Going back to school - issue with placement

[HilJoy14]

My DD9 decided to work ahead/faster over the past couple of years while we've been homeschooling.  Basically, she wanted to "skip a grade", but she didn't skip work - she worked faster (well, on math, in particular - just kept pressing ahead).  So, by age, she's supposed to be finishing 3rd grade right now, but here's the work she's doing now (two weeks left of school):

• Halfway through Saxon 6/5
• 2/3 through Spelling Workout E (5th or 4th grade level, depending on how you look at it)
• She did both R&S English 4 (not the writing - just grammar) and Easy Grammar 4 this year
• History Odyssey Level 2 Ancients
• Logic stage biology (Elemental Science)
• IEW Ancients

(Logic stage because we do it with her older sister.  Although she does most of the work, other than much outlining and real essays in science/history.)

 

The public school wants her to be in 4th grade next year.  They refuse to look at her current work at all.  They just don't care.  They did a small assessment, but it was based on state/common-core standards - to which homeschoolers are NOT held accountable here.  So they asked her questions with terminology she wasn't familiar with (using their standard wording and no explanations) and then marked her down for items she didn't understand.  I feel so frustrated that she's having all of her hard work ignored, because the schools won't "skip" kids ahead here at all (which isn't even what I'm doing - I just want her working on level).

 

There is a classical private school that we're considering, too.  She might end up in 4th grade there, too, depending on their testing - because it is a more rigorous school, BUT their placement test for 5th grade math is Saxon 6/5's placement test - which she clearly qualifies for, since she's halfway through it.  And they may not be willing to let her work above grade level on math, either (take 5th grade math if they place her in 4th).  But at least I'd feel better about MOST of the work she'd be doing at that school (if not the extra money...).

 

Basically - the point of all this rambling - is just that I'm wondering if anyone else has been through this.  And if there was any real solution?  My DH says to homeschool again, but then we'll be at this same point next year.  I work and homeschool and am just getting burned out.  And the kids want more social interactions than I can provide when I'm working 5 days per week (and we have NO kids in our neighborhood).

 

Any advice on how to get her placed correctly?  And, particularly, on how to get schools to let her work ahead on math when they don't have that as a usual option?  Thanks...

[wapiti]

Many, many PS offer few to no options for acceleration.  They are truly one-size-fits all.  What you are experiencing is not unusual.

 

Have you looked at the district website to see if they offer anything under gifted programming? It does sound like what you are asking for is a grade skip (that's just what it's often called, or whole grade acceleration), or in lieu of a grade skip, subject acceleration for math.  Subject acceleration is probably even rarer than whole grade acceleration at the elementary level but that's just a guess.

 

Ask whether there are reading groups by level - this is common within the classroom.  Math is a tough nut to crack - I assume you will ask them to give her the 6/5 placement test.  One option is afterschooling math.

 

If you could homeschool for two more years, often in middle school there are more options for working ahead in math.

 

You might also ask for ideas on the Accelerated Learning forum.

[Ellie]

My DD9 decided to work ahead/faster over the past couple of years while we've been homeschooling.  Basically, she wanted to "skip a grade", but she didn't skip work - she worked faster (well, on math, in particular - just kept pressing ahead).  So, by age, she's supposed to be finishing 3rd grade right now, but here's the work she's doing now (two weeks left of school):

• Halfway through Saxon 6/5
• 2/3 through Spelling Workout E (5th or 4th grade level, depending on how you look at it)
• She did both R&S English 4 (not the writing - just grammar) and Easy Grammar 4 this year
• History Odyssey Level 2 Ancients
• Logic stage biology (Elemental Science)
• IEW Ancients

(Logic stage because we do it with her older sister.  Although she does most of the work, other than much outlining and real essays in science/history.)

 

The public school wants her to be in 4th grade next year.  They refuse to look at her current work at all.  They just don't care.  They did a small assessment, but it was based on state/common-core standards - to which homeschoolers are NOT held accountable here.  So they asked her questions with terminology she wasn't familiar with (using their standard wording and no explanations) and then marked her down for items she didn't understand.  I feel so frustrated that she's having all of her hard work ignored, because the schools won't "skip" kids ahead here at all (which isn't even what I'm doing - I just want her working on level).

