Alternatives to AOPS for very smart but not necessarily super gifted math student?

[...................]

My son is essentially crashing and burning with AOPS, even with the help of an amazing tutor and a very strong work ethic.  He is finishing up Intro to Algebra, and will be looking for probably another series, or Algebra 2 and Geometry.  His tutor has some ideas of programs that she is thinking about but if you have any good ideas, I'd like to hear them.

 

Essentially he wants something with some of the challenge of AOPS but that teaches first, instead of using the Discovery method and a little more focus on the basics along with the conceptual learning would also be great.  

 

Again, this is a math gifted student, but not 96th percentile like it seems to me that AOPS is written for.

 

 

[Julie of KY]

I and my oldest are AoPS lovers. However, my second child is very smart and very good at math, but is not tolerant of AoPS. He just gets too frustrated too easily. He will be moving to Derek Owen's for further math with me overseeing it and adding anything needed along the way.

 

I've only done Derek Owens for prealgebra and physics so far so I can't really speak to his other maths, but after looking at everything, this is the path I've chosen.

[chiguirre]

You could try the WTMA AOPS classes. The teacher provides direct instruction and picks from among the problems for homework. It's made AOPS doable for us.

[MamaSprout]

Look at Dolciani. And you can always add Alcumus.

[GoodGrief]

Derek Owens. Or the much-maligned Teaching Textbooks (of which I am a fan) :-)

[counselinggirl]

:lurk5:

[...................]

Thanks for the ideas. I'll mention the AOPS Class. Dolciani seems like a good idea and his tutor has used it in the past and so I'm sure she is already aware of that. I think TT would be too slow and easy , that would swing the pendulum too far to the other side. (But I am seriously considering TT for my other kid)

 

derek Owens is another good thought.

[Emerald Stoker]

I've burbled on before about how much I liked the Chakerian/Crabill/Stein geometry book; I don't think I've yet mentioned here how much I liked their Algebra 2 and Trigonometry book, too. It strikes me that they might possibly suit you--they're very interesting and challenging, and there is still a fair amount of discovery-type learning involved--but the scaffolding of skills seems potentially more--mmm, can't find the right word--supportive? That's not quite right, but I hope you can tell what I'm trying to say--it's as though the steps on the ladder are just the right distance apart, somehow! But the project questions at the end of each chapter are definitely meaty enough to be fun for a math-gifted student.

 

The Alg2/Trig is out of print (the Geometry may be by now as well--I'm not sure), but I got mine for cheap on abebooks some years ago. I wonder if you would be able to turn up a cheap copy, or an interlibrary loan copy, and see if that might appeal to your son?

[Emerald Stoker]

Another series of books I have on the shelves and like is the Addison-Wesley set from the '60s and '70s; the Alg2/Trig book is by Johnson/Lendsey/Slesnick/Bates and the Precalc book is Shanks/Brumfiel/Fleenor/Eicholz. I don't have the Geometry book, but I think it's Moise/Downs. If you like the looks of Dolciani (I've got that, too!), you will probably like the looks of this series as well. They're "proofy", and the explanations and problems seem good to me (but I am a musician and not a mathematician! So take with a salt mine's worth of the white stuff....).

 

We've only used them so far for sources of additional problems or for alternative explanations of something in our regularly scheduled programming that needs further clarification, but they've been useful in that regard.

 

 

[LisaKinVA]

Foerster's Algebra 1, Algebra 2 with Trig, Precalculus...

Chalkdust...

 

My boys don't do well with the discovery method.  We use Foerster's and/or Chalkdust and then follow-on with AoPS for some more challenging problems here and there.  AoPS is definitely supplemental for my boys.  PonyGirl loves math, and has thrived with every math program she's used.  She prefers AoPS, but there isn't a program that has stood in her way.

[MorningGlory]

My oldest used Jacobs 2nd edition for Geometry, Foerster's Alg & Trig for Algebra II, and Derek Owens for Precalc and Calc. He also took AP Statistics from Carole Matheny at PAH. This student is quite "gifted" but AoPS did not appeal to him at all (he tried it for Alg I). 

