nevermind

[MrsMe]

.

 

Edited April 8, 2016 by MrsMe

[EKS]

If you need a good physical science text, you could try CPO or Conceptual Physical Science Explorations.

 

Also, I'd sit with her for anything she is having difficulty with.  I'd present the information to her, discuss it, have her do example problems if appropriate, and until she understands how to find answers to questions in the text, I'd guide her though that too.  I would not have her read the text on her own and I wouldn't have her watch a DVD (unless you're there watching with her and pausing it every so often to discuss).

[8filltheheart]

I suspect something else is going on and it is not as simple as not having had tests or questions before. Lots of kids, mine included, can shift from no tests to tests without any struggle. Since she seems to struggle in math as well, there could be some LDs going on.

 

Does she know how to take notes? Does she know how to pick key information from extraneous info? Can she outline a text that she has read with the main points?

 

In terms of some options for overview, you could try Plato's middle school courses for physical and life sciences. You can purchase them through homeschoolbuyers coop.

[MrsMe]

I suspect something else is going on and it is not as simple as not having had tests or questions before. Lots of kids, mine included, can shift from no tests to tests without any struggle. Since she seems to struggle in math as well, there could be some LDs going on.

 

Does she know how to take notes? Does she know how to pick key information from extraneous info? Can she outline a text that she has read with the main points?

 

In terms of some options for overview, you could try Plato's middle school courses for physical and life sciences. You can purchase them through homeschoolbuyers coop.

Yes, actually she outlinines easily and pulls key info easily. Thats come easy to her just not in science. I thought she'd just get it too (from cm method) but doesn't. She lacks focus w/science to grasp it. Needs to be to the point and short like MUS. I can get her through that different type of method, just not sure the direction to take. Edited April 8, 2016 by MrsMe

[Janeway]

I suspect something else is going on and it is not as simple as not having had tests or questions before. Lots of kids, mine included, can shift from no tests to tests without any struggle. Since she seems to struggle in math as well, there could be some LDs going on.

 

Does she know how to take notes? Does she know how to pick key information from extraneous info? Can she outline a text that she has read with the main points?

 

In terms of some options for overview, you could try Plato's middle school courses for physical and life sciences. You can purchase them through homeschoolbuyers coop.

I am going to agree with this one. Is it a refusal to do the work? Is she completely uninterested? Are there learning disabilities? 

[jeninok]

What about something like Pandia Press Biology level 2. It is solid science, not overwhelming, and very clearly written.

[Corraleno]

If you think the best your DD can do in math is to complete MUS Algebra 1 by 12th grade, that seems like pretty clear evidence of a learning disability. That goes way beyond just "not being good at math." I would strongly urge you to have her tested for LDs before deciding that she'll just never be college material. She may have dyscalculia or an issue with working memory or processing speed; these could also be part of her struggles with science.

 

As for grammar, I think that EG Plus and the EG Ultimate series cover the same material, just organized in different ways. If she's finished EG Plus, I'm not sure why you're looking for another grammar program for high school unless she really didn't retain much from EG. If you really want something comprehensive, you could look at a text like Warriner's English Composition and Grammar. But if her English credit includes literature and composition, and her writing is fine, I wouldn't really worry about a grammar curriculum.

[mysticmomma]

Another vote for an evaluation

[Deee]

I'll second the recommendation for Conceptual Physical Science Explorations. You could also use the Integrated Sciences version. DS15 and I are using the college level text (Conceptual Integrated Sciences) at the moment (he's a STEM type and needs high level science). DS does not tolerate anything that isn't straight to the point. CIS is very well set up, presents info in short, clear bites, is easy to take notes from, and has loads of questions to work through at the end of each chapter. The physics videos on the website are excellent, too. I think its one of my best-ever homeschool purchases.

 

For the record, as a research scientist, I don't think its possible to be awful at science. You can be disinterested, you can have insufficient maths skills to do physics and chemistry calculations, you can need better, different or more visual explanations, and you can have poorly developed critical thinking skills and understanding of the scientific method, but you can't be awful - science is a series of skills building on knowledge. She's in year 9. She isn't old enough to be awful at anything, especially not science. And she has loads of time to mature, work out her learning style and cover the required material.

 

If she's worked her way through one grammar program, move on to application. If she wants to be a writer, she needs to write. Any grammar holes can be plugged in the editing process.

D

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: 

 

You are not alone and I doubt that your teaching choices have crippled your child.  There is still time to help but you need answers for what is really going on.  Agree with others, there may very well be underlying learning challenges that can be remediated.  Get an evaluation through a neuropsychologist.  She is only in 9th grade.  Doing it now, while she is still at the beginning of her High School years could be a HUGE help to both of you and might open up possibilities that were never there before.  