 

There is a classical private school that we're considering, too.  She might end up in 4th grade there, too, depending on their testing - because it is a more rigorous school, BUT their placement test for 5th grade math is Saxon 6/5's placement test - which she clearly qualifies for, since she's halfway through it.  And they may not be willing to let her work above grade level on math, either (take 5th grade math if they place her in 4th).  But at least I'd feel better about MOST of the work she'd be doing at that school (if not the extra money...).

 

Basically - the point of all this rambling - is just that I'm wondering if anyone else has been through this.  And if there was any real solution?  My DH says to homeschool again, but then we'll be at this same point next year.  I work and homeschool and am just getting burned out.  And the kids want more social interactions than I can provide when I'm working 5 days per week (and we have NO kids in our neighborhood).

 

Any advice on how to get her placed correctly?  And, particularly, on how to get schools to let her work ahead on math when they don't have that as a usual option?  Thanks...

 

By age, she would be in fourth grade next year. It is not unreasonable for the school to place her there. She will have to prove to her teachers and whoever else that she is able to be skipped a grade level. That isn't unreasonable, either. Children in the schools have to do quite a bit more than that to be skipped a grade. You could enroll her in fourth, and then petition to have her skipped after the teacher has had the opportunity to see that your dd is advanced, but as long as the school separates children by grade level (as opposed to the one-room school model), that's something she'll have to deal with.

 

 

ETA: The assessment they did was valid. Of course there would be no explanations. That is the nature of a test. And she will necessarily compared with public school children. They are her peers now.

 

I would have recommended that you test her before enrolling her, even though it is not required in your state. You might have gotten more mileage if you'd had test scores.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Ellie

[EKS]

I would place her where she would do best socially.  

 

And I am saying this as a person whose son skipped first one and then two grades in a b&m school.  We went back to homeschooling after that second year, have homeschooled for two years, and next year he will be attending the local high school with no skips.  This is after doing two years of solid high school level work at home.  I have no illusions about him learning anything, and if he does it will be a happy surprise.

[Upptacka]

What are her (and your) reasons for wanting to skip a grade?

 

Does she feel more comfortable socially with kids a year older?

[HilJoy14]

What are her (and your) reasons for wanting to skip a grade?

 

Does she feel more comfortable socially with kids a year older?

 

Yes, she does feel more comfortable with older kids.  She has had few friends her own age her whole life - almost all were older.

 

I just want her to work on level.  I don't consider it skipping a grade at this point.  I registered her last year with the district as a 4th grader, because we were doing 4th grade work (and the district's homeschool liaison told me that was fine - but it holds no weight for getting her into 5th grade this year).  I have no concerns socially with her being a year ahead (really just 6 months ahead, since she's a February birthday).

 

My main priority is for it not to be a "wasted" year for her, going over things we already did this year.  She's motivated and wants to be challenged...

[Momling]

I wouldn't be pushing to skip her. She will have plenty to learn in fourth grade. I have a third grade foster daughter and a lot of the math they do with the new common core standards is pretty impressive and certainly not what I did in third grade. It should be a nice complement to Saxon and I bet she'll do great! Just because she was doing fourth grade work this year doesn't mean she'll be repeating the same stuff at all.

[Arcadia]

My kid that was offered a grade skip by the public school was at least two grades ahead across subjects. It was the cheapest solution for the school district as they no longer had a GATE program. He had to write "two grades ahead" besides being ahead in reading, vocabulary and grammar. Writing ability was their benchmark/criteria for language arts.

 

Do you have any past standardized tests scores that shows a consistent pattern of her being ahead? Mine loves bureaucracy so having a stack of test results speaks for itself without doubt.

 

Subject acceleration was hard to get officially but my kid's public school teachers let him do whatever he wanted for math during class time as long as the school aren't paying and he stayed at his seat and was not disturbing others.