 

My second son is very strong in math but not in what I would consider the gifted range. He is using Jurgensen's for geometry this year and is enrolled with Wilson Hill (which uses Dolciani) next year for Algebra II. 

 

As I think about it, I do believe that I prefer Jacobs 2nd edition geometry to Jurgensen's. I haven't considered the matter until just now. Interesting. 

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

You could try the WTMA AOPS classes. The teacher provides direct instruction and picks from among the problems for homework. It's made AOPS doable for us.

May I ask what level you did with WTM and how you thought the teacher was? Also, was most of the content covered and was it covered well. Lastly, how many problems on average did they do a week?

[chiguirre]

T is doing algebra 1 (the first half of Introduction to Algebra) and will do algebra 2 (the second half) next year. They have about 7 or 8 homework problems plus 2 proof problems each week. The class meets twice a week for an hour and they do problems in class as well. Some are done by the teacher, some are done in breakout rooms in small groups. Often they try the problem first and then discuss it. The class is not a straight up lecture at all. They do most of the problems assigned in each section, about half the end of chapter problems as homework and others (slightly modified) as the test.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

T is doing algebra 1 (the first half of Introduction to Algebra) and will do algebra 2 (the second half) next year. They have about 7 or 8 homework problems plus 2 proof problems each week. The class meets twice a week for an hour and they do problems in class as well. Some are done by the teacher, some are done in breakout rooms in small groups. Often they try the problem first and then discuss it. The class is not a straight up lecture at all. They do most of the problems assigned in each section, about half the end of chapter problems as homework and others (slightly modified) as the test.

Do they do the challenge problems too? Also, how much time on math per day would say they spend? My kid has done Saxon at his school past four years including Algebra 1 and 2 which was ranging from 90 to 120 problems as week and took about 10 hours a week:( AOPS is definitely higher order math and so maybe 7 or 8 problems a week is actually a lot of problems.

[madteaparty]

You could try the WTMA AOPS classes. The teacher provides direct instruction and picks from among the problems for homework. It's made AOPS doable for us.

This is what we are doing with AOPS starting this fall.

[madteaparty]

T is doing algebra 1 (the first half of Introduction to Algebra) and will do algebra 2 (the second half) next year. They have about 7 or 8 homework problems plus 2 proof problems each week. The class meets twice a week for an hour and they do problems in class as well. Some are done by the teacher, some are done in breakout rooms in small groups. Often they try the problem first and then discuss it. The class is not a straight up lecture at all. They do most of the problems assigned in each section, about half the end of chapter problems as homework and others (slightly modified) as the test.

7 to 8 problems a week? That hardly seems like enough. I think we do about 5 problems a day, on average. We are signed up, but I may have to supplement this class. Ugh

[chiguirre]

T takes at least a couple of hours to do the weekly homework and she did some Saxon Alg 1, Keys to Algebra and an EdX Introduction to Algebra class last year. There has been little new material this year. The homework always includes the hardest problems, usually as proof problems which require written explanations. I know from the few times that they've posted answers in a forum discussion that other kids find the problems very difficult. T is a strong student so you may need more time for weekly homework.

[SilverMoon]

To answer the OP, Foerster for algebra 1 and 2. The word problems are fabulous and really check their comprehension. There's a review schedule in the TM, but I just had DD do the odds of the drill and every single word problem. After alg 1 we went with Discovering Geometry by Michael Serra. It's somewhat discovery, but pretty mild compared to AoPS. Both were/are very effective for DD/10th.

[chiguirre]

Most of the homework time is just thinking about the problem and how to approach it, not pencil and paper work. A lot of the time T is thinking about math while riding her scooter. It doesn't look like homework.