 

You can request them through the local school system and those would be free but schools frequently do not have the training or the viewpoint you need.  They may blame homeschooling and not look much deeper.  They may take months to actually get through the process of starting evaluations.  They may not give you the details you need or have the knowledge and expertise to run the right tests.  I would personally go with a private neuropsychologist if you can possible do so.   Don't blame your choices in homeschooling.  Emphasize to them the specific areas she is struggling.

 

Evaluations are not for labeling children.  Evaluations are for getting the big picture, both strengths and weaknesses, and finding out what to do to capitalize on the strengths while either remediating, working around, or plowing through those weaknesses.  There are about a zillion things that may be tripping up your daughter.  As a layman it is exceedingly difficult to understand and tweak out all the potential causes of her current difficulties and her strengths may be severely hindered by those underlying issues.  Finding out what is really happening could be life changing.

 

You might read "The Mislabeled Child" by Brock and Fernette Eide.

 

(FWIW, nearly everyone I have seen post on the Learning Challenges board, including me, has said the same thing.  They wished they had gotten evaluations sooner.  They wished they had had solid answers sooner.  They are glad they now know what is happening and can find far more effective ways to remediate and accommodate and work through.)

[MysteryJen]

I also vote for an evaluation. We just had dd2 evaluated before she heads to ps high school (her choice...). I knew there was dyslexia going on, but her problems with working memory and processing speed turned out to be her biggest challenges.

 

She is determined to go to college and be successful there and I see no reason why not. Do not write off college until you have more answers.

[MrsMe]

I am going to agree with this one. Is it a refusal to do the work? Is she completely uninterested? Are there learning disabilities? 

I think she's completely uninterested in science.  She shows no learning disabilities at all anywhere.  Since beginning MUS she's done quite well in Math - averaging about a B+.  She is behind, but I'm good with that she's doing well and should make it through Algebra and even Geometry by 12th. 

 

In LA, Lit and History, she shows no disability.  She can outline and pull out the information by key word, summary, one-sentence summaries and nail them.  She's a strong reader and loves being challenged in those areas. 

 

Science is just different.  I think Apologia, after doing CM-ish science is just "different".  In all other subjects she learned better by reading it herself, but science I found she can not do that.  So she's a whole different learning style with it.  So she needs to work with the subject more, than she did with other subjects, perhaps more labeling-like, more instruction.  That's my guess. Apologia is too technical for her and I think the Master Books, after having my DH look at it last night, it is indeed "odd", at least this particular book.  So I'm finding the textbook approach is harder for her to grasp with a subject that requires more from her.  But we don't need technical nor "odd".  And then the fact that it just doesn't interest her.  We did the "Weather" book and she enjoyed that, but didn't do real well.  About a C-.  So I notice an issue with being able to find answers. (She can understand them  and find them in other subjects though, although she lacks being "thorough").  It's just frustrating, because she does so well every where else. 

 

I thought she had issues in Math, but it turned out, she needed straight forward, short and quiet lessons (I put her in the back room and it made a huge difference!).  Now she's doing well.  I think focus in a subject she dislikes is HUGE as well. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by MrsMe

[MrsMe]

I also vote for an evaluation. We just had dd2 evaluated before she heads to ps high school (her choice...). I knew there was dyslexia going on, but her problems with working memory and processing speed turned out to be her biggest challenges.

 

She is determined to go to college and be successful there and I see no reason why not. Do not write off college until you have more answers.

 

We talk about college.  We're not burning our bridges. LOL. 

[MrsMe]

.

 

Edited April 8, 2016 by MrsMe

[The Governess]

Learning disability or not, it sounds like your dd has not learned how to effectively learn from a textbook. I love the CM approach and the idea of living books, but at some point children need to be able to read non-fiction that is not written in a "story" format, but rather more technically. Some will pick this skill up naturally, and others will need more explicit instruction.

 

It sounds like your Dd thrives with fiction and has good comprehension in that genre. However, I would not be looking to switch to more CM-type sources for subjects like science because they are easier for her. You have uncovered a skill deficit that needs to be remediated. And for a science book, Apologia Physical is not very technical. It is a very conversational, easy-to-read text. You are right to be concerned that she is struggling. She is going to need to be able to read and work with informational texts throughout her adult life, no matter what field she goes into.

 

I would start working very closely with her on her non-fiction reading skills. Maybe you need to break up her assignments into smaller sections. Have her read a paragraph or two to you, ask her a question, and see if she can find the answer. If not, why? Did she not understand the question? Did she miss something in the reading? Can she read a paragraph, make up her own question about what she read, and answer it? This is a skill that she needs to practice, and I think it's going to take you sitting with her and breaking it down with her to figure out what's going on.

