So if you watched the debate, who do you think won?

[Melissa in FL]

Hey folks, this is a good time to remind everyone that FactCheck.org has its analysis on the debate posted. Before misstatements or claims become "facts" in anyone's mind, it is always good to check this website.

 

Jane

 

Thanks for posting the link. I was curious about these after the debate.

Melissa

[cathmom]

I have to disagree that this in any way suggested that McCain wouldn't work with Democrats.

 

Erica

 

Not work with them? He almost picked one as VP, from what I hear. Or is Lieberman no longer Democrat?

[5kidsforME]

Jim Lehrer kept insisting on this point because the campaigns had agreed to this format. Presidential debates don't follow standard debating form, they follow the rules that the campaigns negotiate in advance. That's why we've had townhall meetings, roundtables, etc. as part of the presidential debate schedule in the past.

 

Do you have any souces you can link that shows what the campaigns agreed too? Thanks!

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Obama took many disrespectful missteps during last night's debate, the Uh-Obama was meant to be light-hearted and funny. If it wasn't true, then it wouldn't matter, right?

 

McSame is exactly what Obama wants everyone to believe, which is why he kept pushing "Bush and your stance" all night. He wants to play on the negative emotions of the current administration to win the election. I saw him clamoring to answer questions before McCain just so he wouldn't have to say, I agree with him or he's right.

 

If McCain had uh, uh, uh all over the debate, I'd be picking on him too- believe me, the media would be having a field day with it.

 

You know what's really funny? I was SO MAD at the same guy you say went out of his way not to say I agree or he's right because he said "you're right" and "I agree" so freakin' many times that I wanted to... uh, grab his tie. :glare:

 

Ok, so I have a teeny tiny violence problem this morning. I wish Sen. Obama no bodily harm, I promise. I just wanted to shake him a few times, that's all. :001_smile:

 

I still have an issue with name-calling, but I think that's my own yucky issues coming into play. I think it's funny to call your own candidate names, but not so much the other side. IMO.

 

I think both sides are trying to distance themselves as much as possible from the current administration.

[hsmamainva]

Not work with them? He almost picked one as VP, from what I hear. Or is Lieberman no longer Democrat?

 

I was referring to the impression given by his body language during the debate (although I know it's not proper debate forum to look at the other person now)

 

I was trying to view it from the eyes of the average American .. who doesn't seem to be as up on politics as the fine ladies of this forum. :D

 

And Lieberman is a touchy subject.. at least in the eyes of some Democrats, who are none to happy with his appearing at the RNC as a key speaker, when, not too long ago, he was running as the Democratic VP. ;)

[cathmom]

I was referring to the impression given by his body language during the debate (although I know it's not proper debate forum to look at the other person now)

 

I was trying to view it from the eyes of the average American .. who doesn't seem to be as up on politics as the fine ladies of this forum. :D

 

And Lieberman is a touchy subject.. at least in the eyes of some Democrats, who are none to happy with his appearing at the RNC as a key speaker, when, not too long ago, he was running as the Democratic VP. ;)

 

I should have been clearer - I didn't mean just you - I meant, how could anyone think that?

[chiguirre]

Do you have any souces you can link that shows what the campaigns agreed too? Thanks!

 

Here's a link to a NYT article about the presidential debate negotiation process. There's an explanation of the rules governing the debates at the top of the second page.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/us/politics/21debate.html

[Krista in LA]

:iagree:

 

Some of his best friends are Democrats. :001_smile:

 

Snort.:laugh:

[Mama Lynx]

ABC also has a fact-check up: ABC Debate Fact Check

[sunflowerlady]

Well, as an undecided voter, I did not watch with an interest in one candidate or the other "winning". I wanted to hear what each had to say reagarding issues. From past experience I know that each party says that their candidate of choice is the winner. :)

 

I voted "unclear" because I think they both did well in many ways. Obama came out strongly in some ways as did McCain.

 

I am glad I watched because it is helping me in my decision. One question I had was answered and I don't have to wonder about it any longer.