[GoodGrief]

Just FWIW, my gifted high stats math kid used Teaching Textbooks through Algebra 2, transitioned easily into Derek Owens, and went on to earn high "A"s in Calc 2 and 3 at the local university. She's been admitted to Princeton, Georgia Tech, and Dartmouth for engineering next year, so no difficulties in college admissions, and I suspect she will excel in her coursework wherever she goes. Really, I think Teaching Textbooks gets an unnecessary bad rap here (said with a smile), and it hurts the kids who actually would excel with that program as a foundation. It can work well for non-mathy kids too (I have another daughter in that category), but certainly does not need to be just for those students.

[VANURSEPRAC]

To answer the OP, Foerster for algebra 1 and 2. The word problems are fabulous and really check their comprehension. There's a review schedule in the TM, but I just had DD do the odds of the drill and every single word problem. After alg 1 we went with Discovering Geometry by Michael Serra. It's somewhat discovery, but pretty mild compared to AoPS. Both were/are very effective for DD/10th.

 

Did ya'll do the odds of every question and single word problems?  I am sorry but I don't understand " odds of drill".

 

My 7th grader has been doing odds of every problem and all word problems.

 

She will be starting Alg II in the fall and wondering do we still do all odds and every word.

 

I  have heard the Alg II/Trig book has many more problems (I have not seen it)

 

Thank you for your time.

[SilverMoon]

I meant we do every single word problem, but only odds of the non-word problems.

[madteaparty]

To answer the OP, Foerster for algebra 1 and 2. The word problems are fabulous and really check their comprehension. There's a review schedule in the TM, but I just had DD do the odds of the drill and every single word problem. After alg 1 we went with Discovering Geometry by Michael Serra. It's somewhat discovery, but pretty mild compared to AoPS. Both were/are very effective for DD/10th.

I REALLY love Foerster and think the word problems will come in handy with the new standardized tests which contain so many words.

I'm personally struggling to find a spot to fit it in, with AOPS (class, most book problems and alcumus) but perhaps this summer. 

[...................]

Thank you so much for all these suggestions.  We are going to take a look in person at Foerster's before purchasing.  We've checked out Math WIthout Borders and my son liked the videos. (Though he prefers a readable, text that teaches itself to videos.)

 

THoughts on Chalkdust?

[Brad S]

There are a number of comments on Algebra 2 above, and Foerster seems like a reasonable text.  Whichever text you use, you'll want to be sure that some data analysis/statistics is incorporated into the class.  I think that Jacobs Geometry (at least the 3rd edition which we used) could be used, especially if you're sure to include enough problems which cover proofs (although skip the algebra review problems and substitute with regular algebra review -- you might even want to slowly start algebra 2/trig/college algebra, etc. while you're doing geometry so as not to forget the algebra). If precalculus is of interest, you may want to look at a similar thread specifically for precalculus .  Best wishes.

 

Edited to correct typo.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Brad S

[TarynB]

There are a number of comments on Algebra 2 above, and Foerster seems like a reasonable text.  Whichever text you use, you'll want to be sure that some data analysis/statistics is incorporated into the class.  I think that Jacobs Geometry (at least the 3rd edition which we used) could be used, especially if you're sure to include enough problems which cover proofs (although skip the algebra review problems and substitute with regular algebra review -- you might even want to slowly start algebra 2/trig/college algebra, etc. while you're doing geometry so as not to forget the algebra). If precalculus is of interest, you may want to look at a similar thread specifically for precalculus .  Best wishes.

 

Edited to correct typo.

 

I apologize if this question is veering too far off-topic, but could you please elaborate on the bolded? I might have my DS use Jacobs Geo 3rd ed. through Derek Owens next. I don't know if/how much algebra review DO includes, but what do you feel is lacking in the algebra review problems in Jacobs Geo 3rd ed.? TIA.