 

You may want to look into some resources that teach "close reading." I know I have seen discussions on this site with links to workbooks, etc. Here is an example: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0439694981/ref=pd_aw_sim_14_of_12?ie=UTF8&dpID=512CFxchApL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_SL500_SR200%2C200_&refRID=0KRG0VAJZAX88D7W2QR5There are many other similar resources and someone else here probably has better recommendations!

 

If she is not showing improvement in this area after explicit instruction, I would definitely look into an evaluation.

 

As for math, I encourage you not to think of algebra as "useless." Many people who are not in math and science fields use algebra and geometry skills regularly. My 11yo Dd recently used a geometry formula to figure out the circumference of a handmade ballet skirt! I consider algebra and geometry to be very useful subjects. Perhaps finding examples of how the skills she is learning in math, science, and other subjects that are not very interesting to her will be useful (or required) in her adult life will help motivate her to master them.

 

I would also encourage you to be open to the advice and concerns of other experienced posters here. Of course you know your child best, but there is a lot of wisdom shared on these boards, and I have grown as a teacher and parent by allowing myself to carefully consider their advice, even when it wasn't what I was hoping or expecting to hear.

 

Best wishes to you and your daughter!

[prairiewindmomma]

A few thoughts....

 

1. How does she do reading denser texts with unfamiliar vocabulary? Entering high school generally requires a deepening of literacy skills.  She needs to learn to navigate texts with more complex sentence structures and with a greater variety of words.  Something like How to Read a Book by Mortimer Adler or any other resource that will teach her close reading, of primary source material, with the ability to take accurate notes.  I strongly suspect that part of her struggle with science is reading and understanding the textbook.  This is a skill, and it just needs to be developed.

 

2. The fact that she does well with MUS makes me think that: 1. video instruction is an easier medium for her, 2. pages with lots of clear white space and a limited problem set help her and 3. this is further evidence that there is something going on here.  Stay with MUS for math.  Knowing what works well for her, pull some of those resources over into other areas of her schooling and STILL STRETCH HER into developing new skills.

 

3. Having my ds move into high school work has shown me some of my own weaknesses.  At times, that has made me defensive "If I've done ok, then my child will do ok too" when in fact, kid needs some reinforcement....and so do I. What you write above does make me think that evaluations are in order.  You can pinpoint specific areas where she is struggling, and they are over a variety of skills. I am in the camp of those who put off evaluations for years, and I really wish that I hadn't.  I did not understand the breadth or depth of what was going on in my child, and I thought we were just limited to a few minor issues.  

[birchbark]

Drop grammar. You've done plenty. Focus on math and science.

 

What I am finding is that using a CM program for so long that never utilized tests, or questions, put us at a huge disadvantage.  Talk about an unbalanced learning method!  Maybe someone can help or shed light on this? 

 

We used the same educational method/program as you, and did not have a problem transitioning to traditional texts and questions. I tend to think the same as pp's, that there is something else going on. I am the last one to jump to LD dx, but maybe it would be something to research. The other thought is you may just be dealing with lack of motivation, and you need to find some ways to increase that.

 

Other than biology, your DD will not be able to do most high school level science until her math is up to snuff. So let go of that pressure, and meet her where she's at. Work on math. Like I mentioned, biology is a science option that does not require math. We have actually enjoyed ACE's biology with the DVDs.  :eek:  Another idea is Wes Olson's videos. He has additional activities/course questions on his site to flesh them out a little. Another new kid on the block for science is Novare; they have some middle/early-high-school-level offerings that may be what you need. I think their books would be excellent for CM-ers, as they contain all kinds of interconnected info, mini-biographies and such, while still being rigorous. You could also look at Guesthollow. They have biology and chemistry w/o the math. ETA: In light of some other excellent posts here, I don't think I'd recommend Guesthollow at this point. See my next post.

 

It sounds like you are happy with your math, but if you'd like another recommendation, we have loved Systematic Mathematics. It is video-based, with a worksheet that you print out. The instruction is very incremental, and it covers grades 6-9 (through Alg 2). 

 

Keep plugging away with math! Through summer if you can. You'll get there! You haven't blown it yet.

 

:grouphug:

Edited April 8, 2016 by birchbark

[birchbark]

MrsMe, this thread by Lewelma on developing advanced reading skills may really help you in your science quandary.

[MrsMe]

A few thoughts....

 

1. How does she do reading denser texts with unfamiliar vocabulary? Entering high school generally requires a deepening of literacy skills.  She needs to learn to navigate texts with more complex sentence structures and with a greater variety of words.  Something like How to Read a Book by Mortimer Adler or any other resource that will teach her close reading, of primary source material, with the ability to take accurate notes.  I strongly suspect that part of her struggle with science is reading and understanding the textbook.  This is a skill, and it just needs to be developed.