[Marie in Oh]

as usual. We turned it off at 9:50. I couldn't take the emptiness of their talk anymore. There are no new ideas. It is all the common rhetoric we've been hearing for years. Neither candidate, in my opinion, has what it takes for real change. Both say they want to cut spending, but they won't. It will be the same ole, same ole. Just the funds will be alocated to different things based on the winning canidate. It will take a fundementally different philosophy of government, one which neither candidate possesses, to change things. I don't know of a politician out there that has what it takes. My dh said after about 10 minutes, "of all the people we as a people had to choose from, these two are it, huh?" I agree. It is sad that that this is the cream of the crop-- the choice of the people.

[Trivium Academy]

Pam, look at this headline...just saying. ;)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Pam, look at this headline...just saying. ;)

 

The one that says Sens. Obama and McCain err and stretch the truth? (What I mean is, the ABC headline?)

 

I'm not following.

[Sharon in SC]

As to this, it may be that Sis just can't be at the computer right now. I don't imagine she's ducking the question. This was posted around 1 am, so followup might be slow in coming.

 

:iagree: We must assume that we each have lives outside of the discussions boards. :tongue_smilie: Give Sis time, she'll respond.

[Sharon in SC]

If McCain had uh, uh, uh all over the debate, I'd be picking on him too- believe me, the media would be having a field day with it.

 

I really do believe this to be true. As it is, I don't think I've heard *one* commentator speak to Obama's stammering and I watch Fox. :tongue_smilie: (Of course, the news may have mentioned it and I just missed it).

[Crissy]

Also, I find it interesting that Sis hasn't come back and answered the question "What did McCain say that was complete falsehood?"

 

Someone else posted the link to factcheck.org, which answered the question nicely.

[Michelle T]

I'm a firm Obama supporter, but I wouldn't say he won, and neither did McCain. Both held their own quite well.

 

I thought McCain looked very tired, which isn't good for his image, but he held his own through the ninety minutes.

 

I can't imagine anyone who was already committed to one of the candidates would change their mind based on this particular debate. It's the undecided voters who are playing the important role here.

Michelle T

[Angela]

Early Childhood Education

 

 

• Zero to Five Plan: The Obama-Biden comprehensive "Zero to Five" plan will provide critical support to young children and their parents. Unlike other early childhood education plans, the Obama-Biden plan places key emphasis at early care and education for infants, which is essential for children to be ready to enter kindergarten. Obama and Biden will create Early Learning Challenge Grants to promote state "zero to five" efforts and help states move toward voluntary, universal pre-school.
  

I can't believe that I am not hearing any comments about this, especially from homeschool moms. Did no one click on Jessica's link? I can't even begin to tell you how many red flags popped up in my head when I read this!

Edited September 27, 2008 by Angela

[hsmamainva]

Early Childhood Education

 

 

• Zero to Five Plan: The Obama-Biden comprehensive "Zero to Five" plan will provide critical support to young children and their parents. Unlike other early childhood education plans, the Obama-Biden plan places key emphasis at early care and education for infants, which is essential for children to be ready to enter kindergarten. Obama and Biden will create Early Learning Challenge Grants to promote state "zero to five" efforts and help states move toward voluntary, universal pre-school.

I can't believe that I am not hearing any comments about this, especially from homeschool moms. Did no one click on Jessica's link. I can't even begin to tell you how many red flags popped up in my head when I read this!

 

Not every family can afford to homeschool and not every family can afford to have one spouse at home. I think it's a terrific idea. My youngest daughter has autism and went to an early childhood special education program for two years and improved tremendously!! So I'm not about to criticize a program that's put into place to help working and / or struggling families where both spouses have to work or they don't have the $$$ for preschool.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Early Childhood Education

 

 

• Zero to Five Plan: The Obama-Biden comprehensive "Zero to Five" plan will provide critical support to young children and their parents. Unlike other early childhood education plans, the Obama-Biden plan places key emphasis at early care and education for infants, which is essential for children to be ready to enter kindergarten. Obama and Biden will create Early Learning Challenge Grants to promote state "zero to five" efforts and help states move toward voluntary, universal pre-school.