 

[Kassia]

Just FWIW, my gifted high stats math kid used Teaching Textbooks through Algebra 2, transitioned easily into Derek Owens, and went on to earn high "A"s in Calc 2 and 3 at the local university. She's been admitted to Princeton, Georgia Tech, and Dartmouth for engineering next year, so no difficulties in college admissions, and I suspect she will excel in her coursework wherever she goes. Really, I think Teaching Textbooks gets an unnecessary bad rap here (said with a smile), and it hurts the kids who actually would excel with that program as a foundation. It can work well for non-mathy kids too (I have another daughter in that category), but certainly does not need to be just for those students.

 

Thanks for sharing.  My daughter has always been a very strong math student and wants to major in math in college.  This was our first year of homeschooling and I used TT for geometry but, based on so many negative reviews, I was afraid to continue with TT for Algebra 2 so I purchased Thinkwell for next year.  I wonder if we should have stuck with TT for Algebra 2 since she has been happy with it for geometry (and we know she has learned a lot).  

 

And congratulations to your daughter!  :)

 

Erica

[Brad S]

I apologize if this question is veering too far off-topic, but could you please elaborate on the bolded? I might have my DS use Jacobs Geo 3rd ed. through Derek Owens next. I don't know if/how much algebra review DO includes, but what do you feel is lacking in the algebra review problems in Jacobs Geo 3rd ed.? TIA.

 

 

I don't know what algebra review DO includes, but I don't like the Jacobs Geometry (3rd ed) algebra review because they're just simple calculation exercises, and I recall that they're only one topic at a time...so you'd only see that type of problem once in a whole year if that were the only review.  I'd prefer to use a mix of word problems from Foerster, either algebra 1 or the beginning of algebra 2, or use KhanAcademy.org, or something else for algebra review.

[TarynB]

I don't know what algebra review DO includes, but I don't like the Jacobs Geometry (3rd ed) algebra review because they're just simple calculation exercises, and I recall that they're only one topic at a time...so you'd only see that type of problem once in a whole year if that were the only review. I'd prefer to use a mix of word problems from Foerster, either algebra 1 or the beginning of algebra 2, or use KhanAcademy.org, or something else for algebra review.

Ah, I see. That makes sense. Thank you for explaining.

[Matryoshka]

Thank you so much for all these suggestions. We are going to take a look in person at Foerster's before purchasing. We've checked out Math WIthout Borders and my son liked the videos. (Though he prefers a readable, text that teaches itself to videos.)

 

My mathy but not AoPS loving kid used Foersters to teach herself Alg1 just from the text. She found the explanations very clear. Most of the times she called me over to clarify something, she'd say "oh, never mind, I get it" by the time I got there as she read it through a second time.

[melmichigan]

7 to 8 problems a week? That hardly seems like enough. I think we do about 5 problems a day, on average. We are signed up, but I may have to supplement this class. Ugh

Having had a student go through the AoPS online classes, there will be enough work available between the textbook and mastering alcumus topics at the different leveled settings (I don't know if those are assigned, but I expect time on alcumus each day).  If they really need more they can do FTW or Mathcounts Trainer.  There are always more problems.   :)

 

In the AoPS online class (via AoPS directly) they have class, videos, ten or so challenge problems (including at least one proof type), and alcumus. The WTM version of Algebra I uses the AoPS book, but also uses a second textbook, and there will be a recommended workbook as well this year.  It's the same with all but the AoPS Geometry, to my knowledge.

Edited March 10, 2016 by melmichigan

[SeaConquest]

Having had a student go through the AoPS online classes, there will be enough work available between the textbook and mastering alcumus topics at the different leveled settings (I don't know if those are assigned, but I expect time on alcumus each day). If they really need more they can do FTW or Mathcounts Trainer. There are always more problems. :)

 

In the AoPS online class (via AoPS directly) they have class, videos, ten or so challenge problems (including at least one proof type), and alcumus. The WTM version of Algebra I uses the AoPS book, but also uses a second textbook, and there will be a recommended workbook as well this year. It's the same with all but the AoPS Geometry, to my knowledge.

What other textbook and workbook are they using?