 

2. The fact that she does well with MUS makes me think that: 1. video instruction is an easier medium for her, 2. pages with lots of clear white space and a limited problem set help her and 3. this is further evidence that there is something going on here.  Stay with MUS for math.  Knowing what works well for her, pull some of those resources over into other areas of her schooling and STILL STRETCH HER into developing new skills.

 

3. Having my ds move into high school work has shown me some of my own weaknesses.  At times, that has made me defensive "If I've done ok, then my child will do ok too" when in fact, kid needs some reinforcement....and so do I. What you write above does make me think that evaluations are in order.  You can pinpoint specific areas where she is struggling, and they are over a variety of skills. I am in the camp of those who put off evaluations for years, and I really wish that I hadn't.  I did not understand the breadth or depth of what was going on in my child, and I thought we were just limited to a few minor issues.  

Very well, actually.  All the books other kids  had problems with, she's had none, in fact has done better and enjoyed them more.  She has a good vocab. 

 

I would agree that it's about "textbook" method itself and I find that the lack of that type of read and terms/and factual type read with a subject she doesn't like is difficult, so this subject lends itself to a different learning language that is needed.  So for #1, I would say absolutely that is her struggle.

 

Yes, to clear white space!!! She HATED BJU and color for math!  She actually hates books with pictures, because "it ruins the story in my mind" (her words). 

 

I think that lack of textbook is really that lack of balance. I think we just compartmentalized that learning type.  It's like the child who can't narrate in high school because they've done only textbook method.  Definitely a learning curve.  And in hindsight, my guess is I didn't expect enough of her.  Using what we did was such overkill, that we tweaked a lot. 

 

But due to this, I'm just not sure whether to go with learning basics WELL in science or keep plugging along and learning this way as we go.  It's quite frustrating.    Thanks, great post.

[JanetC]

As for the math, I honestly don't find that to be a learning disability, but just not her bent.  I could never have done 4 years of math back in the day. 

 

I often say that the best place to look for learning disabilities is in the family tree.

 

You say that you couldn't have done math "back in the day" -- as well as some of your other comments in earlier posts -- leads me to think that she seems "normal, just doesn't have a bent for math and science" to you because you, also, have an undiagnosed learning disability. They just didn't diagnose or try to understand in detail why kids struggled "back in the day."

 

So, this is yet another vote to do an ed-psych evaluation. Understanding her strengths and weaknesses in detail is the best way to use her strengths to help her overcome her weaknesses. If it turns out she's just like you, you may not be the best tutor for her: You want someone whose strengths match with her weaknesses. If you both have a weakness in math, that's not ideal.

[MrsMe]

.

 

Edited April 8, 2016 by MrsMe

[MrsMe]

Thank you ladies for your input.  I wasn't a math or science kid either, although I did do well in Biology in high school because of interest. I think it's definitely a learning method we'll have to work on and give it more time.

[MrsMe]

MrsMe, this thread by Lewelma on developing advanced reading skills may really help you in your science quandary.

 

 

OMGOSH!  Bingo!  This is perfect!!!  Thank you!!!!

[Arcadia]

Middle and high school public school science textbooks tend to be cluttered with looks of photographs.

 

You could use a study guide for science as a spine because those tend to be less wordy and diagrams are black and white. Then supplement with any text/curriculum.

 

You say that you couldn't have done math "back in the day" -- as well as some of your other comments in earlier posts -- leads me to think that she seems "normal, just doesn't have a bent for math and science" to you because you, also, have an undiagnosed learning disability.

Or the OP is just not interested in math and science so there was no emphasis on it throughout the years and her child treats those as unimportant as well.

[prairiewindmomma]

Have you looked at Apologia Biology WITH the accompanying dvd and journal?  If she needs some support learning out of a textbook, the journal is decent at building study skills and the video can help spark interest and comprehension.  I have gone through the journal, and I can pop on the dvds and watch them this weekend if you want another review.  It was an investment for us to buy those--my upcoming 9th grader has attention issues and needs to build study skills. My kid after him has significant learning issues, I bought this with him in mind in the thought I could pass stuff down.

[8filltheheart]

Actually, learning from a textbook should be easier bc textbooks present information in a much more structured and direct way.

 

Your posts are confusing. How much output was required of her before now in subjects she did not like? What was her required written output in general before now? When did her struggles in math begin?

[Corraleno]

As for the math, I honestly don't find that to be a learning disability, but just not her bent.  I could never have done 4 years of math back in the day.  The thought that everyone should be able to do 4 years of math from Algebra to Algebra II, Geometry, and whatever comes after (lol) isn't a disability but a bent and un-useful to me for someone is stronger in literature.   I think ps's try to make everyone to be great across the board and it's unnatural to me, so I'd have to disagree there.  No disrespect meant.

