Married men and strippers

[ktgrok]

Also, most of my friends do visit strip clubs and think there is nothing wrong with it. They are still my friends. It doesn't change our friendship, but I won't change my opinion of it for my family.

[JustEm]

I totally agree here but I'd probably delete the word almost.

 

Dudes, what CWs husband did to get established and pay off school debt is their business. I'm not sure what purpose is served but to display one's own belief in their moral superiority in repeatedly saying they'd prefer joblessness, debt or whatnot. I think people would do well to lay off.

 

Some roller derby teams frequently have burlesque shows as fundraisers. It fits with the punk rock ethos of derby pretty well. I don't have a problem with that but I avoided training with a smaller league which made it mandatory to participate as a dancer because it was just not within my realm of comfort.

I will say that the way CW wrote her comment was not in a personal manner and I read it as more general. So I read it as if she was saying it makes sense for a husband to do it if that is one aspect of what makes the family financially stable. But in the general way I read it, it seemed like she expected it to apply to everyone. So I personally said that wasn't an option for my family. If it worked for her then good. I in no way meant to bash her. I simply didn't realize she was speaking of a personal choice and not a general statement that it's normal if it is for business.

[LucyStoner]

I think many have said that what others do is there business. I have zero care what others do. But she also implied that it was morally superior to visit strip clubs than to have debt, and I expressed an alternate opinion. In my marriage/life/morals, debt is better than strippers. To each his own.

I read her posts as an explanation of why and in response to the judgmental posts people kept piling on. Dog piling on her that he should have quit his job or whatever or your would have left him was just needless. Especially when people were saying much the same thing again and again. Dogpile, anyone?

 

I know CW can defend herself just fine but it seemed like when she did, she was just getting more and more self righteous remarks. What I saw was not helpful or informative. It was just a judgey dogpile. If you don't have a husband whose employability laid in finance and you don't have Bay Area level prices to contend with, perhaps just understand that you've lived with a different set of realities.

[heartlikealion]

I could see people voting either way on which is "worse." Viewing p*rn vs going to a strip club. Well, yes, one is a with a real human, but you aren't necessarily getting a lap dance or even staring at the woman the whole time you're there. I'm guessing some men might be having a drink and talking (if it's say, a business meeting or such. I have no idea the layout of the strip club and if the view is great from all tables).

[ktgrok]

I read her posts as an explanation of why and in response to the judgmental posts people kept piling on. Dog piling on her that he should have quit his job or whatever or your would have left him was just needless. Especially when people were saying much the same thing again and again. Dogpile, anyone?

 

I know CW can defend herself just fine but it seemed like when she did, she was just getting more and more self righteous remarks. What I saw was not helpful or informative. It was just a judgey dogpile. If you don't have a husband whose employability laid in finance and you don't have Bay Area level prices to contend with, perhaps just understand that you've lived with a different set of realities.

 

I don't know that other people were saying what she should have done, just what they would do. 

[abcmommy]

I read her posts as an explanation of why and in response to the judgmental posts people kept piling on. Dog piling on her that he should have quit his job or whatever or your would have left him was just needless. Especially when people were saying much the same thing again and again. Dogpile, anyone?

 

I know CW can defend herself just fine but it seemed like when she did, she was just getting more and more self righteous remarks. What I saw was not helpful or informative. It was just a judgey dogpile. If you don't have a husband whose employability laid in finance and you don't have Bay Area level prices to contend with, perhaps just understand that you've lived with a different set of realities.

 

 

yup

[abcmommy]

I don't know that other people were saying what she should have done, just what they would do. 

 

 

In general it is never helpful or illuminating to respond to someone's statement about what THEY did with how you would have better handled it.  Especially when you were clearly not faced w/ anything similar.

[ktgrok]

In general it is never helpful or illuminating to respond to someone's statement about what THEY did with how you would have better handled it.  Especially when you were clearly not faced w/ anything similar.