I can't believe that I am not hearing any comments about this, especially from homeschool moms. Did no one click on Jessica's link. I can't even begin to tell you how many red flags popped up in my head when I read this!

 

Well, it's all well and good for us to oppose early learning initiatives. We are all all about early learning and supporting our small children. But then I see children who have NOTHING early on. Those kids are in the public schools later on and never ever catch up.

 

I wish there was more support for parents of young children who have a long legacy of early childhood neglect. It just perpetuates from generation to generation. Hard to watch. I wonder if this is part of the Obama-Biden proposed initiative. I've been so thrilled to see the Dolly Parton early literacy push here in TN. Now THAT's amazing.

[CLHCO]

Early Childhood Education

 

 

• Zero to Five Plan: The Obama-Biden comprehensive "Zero to Five" plan will provide critical support to young children and their parents. Unlike other early childhood education plans, the Obama-Biden plan places key emphasis at early care and education for infants, which is essential for children to be ready to enter kindergarten. Obama and Biden will create Early Learning Challenge Grants to promote state "zero to five" efforts and help states move toward voluntary, universal pre-school.

I can't believe that I am not hearing any comments about this, especially from homeschool moms. Did no one click on Jessica's link? I can't even begin to tell you how many red flags popped up in my head when I read this!

I think it was actually covered several weeks ago, if memory serves.

 

I know my children were laughing when he mentioned that program as one priority worthy of spending, despite our terrible financial crisis, and they saw their mother fall over and pretend to choke. :lol:

[5kidsforME]

I think it was actually covered several weeks ago, if memory serves.

 

I know my children were laughing when he mentioned that program as one priority worthy of spending, despite our terrible financial crisis, and they saw their mother fall over and pretend to choke. :lol:

 

I know you are joking and I really don't mean to be snarky but isn't this teaching your children to mock (potential) authority figures? Or our possbile president? If Obama wins he will be our President, will your children (this goes for other parents that even jokingly mock and/or make fun of the canidates) respect him? This goes for the other side too who mock and make fun of McCain.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I know you are joking and I really don't mean to be snarky but isn't this teaching your children to mock (potential) authority figures? Or our possbile president? If Obama wins he will be our President, will your children (this goes for other parents that even jokingly mock and/or make fun of the canidates) respect him? This goes for the other side too who mock and make fun of McCain.

 

Probably not. I mean, I was threatening bodily harm to Sen. Obama's tie last night, and I was threatening to pull Sen. McCain's tie plumb off his body because it hurt my eyes.

 

But big kids are even more respectful about candidates and sitting presidents, candidates, etc, than I am. It's just an overall thing. I do think we can strongly and fiercely and vocally disagree with people within the bosom of family, even to the point of hyperbole, and still manage to convey the notion that one is to be respectful to the office and the human being.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

double post, sorry

[asta]

If you look at film and video clips of Sen. McCain, you'll notice that he never really turns his head to look at people; he turns his torso or his entire body.

 

As he has never extensively chatted about what, exactly was broken/injured during the interrogations subsequent to his initial POW injuries, one can only guess what damage was done to his head and neck. It is known that he was beaten sufficiently to break off his teeth (which is why he has caps). He had "chipmunk cheeks" prior to his incarceration, but nothing like the one side is now.

 

I have no pony in this race. But I certainly wouldn't dismiss a person because it hurt to turn left every other two minutes to stare at someone. Not to mention the fact that the entire concept of "one must look into another person's eyes to actually be paying attention to them" is crap. Just ask anyone with Aspergers.

 

 

asta

[Trivium Academy]

There are free preschool programs already in place, I don't know about any other states but GA has one. We have the Dolly program through the library where a picture book is delivered to a child's home each month with activities to on a pamphlet.

 

I'm much more concerned with the comment of all schools being accredited. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't homeschooling in CA just deemed legal because all schools do not have to be accredited? How will I be able to homeschool my children if all schools of education have to be accredited? Will I have to pay for an umbrella school in order to be able to legally homeschool my kids if Obama is elected?