 

With all due respect, it seems that you're letting your personal feelings about the "uselessness" of math prevent you from getting your DD the help she needs. There is a difference between math not being someone's "bent," and a student whose cognitive issues prevent her from learning the most basic mathematical concepts that are required for high school graduation in pretty much every country in the world.

 

A student who is struggling to get through the lightest algebra program there is, which doesn't even cover all of Algebra 1, by the end of 12th grade is not someone who is "just not into math." There is something going on there that is interfering with her ability to learn math. Your decision to not even pursue an evaluation, since you've already "diagnosed" her as someone who just happens to be bad at math for no apparent reason, may significantly limit her future life choices. Please listen to the experienced parents in this thread who are telling you that it is VERY likely there are LDs involved in your daughter's struggles, whether you recognize them or not. Please don't limit her future options so drastically without at least pursuing an evaluation. 

[MrsMe]

With all due respect, it seems that you're letting your personal feelings about the "uselessness" of math prevent you from getting your DD the help she needs. There is a difference between math not being someone's "bent," and a student whose cognitive issues prevent her from learning the most basic mathematical concepts that are required for high school graduation in pretty much every country in the world.

 

A student who is struggling to get through the lightest algebra program there is, which doesn't even cover all of Algebra 1, by the end of 12th grade is not someone who is "just not into math." There is something going on there that is interfering with her ability to learn math. Your decision to not even pursue an evaluation, since you've already "diagnosed" her as someone who just happens to be bad at math for no apparent reason, may significantly limit her future life choices. Please listen to the experienced parents in this thread who are telling you that it is VERY likely there are LDs involved in your daughter's struggles, whether you recognize them or not. Please don't limit her future options so drastically without at least pursuing an evaluation. 

She's not struggling in math since we switched to MUS.  She's getting a B+.  I just didn't choose to double up on math to get her to grade level, since doubling up doesn't work with her.   I tend to lump the math/science into one.  She's definitely not an "engineering" student. LOL.  

Edited April 8, 2016 by MrsMe

[MrsMe]

Actually, learning from a textbook should be easier bc textbooks present information in a much more structured and direct way.

 

Your posts are confusing. How much output was required of her before now in subjects she did not like? What was her required written output in general before now? When did her struggles in math begin?

Now I disagree.  Even I do better with less "facts" and highlighted vocab, than I do with more of a story type method.   

 

As far as output, a LOT of written output, daily, in several subjects, but I think "science" was dumbed down in that particular curriculum and I had switched this year to a textbook type since I thought she should know how to do textbook.  I just didn't realize it would be the learning curve it has been. 

 

Her math struggles began years ago, but she hasn't struggled since changing to MUS 3 years ago.  She does well with this particular curriculum, but IMO would bomb with something like BJU Math. 

[MrsMe]

Have you looked at Apologia Biology WITH the accompanying dvd and journal?  If she needs some support learning out of a textbook, the journal is decent at building study skills and the video can help spark interest and comprehension.  I have gone through the journal, and I can pop on the dvds and watch them this weekend if you want another review.  It was an investment for us to buy those--my upcoming 9th grader has attention issues and needs to build study skills. My kid after him has significant learning issues, I bought this with him in mind in the thought I could pass stuff down.

 

I was afraid to spend more money on Apologia -  on a DVD that had poor reviews!!  I couldn't find any good reviews on the Physical DVD and the sample was scary awful!  Now I haven't seen the Biology one, but was looking this year at Physical.  The journal is good.  I think Apologia reads well, but it's just too much, too fast and switching to textbook, and taking all that into consideration, it just bombed!  So the Apologia Bio DVD is good?

[MrsMe]

With all due respect, it seems that you're letting your personal feelings about the "uselessness" of math prevent you from getting your DD the help she needs. There is a difference between math not being someone's "bent," and a student whose cognitive issues prevent her from learning the most basic mathematical concepts that are required for high school graduation in pretty much every country in the world.

 

A student who is struggling to get through the lightest algebra program there is, which doesn't even cover all of Algebra 1, by the end of 12th grade is not someone who is "just not into math." There is something going on there that is interfering with her ability to learn math. Your decision to not even pursue an evaluation, since you've already "diagnosed" her as someone who just happens to be bad at math for no apparent reason, may significantly limit her future life choices. Please listen to the experienced parents in this thread who are telling you that it is VERY likely there are LDs involved in your daughter's struggles, whether you recognize them or not. Please don't limit her future options so drastically without at least pursuing an evaluation. 

I don't find math useless at all.  I don't find 4 years of math the best use of time,  when time can be better spent elsewhere for a LIterature/writing bent.  Cognitive issues are in the back of my mind, but I'm not seeing a problem across the board with it, except more issue by the change in methods. 