[heartlikealion]

Well it's too late now, but might have been best to find this out earlier or tell her to slow down because there was no hurry. But, it sounds like she would have been bored if she'd slowed down. An issue either way. :/

 

I kind of accidentally found out that in my area they won't do a placement test or skip ahead until the child is at least second grade level, so if you homeschool for K, you still need to enroll in K if that's what matches your birthday. One lady I knew wanted to homeschool for K and then try to enroll him in first when his birthday would allow enrollment (he wasn't old enough to enroll in K when she wanted him to go), but that wouldn't have worked so I don't know if she did choose to do any homeschooling. My ds is scheduled to take a placement test this month (private school) and dh said if he somehow placed below we wouldn't want him to repeat and we wouldn't enroll him. I said I think if the test results came out like that then I would just ask the school what to do to catch him up rather than refuse to enroll him (because I need a break). In your case, could you ask what specifically she would need to score to skip a grade? Yes, I'm calling it skipping because it's as if she never enrolled in that grade in their eyes. I personally skipped K and went to first (birthday cut off issues after a move. They gave my parents a choice which grade to put me in) and later skipped a math level (went to Alg. instead of pre-Alg. in 8th grade. The rest of my high school math classes I was in a different grade than most if not all of my classmates. I liked it). I was not in any AP classes or gifted programs.

 

Have you said much to the school? Asked the "right" questions? What's the summer reading? What will they be reviewing the first few weeks? (I don't know if those are the right questions, just ideas). Suggest a compromise? As mentioned above, maybe they want to observe her a while first. Tell them that if they will not honor your request it may not be the right place for her? Good luck, keep us posted.

[Pen]

My first question is: She's halfway through Saxon 6/5 with what sort of understanding and test scores? I assume she understands it all and is getting 100% or close, but just saying someone is ahead in work does not necessarily mean ahead and doing extremely well in it. Can she keep working on her own for math because she likes to do that even if she is placed in 4th next year? Then if she clearly knows it all and is getting straight A 100% type grades, maybe they'd move her ahead and she'd still be making progress on her own.

 

 

 

I was more than 6 months skipped ahead in school, so maybe for only 6 months this does not apply, but I think it would have been better if  I had been with my more similar age group.

 

It was not such a difference at 5th grade. But when in middle school and high school and college others were reaching puberty, driving, voting, being allowed into bars,  a year or two more ahead of me it became a problem. 

[EKS]

You could get a copy of the Iowa Acceleration Scale Manual.  It gives a list of considerations for grade skipping, not all of which are academic.  Once you tally everything up, it gives a number that indicates whether the child is a good candidate for acceleration.  The school may be more inclined to listen to something like that.

[Momto4inSoCal]

Unfortunately if you send her to public school they have to test her according to common core standards if you are in a common core state. The math standards are closer to Singapore than to Saxon. It's a different way of doing math so she may need to be placed at her regular grade level to learn the new style of math. If the school has a gate program you can push to have her tested for that. I believe that test is based more on IQ than on standards so she shouldn't have the problem of not understanding the language. Also common core language arts is much different than what most homeschoolers are doing. They are big on inference, vocabulary in context etc. Reading is based more on non fiction rather than fiction. Grammar isn't really tested at all so none of her knowledge in R&S will help her on the placement test. You are basically testing her on a core knowledge that she hasn't learned so she will have to start below where she's at to learn it. Here's the link to the english page http://www.corestandards.org/ELA-Literacy/W/4/ if you click on each strand (ie writing, reading, listening etc) you can see what they want the students to know. Here are the math  http://www.corestandards.org/Math/Content/4/OA/ . If you have the option I would go to the classical school. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Momto4inSoCal

[HilJoy14]

The school is completely unwilling to look at the Iowa Acceleration Scale.  I asked.  :)

 

I really appreciate all these thoughts, everyone!  It's helpful to hear different opinions.

 

As it happens, I skipped 3rd grade myself (January birthday), so she'd be exactly where I was in school if she was allowed to be in the higher grade.  I had a great experience with it, myself.  My parents were really strict, so I wasn't allowed to do a lot of things my friends did anyway - not because of my age, but because of my parents.  I think that "helped" me to not worry that I couldn't drive/date/whatever when my friends were.

 

But reading some of these posts have helped me to see that maybe being in 4th grade wouldn't be so bad (although I'm sad for her that she put in extra effort that is being overlooked by the schools).  I'm not sure that 4th grade in the public school is the right place, but I'd feel fine about 4th grade in the private school, I think...