[Apiphobic]

(​this comme​nt was poste​d after​ last night'​s debat​e betwe​en Obama​ and McCai​n)​

 

"​We'​re judgi​ng who won in terms​ of who lied the least​ - so far, being​ throu​gh 3 of the 20 possi​bly lies,​ McCai​n has one verif​ied lie and Obama​ has none.​

Follo​w along​ at Lie Count​." -- Natha​n Clark​

 

LIECO​UNT

 

From the site:​

 

"​It'​s simpl​e.​ We count​ the lies from the candi​dates​ (​P/​VP)​,​ their​ offic​ial campa​igns,​ and their​ immed​iate surro​gates​ from the conventions until​ elect​ion day to hold them accou​ntabl​e for their​ state​ments​.​ We expos​e the lies to revea​l the truth​ and when we see a lie, we docum​ent it so all the world​ can see. 1 lie, 1 point​,​ with the curre​nt score​ at the top of every​ page.​"

 

curre​nt score​:​

 

DEMS - 10 lies REPUB​S - 20 lies

 

And a just for laughs video about the election campaign furor:

 

Time for some campaignin'

 

Apologies if either of these has already been posted; it's been a while since I've visited.

Edited September 27, 2008 by Apiphobic

[justme]

Admitedly, I am biased for McCain, but I do think he won on content and presentation. When he answered questions, he did so calmly and with a comfortable command of the material. Obama seemed to be trying to make up for a lack of content with bombastic style and a blizzard of words. He seemed to be talking very loudly and rambling. He also came off as petulant and disrespectful, never addressing McCain as 'Senator' while McCain addressed him as such. Whenever there was a split screen during McCain's answers, Obama could be seen smirking, shaking his finger and muttering things like 'not true' under his breath or outright trying to cut in instead of waiting his turn. Here are some of the biggest moments that stuck out for me:

 

1. After McCain's heartfelt story of the mother who asked him to wear her son's bracelet, Obama retorting with 'Well, I have one, too!" and not even knowing the name on it! Childish and phoney.

 

2. Obama referring to himself as if he were already president in one segment "As president, I reserve the right to meet with whomever I want..." Alittle ahead of himself, don't you think? McCain had a good comeback with 'Well, I don't even have a seal, yet"

 

3. After interrupting and seeming to lose a point, Obama decides HE is the moderator and with a wave of his hand says "Well, let's move on". Ugh.

 

Overall: McCain- grandfatherly, confident command of issues, patriotic, heartfelt in what he says.

 

Obama- overly rehearsed, petulant, disrespectful, egotistical, down on America.

[cathmom]

It was a little jarring to me - to be talking about this HUGE financial crisis and say that we need to spend more on early childhood education.

 

Now, if he wants to make them Montessori schools for ages 3 and up, then, yeah, maybe I'd be for it.

[NevadaRabbit]

I thought it was a bit dry, but overall pretty interesting. I don't think I learned a single new thing, but I was glad I watched it. And you? Did it affect your vote?

 

It didn't affect our vote and I agree - nothing new, nothing exciting, but revealed some interesting issues I guess I'd call "style."

 

I saw both candidates trying to correct each other ("I never said..." or "that's not correct..." etc) and, just like when my kids come to me with two completely different versions of what happened, I singsong "somebody's lyyyyy-innnnnnnnnnggg." It nauseates me about all candidates. Politics has degenerated into how the truth can best be distorted to make one look better than the other for the sound bite. Yes, let's continue to teach our children that truth is situational and relative and fluid and full of shades of gray, certainly not black-and-white, because then nobody is wrong (ow! my self esteem!) and nobody is right (high-falutin' arrogance!) and so what if we can't reach a conclusion of certainty...just pick the side that makes you feel better.

 

That was a tangent. My apologies.

 

Style. Yes, Sen. McCain appeared stiff. It's because he is, literally. His numerous broken bones from his plane crash into Vietnamese territory and the torture at the hands of his captors left him so.

 

I saw Sen. McCain deliberately pausing, silently, to contemplate his response before speaking. It was a very dramatic contrast to Sen. Obama's "I-I-I-uh..." or "well, uh, I, uh" each time he started speaking, or as he interrupted/talked over Sen. McCain. To me, this was evidence of a seasoned, confident man who wanted to compose his thoughts before speaking and give a reasoned response.