 

She's not struggling in math since hitting MUS.  I think you're misreading since we have no current math issues and I said that on our current track, she'd complete Algebra II by 12th.    So this wasn't about math in the least, more that she's definitely not on an engineering track, but more if there's a lack of learning methods/balance issue. 

 

I think you're misreading what I'm saying, confusing as it may be.

[almondbutterandjelly]

Mrs. Me,

 

Gently, you mentioned a couple times that your dd wasn't college bound.  I just wanted to mention that kids change a lot from 9th grade to 12th grade, and she may become college bound.  It might be wise not to close any doors, academically, in case she actually decides to go to college.  I do think if she ends up, say, at community college, she can continue to work on math at whatever her level ends up being.  Obviously stick with MUS if it's working.  Without doubling up, she may still get to advanced levels of MUS in high school  (By the way, I like MUS a lot, and my degree is in math.  I think it's a "magic bullet" for some kids like my own daughter).  (Is she a big picture thinker, a whole-to-parts learner?  Arithmetic was a BEAR.)

 

And, yes, she will need to work on learning from textbooks in some subjects, so you should work on that to figure out what works for her.  But you have 4 years.  You haven't blown it.

 

Best wishes!

[OneStepAtATime]

MUS frequently helps kids with learning challenges in math so she may very well have an LD in math and MUS is helping.  I agree that doubling up for a student that historically struggled in math is probably a really bad idea.  

 

As for science, have you considered outsourcing to a tutor that really loves science and is good at working with kids that struggle or have limited interest in this subject?  

[MrsMe]

 I've gotten what I needed from my post, but it seems to be taking a turn with some comments that are less than pleasing, so I will be done here.  Thank you. 

[Corraleno]

You said in your OP that your DD is actually incapable of going to college because she is "so awful" in math and science, but now you're saying she really doesn't struggle at all, and the only issue is that you need to find a very very basic science text, with DVDs, that doesn't move too fast or include too much technical information, similar to the extremely light math program you are using 2 yrs behind grade level. 

 

IOW, you are creating a HS program for your DD that is identical to what a PS student with severe LDs and an IEP would get, while insisting that this is a perfectly normal high school program because math and science aren't important for students who prefer literature and writing.

 

So that's kind of confusing.

[goldberry]

MrsMe, this thread by Lewelma on developing advanced reading skills may really help you in your science quandary.

 

What a great post!  My science/mathy DD has had huge trouble with this.  She now does the Quizlet thing and it helps her tremendously.  Her weakest area is critical reading.

[texasmama]

I suspect something else is going on and it is not as simple as not having had tests or questions before. Lots of kids, mine included, can shift from no tests to tests without any struggle. Since she seems to struggle in math as well, there could be some LDs going on.

 

Does she know how to take notes? Does she know how to pick key information from extraneous info? Can she outline a text that she has read with the main points?

 

In terms of some options for overview, you could try Plato's middle school courses for physical and life sciences. You can purchase them through homeschoolbuyers coop.

The bolded was my first thought at reading your OP.

[OneStepAtATime]

 I've gotten what I needed from my post, but it seems to be taking a turn with some comments that are less than pleasing, so I will be done here.  Thank you. 

Sorry you are feeling attacked or at least not supported.  I don't think anyone is trying to make this thread a negative.  We all want to help.  I hope you are o.k.

[8filltheheart]

 

 

Now she won't go to college (obviously).  She's AWFUL in math and science, although she is doing well in MUS Math, albiet 2 years behind.   Frankly, I find Algebra useless unless she's going into such a field, but be that as it may, she should complete it in 11th or 12th.  

 

 

 

I think she's completely uninterested in science.  She shows no learning disabilities at all anywhere.  Since beginning MUS she's done quite well in Math - averaging about a B+.  She is behind, but I'm good with that she's doing well and should make it through Algebra and even Geometry by 12th. 

 

 

 

She's not struggling in math since hitting MUS.  I think you're misreading since we have no current math issues and I said that on our current track, she'd complete Algebra II by 12th.    

 

Your posts are inconsistent and very confusing.  Your first post states perhaps finish alg by 11th or 12th. Then you said geo.  And now you are saying alg 2.  You started off saying she is 2 yrs behind, but 9th grade for alg is not behind, it is on par for avg.

 

You say she is not college bound, "obviously," but then you say you think that the only issue with math is that it is hindering   'time can be better spent elsewhere for a LIterature/writing bent."  

 

Your dd is facing having to take both math and science at college if she attends, even if she wants to major in literature and or writing.  My 11th grader wants to major in French and Russian with a possible focus on literature and every college she has looked at requires at minimum 2 yrs of science, some require 3 semesters.  All require math beyond alg 2.  

 

I'm not sure anyone can really offer and solid advice b/c the information is so confusing.