[madteaparty]

Having had a student go through the AoPS online classes, there will be enough work available between the textbook and mastering alcumus topics at the different leveled settings (I don't know if those are assigned, but I expect time on alcumus each day). If they really need more they can do FTW or Mathcounts Trainer. There are always more problems. :)

 

In the AoPS online class (via AoPS directly) they have class, videos, ten or so challenge problems (including at least one proof type), and alcumus. The WTM version of Algebra I uses the AoPS book, but also uses a second textbook, and there will be a recommended workbook as well this year. It's the same with all but the AoPS Geometry, to my knowledge.

Oh, I know how aops online classes work as we are on our third one. But between the homework problems, and alcumus, and the book, that is a great many problems to go down to 7! But I agree that no one is stopping you from doing all end of section problems vs just the assigned ones. I am also glad for the extra textbook, for sure.

[melmichigan]

What other textbook and workbook are they using?

Per the WTMA website:

 

Prealgebra uses the SM6 IP books.  

 

Algebra I: Algebra II. Freeman, Sara. Milliken (2002). This book is the second in a series, not level 2 for Algebra, hence the Algebra “II†designation.  Recommended Workbook: TBD  

 

Algebra II: The 100+ Series: Algebra II. Greensboro, NC: Carson-Dellosa, 2014

Edited March 11, 2016 by melmichigan

[melmichigan]

Oh, I know how aops online classes work as we are on our third one. But between the homework problems, and alcumus, and the book, that is a great many problems to go down to 7! But I agree that no one is stopping you from doing all end of section problems vs just the assigned ones. I am also glad for the extra textbook, for sure.

I look at it as the WTMA homework being similar in number to the homework problems in the AoPS online class, so I'm not sure that it's that different.  In the AoPS online class the textbook is left to the student to implement, or not.  The only difference may be the use of alcumus, but again, it's an available resource.  I think WTMA tests will balance it out somewhat.

 

I like the idea of an extra textbook too.  To me, it seems like WTMA is trying to balance AoPS with a little more standard, or SM approach, to practice problems in order to make it accessible to more students.  That may mean that it won't be the best option for some students who would do better with the AoPS pace and application.  My DD reveled in the AoPS online classes, my DS is much younger, so the WTMA class may be a better fit.  We'll have to wait and see.   :)

Edited March 10, 2016 by melmichigan

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Having had a student go through the AoPS online classes, there will be enough work available between the textbook and mastering alcumus topics at the different leveled settings (I don't know if those are assigned, but I expect time on alcumus each day).  If they really need more they can do FTW or Mathcounts Trainer.  There are always more problems.   :)

 

In the AoPS online class (via AoPS directly) they have class, videos, ten or so challenge problems (including at least one proof type), and alcumus. The WTM version of Algebra I uses the AoPS book, but also uses a second textbook, and there will be a recommended workbook as well this year.  It's the same with all but the AoPS Geometry, to my knowledge.

How will WTM AOPS geometry be different?

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Oh, I know how aops online classes work as we are on our third one. But between the homework problems, and alcumus, and the book, that is a great many problems to go down to 7! But I agree that no one is stopping you from doing all end of section problems vs just the assigned ones. I am also glad for the extra textbook, for sure.

Are you saying the AOPS classes have a lot more problems than the WTM AOPS classes? I do get the impression that WTM classes are done at a slower pace than AOPS classes so maybe that accounts for the problem differences? Or am I confused:)?

[Arcadia]

(Though he prefers a readable, text that teaches itself to videos.)

For geometry; Moise & Down, Jurgensen, Jacobs are all readable and don't need videos.

 

If you have a half price bookstore near to you, take a look there.

 

For challenge, he can try some past years AMC10/12 problems or he can try the AoPS volume 1 & volume 2 books at leisure. AMC problems and solutions are free online. The solution manual for the AoPS vol 1 & 2 is recommended unless you have a tutor to help.

[madteaparty]

Are you saying the AOPS classes have a lot more problems than the WTM AOPS classes? I do get the impression that WTM classes are done at a slower pace than AOPS classes so maybe that accounts for the problem differences? Or am I confused:)?