 

I commented to dh about the contrast between McCain, who refused to even look at Obama, and Obama, who tried to jollify the proceedings by calling McCain "John" as if they were pals. JMHO - McCain at times came across as disdainful to that young whippersnapper sharing the stage, while at other times I thought he was simply trying to address the audience and Mr Lehrer; Obama appeared to be trying to put himself on the same level with McCain ("look! I'm on a first-name basis even though he is 25 years older than me with decades more experience.")

 

I guess I am old-fashioned, but truth matters deeply to me (real truth; black and white did-he-or-didn't-he truth) and both candidates stank on that. Manners matter to me (edge to McCain), confidence matters to me (edge to McCain), experience and service matter to me (huge edge to McCain), so the debate just cemented my already-made decision. :001_smile:

[CAMom]

I'm going to post before I read any other responses.:D

 

I am an undecided voter although I do know that I will not vote for Obama. I am not a McCain supporter by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I thought they were pretty even as far as the talk about the economy. I wasn't impressed with either one.

 

When it turned to foreign policy, I definitely though McCain "won."

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

If you look at film and video clips of Sen. McCain, you'll notice that he never really turns his head to look at people; he turns his torso or his entire body.

 

As he has never extensively chatted about what, exactly was broken/injured during the interrogations subsequent to his initial POW injuries, one can only guess what damage was done to his head and neck. It is known that he was beaten sufficiently to break off his teeth (which is why he has caps). He had "chipmunk cheeks" prior to his incarceration, but nothing like the one side is now.

 

I have no pony in this race. But I certainly wouldn't dismiss a person because it hurt to turn left every other two minutes to stare at someone. Not to mention the fact that the entire concept of "one must look into another person's eyes to actually be paying attention to them" is crap. Just ask anyone with Aspergers.

 

He turned his left at the

fairly often. This was a choice, IMO.

 

I, too, worry about the swollen left cheek. He has said it is a result of the melanoma in the past. I worry about his periodic eye droop, too, but some have said this is cataracs. ?

 

“No spread of melanoma was found in any of these locations,†the campaign said. “However, this preventative procedure had cosmetic side effects for Senator McCain, including swelling at the site of the incision. Thus, the large scar and attendant swelling that Senator McCain has on the left side of his face is not the result of the melanoma itself, which was small and localized, but rather of the more extensive surgical procedure utilized out of a high degree of caution.â€

[Spy Car]

Jim Lehrer kept insisting on this point because the campaigns had agreed to this format. Presidential debates don't follow standard debating form, they follow the rules that the campaigns negotiate in advance. That's why we've had townhall meetings, roundtables, etc. as part of the presidential debate schedule in the past.

 

Oh do do I miss the rep button.

 

This post is exactly on point. Presidential "debates" do not follow the rules of Oxford Union, or the rules I debated under on my high school debate team.

 

Our language often utilizes the same word to refer to different concepts and this is one such case. Presidential debates have always "featured" candidates "looking" at one another. And the "ground rules" have been worked out by the campaigns (with a third party) in advance. To suggest they are following high school debate rules is simply wrong-headed.

 

The moderator implored the candidates to engage one another directly. It is true this would not be allowed in a high school debate, or under the rules of parliamentary procedure in a larger forum, but this "debate" had its own rules, and direct address was part of the format (like it or not).

 

Bill

[Alaska Mom]

I was surprised, for a guy who had to take a teleprompter to speak at a rodeo in Colorado last week, I thought Obama did rather well.

[CAMom]

I can't get over the fact that McCain never looked at him during the debate.

 

If you're going to tell folks that you're willing to work with both liberals and conservatives, but you're not willing to even turn to face someone standing ten feet away from you when they're speaking, it just doesn't come across as believable.

 

I don't know...

 

Could it just be difference in debate styles? My son is currently on a debate team and they are explicitly told not to look at their opponent during their "cross examination". (This is the only time they are both up at the same time.) So, although I did notice that McCain was not turning towards him, that didn't seem strange to me.