 

ETA: FWIW, I don't think anyone is attacking you.  I think posters are confused and want to be able to help your dd.  This really is about your dd, first and foremost.  Not feelings, but how can you help her be the best her she is capable of being.

Edited April 8, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[MrsMe]

You said in your OP that your DD is actually incapable of going to college because she is "so awful" in math and science, but now you're saying she really doesn't struggle at all, and the only issue is that you need to find a very very basic science text, with DVDs, that doesn't move too fast or include too much technical information, similar to the extremely light math program you are using 2 yrs behind grade level. 

 

IOW, you are creating a HS program for your DD that is identical to what a PS student with severe LDs and an IEP would get, while insisting that this is a perfectly normal high school program because math and science aren't important for students who prefer literature and writing.

 

So that's kind of confusing.

I agree what I said could be confusing, but the answers to questions along the way, it wouldn't be.  I actually don't ever remember saying she's "incapable of going to college".  I did say she's awful in both math (yep, till MUS) and science (currently).  But the rest of the info down the thread seems to have gone out the window.

 

I'm not "creating any HS program".  I'm asking where to go with a basics in science or regular tract and whether to go further than what EG gave us. 

 

I'm sorry I was confusing. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by MrsMe

[Corraleno]

I don't find math useless at all.  I don't find 4 years of math the best use of time,  when time can be better spent elsewhere for a LIterature/writing bent.  Cognitive issues are in the back of my mind, but I'm not seeing a problem across the board with it, except more issue by the change in methods. 

 

She's not struggling in math since hitting MUS.  I think you're misreading since we have no current math issues and I said that on our current track, she'd complete Algebra II by 12th.    So this wasn't about math in the least, more that she's definitely not on an engineering track, but more if there's a lack of learning methods/balance issue. 

 

I think you're misreading what I'm saying, confusing as it may be.

 

In your OP, now deleted, you said she would finish Algebra 1 by 11th or 12th grade, and that you didn't believe 4 years of math was necessary. Then later you said she might make it through Geometry in 12th, and now you're claiming that you said she would complete Alg2 in 12th — despite only being in Zeta in 9th, and having stated that doubling up doesn't work for her. 

 

The fact that you are not seeing "cognitive issues across the board" does not mean they don't exist. My son has an alphabet soup of LDs, some of which we wouldn't have known about without an evaluation. And he has gifts in areas where he also has LDs — e.g. very dyslexic, problems with verbal processing speed and working memory, yet highly gifted with languages. Knowing what the LDs are, and how to accommodate them while using his strengths to compensate for weaknesses, has been a big part of his success.

 

I really cannot fathom why someone whose child is significantly behind in school, to the extent that the parent assumes this student will never be able to go to college, would so adamantly resist the suggestion of getting an evaluation. The worst that could happen would be that you'd spend a few hundred dollars to confirm your belief that she has no LDs at all, and the best outcome would be that the tests reveal areas where she needs extra help, allowing you to target those areas in a way that will significantly increase her academic performance and/or qualify her for the types of support and accommodations that will make her successful in college. Why would you not want to do that?  :confused:

 

I agree what I said could be confusing, but the answers to questions along the way, it wouldn't be.  I actually don't ever remember saying she's "incapable of going to college".  I did say she's awful in both math (yep, till MUS) and science (currently).  But the rest of the info down the thread seems to have gone out the window.

 

I'm not "creating any HS program".  I'm asking where to go with a basics in science or regular tract and whether to go further than what EG gave us. 

 

I'm sorry I was confusing. 

 

Unless you are enrolling her in a public or private HS next year, you certainly are "creating a HS program" — you are developing the plan that will determine the next three years of her education, including choosing/designing the courses, course sequence, curriculum, methods of output and assessment, and the type of transcript and diploma your DD will receive when she graduates from your homeschool. You need a plan, and in order to be effective in creating that plan, you need a realistic assessment of your daughter's strengths, weakness, and capabilities. Flying by the seat of your pants, constantly switching curricula, with no real end goal other than "hopefully she'll graduate with a bit of algebra and some very basic science knowledge even if it means she's not prepared for college" is not serving your DD's needs well, IMO.

[JanetC]

There is no prerequisite that a student have "serious problems across the board" before it is worth your time to test.

 

If she's not going to college, this is the last of her education. She is struggling with reading comprehension except in literature and in math. How is she going to read the contract when she signs an apartment lease and understand the math behind her credit card or a loan someday?

 

If she is going to college (and there are some great 1 and 2 year options in the community colleges) then having a diagnosed learning disability can help her get accommodations to be successful.

[MrsMe]

In your OP, now deleted, you said she would finish Algebra 1 by 11th or 12th grade, and that you didn't believe 4 years of math was necessary. Then later you said she might make it through Geometry in 12th, and now you're claiming that you said she would complete Alg2 in 12th — despite only being in Zeta in 9th, and having stated that doubling up doesn't work for her. 

