back (a horrible position for babe but better for doctor). With my first I actually liked being semi inclined on my back because it slowed down the contraction but babe's heartbeat was going down, so my midwife told me to get up and move around and change position. Babe's heartbeat was fine the rest of labor. I repeated this a few times until it was obvious being on my back was what distressing baby.

 

When the hossy had me on my back in triage, babes heartbeat wasn't great. They mentioned their concern. I just bit my tounge because they had dismissed me so far. Sure enough, after getting up and walking to my room and not getting on my back again, babes hb was great.

 

I just think of all the mom's who "needed" an emergency cesarean because babes hb was crashing because of something so preventable and yet common knowledge amongst midwives.

 

This is what happened with my first birth which ended in a c-section, and that is what set up my sebsequent births for sections as well, because then they were extra-vigilent.  At the time, I didn't really know better, or quite what to expect, so I wasn't in much of a position to argue - I was dependent on other's experience.  It seems to be a very common sceario, and the staff don't seem to be aware of it at all, which I find so bizzare, given that midwives and veterenarians are quite aware of it.

[Bluegoat]

Sadly, the holding the baby thing in does not surprise me, I have heard of this on a number of occasions, generally because there is a rule or regulation that say there must be a doctor there.  I think it probably does put the nurses in a difficult position, but the approriate solution, to my mind, for them is simply that they all refuse to do it, and maybe get their union involved.

 

I am not wholly unsympathetic that doctors may sometimes think that patients are asking for something wholly unreasonable or that they cannot in good conscience do.  Patients can have unrealistic expectations, or want things that are really damaging or unhealthy, or fall prey to scams and misinformation.    However, I also think the bar for that is extraordinarily low in maternity care, and not particularly evidence based or about best care practices.  In my third pregnancy, I did have some choices that were not that standard for the hospital.  I did know the research on them, and they were on issues that medical experts disagreed on, not extreme or bizarre things.  And yet the hospital ultimately bullied me with extreme measures to get compliance. 

 

I am not crazy about litigation as a solution, but litigation is part of what has caused this problem, and perhaps it is the only way to get hospitals to really start respecting patients.

[Bluegoat]

Somehow carrying a child turns you into an actual child in the eyes of many medical personnel. My husband works in hospitals (not a doctor) and I've gotten to know quite a few obgyns and on nurses. My aunt had a 35ish year career in obstetrics. I've found that the attitude is pervasive. They talk "the mom" like she's an idiot. And more than once I've heard it laughingly said that a birth plan is the surest route to a c-section. I got into a heated disagreement with the husband of a good friend when he (doc) asserted that the OB has a right to a normal, fairly predictable schedule just like anyone else. That was his defense of managed labor. Not having to get up in the middle of the night.

 

I've heard this from some midwives and doulas as well though, and not because they don't think moms should have choices.  It was more in terms of personality types - people who more inclined to control how things happen may not always be the most effective at coping with birth.  I've also heard a version of it which says, the shorter the birth plan, the more likely it will be useful and effective.

 

I even knew one doula who felt it was much better to talk about these things but not create a formal birth plan.

[Ravin]

Double post that I thought the internet ate! 

 

Edited August 11, 2016 by Ravin

[Ravin]

DP that I thought the internet ate! 

 

Edited August 11, 2016 by Ravin

[Ravin]

I feel bad for the woman, but I think the judgement was WAY out of line. Yeah she had a bad birth. Yes she has pain to this day, but who is really to say that that wouldn't have happened anyway with a "perfect" birth. 

 

I just think 16 million is WAY too high of a number for what happened. I honestly think 1 million is too high, but it is in the range of being acceptable. No one died. Everyone is alive. She should be thankful for what she has and not get rich from it. How many poor people are not going to have care now because of this judgement? I hope it gets thrown out in appeals. 

 

It isn't about the money. If it was, they'd have settled. It's about using the judgment to force the hospital to change its actions going forward.

 

$16 million isn't that much to a large hospital. Most if not all is likely covered by malpractice insurance. It's not going to put them out of business or keep poor people from getting care. It is enough to be a warning to other institutions not to pull this kind of thing.

 

It also won't go all that far for the woman. First, the lawyer probably gets a third to half. Then, all the fees for court and litigation costs come out--from filing fees to expert witnesses, etc. Then, there's tax on the amount. She has medical bills piled up because of this that must be paid. At the end of all that, there won't be all that much left. 

 

This is how the tort system works. 

[IfIOnly]

This is what happened with my first birth which ended in a c-section, and that is what set up my sebsequent births for sections as well, because then they were extra-vigilent. At the time, I didn't really know better, or quite what to expect, so I wasn't in much of a position to argue - I was dependent on other's experience. It seems to be a very common sceario, and the staff don't seem to be aware of it at all, which I find so bizzare, given that midwives and veterenarians are quite aware of it.

Oh, how upsetting. I'm so sorry.

 

Here's a decent article from What to Expect on the topic, which is amazing because that book is so conventional and loaded with bad advice. They make it sound like this is common practice and knowledge amongst birth care providers, but it absolutely is not, yet should be.

 

"Doctors recommend sleeping on your left side in the second and third trimesters to keep the blood flowing between you and your baby (lying on your back compresses the vena cava, a major vein carrying blood from the lower body back to the heart)."

 

"If you've noticed a change in fetal activity or your kick count is off and you're concerned your baby is in distress, don't hesitate to call your practitioner. He or she may first recommend lying on your left side (which takes pressure off your major blood vessels) to see if activity picks up."

 

http://www.whattoexpect.com/pregnancy/pregnancy-health/complications/fetal-distress.aspx

 

Such a smart low tech solutions!

[Bluegoat]

Oh, how upsetting. I'm so sorry.

 

Here's a decent article from What to Expect on the topic, which is amazing because that book is so conventional and loaded with bad advice. They make it sound like this is common practice and knowledge amongst birth care providers, but it absolutely is not, yet should be.

 

"Doctors recommend sleeping on your left side in the second and third trimesters to keep the blood flowing between you and your baby (lying on your back compresses the vena cava, a major vein carrying blood from the lower body back to the heart)."

 

"If you've noticed a change in fetal activity or your kick count is off and you're concerned your baby is in distress, don't hesitate to call your practitioner. He or she may first recommend lying on your left side (which takes pressure off your major blood vessels) to see if activity picks up."

 

http://www.whattoexpect.com/pregnancy/pregnancy-health/complications/fetal-distress.aspx

 

Such a smart low tech solutions!

 

Ha, that is funny, because yes that is such a mainstream book in its attitudes.

 

I really think so much is about what staff get used to.  If they are used to having patients on their backs, they just aren't likely to see it as a problem.  Even if they know that reccomendation about side lying, there isn't a connection.  I think this is probably true for most of us, we just take 90% of what we do and see on a daily basis for granted.

 

I've always found it so interesting that the advice I see in texts on animal husbandry are so much closer to what generally seems to be recommended in midwifery care.  It's very much a biological approach, whereas the mainstream medical approach is so mechanistic.  Why would we not understand that in terms of processes like this, we really are animals.

[MinivanMom]

I've heard this from some midwives and doulas as well though, and not because they don't think moms should have choices.  It was more in terms of personality types - people who more inclined to control how things happen may not always be the most effective at coping with birth.  I've also heard a version of it which says, the shorter the birth plan, the more likely it will be useful and effective.

 

I even knew one doula who felt it was much better to talk about these things but not create a formal birth plan.

 

The problem with just talking about these things (with your midwife or doctor) is that your doctor isn't going to be there when you walk through the doors of the hospital. You are going to have to deal with Random Nurse. And Random Nurse has no idea what you talked about with your doctor nor does she have the time to sit at your bedside and chat through your feelings about ______ (fill in the blank: continuous monitoring, pitocin, epidurals, staying in bed on your back, etc). That birth plan is what quickly and easily communicates that you are "one of those moms" to Random Nurse so that she pauses and asks permission before barreling ahead with all the routine interventions.

 

I have also long suspected that having your birth plan forwarded to the hospital ahead of time prevents you from winding up with Nightmare Nurse. If you call up to L&D to tell them you're on the way and they see that birth plan, the chances are better that Nightmare Nurse won't be willing to deal with "one of those moms" and a more tolerant nurse will be assigned instead.

 

But nothing helps in a hospital like Brookwood. If a hospital has a 50% c-section rate when they are not the hospital treating the poor or the high-risk cases (UAB & St.Vincent's take on that role in the Birmingham area - Brookwood is the upscale Baptist hospital that caters to the wealthy over-the-mountain moms) then that should be a huge red flag that something is wrong with the culture of that hospital. And no birth plan will prevent Crazy Nurse from trying to hold your baby inside while they wait for the doctor to get there. Only litigation can force hospitals to change their protocols to prevent those kinds of crazy, dangerous practices.

[Barb_]

I've heard this from some midwives and doulas as well though, and not because they don't think moms should have choices. It was more in terms of personality types - people who more inclined to control how things happen may not always be the most effective at coping with birth. I've also heard a version of it which says, the shorter the birth plan, the more likely it will be useful and effective.

 

I even knew one doula who felt it was much better to talk about these things but not create a formal birth plan.

It's true--I've heard this too. They've probably picked it up from traditional medical personnel. When I've heard it from these folks (who weren't aware of my home birth history), it has been said with an eyeroll. One nurse alluded to the fact that the existence of a birth plan just makes the doc dig in and insist on doing things his way. I got the feeling they saw it as the first volley in a power struggle.

 

ETA to add: I will admit that my birthing days are long past. So things may have shifted in the intervening years.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Barb_

[Bluegoat]

The problem with just talking about these things (with your midwife or doctor) is that your doctor isn't going to be there when you walk through the doors of the hospital. You are going to have to deal with Random Nurse. And Random Nurse has no idea what you talked about with your doctor nor does she have the time to sit at your bedside and chat through your feelings about ______ (fill in the blank: continuous monitoring, pitocin, epidurals, staying in bed on your back, etc). That birth plan is what quickly and easily communicates that you are "one of those moms" to Random Nurse so that she pauses and asks permission before barreling ahead with all the routine interventions.

 

I have also long suspected that having your birth plan forwarded to the hospital ahead of time prevents you from winding up with Nightmare Nurse. If you call up to L&D to tell them you're on the way and they see that birth plan, the chances are better that Nightmare Nurse won't be willing to deal with "one of those moms" and a more tolerant nurse will be assigned instead.

 

But nothing helps in a hospital like Brookwood. If a hospital has a 50% c-section rate when they are not the hospital treating the poor or the high-risk cases (UAB & St.Vincent's take on that role in the Birmingham area - Brookwood is the upscale Baptist hospital that caters to the wealthy over-the-mountain moms) then that should be a huge red flag that something is wrong with the culture of that hospital. And no birth plan will prevent Crazy Nurse from trying to hold your baby inside while they wait for the doctor to get there. Only litigation can force hospitals to change their protocols to prevent those kinds of crazy, dangerous practices.

 

I agree - I think these are good reasons to chooe to put a birth plan on paper, especially in some places where you may not have someone with you all the time. 

 

But I think the idea that birth plans, especially complex or detailed ones, don't always best correspond to sucess in achiving ones goals, is also a true insight to some extent.  It can also tend to be about trying to control a situation that is by nature fluid and changeable and that needs a particular kind of focus but also being in the moment.

 

 I know my dh, who has a different temperament than I about such thing, found the birth plan to be a barrier - he is a person who tends to make a plan and stick to it, or sees rules as things meant to be followed.  As soon as I deviated from the plan, because what I had intended didn't work as I had hoped, in his view the whole thing was useless and a failure - he didn't see that really it was about a set of principles, or that it was always meant to have a lot of flexibility in it, or something we could adapt to carry on from there. He just wondered why we bothered at all at that point and was at a loss for what to do.