 

ETA: Sorry I didn't read the other repsonses first. I see this was already covered. Lesson learned. :)

Edited September 27, 2008 by CAMom

[Kate CA]

Probably not. I mean, I was threatening bodily harm to Sen. Obama's tie last night, and I was threatening to pull Sen. McCain's tie plumb off his body because it hurt my eyes.

 

But big kids are even more respectful about candidates and sitting presidents, candidates, etc, than I am. It's just an overall thing. I do think we can strongly and fiercely and vocally disagree with people within the bosom of family, even to the point of hyperbole, and still manage to convey the notion that one is to be respectful to the office and the human being.

 

I completely agree, Pam. I really did not like the administration of President Clinton, but I would be honored to meet him were I ever given the opportunity. In a free country we should and are allowed to make judgments and conversation on that person or their character or their policies. That is what being free is all about. We can still respect the office and disagree strongly with the person. :001_smile:

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I was surprised, for a guy who had to take a teleprompter to speak at a rodeo in Colorado last week, I thought Obama did rather well.

 

Oh, I imagine a Harvard-educated lawyer and accomplished speaker can occasionally string together two or three sentences without a teleprompter.

[Alaska Mom]

Oh, I imagine a Harvard-educated lawyer and accomplished speaker can occasionally string together two or three sentences without a teleprompter.

 

 

He seems to have demonstrated in the past quite a bit of difficulty with that, he's clearly shown that he's heavily reliant on speech writers - obviously, it's not coming from his experience.

[Spy Car]

He seems to have demonstrated in the past quite a bit of difficulty with that, he's clearly shown that he's heavily reliant on speech writers - obviously, it's not coming from his experience.

 

If you want to compare a candidate who has written extensively, including major inputs on speeches, and two very thoughtful self-penned books with another who (best-evidence suggests) has never written anything himself, that is a debate we're ready to have :D

 

Bill (who did not use a ghost-writer for this post [however it might have helped] :tongue_smilie:)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

He seems to have demonstrated in the past quite a bit of difficulty with that, he's clearly shown that he's heavily reliant on speech writers - obviously, it's not coming from his experience.

 

Well, he writes his own books and most of his own speeches. Where do you get the information that he doesn't?

[hsmamainva]

If you want to compare a candidate who has written extensively, including major inputs on speeches, and two very thoughtful self-penned books with another who (best-evidence suggests) has never written anything himself, that is a debate we're ready to have :D

 

Bill (who did not use a ghost-writer for this post [however it might have helped] :tongue_smilie:)

 

:iagree:

 

That's how I first heard of Obama ... from reading his books. Extremely well-written and thought-provoking ... and no speech writers needed.

[CAMom]

He also came off as petulant and disrespectful, never addressing McCain as 'Senator' while McCain addressed him as such.

 

He did address him and refer to him as 'Senator' many times. Yes, he did use his first name a lot of the time and I did think that that was way too personal for a formal presidential debate but I think it's inaccurate to say he never addressed him as Senator.:)

 

1. After McCain's heartfelt story of the mother who asked him to wear her son's bracelet, Obama retorting with 'Well, I have one, too!" and not even knowing the name on it! Childish and phoney.

 

Yep. That was a big mistake, IMO!

 

2. Obama referring to himself as if he were already president in one segment "As president, I reserve the right to meet with whomever I want..." Alittle ahead of himself, don't you think? McCain had a good comeback with 'Well, I don't even have a seal, yet"

 

I caught that, too, and thought it was a good come back.

 

3. After interrupting and seeming to lose a point, Obama decides HE is the moderator and with a wave of his hand says "Well, let's move on". Ugh.

 

That was funny!

 

I must say that I'm really looking forward to the VP debate!

[Alaska Mom]

Well, he writes his own books ........ Where do you get the information that he doesn't?

 

 

I'm not suggesting the man can't write. I could write a book if I sat down and took the time to research it, edit it and get it published. That doesn't qualify ME to be president.

 

My comment was simply that Obama has shown by his own actions that he is heavily dependent upon a teleprompter.