 

The fact that you are not seeing "cognitive issues across the board" does not mean they don't exist. My son has an alphabet soup of LDs, some of which we wouldn't have known about without an evaluation. And he has gifts in areas where he also has LDs — e.g. very dyslexic, problems with verbal processing speed and working memory, yet highly gifted with languages. Knowing what the LDs are, and how to accommodate them while using his strengths to compensate for weaknesses, has been a big part of his success.

 

I really cannot fathom why someone whose child is significantly behind in school, to the extent that the parent assumes this student will never be able to go to college, would so adamantly resist the suggestion of getting an evaluation. The worst that could happen would be that you'd spend a few hundred dollars to confirm your belief that she has no LDs at all, and the best outcome would be that the tests reveal areas where she needs extra help, allowing you to target those areas in a way that will significantly increase her academic performance and/or qualify her for the types of support and accommodations that will make her successful in college. Why would you not want to do that?  :confused:

 

 

Unless you are enrolling her in a public or private HS next year, you certainly are "creating a HS program" — you are developing the plan that will determine the next three years of her education, including choosing/designing the courses, course sequence, curriculum, methods of output and assessment, and the type of transcript and diploma your DD will receive when she graduates from your homeschool. You need a plan, and in order to be effective in creating that plan, you need a realistic assessment of your daughter's strengths, weakness, and capabilities. Flying by the seat of your pants, constantly switching curricula, with no real end goal other than "hopefully she'll graduate with a bit of algebra and some very basic science knowledge even if it means she's not prepared for college" is not serving your DD's needs well, IMO.

You're right. I've completely ruled out cognitive issues,  I'm flying by the seat of my pants, I told my dd she was incapable, I've not targeted any of  those areas, nor by not doubling her up (because someone else's herd mentality of all subjects being in the perfect grade levels haunt me so) in math and (sorry, missing where the science isn't being targeted),and am constantly switching curricula.   I'm a horrible mom and teacher, oh yes and "significantly" behind (because we're all supposed to birth perfect math students). You're right. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.  Solved! 

 

 There's a reason I don't come here often.  Thanks for reiterating the fact.       

[Corraleno]

You're right. I've completely ruled out cognitive issues,  I'm flying by the seat of my pants, I told my dd she was incapable, I've not targeted any of  those areas, nor by not doubling her up (because someone else's herd mentality of all subjects being in the perfect grade levels haunt me so) in math and (sorry, missing where the science isn't being targeted),and am constantly switching curricula.   I'm a horrible mom and teacher, oh yes and "significantly" behind (because we're all supposed to birth perfect math students). You're right. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.  Solved! 

 

 There's a reason I don't come here often.  Thanks for reiterating the fact.       

 

You are the one who wrote that your daughter "OBVIOUSLY would not be going to college."

 

You are the one who said that you don't believe she has any LDs, and have dismissed every suggestion about evaluations.

 

You started this thread saying that you have "bombed" 9th grade and asking for help in how to get back on track.

 

NO ONE has said that you are a horrible mom or teacher.

 

 

Are you arguing that a high school student who is doing an extremely lightweight middle school math program for 9th and 10th grade is not significantly behind? That this is perfectly normal for all but those who are "born perfect math students"? Because that's a pretty extreme level of denial. 

 

People on this thread have taken the time to try to HELP your daughter. The fact that you don't like the answers you're hearing doesn't mean that people are being mean or that they deserve such a defensive snarky response. Maybe you should think about what freaks you out so much about the possibility that your daughter may — just like hundreds of other homeschooled kids whose parents are on this board, including some who are extremely gifted — have some type of learning disability. 

[8filltheheart]

You're right. I've completely ruled out cognitive issues, I'm flying by the seat of my pants, I told my dd she was incapable, I've not targeted any of those areas, nor by not doubling her up (because someone else's herd mentality of all subjects being in the perfect grade levels haunt me so) in math and (sorry, missing where the science isn't being targeted),and am constantly switching curricula. I'm a horrible mom and teacher, oh yes and "significantly" behind (because we're all supposed to birth perfect math students). You're right. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Solved!

 

There's a reason I don't come here often. Thanks for reiterating the fact.

I am not sure why your responses are so defensive. This is not about you, your parenting, or your teaching.

 

Your dd is behind and struggling and is in 9th grade. That sets off the alarm bells in those of us with kids with LDs (which most of us responding do have experience with.) I have had the exact opposite experience with a child....breezing through alg at age 10 but still struggling with 4th grade reading and could barely spell like a first grader.

 

Today he is a successful college student, but it took focused and constant remediation throughout elementary and middle school. Otherwise, no, he couldn't have gone to college and have succeeded.

Edited April 8, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart