disappointment and hard to parent kids

[Carra]

Sorry I didn't read all posts.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Carra

[ktgrok]

I have set him up with a desk in my room, offered to let him use my bed and his laptop (he's like me, likes to work in bed), offered to take him to Starbucks or the library or Panera to work with no distractions, etc. 

 

Making him do it next to me would be another giant ugly battle that just can't happen every day and have a safe place for the littles. Honestly...it just isn't a healthy environment. It is to the point of letting him screw up, or letting him screw up the other ones. That's just where I'm at. 

 

In good news, he finished up his game and is back to reading. I think the C yesterday in Latin was a wake up call. He needs some decent grades in these classes to bring his GPA up. 

 

Oh, and for whomever asked, I forget, yes, he self medicates with caffeine. Coffee usually, sometimes soda ( not as often, due to the sugar. Luckily he doesn't drink his coffee with much sugar). The issue is to make sure he drinks the coffee before/during schoolwork, not saving it for when he's gaming in order to play better. Yes, he will do that. 

[Happy]

I know people who are offering advice have good intentions, I really do. On behalf of Katie, though (and maybe myself), I'd like to mention that the combination of AS, anxiety and depression is extremely difficult. Typical motivating techniques don't work (they really don't) and the consequences of trying them can be very difficult to endure for the entire family. Please honor Katie's request and pray that today and the rest of the summer go smoothly. 

 

ETA: There really are no "easy" answers. 

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

 

 

 

I think this post is unnecessary.

 

My experience comes from raising a son with depression, ADD, anger management issues, and heaping helping of RAD.

 

There are no easy answers, but I shared what helped in our household...plus hugs because I know what it's like to live through that.

[theelfqueen]

Yeah... you have so much more experience than I do, and you know your kid ... For my kid -  Muppet Boy does NOT do schoolwork in his bedroom. I need to be more supervisory than that to keep him on track AND he needs the physical separation of spaces. His bedroom is a place where he can be 'lazy' or 'do nothing' or read for pleasure... or spend hours sorting and organizing Magic decks. If he takes his work there he gets distracted by the call of all those things. 

Having his school space separate from that helps school to 'be school' and him to stay focused. His chromebook lives on his desk in our 'schoolroom' so he goes there for non-school stuff too but I think it helps.

When he's lagging I have him work at the kitchen table which he HATES.

 

[ondreeuh]

I understand the need/desire to avoid ugly confrontations, but I have to wonder how he is going to be ready to do DE next year if this is how he is. When I think of a successful DE student, I think of someone who is mature (takes responsibility for their own actions), has strong prerequisite skills, has good time management, is able to keep track of deadlines and turn work in on time, and is able to complete a high-school course in a semester. Is your son really that person? He has poor time management, doesn't keep track of deadlines and doesn't turn work in on time, and is working at half-speed in his courses. From what you've described, it doesn't sound like he is anywhere near ready to be successful in college classes. Those DE grades he earns become part of his permanent college transcript. I would not enroll him in DE courses until I was sure he could get As or Bs - I would need to see strong grades on outsourced classes in non-preferred subjects ALONG WITH independence in time management and planning. Online high school courses might be a lot more lenient than DE courses. 

 

My rising 9th grader is a diligent student, excellent at time management, completes courses ahead of schedule, and takes instruction well, and yet there is no way I would consider even a regular high school class for him right now. He has poor planning skills and weak writing, and I want more time to work on those before I feed him to the sharks.

[ondreeuh]

And the reason I am so wary about DE classes is because I saw how my kid's issues didn't get better in public high school or in college. The outside accountability wasn't enough to keep her motivated to stay on-task and organized. She did take ADHD meds for a while and it made a giant difference, but she had side effects and everything went back downhill when she stopped the meds. She is hoping to get a new prescription so that she can try again. In the meantime, she has not done too hot in college and is now taking a break and working. Meanwhile, she is a super smart kid who has a lot of locked-up potential.

 

I know your son is against meds, but it is something I would keep working on. I don't know his objection to them, but if he's willing to give himself caffeine, does he realize that ADHD meds are just a controlled-release form of a similar stimulant?

Edited May 24, 2016 by ondreeuh

[The Girls' Mom]

Yet for some, the outside accountability of DE courses is exactly what they need to do well.  If I had waited to put my dd in, she'd be 30 before she set foot into a classroom.  DE is what helped her realize the importance of those things far more than mom consequences ever did.  Her son has already pulled Bs in DE classes.

[Kassia]

 

 

And other kids take the hard way, face the consequences, and still don't learn, at least not until they either mature or face the same consequences over and over.

 

My son is in that last category. 

I go through this with my son.  It's like we go through the same difficulties over and over again, and it's hard to understand how he doesn't learn from his mistakes.  

 

Have you heard about "defense mode" from Asperger Experts?  https://www.aspergerexperts.com/  They talk a lot about motivation and trying to get your child to do things.  Sometimes, when I am very frustrated with my son, I try to remember that he has issues that I don't and I try to understand what he's going through.  The Autism Discussion page on Facebook is very good, too.  

 

 

[ondreeuh]

Yet for some, the outside accountability of DE courses is exactly what they need to do well.  If I had waited to put my dd in, she'd be 30 before she set foot into a classroom.  DE is what helped her realize the importance of those things far more than mom consequences ever did.  Her son has already pulled Bs in DE classes.

 

Bs despite lots of missing work in subjects he likes. What about math, literature, composition, history???

[mamiof5]

I tried reading most of the posts, but with lots of interruptions. I remember hearing about him before. Can't remember if you have considered putting him in school? I don't know...maybe a team of folks who can help, having to respond to someone different from mom? If he goes to school and dies or doesn't do his work it'd be his problem, it's between him and the teacher. I am not familiar with situations like this one, but that quick thought went through my mind... just wondering if it would be better for all of you? Many prayers your way, this must be really hard and stressful :(

[FriedClams]

I know you don't like the idea of cutting of internet, but since he can't get his work done, I'd do it. No internet at home. No data on a phone. Nothing.

 

But, when the work is done is be happy to drive him to the library for 2 hours of internet time.

 

Also, I haven't followed all you posts, but am wondering if dad is around. At this age (I have one slightly younger) an authoritative man seems to do wonders where mom cannot.

[ktgrok]

I understand the need/desire to avoid ugly confrontations, but I have to wonder how he is going to be ready to do DE next year if this is how he is. When I think of a successful DE student, I think of someone who is mature (takes responsibility for their own actions), has strong prerequisite skills, has good time management, is able to keep track of deadlines and turn work in on time, and is able to complete a high-school course in a semester. Is your son really that person? He has poor time management, doesn't keep track of deadlines and doesn't turn work in on time, and is working at half-speed in his courses. From what you've described, it doesn't sound like he is anywhere near ready to be successful in college classes. Those DE grades he earns become part of his permanent college transcript. I would not enroll him in DE courses until I was sure he could get As or Bs - I would need to see strong grades on outsourced classes in non-preferred subjects ALONG WITH independence in time management and planning. Online high school courses might be a lot more lenient than DE courses. 

 

My rising 9th grader is a diligent student, excellent at time management, completes courses ahead of schedule, and takes instruction well, and yet there is no way I would consider even a regular high school class for him right now. He has poor planning skills and weak writing, and I want more time to work on those before I feed him to the sharks.

 

I have all those worries. However, I have no other real option for him. Public school didn't work. He lasted a semester. Private school is something he doesn't want to do, and both of those options mean keeping track of 7 classes a day, rather than 4 classes at a time, not scheduled all on the same day. And private school means longer hours in class around lots of people which drains him and leaves him less able to do work when he gets home. 