[CAMom]

Early Childhood Education

 

 

• Zero to Five Plan: The Obama-Biden comprehensive "Zero to Five" plan will provide critical support to young children and their parents. Unlike other early childhood education plans, the Obama-Biden plan places key emphasis at early care and education for infants, which is essential for children to be ready to enter kindergarten. Obama and Biden will create Early Learning Challenge Grants to promote state "zero to five" efforts and help states move toward voluntary, universal pre-school.

I can't believe that I am not hearing any comments about this, especially from homeschool moms. Did no one click on Jessica's link? I can't even begin to tell you how many red flags popped up in my head when I read this!

 

I agree! I got a cold chill when I heard Obama mention this last night.

 

I think if any of us thinks that his great funding for early childhood education will not, eventually, become something that he will mandate with all kinds of government hoops, we are very naive.:(

[Mekanamom]

What I got from the whole "conversation" vs. "debate" thing (and I haven't read all the replies) was that both were surprised by the suggestion at first, and Obama adapted to the "new rules" while McCain didn't. (Couldn't or wouldn't? Either way, he didn't.)

 

I came away with the idea that Obama is less rigid and more adaptable... willing to try new things; but is that a good thing or a bad thing?

 

As for who won... I think Obama clearly won for those who wanted to hear about change.

 

I think McCain won for those who wanted to hear about solid experience. And, er- steadfast reliance on the traditional "rules" and "this is how things are done"... in debate, in foreign relations, etc.

[RebeccaC]

I watched both CNN and FOX taped one :001_smile: What no one has brought up and what will be a campaign add is Obama saying 7 or 8 times (very loose paraphrase) "I agree with you on........", "We are in agreement on....." You will see Obama saying that on a campaign add more than you will see McCain saying (again very loose paraphrase) "you don't understand"

 

The add featuring Obama agreeing will take the bite out of the spin that McCain is just another 4 years of Bush because if that is so and Obama agrees with McCain x amount of times then........ follow the logic out. Obama saying I agree when McCain did not say that once will come back to haunt Obama.

 

Of course y'all know my bias is for McCain now, although I was not leaning that way until the Plain pick. I did find the first name calling just a bit too dissrespectful, first name is something you use with a friend and not always with a colleague and certainly not with an opponent. I don't think I have heard McCain call Obama Barack once..... I might have missed it but I doubt it. It is just my opinion but I found Senator Obama to be condescending when he used John in place of Senator McCain.

 

I think they both had their high places where they did well and there was no major gaffs. However if Senator Obama becomes President I will have to grow a thicker skin cause all of his umm well um uh stalls get under my skin. It just gives me the idea, which may or may not be valid, that he is grasping for his talking points and has no real ideas of his own. I just get the feel that he is thinking now I am suppose to say .......... or ........... ummm I'll get it in a minute...... That might not be reality but that is the way I perceive it.

[Carol in Cal.]

I was surprised by the comments on our local PBS station that indicated more of a draw. After listening to the commentators for a while (on both sides, BTW) I felt that the reason they felt no one won was that neither really went after the other in sound bite fashion, and also that they had heard nothing really new from either one.

 

However, people don't always tune into presidential politics much until the debates, and I think that for those who were just joining in, this debate was very telling.

 

Am I in that category, I ask myself? And to my own surprise, the answer is pretty much a qualified yes. I have followed the primaries and the election only via newspapers, and so have heard very little from the candidates themselves. OTOH, I think that from the papers I hear more and in more depth than elsewhere.

 

I had decided the morning of the debate that if anyone asked me who I was voting for, I would say 'Biden'. I really don't think that any of the other three can do the job. I think that McCain and Palin are people who I would enjoy and respect, but that McCain is too old and sickly to start this responsibility, and also too OC wrt his temper and his warlike nature. Palin is smart and effective in a small town way, but not nearly ready for a presidential role, and I don't think that I would want to bet the country on the hope that McCain will live through 4 or 8 years in office. I really, really like them even when we disagree, which is not how I feel about most politicians, but I don't think that they can do the job.

 

I don't think that Obama can, either. He is not ready, and I really don't hear the kind of knowlege and substance that I would like to in his speeches or plans. No doubt he can be very charismatic at times, but I almost feel like he is promoting wishful thinking rather than realism, and I do fear his foreign policy inexperience in this time of war and tricky geopolitics.