I spoke too soon, because I guess in terms of actual problems assigned, the two classes are the same. I can't imagine not doing the rest of the book problems as well as alcumus, though.

[MarkT]

Prealgebra uses the SM6 IP books.  

 

 hence the Algebra “II†designation.  

The II vs 2 does not make it much less confusing -  better titles would have been  IA  and IB  or I and I-plus.  

Same problem with WTMA class names.

[melmichigan]

How will WTM AOPS geometry be different?

I only meant that the other classes list a second base textbook or workbook.  The Geometry does not list any additional texts according to the current description. 

[...................]

With the AOPS class, Alcumus is REQUIRED because the student doesn't necessarily do the Exercise problems in the book.  So, it's a LOT of problems and Alcumus makes sure they master the basics and sends them back if they don't.  It's a LOT of work, that is for sure.  

Edited March 11, 2016 by Calming Tea

[LisaKinVA]

Re: Chalkdust

 

My oldest has used both Foerster's (with DVDs) and Chalkdust (with DVDs).  He all but ignored the Math w/o Border DVDs (as did PonyGirl, she preferred to simply read the text and get on with it.)  Both of my boys have preferred the Chalkdust DVDs.  The explanations are superb.  I'd have to go grab the texts to be certain, but I'm pretty sure he uses Larson texts (a well regarded text/author) for Algebra 1-Calculus, but pretty sure the Geometry text is different.  The word problems are also relevant to the real world, and there are more than enough problems.  Doing the odd's would be too many (but having a plethora of problems in the sets  is helpful if you want to create your own tests, have a child who needs more review, etc.)  The instructor posts the homework sets on his website -- he has a "regular" version and an "honors" version.  It was a strong homeschool favorite for years, but due to costs (and other alternatives) fell a bit by the wayside.  The Chalkdust texts have Chapter Reviews, Tests and Cumulative Reviews built into the text.  

 

When we began homeschooling, it was my intent to use Chalkdust all the way through.  We hit some bumps and curves, but I'm heading back in that direction.  That said, you will have to pry my Jacob's, Foerster, Life of Fred and AoPS books out of my cold, dead, hands.  These are all solid textbooks/programs (although we use LoF mostly as supplement...for fun).

 

I have at least three gifted math students, one extraordinarily so (but her IQ is actually not much different than her brothers, they are all in the same range.  I think it's more her love of the subject that makes the difference). 

[...................]

Re: Chalkdust

 

My oldest has used both Foerster's (with DVDs) and Chalkdust (with DVDs).  He all but ignored the Math w/o Border DVDs (as did PonyGirl, she preferred to simply read the text and get on with it.)  Both of my boys have preferred the Chalkdust DVDs.  The explanations are superb.  I'd have to go grab the texts to be certain, but I'm pretty sure he uses Larson texts (a well regarded text/author) for Algebra 1-Calculus, but pretty sure the Geometry text is different.  The word problems are also relevant to the real world, and there are more than enough problems.  Doing the odd's would be too many (but having a plethora of problems in the sets  is helpful if you want to create your own tests, have a child who needs more review, etc.)  The instructor posts the homework sets on his website -- he has a "regular" version and an "honors" version.  It was a strong homeschool favorite for years, but due to costs (and other alternatives) fell a bit by the wayside.  The Chalkdust texts have Chapter Reviews, Tests and Cumulative Reviews built into the text.  

 

When we began homeschooling, it was my intent to use Chalkdust all the way through.  We hit some bumps and curves, but I'm heading back in that direction.  That said, you will have to pry my Jacob's, Foerster, Life of Fred and AoPS books out of my cold, dead, hands.  These are all solid textbooks/programs (although we use LoF mostly as supplement...for fun).

 

I have at least three gifted math students, one extraordinarily so (but her IQ is actually not much different than her brothers, they are all in the same range.  I think it's more her love of the subject that makes the difference). 

Thank you so so much!! I will really encourage CHalkdust