 

Trust me, I'm very scared he will mess up. But also know that I really can't find another option.

 

As for the confrontations, if it was just him and me I wouldn't avoid the confrontations. I can handle it. But the effect on my younger children is unacceptable. Period. It's just incredibly unhealthy for them. 

[Guest]

Thanks all. I went back after his break and knocked, telling him it was time to get back to school work please. No real response (he said sure, but didn't stop what he was doing.) I left, hoping he'd finish up and get back to school work, but also had ordered grocery delivery and included some mountain dew (his favorite, but not something he gets on a regular basis). So that got delivered so I went and knocked again and told him I had Mountain Dew in the kitchen if he wants it. About 5 minutes later he came out to where I was on the patio and said thanks for the soda (huge!) and then told me he'd figured it out and if he does 8 more lessons of reading today he will have finished the first half of the history course. Then he'll go back and answer the questions for each lesson. So he is taking some control. I just said "Ok, good" and went back to cleaning the pool. At which point we found a frog, rinsed it off to hope the chlorine doesn't kill it, and he released it outside. Then he came back in. I'm about to check and make sure he's working.

Hey, at least he is thinking through details and trying some sort of self made schedule, however short term. You just do the best you can and he is old enough that it's not like he can be forced into anything (and smart enough he can't be coerced). He is going to have to figure out his own goals and system and I don't think you can try anything else on your end that you haven't already tried ten times over.

 

Don't go crazy in the interim :(

[MerryAtHope]

Praying for your relationship with him and for the dynamics of working with him!

 

One thing I found helpful was to say, "What's your plan for school today?" 

 

That leaves him in control and in charge of his schedule ("I'm going to play this game for another hour, and then read history for an hour, and then play for another hour..." may not be the plan you love, but it's a plan, and if it gets that day's work done, great). 

 

Then it's on him, not on you. No arguing needed. Questions like "what's your plan," and "what do you have to do today?" allow him to be in control and teach him to start telling himself what to do instead of feeling that inner rebellion against mom telling him what to do. If he isn't sure what he has to do, you can say, "Make a list and then when you know your plan, come tell me." 

 

You may actually want to create a syllabus for his remaining work, with due dates. Let him know it will work just like his online classes--he can turn in the work on time, or he can let it slip and choose zeros for those assignments, which you would unfortunately have to average into his grade for the class. But that gives both of you something concrete, and he can finish out this year.

 

I hope the outsourced classes go better next year! (((Hugs)))

 

I wouldn't say "thanks" when he does school work (chores, yes, school, no). I'd just say, "that's a good plan," or "good for you." He's not doing this for you. He's doing it for himself. 

 

 

[ktgrok]

When he was in public school he started having more and more "sick days" where he would refuse to get up and go. He does have allergies, and the school building was next door to a concrete plant. Many students and teachers blame concrete dust for chronic sinus infections and trouble, and I don't know if that was it or what, but he would just refuse to go, and he WAS snotty, face swollen, etc. Despite allergy meds. A disciplined student would have gone anyway, but he's not, so the slightest reason to stay home was seized. Again, leading to him getting further behind. 

[JoJosMom]

I now that the long term plan is a four-year college, but would there be any value in having him test for a GED and then do community college (first)?  I was just wondering if giving him more control in an adult setting would help with some of the oppositional behavior.

Edited May 24, 2016 by JoJosMom

[MegP]

If he is not self motivated now, why would he suddenly  become self motivated in college? It honestly does not sound like he would do well in a 4 year college at all. 

I would outsource all his school work and not remind or nag him at all. He needs to sink or swim on his own-he won't have you motivating him or reminding him in college.

 

ETA-I am a Love and Logic kinda mom.

Edited May 24, 2016 by MegP

[Matryoshka]

Yet for some, the outside accountability of DE courses is exactly what they need to do well.  If I had waited to put my dd in, she'd be 30 before she set foot into a classroom.  DE is what helped her realize the importance of those things far more than mom consequences ever did.  Her son has already pulled Bs in DE classes.

 

This.  The whole reason I sent dd15 to ps is that it was glaringly obvious that she needed outside accountability, but I had the same worries about her being 'ready' for DE, and was worried about her screwing up her college GPA, so we tried ps first.

 

When he was in public school he started having more and more "sick days" where he would refuse to get up and go. He does have allergies, and the school building was next door to a concrete plant. Many students and teachers blame concrete dust for chronic sinus infections and trouble, and I don't know if that was it or what, but he would just refuse to go, and he WAS snotty, face swollen, etc. Despite allergy meds. A disciplined student would have gone anyway, but he's not, so the slightest reason to stay home was seized. Again, leading to him getting further behind. 

 

And this.  This is just what happened when dd went to ps high school.  She said she was fatigued, started getting panic attacks (sobbing till 3am or later), said her Lyme was coming back and her joints were hurting... I finally cried uncle and tried out the DE.  Wasn't perfect, she'll probably get one C - but it's better than ps.  She was just shutting down there.  She may not be getting stellar grades or turning into a model student, but she's completing the stuff with grades 'good enough' to count.  And she likes it there, she feels independent and successful (sure she may get a C in Zoology, but mom, there's a kid who got kicked out because he had a 34 average).  Oy.

 

I'll have to carefully select which classes to have her do DE there (and carefully choose profs), and cross my fingers.  She may well not end up with anything near a stellar GPA. She will not be taking honors classes. I've lowered my sights with any expectations for her.  If I can get her out with some kind of a college degree, even with a lower GPA, with which she can get gainful employment and not live in my basement as an adult, I'll call it a success.

 

I'm hoping maturity will kick in sometime. I thought it made more sense to go slower because of this lack of maturity, but this seems to be working better. She keeps telling me when she gets to 'real' (4-year) college (she's aiming for a local state school that will probably take her no matter what), that she'll be more interested in the classes and do better.  I hope so.  We'll see.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Matryoshka

[ondreeuh]

I think too there needs to be recognition of what he can control (attitude, effort) and what he can't (attention, time awareness, focus). The ADHD is a very real disability and probably has a lot more affect on his success than he realizes. Speaking from my experience as the mother of an adult child with untreated ADHD, the child can blame themselves for not trying hard enough, which then feeds into a vicious cycle of underachievement. Sure, they could try harder, but when they are so demoralized by their own continued failure, they really can't get it together to try harder when it seems futile.

 

While outside accountability can be a great solution for kids whose main issue is a personality clash or stubborn independence, I don't think it is going to be a magic bullet for a kid whose primary issue is ADHD. I wish he would consider a medication trial. I think that the ADHD is going to continue to be a huge stumbling block no matter what the setting, but it sounds like he has a TON of potential that isn't being expressed.

Edited May 24, 2016 by ondreeuh

[TammyS]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

I think you are such a great mom. I really do.

 

 

 

Remember - this doesn't matter. At all. Lots of kids are not on the artificially-imposed timetable of done-in-four-years, whether they are home-schooled/public-schooled/alternatively-schooled, whatever. Do what you need to do to preserve relationships and sanity of all involved, while moving forward at whatever pace. If he is a semester or a year late, it really doesn't matter. He should have, what, 60-80 adult years after he finishes high school? Plenty of time for the next steps in his life. An extra 6-12 months of classes is nothing. Try not to worry about this part.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

 

Yes, and you don't even have to count it as "late".  Just push everything down one semester on his transcript (so the stuff that would have counted for 9th grade gets counted for 8th, and so on).  It doesn't have to be a problem, at least on the transcript.

[ktgrok]

I now that the long term plan is a four-year college, but would there be any value in having him test for a GED and then do community college (first)?  I was just wondering if giving him more control in an adult setting would help with some of the oppositional behavior.

 

We could, but then I'd be paying for the CC classes. With DE he gets them for free. Either way he'd be at the same place taking the same classes, so might as well get them for free, you know?

[TammyS]

 

It's so very frustrating to not have people understand how it's not faulty parenting.

 

I just wanted to say that I sincerely do not believe that when people offer advice (and I totally get that you may not want it at the time, or ever) that they are implying, or thinking, that it's faulty parenting.  I really don't believe that most people think that.  They just want to help, and they offer suggestions, in the hope that it will be the 1 thing that you hadn't thought of yet.  Not because they think you're dumb or a bad parent, but because they are HOPING it will help.  But I really hope that you can consider hearing something else besides, "I think you're a bad parent," both because it's not true that people are thinking it and you don't need the added stress.

[JoJosMom]

We could, but then I'd be paying for the CC classes. With DE he gets them for free. Either way he'd be at the same place taking the same classes, so might as well get them for free, you know?

 

Ah.  Free is good.

 

So, just :grouphug: . 

[MerryAtHope]

When he was in public school he started having more and more "sick days" where he would refuse to get up and go. He does have allergies, and the school building was next door to a concrete plant. Many students and teachers blame concrete dust for chronic sinus infections and trouble, and I don't know if that was it or what, but he would just refuse to go, and he WAS snotty, face swollen, etc. Despite allergy meds. A disciplined student would have gone anyway, but he's not, so the slightest reason to stay home was seized. Again, leading to him getting further behind. 

 

Honestly, as someone with allergies, I can attest that going would have been pretty worthless. If his face is swollen and he's full of mucus despite allergy meds (which also sometimes make one feel fuzzy)--he likely wouldn't have been able to get anything out of it anyway. I doubt this one was "just excuses" though I know it can feel that way.

Edited May 24, 2016 by MerryAtHope

[ktgrok]

So he came out for food and started talking about how the Civil War is way more interesting than the other stuff he'd been reading about. So that's good! I tried to find out why he thought it was interesting, but he couldn't really tell me. 

 

If I didn't think he needed at least a cultural literacy level of knowledge in history I wouldn't be so concerned that he at least finish the course. But I think to be a decent citizen he needs at least a passing familiarity. I've already dropped the project assignments, to his great relief. But Ithink he really needs at least a passing knowledge of the basics. 

[Hilltopmom]

I have no answers, but I have an explosive, not completely NT almost 16 yr old very large boy (who prefers to spend his time gaming) & then littles at home too.

 

I understand.

Hugs.

[ktgrok]

Part of me wants to say, you like the Civil War? Fine, finish that section int eh book, watch the Ken Burns miniseries, and read a biography and a historical fiction book, and we'll call it done for the year. 

 

But it really wouldn't be fair to call 1/2 a course of Notgrass plus that a full credit of American History. I don't think. 

[TammyS]

So he came out for food and started talking about how the Civil War is way more interesting than the other stuff he'd been reading about. So that's good! I tried to find out why he thought it was interesting, but he couldn't really tell me. 

 

If I didn't think he needed at least a cultural literacy level of knowledge in history I wouldn't be so concerned that he at least finish the course. But I think to be a decent citizen he needs at least a passing familiarity. I've already dropped the project assignments, to his great relief. But Ithink he really needs at least a passing knowledge of the basics. 

 

Well, if all you're looking for is a passing familiarity, maybe watch the Ken Burns history series together?  I think many of them are on Netflix.  If he'd like that sort of thing it could be an easy way to get it done.

[TammyS]

Part of me wants to say, you like the Civil War? Fine, finish that section int eh book, watch the Ken Burns miniseries, and read a biography and a historical fiction book, and we'll call it done for the year. 

 

But it really wouldn't be fair to call 1/2 a course of Notgrass plus that a full credit of American History. I don't think. 

 

I think you totally could.  I really do.  And I'm considered by most people I know to be "rigorous".  I wouldn't call it the most rigorous history course ever, but I think it would be totally sufficient.  Honest.

[ktgrok]

Honestly, as someone with allergies, I can attest that going would have been pretty worthless. If his face is swollen and he's full of mucus despite allergy meds (which also sometimes make one feel fuzzy)--he likely wouldn't have been able to get anything out of it anyway. I doubt this one was "just excuses" though I know it can feel that way.

 

Oh, I agree. I have allergies too, although they've been better the last few years for no real reason. He got his sinuses from me :(

But, one can't stay home that much and do well. 

[Matryoshka]

So he came out for food and started talking about how the Civil War is way more interesting than the other stuff he'd been reading about. So that's good! I tried to find out why he thought it was interesting, but he couldn't really tell me. 

 

If I didn't think he needed at least a cultural literacy level of knowledge in history I wouldn't be so concerned that he at least finish the course. But I think to be a decent citizen he needs at least a passing familiarity. I've already dropped the project assignments, to his great relief. But Ithink he really needs at least a passing knowledge of the basics. 

 

History is one of the things I'm outsourcing to CC, ironically because she doesn't like it.  I think I've managed the cultural literacy part at home in elementary/middle - I read aloud, and we watched a ton of videos when her sisters were home - if we were doing it all together, there was much less opposition.  And there were no tests or papers when they were younger; it was mostly input.

 

But I don't think I could ever get her through a course at home that I could honestly put on a transcript as high-school level and have enough output if I had to ever back it up.  The course at the CC is actually quite minimal - from what I read on ratemyprofessor, he lectures, they take notes, and then they have T/F exams. Not much if any reading or papers. But no one will question a CC course credit.  So, box checked.  And hopefully she'll get enough from the lectures to make a halfway-decent grade on those T/F exams - fortunately, she is an auditory learner, so... fingers crossed.

[katilac]

So true!!!

 

Some kids, you can warn them of the consequence, and they learn from your advice/teaching. 

 

Other kids have to learn the hard way, every time. 

 

And other kids take the hard way, face the consequences, and still don't learn, at least not until they either mature or face the same consequences over and over.

 

My son is in that last category. 

 

Our family saying is, "That kid has to stick their hand in the flames before they believe that fire is hot." 

 

I understand the need/desire to avoid ugly confrontations, but I have to wonder how he is going to be ready to do DE next year if this is how he is. 

 

 

And one of my personal sayings is, "My sanity has got to count for something." 

 

Even if I couldn't be sure my kid would succeed in DE, I might have to send him if so many other things had failed. His education is important, but mom's sanity has to count for something too. 

[ktgrok]

Our family saying is, "That kid has to stick their hand in the flames before they believe that fire is hot." 

 

 

And one of my personal sayings is, "My sanity has got to count for something." 

 

Even if I couldn't be sure my kid would succeed in DE, I might have to send him if so many other things had failed. His education is important, but mom's sanity has to count for something too. 

 

So so so true. And honestly, if it wasn't effecting the other kids I could maybe deal. But I can't let him create an environment where I'm worried about my littles being serious damaged in some way. 

[mamiof5]

Hope day ended well, and today is a good day!

[ktgrok]

So, I gave him the option of just focusing on the Civil War, but instead what we have decided to do, or what he has decided with me offering options, is to work through the rest of the history material. He'll read, but not answer the end of lesson questions anymore, Instead, he'll just do the end of unit (five lessons in a unit) quiz, open book. And do the larger quarterly tests, also open book. He fells he will learn a lot doing that, but it will be streamlined and doable. And I feel mostly okay about assigning credit based on that. At least I know he's covered the material. Same with the English section. He'll read the books, answer the quiz and test questions about the books (short essay questions as well as some multiple choice) and one test is actually a short compare/contrast paper. That plus the readin in the source document book will have to count as English. 

 

Biology, same thing, probably. But if we can't finish over the summer we'll just keep working on it as we go.