[heartlikealion]

Unfortunately if you send her to public school they have to test her according to common core standards if you are in a common core state. The math standards are closer to Singapore than to Saxon. It's a different way of doing math so she may need to be placed at her regular grade level to learn the new style of math. If the school has a gate program you can push to have her tested for that. I believe that test is based more on IQ than on standards so she shouldn't have the problem of not understanding the language. Also common core language arts is much different than what most homeschoolers are doing. They are big on inference, vocabulary in context etc. Reading is based more on non fiction rather than fiction. Grammar isn't really tested at all so none of her knowledge in R&S will help her on the placement test. You are basically testing her on a core knowledge that she hasn't learned so she will have to start below where she's at to learn it. Here's the link to the english page http://www.corestandards.org/ELA-Literacy/W/4/ if you click on each strand (ie writing, reading, listening etc) you can see what they want the students to know. Here are the math  http://www.corestandards.org/Math/Content/4/OA/ . If you have the option I would go to the classical school. 

 

According to this list it sounds like the Saxon homeschool editions are not aligned, but their public school versions are?? Depending on edition, anyway.

http://hsroadmap.org/master-list-for-s

 

We use MM and the new light blue version is aligned which is the one we use. That was part of the reason I bought it, because I knew we may shift to b&m school later.

 

OP, you may want to visit this site http://hsroadmap.org/common-core-project to see where your materials land on the aligned/not aligned spectrum.

[JanetC]

I have a kid who tried fourth grade at a science/tech magnet school. She did not learn one bit of math the whole year, though they made her do a ton of writing which I had not pushed on her and she learned more options to PowerPoint than I ever knew existed. She hated it by the end of the year and came right back home. They tested her reading and it came in at 12th grade - she LOVES Shakespeare to this day - but didn't even offer the gifted program and I was too new to the system to ask for it.

 

If the placement isn't right, it's not going to be something you can fix later. About the only thing the teacher did for us is let her skip the math homework, which was so easy it was driving her insane. (She made 100's on tests in her sleep.)

 

If 4th grade with no accommodations for accelerated learning is not a good fit, can you look into other school options?

Edited June 9, 2016 by JanetC

[mamiof5]

I think bit really depends on the school/school district. Some of them are very rigorous regarding the age/grade correspondence...they do placement depending on date of birth regardless of other circumstances.

[fourisenough]

That's why I didn't consider sending mine back to school until upper middle school/high school level. At that point, they were 'leveled' in all their core academic classes: honors section of English, geometry, advanced science track, 2nd year of French, etc. This allowed them to be in their age-grade, but working at the appropriate academic level.

 

My DD11 is starting to talk about school, but she's just entering 6th and will be doing high-school level math, English, science, and French this fall. She would stagnate and be bored off her gourd if she entered school now.

 

I'm afraid you're at the school's mercy regarding placement. You just have to decide if the "pros" of having her back in school outweigh the "con" of her being under-challenged.

[Library Momma]

I'm going to preface this by saying that from being in this forum for a number of years I have come to the understanding that school in my state/part of the country functions very differently from other places.  That being said, your initial post seems to be missing some information.  You didn't mention anything about in class differentiation.  Typically, at least here, a fourth grade classroom would have students in a number of different math and reading  groups and levels based on ability.  Usually it ranges from the lowest level which is comprised of students on grade level through students that have far exceeded middle and even high school level abilities.  If a fourth grade student is below "grade" based on testing they would be pulled out for special assistance to get them up to speed.  Acceleration and grade skipping (usually limited to specific subjects) does exist but it is for children identified as G&T with a corresponding IEP.  It is for exceptional circumstances such as a 10 year old taking a HS  Calculus class.  I have seen people move here from other parts of the country asking about acceleration and "gifted classes," not really understanding how differentiation is handled here.  Perhaps that is the situation you are in.

 

 

[BusyMom5]

In her public school class there will be kids of varying abilities- some very advanced/gifted, and other who are struggling.  I think the true placement will be okay.  The LA stuff all just repeats itself, so it's not like she's really advanced in that- once they can read past around a 6th grade level there really isn't a lot else to test for.  Spelling varies greatly- some kids can spell everything automatically, others struggle.  Sometimes teachers will give advanced spelling lists, sometimes they don't have the time.  The main thing I see a reason for advancing is the math, but coming from a school w/ CC and going to Saxon, I think that you would probably be okay to go ahead and leave her in 4th.  It will take a year or so to get adjusted to the new vocabulary they use (for you, too!), and the way they want problems approached.   It is also possible that the public school may go ahead and let her go to the grade above for math after a month or so if it's clear she's that much ahead, but that they do not want to get your hopes up. 

[Lecka]

This is just another thought, but there is also "deeper but not faster" differentiation here, where kids are doing the same level but they are doing harder versions of the same level. I think it is like they do more word problems? I hear kids think it is interesting who do it and parents are satisfied.

 

There is also acceleration but it is like a math group of kids in that grade, not like moving kids up a grade.

 

She is not so advanced that there would not be enough kids in her grade to make up a math group at her level, here.

 

On paper these kids are staying with their grade, though.

 

If you have options, maybe you can ask about things like this?

 

I also agree, she is going to be expected to know the common core language. I don't think it is that big of a deal, but I could see it being frustrated.

 

For me (as a parent) they are big on "number bonds" and they call borrowing and carrying by the same name, regrouping.

 

They do also care a lot about kids setting up word problems.

 

That is compared to math I had when I was in school.

[Lecka]

I also know one girl who is advanced this way, and she seems (entering 6th grade in the Fall) not to be a girl who is going to develop at all early.

 

She has got a lot of friends, but I think it would be hard for her to be in with girls a year older who are mostly already developing in 6th grade. She would look very childish if they were in the same grade.

 

I get it that it can be good anyway, but to me it seems good she can be accelerated but still with her own grade.

 

If there is just one or two kids, they can move them into the accelerated group of kids one or two grades ahead of them, too, until they are about ready for the next school, and then I think they just work with the 6th grade math teacher on their level and doing math competition stuff.

[tm919]

I'm going to preface this by saying that from being in this forum for a number of years I have come to the understanding that school in my state/part of the country functions very differently from other places.  That being said, your initial post seems to be missing some information.  You didn't mention anything about in class differentiation.  Typically, at least here, a fourth grade classroom would have students in a number of different math and reading  groups and levels based on ability.  Usually it ranges from the lowest level which is comprised of students on grade level through students that have far exceeded middle and even high school level abilities.  If a fourth grade student is below "grade" based on testing they would be pulled out for special assistance to get them up to speed.  Acceleration and grade skipping (usually limited to specific subjects) does exist but it is for children identified as G&T with a corresponding IEP.  It is for exceptional circumstances such as a 10 year old taking a HS  Calculus class.  I have seen people move here from other parts of the country asking about acceleration and "gifted classes," not really understanding how differentiation is handled here.  Perhaps that is the situation you are in.

Yes, our local schools have grouping by class (starting in 3) and within class (starting in K)... but I get the impression this may not be the case everywhere? Even in K, 1 year or more ahead is the 20% or so of each class, and since most schools seem to use Saxon a year behind, your daughter would be in one of the upper groups but not totally alone.

 

Edit: I should also mention that from parents whose kids are already taking the common core tests, they say the first year their child has to take all those tests and all that prep is STRESSFUL so your daughter might have her hands full, even if the work itself is below level.

Edited June 9, 2016 by tm919

[Arcadia]

Even in K, 1 year or more ahead is the 20% or so of each class, and since most schools seem to use Saxon a year behind, your daughter would be in one of the upper groups but not totally alone.

The private schools here use Saxon a year ahead. They start Saxon K in preK. The private schools do standardized tests like Stanford 10 so they want to look good too for test results.

[HilJoy14]

Edit: I should also mention that from parents whose kids are already taking the common core tests, they say the first year their child has to take all those tests and all that prep is STRESSFUL so your daughter might have her hands full, even if the work itself is below level.

 

This is why I feel like I've decided against public school.  I don't want her to spend a year trying to figure out Common Core.  That's not "learning" - that's just "performing to standards".  So, hopefully things will work out with the private school.  I think 4th grade will work in private school (even though we'll have her tested for 5th - but their placement standards are higher, so I doubt she'll make the cut-off there).  It's a classical school, so I'll be MUCH happier with the curriculum there, I know...