 

But he did one reasonable thing--he chose Biden as his running mate, and Biden I respect and pretty much think has the foreign policy experience to keep things on an even keel to some extent. Still, I have yet to see the relationship between Biden and Obama demenstrate the kind of teamwork that they will need for Biden's good qualities to become effective, which concerns me.

 

So that's the context, and in that context, it is amazing to me how well McCain did, and how clearly I felt that he won the debate. He was so good on foreign policy--not that I always agreed with him, but he certainly knew what he was talking about, and demonstrated that very well. I found his projection of gravitas very impressive, especially having seen him lose it in the past; and those who have not followed him in the past would just find it extremely impressive, I imagine. I thought that his criticism of Obama's quotes about Pakistan was very good, and that Obama seemed weaker and much less sure of himself in foreign policy. Neither was impressive on the bailout or on the economy--I think that that rattled them.

 

Earlier in the day I was ticked about McCain flip flopping on the bailout requirements. Doesn't he realize that he will be quoted and that if he's not sure what he is going to do, he should not take such strong positions? I'm really frustrated with both candidates' lack of effectiveness and credibility on the economy. It is frightening.

 

Bottom line for me:

McCain totally blew Obama out of the water in the debate.

I am aghast that these are our choices.

I will not be able to vote FOR anyone in this election, except maybe Biden.

I will need to vote against someone instead, or not vote the top of the ticket.

[Spy Car]

The add featuring Obama agreeing will take the bite out of the spin that McCain is just another 4 years of Bush because if that is so and Obama agrees with McCain x amount of times then........ follow the logic out. Obama saying I agree when McCain did not say that once will come back to haunt Obama.

 

On this point I couldn't disagree more. I thought it made Sen Obama seem reasonable and open to ideas coming from "across the aisle", and Sen McCain (who often attempts to stress his "bi-partisanship") just looked "cranky" and very "pre-scripted" in his patently thin false charges that Sen Obama "does get it".

 

And I found it especially laughable when Sen Obama time and again demonstrated that he has a clear command of the issues (agree with him, or not). I simply don't believe any fair-minded person (regardless of political stripe) could come to the conclusion Sen Obama has anything but an extraordinarily deep understanding of the issues we are facing. Sarah Palin he ain't.

 

So I thought Sen McCain looked desperate trying to push the "Obama doesn't get it line". It looked very hollow, and unbelievable.

 

People could see for themselves that Sen Obama has a deep command of the issues. They may or may not "like" his solutions to our national problems, but trying to paint him as an ignoramus? It is simply not credible!

 

Bill

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

 

Bottom line for me:

McCain totally blew Obama out of the water in the debate.

I am aghast that these are our choices.

I will not be able to vote FOR anyone in this election, except maybe Biden.

I will need to vote against someone instead, or not vote the top of the ticket.

 

I feel pretty similarly, except some of your reaction to the debate.

 

I'm of the mind -- and I totally get it that I might be wrong -- that Obama did not run this time because he thought he had a shot at winning. I think he ran thinking he would get his name out there and have a respectable showing, setting himself up for a future run. I think that he wanted to get some visibility. His campaign was just too efficient, though, and here he is. Now he has to win, but he's the new kid against the grizzled vet and it's definitely a harder row to hoe than if he'd had four or eight years to gain more of a definitive record. Speculation on my part, but.

[CAMom]

I'm of the mind -- and I totally get it that I might be wrong -- that Obama did not run this time because he thought he had a shot at winning. I think he ran thinking he would get his name out there and have a respectable showing, setting himself up for a future run. I think that he wanted to get some visibility. His campaign was just too efficient, though, and here he is. Now he has to win, but he's the new kid against the grizzled vet and it's definitely a harder row to hoe than if he'd had four or eight years to gain more of a definitive record. Speculation on my part, but.

 

Hmmm...Pam, you know, I think what you say makes a lot of sense!

 

I find myself stressing over this election. I will not be comfortable with either of these tickets in office. Sigh...