 

Well,I said we do have 100,000 dollars in debt (student loans), and I could not be okay with my husband going to strip clubs to get us out of it. So I am in a similar situation regarding debt. My husband has purposely not taken jobs that would require that kind of situation, and yes, they have come up. Usually with the more travel heavy positions. 

 

But I really am okay with others going. I just don't want MY husband going. I may just be more jealous than most women. 

[MomatHWTK]

There are lots of decisions that I have observed others making with regard to their lives and families that I would never find acceptable. However, in most circumstances, I refrain from pointing out what I deem to be absolutely wrong choices on the part of those individuals. For instance, I would personally prioritize paying off debt over adding to my family's expenses. I certainly can't imagine treating my children in a way that some here see as perfectly acceptable. And I don't understand the practice of evading moral imperatives through the use of technical mechanizations rather than just admitting that one does not support or believe in the rule.

 

I have not faced a situation where DH had to attend an unsavory event as a condition of his employment. But I am familiar with the industries where a person might face such compromise. And, I do accept that life sometimes involves making compromises. 

Edited July 24, 2016 by MomatHWTK

[SparklyUnicorn]

Again, to clarify, this has ZERO to do with being comfortable with the naked body. If my husband was say, an OB, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Or him going to an art gallery with nudes. Helping his elderly grandma shower. Heck, even ride your bike naked day, that would be fine. (although seems kind of risky from an injury point of view). 

 

It's not about nudity. It's about my husband paying another woman (or man) to sexually arouse him. 

 

Yes, that is precisely the point of what they do.  I can totally see why this would be upsetting to many people.

[Runningmom80]

That's a whole bunch of NOPE for me.  No idea the percentages, don't care.  It's disrespectful to women, both the ones stripping and the ones the husbands go home to.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I couldn't care less about the nudity. The older I get, the less I care.

 

It's about the commodification of nudity. And frankly, most of the time, female nudity. For, most of the time, the male gaze. 

 

It's not cool for me or those close to me to willingly and enthusiastically buy into that.

 

(Theoretically, there could be a strip club that would be OK, but so far as I'm aware, female owned, profit sharing with co-ed strippers who don't enact a sexuality for the straight male gaze only and who choose to strip in an economic environment of choice doesn't exist in my city).

 

I'm with Quill, I'd take debt over that. Life does involve some compromises, but truly, I do not believe that 'compulsory' attendance at strip clubs is one of those worth making. Besides anything else, change starts with the individual who stands up and says no. I guarantee that the one man who says he's not happy to do business in a strip club will have other men breathing a sigh of relief that someone said it.

 

Plenty of men ( and women) just want to do their job, and go home to their partner, cat, kids, hobby, friends, whatever, without faking some sort of toxic male bonhomie in a room full of naked women. 

 

When younger I was a lot more insecure and would have felt bad about it I think.  Now?  I'm like...whatever...  But I really do find it to be a bizarre form of entertainment. 

 

 

[TravelingChris]

Do these industries where it is common to have business meetings in strip clubs have any females working who should be in that meeting?  Because I could see that being called sexual harassment by creating a sexually charged work environment that is not appreciated.  

 

What I also wonder is how much prostitution goes on in such places or as a result of such places (like the set up is at the club but they actually go to a local motel).  

[ktgrok]

Do these industries where it is common to have business meetings in strip clubs have any females working who should be in that meeting?  Because I could see that being called sexual harassment by creating a sexually charged work environment that is not appreciated.  

 

What I also wonder is how much prostitution goes on in such places or as a result of such places (like the set up is at the club but they actually go to a local motel).  

 

Not sure. The job my husband has turned down, because it would involve strips clubs and partying in situations I'm not okay with, it is all men. 

[FaithManor]

Do these industries where it is common to have business meetings in strip clubs have any females working who should be in that meeting? Because I could see that being called sexual harassment by creating a sexually charged work environment that is not appreciated.

 

What I also wonder is how much prostitution goes on in such places or as a result of such places (like the set up is at the club but they actually go to a local motel).

Interesting point. I would think that if requiring a female to take a meeting at a strip club is harassment, then requiring a male to entertain a female client at an opposite gender strip club or holding a meeting at one would also be harassment. Really, given the liability to the company, this kind of thing would have gone the way of the dodo. Edited July 25, 2016 by FaithManor

[Tanaqui]

I'm not sure I've ever been called upon to spell it :). So I pronounce it with the oo sound, do you pronounce it with a short a sound?

 

I pronounce it with the same vowel as in "boat" or "coat", which I believe is the most common pronunciation. It's the only one I've heard, and the first one listed by Merriam-Webster (which does not list the pronunciation with the vowel found in "coot" or "boot").

 

Plenty of men ( and women) just want to do their job, and go home to their partner, cat, kids, hobby, friends, whatever, without faking some sort of toxic male bonhomie in a room full of naked women.

 

Yes, I feel about work the same way my teachers as a child felt about school: You're not there to socialize. In an ideal world, your willingness to hang out with your coworkers after working hours - at a strip bar or anywhere else - shouldn't matter at all to your job prospects.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Tanaqui

[Tap]

Do these industries where it is common to have business meetings in strip clubs have any females working who should be in that meeting?  Because I could see that being called sexual harassment by creating a sexually charged work environment that is not appreciated.  

 

What I also wonder is how much prostitution goes on in such places or as a result of such places (like the set up is at the club but they actually go to a local motel).  

Sexual harassment isn't just between opposite genders.  If the guy doesn't want to go the strip club where there are female dancers, and is coerced into going, it is still harassment. It has zero to do with what gender people identify as.  

 

But, since these meetings are usually in the evening, the employee can say they don't want to go.  They may not stay in that position, or if they do, they may have lower sales quotas due to not getting the clients who want to be entertained in that manner.  Employers are usually pretty open about the entertainment expectations if an employee wants to know, ahead of applying for a job. 

 

Half of my husband's coworkers are women.  They were just as likely as the men to go the strip clubs. BTW, the person I know, who frequents strip clubs the most (with women dancers) is a heterosexual girl I used to work with.  lol   She liked to sleep with men, but loved to watch women dance. lol

 

My husbands coworkers would go to company sponsored dinners and then the group would go out on their own afterward.  There was a clear line between the corporate credit cards getting put away....and the group continuing the night on their own dime.  Once people started paying for their own drinks/food/entertainment they were no longer employees, and just a group of friends hanging out.

[Arcadia]

Do these industries where it is common to have business meetings in strip clubs have any females working who should be in that meeting? Because I could see that being called sexual harassment by creating a sexually charged work environment that is not appreciated.

 

What I also wonder is how much prostitution goes on in such places or as a result of such places (like the set up is at the club but they actually go to a local motel).

I have a few salesladies in my former workplace who attended client meetings at bars, night clubs that have probably bribe the vice squad. Lap dancing and scantily clad waitresses are to be expected. They can don't handle those "sleazy" accounts but that could mean lots less sales commission depending on their locale. One entertainment bill for drinks only submitted for expense claim under entertaining clients had a more than $200 tip for each waitress added to the credit card bill. It was for a contract worth millions so the entertainment expense wasn't unusual.

[Meadowlark]

Yeah, happened here too and I was devastated. It was before we were married, and he went to a Bachelor party. There was a stripper there and apparently she gave him a little lap dance, and more importantly, he admitted to touching her. I was totally heartbroken to think that he would put his hands on another woman.

 

My parents on the other hand, actually said to me "he wouldn't be normal if he wasn't "excited" by her"...which made me scratch my head and really think about that. I did make it VERY clear that it was never ever to happen again, and in 11 years, I don't believe that it has.

[flyingiguana]

I can only see three possible reasons for attending a strip club regularly:

 

- looking for arousal

 

- demeaning the strippers (usually = putting down women)

 

- pretending to be grown up

 

None of them look all that pretty to me.  It's not that I'm morally opposed to someone going, or to someone stripping, but I'm just left scratching my head at the last two reasons. (Maybe the strippers don't feel they're being demeaned, but I would bet that a majority of the customers think they are)

 

And to be honest, I have trouble believing the first reason even works unless one is a bit of a psychopath.  Even for men, isn't there at least some minimal requirement of "relationship"?  I suppose if one invents a fantasy in one's head where there is something between you and the stripper that might work, but that would seem like a stretch in such a situation.  And I can see where a wife/SO might find that fantasy of a relationship a bit threatening to their own relationship, seeing as the stripper is right there, physically.  It's not just in the head, or on TV, or printed on a piece of paper. 

 

Or maybe men need no relationship but women assume they do and that makes it threatening to the relationship?  I mean, if the guy keeps going out to see the strippers, it's almost like a date.  I'd be miffed if my SO didn't understand that dynamic.

 

And regardless of all these other issues, I'd be pretty angry if my husband (and financial partner) was dropping that much money there.

 

 

[Ravin]

What percentage of married men go to see strippers? Does this vary by education level, profession, class, proximity to strip clubs or anything else?

 

Is it just normal male behavior? no big deal? If a married man goes to see a stripper is it infidelity in your opinion? If a man is invited to bachelor party and there is a stripper there what should he do? What would you do if you found out your husband had gone to see a stripper? How would you feel if you found out a married man in your circle of friends who you had respected a great deal went, on occasion, to see strippers? Would it change your opinion of him? Would you feel sad for a few days?

 

What do you tell your teenage sons about strippers? What would you do if you found out your teenage/20-something son went to see a stripper?

 

Any other opinions/experiences?

 

I expect that the percentage varies by presence/absence of religious convictions against it and level of discretionary income more than any other factors.

 

I do think it is normal male behavior. Men tend to be more visually stimulated when it comes to s*x, and also it's a social activity, male bonding and all that jazz, so it is reinforced by peers.

 

It is only infidelity to go see a stripper if the married couple of which one person is doing so thinks it is. In my marriage, it would not be.

 

If I found out my husband had gone to see a stripper, I would ask him why he didn't tell me, I'd have fronted him some money for a lap dance.

 

The last time he went to see a stripper, as far as I know, it was while I was deployed at sea, he went down to Mexico with a group of friends. He wrote me about it in great detail, and it provided some vicarious entertainment.

 

How I would feel about a married man in my acquaintance going to see a stripper would depend a great deal on what his spouse thought about it. I disapprove of people transgressing the agreed upon bounds of their commitments, and may see that as a measure of their integrity, but I don't necessarily expect that those bounds will be the same as in my own marriage. If there was something like that causing tension/difficulty in friends' marriage, I would feel sad for them and hope they could work it out.

 

I would encourage my teenage son to keep in mind that strippers, like other entertainers, are human beings and should be accorded respect as such, so if you go, make sure you follow the rules and don't do anything to transgress them and violate established boundaries. My DH had several strippers as roommates during our courting/early marriage. They paid their rent on time and were pleasant young women to live with.

 

If my teen/20-something went to see a stripper, I would not be bothered. I might tease him a bit by asking him if he had fun.

 

My own actual experience going into strip clubs consists of supervising sailors while on shore patrol duty in the Navy; we went and monitored periodically wherever we knew a lot of our shipmates were hanging out, and on Saipan and that meant several strip clubs.

 

I wasn't all that impressed; I've never liked smoky bars, and adding pretty girls parading about without clothing didn't change my assessment of that.

 

I was going to go to a strip club with a shipmate once in Thailand; he chickened out of going to such an establishment with a "girl" along and opted to ditch me, leaving me stuck aboard ship on a liberty day because I had no liberty buddy; I thought much less of him because of that.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I asked my husband about this.  He was like...zzzz huh?  Why do you ask?  I said well do you have any interest in going to see a stripper.  He said with or without you.  I said why would I want to go see a stripper!  He said..oh well no then.  LOL  Come on dude.  Good grief.  I told him we were discussing it on the board. 

 

I know some women go to strippers, but blah that does not appeal to me in the slightest (be they male or female). 

[foxbridgeacademy]

FWIW, the strippers I knew were basically in that sort of situation-no family support, child to care for, needed money (and the work schedule allowed them to either mostly work while their child was asleep or to have time to attend school and get a degree), and had the physical assets that made stripping a viable option. Most had studied dance or been involved in sports like gymnastics or cheer, so already had flexibility and skills that they could apply in the new job. One woman told me that she actually got groped less as a dancer than she had as a waitress at a non-strip bar, and that at the club she felt safer because the bouncers would enforce the rules on no physical contact and would escort her to her car so she got home with her tips intact. She'd moved over to stripping after having her tips taken twice in the parking lot. Plus, apparently strippers made a set hourly wage plus tips-waitresses didn't. Another told me about the same thing-she had previously held a sales job under a manager who harrassed and fired her for refusing to sleep with him. As a stripper, she got the cat calls and comments, but it was under her control and she knew that it wasn't going to go farther than she wanted it to.

 

I assume that other legal sex work may have similar appeal-yeah, some parts of the job may stink, but overall, it's a job, and possibly, a better one than other options available. I imagine the worst part of it is the stigma.

:iagree:

 

This is very similar to my friends experiences with the job.  No one touched her while at work, if they tried they were thrown out.  Most men were respectful but flirty.  The rude ones she didn't have to go near.... they would then get loud and get thrown out.  

 

 

 

 

Both of my friends did the job because there was no other way to pay the bills or feed their kids.  We don't pay a living wage in this Country how do we expect single women with no education make it on $7.25 per hour, especially when companies won't even give them full time because they're too cheap to shell out for insurance?  That's okay she can't afford the premium anyway, not if she wants her kids to eat.  

[TranquilMind]

If women want to choose to be strippers, that is their prerogative. That said, the idea that most strippers are sex positive feminists who love their jobs isn't born out in what I have seen or heard from women who worked in clubs. My maternal aunts were both strippers at different points in Florida. They were both addicts, abuse survivors and have some serious horror stories to tell.

 

The one woman owned strip club here closed. I went to school with a woman who worked there for years.. When they closed, she quit the business altogether. She had worked in other clubs and found them disgusting and heavily inclined towards cheating the dancers and pressing the dancers to break the law. There are only a handful of club owners here and no reason to assume that they run their many locations that differently.

 

We have a large issue with sex trafficking in this country. There are many women working in these clubs, in porn and prostitution whose entry to the business was anything but consensual. There's a significant overlap between women working in each of those parts of the sex industry. As such, I don't think any self respecting ethical person would line the pockets of the owners of these establishments merely for their own gratification. I don't think that this is every woman in the industry but it's not like clubs can guarantee that their club is free of it. I also will add that I know that sometimes people go because they are supposed to for work and I can't condemn them unless they are the ones demanding it still be the norm.

 

My husband and my male friends had bachelor parties that involved other activities. Most infamously, one party devolved into searching for the host's runaway cat. When the groom told me this, I must admit that I laughed and told him that he was the only person on earth I would believe that story from because he was the only person I knew unlucky enough to have his party devolve into hunting for a cat. A brew pub is more their speed. There's been laser tag, paintball and Gameworks too.

 

ETA- a little clarification.

I've heard all of the same stuff about the lack of consent of the women in the industry, but at church, from a woman who got out.  It wasn't easy for her though. 

 

Yeah, no way would those who line their pockets from using others get a thin dime from me or my house.

 

My husband's bachelor party involved playing pool. No women at all.