Bulky winter coats and child car seats

[heartlikealion]

FWIW re the bolded, car seat use makes more than a very tiny difference. The data is clear and strong on that. For instance:

 

Carseats reduce the risk of death by 71% for infants and by 54% for children ages 1-4, and reduce the need for hospitalization by 69% for children ages 4 and under. National SAFE KIDS Campaign and NHTSA Child Passenger Safety Technician Program Participant Manual pg. C-4

 

Booster seats reduce injury to 4-8 year olds by 59%. JAMA

 

For children in carseats, forward-facing kids are 4 times more likely to be injured in a side impact than rear-facing kids. MSNBC

 

Children ages 2-5 restrained by a seat belt only are 4 times more likely to suffer a head injury compared to those in a child restraint. CHOP Research Institute CPS Issue Report

 

 

And to address the issue of accurate information being hard to come by, I both agree and disagree with that. What drives me crazy (but has improved dramatically) is when misinformation is spread by way of outdated posters or handouts at places like pediatricians' offices. I saw that a lot when my older kids were very little, but I have seen much better car seat info at doctors' offices more recently. OTOH, every car seat comes with a manual, and those manuals aren't difficult to read. They certainly could be better, and they have gotten a lot better in the last decade, but they're still readable. Every one I've read (and I read them with each seat we get), has explained clearly how tight the straps need to be, where the chest clip should be, not to wear bulky coats, etc.

 

To throw one more piece of information out that many people don't seem to be aware of with car seats, is that using the top tether is really important with a forward facing seat. While the seats are required to pass crash testing without the top tether, use of the tether drastically improves performance of the seat by reducing forward movement. I think maybe people are getting better with that than they used to be, especially now that tether anchors have been standard for long enough for most people to have them, but I still see plenty of cars where the top tether isn't connected, and I expect many of those are people who just don't know they should do that.

 

I honestly don't remember the manual saying anything about harness clip height or bulky coats. I learned a lot of these things elsewhere. Harness clip height might be there, but I really don't remember seeing anything about clothing. Also, parents are expected to read the vehicle manual AND carseat manual which is quite annoying. I read both and couldn't find anywhere where it stated whether or not the seat belt adjuster that came with our vehicle was an approved substitute for the one that you use with a backless booster. Why would I want to use the vehicle one instead of the booster one? Because somehow along the time of owning the Graco Nautilus (which we used for years) we lost the adjuster clip. We had never needed it because we were using it with the back. I tried to use it with the vehicle one while I waited for my replacement in the mail. During a check point the policeman gave me props for my kids in their seats... but he didn't seem to notice that the seatbelt didn't stay well on ds' shoulder (this was a very short-term thing and I'm not proud of it, but it happened). Some parents might think they can rely on someone like a policeman or fighter fighter to know a lot about car safety, but many times they actually don't. I got laughed at when I called a fire dept. about disposing a car seat. Like, lady you're barking up the wrong tree. What the heck does a fire dept. have to do with car seats?

 

Some things just aren't addressed in either manual. And let's not forget that lots of other relatives are in charge of transportation and just aren't as savvy with locating the information or don't think it's important because, "back in my day we didn't even use ____." There is a problem with getting the information to consumers and saying, "check your manuals" is not always convenient, even online.

 

As for the top tether... I was NOT using it for a long time. Why? Because I thought it was part of LATCH and I was not using LATCH.

[SKL]

Yeah, I don't have my car seat manual any more (the car seats were purchased in 2007 and I replaced them after an accident in 2011).  But I don't remember them saying anything about how the straps and clips should be once there is a kid in the seat.  I managed after a lot of time and frustration to figure out how to get the straps in the seat correctly and the seats in the car correctly.  I remember it seeming really counterintuitive, but whatever.  I got it to work, but then I just figured you insert the kid and clip and go.  If there was something about the clip going between the armpits or making the straps super snug, I missed that part.  Possibly because I was this close to burning the dang thing before I got to that point.

[heartlikealion]

Yeah, I don't have my car seat manual any more (the car seats were purchased in 2007 and I replaced them after an accident in 2011).  But I don't remember them saying anything about how the straps and clips should be once there is a kid in the seat.  I managed after a lot of time and frustration to figure out how to get the straps in the seat correctly and the seats in the car correctly.  I remember it seeming really counterintuitive, but whatever.  I got it to work, but then I just figured you insert the kid and clip and go.  If there was something about the clip going between the armpits or making the straps super snug, I missed that part.  Possibly because I was this close to burning the dang thing before I got to that point.

 

I only heard about the "pinch test" online in car seat groups. I really don't remember that in any manuals. And the armpit level thing I also learned online. That's also where I learned that after market products are a no no, despite the huge aisle of items in the baby section at the store! Guess they can get away with it because they can be used elsewhere? We were given some as baby gifts so I put the strap covers on our stroller and use the neck pillow for myself in the house LOL

 

[SKL]

Flashbacks, ugh.  I am so glad my kids are past that stage.

[Guest]

We also are concerned about the hypothermia issue in an accident. It's way more likely than a high speed collision for a lot of our travels with truthfully. I keep a large hunting knife, first aid kit, fire starter, some rations, extra water, and extra blankets/towels/TP in our vehicle just in case we end up stranded off well traveled roads, which is a distinct possibility. Cell coverage is very spotty outside the large town centers. And if my vehicle gets stuck off the road it will stay stuck without a tow truck - it's unwenchable and unpushable for anything but a full sized torque heavy truck with chains on. Come to think of it I really need to keep a length of rope back there too...

 

So - that said, we are still careful with straps and very high chest clips. I don't take off coats in the car but I always dress my children like we could be stuck in the snow at any moment, even for short trips. I'm really bad about doing it for myself actually - I'm the least safe person for a snow accident because I'm usually dressed the lightest.

 

The cost benefit analysis for vehicle safety isn't totally cut and dried. We have to triage the most immediate risks. For us that is keeping adequately safe seating as long as possible, proper clothing for being outdoors even if we know we are staying in a vehicle, and some survival items in case we do have an accident or break down. I've been stuck with five small children in snowy freezing weather, in an unworking vehicle, for over an hour. That was an anxiety producing occurrence I never want to repeat.

[Carrie12345]

 

So the question is, how? How do we share the information with people who don't seem interested? If you, personally, avoid all parenting magazines, memes, social media in general (if I recall correctly), and parenting websites, how DID you get this and other necessary info? 

To me it seems there are equal cries of "Don't tell me I'm wrong!" and "Why didn't anyone tell me?" You really can't have both.

 

I hate to admit it, but I no longer say anything to anyone unless specifically asked.  Well, that's not entirely true. Sometimes I urge my sister to say something to people she's closer to and consider it off my shoulders.  I see plenty of car seat issues IRL and in online pictures, and I do fear for those kids.  But the wrath of a Mommy who can't handle genuine concern and science (and therefore won't make any simple changes) is a social nightmare with little to no benefit.

 

I'm glad there's a strong network of CPSTs and fire/police car seat events for the people who DO want to learn.  The water's there for horses who want to drink.

[brehon]

I hate to admit it, but I no longer say anything to anyone unless specifically asked. Well, that's not entirely true. Sometimes I urge my sister to say something to people she's closer to and consider it off my shoulders. I see plenty of car seat issues IRL and in online pictures, and I do fear for those kids. But the wrath of a Mommy who can't handle genuine concern and science (and therefore won't make any simple changes) is a social nightmare with little to no benefit.

 

I'm glad there's a strong network of CPSTs and fire/police car seat events for the people who DO want to learn. The water's there for horses who want to drink.

It's funny; in my *personal* life I rarely say anything to parents who aren't using car seats or booster seats correctly for just the reason you mentioned - parents who react like you just slapped them across the face with a glove & challenged them to a duel.

 

*Professionally* I do make car seat safety an issue. I have and probably will again at some point point out to parents (a) what my state's law actually says, ( b ) what the science says, and ( c ) how they can make their child(ren) safer. I think it's the uniform - I'm more comfortable speaking out and others listen without harsh reactions.

[SKL]

Hmm, I have gently advised younger moms about correct placement etc. when I've seen them doing it unsafely.  They can take my advice or leave it, but at least they have the information to consider.

 

Of course it is not necessary to include language such as "well if you don't care about your kids" or "if you prefer to be ignorant" or "my kids know I care about their safety" bla bla bla.

Edited January 20, 2016 by SKL

[SKL]

So I'm hearing "it's a serious, life-or death issue" and "lots of people don't realize it" but "I'm not going to tell parents about it when I see it."  "I'm more afraid of the parents' eyerolls than of the kids' potential injuries."

 

Sounds to me like you are actually acting on your belief that it isn't really that serious of an issue.

 

If you saw a child getting ready to run off the side of a cliff, you'd tell someone or go grab the kid.  You wouldn't be worrying about eyerolls.

[heartlikealion]

I hate to admit it, but I no longer say anything to anyone unless specifically asked.  Well, that's not entirely true. Sometimes I urge my sister to say something to people she's closer to and consider it off my shoulders.  I see plenty of car seat issues IRL and in online pictures, and I do fear for those kids.  But the wrath of a Mommy who can't handle genuine concern and science (and therefore won't make any simple changes) is a social nightmare with little to no benefit.

 

I'm glad there's a strong network of CPSTs and fire/police car seat events for the people who DO want to learn.  The water's there for horses who want to drink.

 

I think this depends where you live. We have a set of friends that went to a police station to ask about installing their car seat and they were told that they couldn't help. I don't think it was simply that the police station couldn't do the install, but that they couldn't assist at all. I am under the impression there was no CPST there. I know this is not the same as an event, but if you don't know of any events and you aren't familiar with the online CPST locator, you're kind of lost.

[HomeAgain]

I think this depends where you live. We have a set of friends that went to a police station to ask about installing their car seat and they were told that they couldn't help. I don't think it was simply that the police station couldn't do the install, but that they couldn't assist at all. I am under the impression there was no CPST there. I know this is not the same as an event, but if you don't know of any events and you aren't familiar with the online CPST locator, you're kind of lost.

 

This.

 

I will be the first to say that the system sucks.  I mean, royally sucks.  We expect parents to use a device every day that

a) isn't intuitive

b) had different rules for different vehicles (you should see the top tether pictures I have!)

c) has different rules based on the seat.

 

It isn't fair. It is one of the worst set ups for new parents and the system needs to change.  And while there is help available, you have to KNOW how to find it. cert.safekids.org isn't out and loud, and NHTSA only finds CPSTs in the states.  Oh, and the CPSTs have to register to be found. My future dream is a world without CPSTs and their training, because cars and seats will become standardized right down to retracting straps and autoinstalling.  We're getting there on the autoinstalling. LOL  Still waiting on the rest.

 

In the meantime, I try to do what I can for parents.  I make easy checklists for them to throw in the gloveboxes if they don't want a seat check.  I'm a picture person, new parents are picture people.  Each part of the seat has an arrow pointing to it and what to look for.  They get a card with SafeKids info on it.  I give the info to nurses and parent helps and playgroups....but people still have to want it.

[Carrie12345]

I think this depends where you live. We have a set of friends that went to a police station to ask about installing their car seat and they were told that they couldn't help. I don't think it was simply that the police station couldn't do the install, but that they couldn't assist at all. I am under the impression there was no CPST there. I know this is not the same as an event, but if you don't know of any events and you aren't familiar with the online CPST locator, you're kind of lost.

 

I wonder what the actual problem is, then.  Are there local listings when you look online (knowing there is a locator)?  

 

If there is a lack of qualified people, I'm not sure what the solution might be.  

I feel nearly bombarded with (official and casual) advertising in local magazines, in-person bulletin boards, online (local and not local) websites/articles, local FB pages, homeschool groups, in pediatrician and ob/mw offices...  It feels like there is a huge effort, at multiple levels, to get the word out.  I'm not sure where else they could advertise to reach the people who don't see those things.

[heartlikealion]

I wonder what the actual problem is, then.  Are there local listings when you look online (knowing there is a locator)?  

 

If there is a lack of qualified people, I'm not sure what the solution might be.  

I feel nearly bombarded with (official and casual) advertising in local magazines, in-person bulletin boards, online (local and not local) websites/articles, local FB pages, homeschool groups, in pediatrician and ob/mw offices...  It feels like there is a huge effort, at multiple levels, to get the word out.  I'm not sure where else they could advertise to reach the people who don't see those things.

 

Let's see. I have never noticed a sign in a pediatrician's office about car checks where I've lived. And between my two kids I've gone to at least 3 pediatric offices and a health dept. in different cities. When I took dd to the children's hospital I did see a sign (like a height chart) indicating height for continuing to use a booster seat. I even took a picture of the sign. I don't think there was any info. on the sign about CPSTs, though.

 

I don't read parenting magazines. I don't know of any local magazines.

 

I do not stumble across bulletin boards in my daily life. Seriously, I don't. I think the public library might have a small one with a few library-related things, if that.

 

There is no "local" facebook group for my zip code. My local facebook groups are mommy groups/breastfeeding/buy,sell, trade and are 45 min. away. I don't see advertisements for car checks there except ONE mommy group that is 3 hours away from me (I go to that town sometimes) and those aren't necessarily official events. It's like two CPSTs that are actively involved and have offered to check seats at a given time or by appointment.

 

This is just my personal experience. I never even heard the term "CPST" for the longest time.

[luuknam]

FTR, I don't recall the car seat manual saying anything about bulky coats. It may or may not have said anything about bulky coats. Oldest was born in August in Texas - bulky coats probably would not even have registered if it was in there, and since kids outgrow the infant seats around their first birthday, same issue with the toddler seat.

 

Also, while it might be relatively easy to find places that say "no bulky coats" or "tight straps", that doesn't mean they *explain* the whys adequately. "Kid might fly out of the car seat if wearing a bulky coat" seems like a fairly remote risk, even when explaining that the coat will be compressed like in a vacuum sealer. I've actually held my kid in a car seat upside down (did not shake; isn't there a thing about not shaking babies?), and kids just don't fall out of car seats that easily. So, yeah, there are some anecdotes of kids being expelled from their car seat... but it's rare to see an explanation of "even if the kid doesn't get expelled, loose straps increase the risk of the head flying forward too much compared to the body and the kid breaking their neck internally", which seems like a much more common risk (based on my ignorant guesses).

Edited January 20, 2016 by luuknam

[Carrie12345]

 

 

This is just my personal experience. I never even heard the term "CPST" for the longest time.

 

To be clear, I'm not doubting your experience.  I'm just genuinely wondering if it's an issue of a lack of qualified people, or if there's some place people expect to get safety information that qualified people have neglected to cover.  Because I'm pretty sure people don't want door knockers, lol.

[Seeking Squirrels]

We also are concerned about the hypothermia issue in an accident. It's way more likely than a high speed collision for a lot of our travels with truthfully. I keep a large hunting knife, first aid kit, fire starter, some rations, extra water, and extra blankets/towels/TP in our vehicle just in case we end up stranded off well traveled roads, which is a distinct possibility. Cell coverage is very spotty outside the large town centers. And if my vehicle gets stuck off the road it will stay stuck without a tow truck - it's unwenchable and unpushable for anything but a full sized torque heavy truck with chains on. Come to think of it I really need to keep a length of rope back there too...

 

So - that said, we are still careful with straps and very high chest clips. I don't take off coats in the car but I always dress my children like we could be stuck in the snow at any moment, even for short trips. I'm really bad about doing it for myself actually - I'm the least safe person for a snow accident because I'm usually dressed the lightest.

 

The cost benefit analysis for vehicle safety isn't totally cut and dried. We have to triage the most immediate risks. For us that is keeping adequately safe seating as long as possible, proper clothing for being outdoors even if we know we are staying in a vehicle, and some survival items in case we do have an accident or break down. I've been stuck with five small children in snowy freezing weather, in an unworking vehicle, for over an hour. That was an anxiety producing occurrence I never want to repeat.

 

One thing you can do to make it safer if you are going to leave coats on in the car, is to unzip the coat so they are still wearing it, but the harness straps go flat against their chests. Then you can zip it back up in front of the straps. This isn't my favorite method as it makes an extra step to get to the buckles to get a kid back out quickly. But if freezing is a bigger concern than quickly evacuating the car in situations you're most likely to be in, then it is a good compromise between removing the coat or buckling over it.

[Seeking Squirrels]

Re: availability of CPST's. When I was pretty active in the community I felt like we were pretty out there. We did check events at schools, so the information for it was advertised by the school and passed directly to parents. We did checks in parking lots of places like Costco/SAMS on saturdays. But I was in the thick of it. Now that I've been away from doing all of that, I can almost forget about it because I don't see it anywhere. It *IS* a bit frustrating TBH. I always check for info at the pediatrician and only sometimes find it. I think a good place to post the info would be on the aisle where car seats are sold at stores. A nice big sign in the middle of the aisle with the website for finding a CPST.

 

Manuals could also be a lot more clear. They are written with legality in mind and it just makes them long and complicated. If they would make a shorter, written-to-a-parent guide to go along with it we might see more people taking the time to learn the big key points. I always checked the manual if a seat came through that I wasn't familiar with. We do that both to make certain we follow any guidelines that may be slightly different than average, and to model the behavior to the parent. I also referred to it to show parents where certain information was. Sometimes *I* had a hard time finding something important and I knew exactly what I was looking for.

 

It's definitely a system that needs some improvement.

[heartlikealion]

To be clear, I'm not doubting your experience.  I'm just genuinely wondering if it's an issue of a lack of qualified people, or if there's some place people expect to get safety information that qualified people have neglected to cover.  Because I'm pretty sure people don't want door knockers, lol.

 

I think there are a lack of qualified people, or they just aren't the most accessible? I assume that some people that are trained are busy with their daily job and that they aren't necessarily setting up one-on-one appointments. I don't know how that works, though.

 

I live in the boonies so it's no surprise my zip code pulls up zero matches. There are matches 30 min. away, but neither are at a fire dept. When dd was born I spoke to a nurse about doing a car seat check at the fire dept. by the hospital and she informed me that that fire dept. did not do them. Talk about a missed opportunity. Right next to the hospital!! All police and firemen should be CPSTs or they should stop being referred to as some sort of "go to" place for help.

 

One idea in this thread was signage in the car seat aisle at the store. I like that, but I don't know if that would violate some store rules. Another idea I like is nurses or some hospital staff member talking to/handing out something to parents at the hospital regarding a safety check location. I know hospitals usually can't do the installs, but they could pass the info on.

 

I could never get a good install with ds in my car when he was young, so I only drove him around in dh's car. Well, the A/C was messed up in dh's car at some point so this was a bit of a nightmare. I'm so embarrassed now, but back then we had something shoved under ds' seat to get a snug fit. I forced myself to learn more about car seats and have tried to educate dh, but a lot of it goes in one ear and out the other. Like he wanted me to swap the car seats (move dd behind passenger seat, move ds behind him) and I said it wasn't that easy because I had to remove the headrest first. The car's headrest interfered with ds' high back booster and taking it off required a tiny screw driver. I did it, but I had to locate the screw driver. This is just a tiny example of how installs can get complicated. I'm still no expert and I might be doing other things wrong.

[LMV]

For parents looking for help, I think the best idea is to look at the CPST locator [and, yes, I realize that there are some areas with a dearth of CPSTs].  Many are affiliated with Fire Departments, EMS organizations, Police Departments, and Hospital EDs but not all of these facilities will have CPSTs or have them available at all times.  Several of our trauma nurses are also CPSTs in the ED I work in.  They do community outreach but also will do installs if you arrange ahead of time. Our hospital is actually looking at sending several of the mother-baby nurses through the  CPST course and staffing in such a way to allow them to do safety checks prior to newborn discharge. 

Edited January 20, 2016 by LMV

[SLT]

Yes, I believe it to be a serious issue. My kids have never worn bulky coats in the car. It only takes a couple of seconds to slip it off and then they can cover up with it after buckling. 

 

In my certification course to become a Child Passenger Safety Technician, one of our instructors was from highway patrol. He told about a very small child they picked up off the road. Her one-piece coat/infant snow suit was found still strapped into the seat perfectly. Crash forces are nothing to mess around with and there's no way to duplicate it at home to be able to assume you got enough slack out. It doesn't take much.

 

I could easily see a 2yo being ejected if buckled into only the vehicle belt. It's just not designed for them. Actually the shoulder belt probably wouldn't fit them at all, making them restrained by lap belt only. Even if they weren't ejected, the lap belt would likely cause very severe internal injuries.

exactly this. My husband is a police officer, I'm a pediatric nurse. We've seen things (yes, relating to winter coat use too) that nobody should ever have to see. And internal decapitation is a thing, even if a child isn't ejected (and yes, they are- way too often). We extended rear face our littles, and they will both be in a 5 point hardness until they're over 80 pounds. They will probably be 11 at that point! 

 

It's not the STATISTICAL odds, it's the stakes. These are my children and they are my most precious investment. I have seen too many parents lose theirs over STUPID things relating to their car seats. 

 

And to respond to an earlier comment- someone said that others were getting a car seat check because they "weren't sure how to use their carseat." I think the stats on that are something like 80-90% of parents do not use their carseat in a safe manner. People who read their manuals and go get their seat checked are the SMART ones. They hopefully won't be the parents who I've seen who look back after losing their child and say "if only I'd known!"

[SKL]

Sounds like the info availability varies from place to place.

 

But then, there are people who really just don't go to any of those places.  I know I am not the norm, but I adopted my kids, so no OB/GYN involved, no hospital baby care classes or mandatory seat checks upon discharge.  I took my kids to a ped once, but he ticked me off so we didn't go back.  I did some research and eventually chose a GP who would take all three of us.

 

I'm a single working mom, and I was 41 when I first needed a car seat.  In that context, I hope it is understandable that I didn't have time or desire to subscribe to parenting magazines.  (I did have a lot of experience with kids, but it was a long time ago - before all this fancy car seat stuff.  I didn't need to be taught how to work with kids.)  I found a parenting forum but left it because it was so obnoxious.  Mostly I was overwhelmed with working full-time and taking care of two late-walking babies and having to take them everywhere I went with no help.  We didn't go to church, library, or rec center until they were a little older.

 

I think it's worth considering how to come up with a better communication method that will reach a higher % of parents nationwide.  A clear, concise, objective, accessible message along with web addresses for more information.  Maybe there are best practices in some states that could be copied nationwide.

 

I also agree that some standardization of car seat features would be helpful.

[heartlikealion]

exactly this. My husband is a police officer, I'm a pediatric nurse. We've seen things (yes, relating to winter coat use too) that nobody should ever have to see. And internal decapitation is a thing, even if a child isn't ejected (and yes, they are- way too often). We extended rear face our littles, and they will both be in a 5 point hardness until they're over 80 pounds. They will probably be 11 at that point! 

 

It's not the STATISTICAL odds, it's the stakes. These are my children and they are my most precious investment. I have seen too many parents lose theirs over STUPID things relating to their car seats. 

 

And to respond to an earlier comment- someone said that others were getting a car seat check because they "weren't sure how to use their carseat." I think the stats on that are something like 80-90% of parents do not use their carseat in a safe manner. People who read their manuals and go get their seat checked are the SMART ones. They hopefully won't be the parents who I've seen who look back after losing their child and say "if only I'd known!"

 

wait, what? I tried keeping my son in a 5pt harness for a long time, but he outgrew it. He is well below 80 lbs and he's 7 years old. The back of his high back booster Nautilus actually expired and his shoulders were too high for the 5pt harness. At that point we had no choice but to buy another high back booster which uses a car's seatbelt to go across, not a 5pt. I hear that 5pt vs seatbelt (once they get to a certain age/size) is debatable about which is better. There are pros and cons to both. Like the chest clip might keep the chest from moving with the rest of the body in a collision. So don't be too upset if you have to switch out of 5pt well before 80 lbs.

 

[arliemaria]

My children do wear their coats in the van.  My older two have LLBean thinsulate coats.  I am able to tighten their seats very tight.  I don't think their coats are bulky at all.  I think you could probably have a sweater bulkier than their coats.  My baby doesn't wear a coat because it would be nigh impossible to buckle her in her seat with one.  I have always just tucked blankets around her.  My sister-in-law is a NICU pediatrician.  I am sure if this were a serious problem she would have already warned me about it.   :)  I am going to be getting a convertible car seat for Vivi any day now.

 

 

ETA:  My son is not in a car seat any longer.  He is 6.5yo and is in a booster seat.

Edited January 21, 2016 by arliemaria

[AndyJoy]

wait, what? I tried keeping my son in a 5pt harness for a long time, but he outgrew it. He is well below 80 lbs and he's 7 years old. The back of his high back booster Nautilus actually expired and his shoulders were too high for the 5pt harness. At that point we had no choice but to buy another high back booster which uses a car's seatbelt to go across, not a 5pt. I hear that 5pt vs seatbelt (once they get to a certain age/size) is debatable about which is better. There are pros and cons to both. Like the chest clip might keep the chest from moving with the rest of the body in a collision. So don't be too upset if you have to switch out of 5pt well before 80 lbs.

 

Britax Frontier and Pioneer seats can be used with a harness up to 90 pounds. My 6-year-old is on the big side at 4'2" and 67 lbs and still has plenty of adjustment spots left. My 11-year-old step-nephew is tiny--only 4 inches taller and weighs the same, so it's possible a small kid would still fit. Edited January 21, 2016 by AndyJoy

[Carrie12345]

wait, what? I tried keeping my son in a 5pt harness for a long time, but he outgrew it. He is well below 80 lbs and he's 7 years old. The back of his high back booster Nautilus actually expired and his shoulders were too high for the 5pt harness. At that point we had no choice but to buy another high back booster which uses a car's seatbelt to go across, not a 5pt. I hear that 5pt vs seatbelt (once they get to a certain age/size) is debatable about which is better. There are pros and cons to both. Like the chest clip might keep the chest from moving with the rest of the body in a collision. So don't be too upset if you have to switch out of 5pt well before 80 lbs.

 

 

My 8.5yo's Nautilus harness only goes to 65lbs, but that was the highest we could get in our price range.  He's still under 65lbs, so I'm pleased with our purchase. (And it goes to 100lbs/49" as a booster.)  

 

My 5yo is the one who's large for his age and will likely outgrow his Marathon before I'd like, so we will be looking into higher weight 5-pt/boosters.

 

Suitable sizes are out there.  What would probably be MUCH more effective is getting the *prices down.  Even with better laws, when people are given the choice between $20 seat pads and $350 harnesses with side impact protection, more are going to choose the $20 pad whether they want to or they have to, financially.

[SLT]

wait, what? I tried keeping my son in a 5pt harness for a long time, but he outgrew it. He is well below 80 lbs and he's 7 years old. The back of his high back booster Nautilus actually expired and his shoulders were too high for the 5pt harness. At that point we had no choice but to buy another high back booster which uses a car's seatbelt to go across, not a 5pt. I hear that 5pt vs seatbelt (once they get to a certain age/size) is debatable about which is better. There are pros and cons to both. Like the chest clip might keep the chest from moving with the rest of the body in a collision. So don't be too upset if you have to switch out of 5pt well before 80 lbs.

 

I was going to reply thoroughly, but see that a few people already have. We have a diono seat that may be used as a harnessed seat until 90 pounds and a high backed booster to 120. I didn't weigh 90 pounds until high school and barely weighed more than that when I was married. I believe the Max height is 60" for the five point harness. I wasn't 60" until after 7th grade. Of course, when it's to appropriate for them to wear an adult belt, they will. They won't be in high school. But I will max out all limits as much as possible. Edited January 21, 2016 by SLT

[heartlikealion]

I see several of you mentioned weight limits on 5 pt harnesses. My child is under 65 lbs. It's not the weight limit that is the issue. It's the height. Child's shoulder was taller than red guide slots with headrest in highest position. And like I said the back of the seat expired earlier than the rest so we had to remove it and bought a HBB instead. 

 

I watched a video the other day with two car seats set on fire. It was to demonstrate that the after market minky covering (it was a cover that went over the entire seat, with straps laced through) was flammable way before the car seat material was. But what I got out of it was, "great, now if we cover our babies in blankets, there's a flammable item across their lap." At least you can rip the blanket away.

Edited January 21, 2016 by heartlikealion

[HomeAgain]

My youngest will probably not hit the weight limit on his seat.  LOL, he just hit the weight limit for rear facing on his convertible and he's definitely at the end of being able to use it forward facing!  It lasted us nearly six years, so I really can't complain. ;)

 

Every kid is going to require an individual decision.  You have to decide at what point they can sit in a booster, what point they can be out of a booster, and it's going to be different for every kid - and maybe every car.  My oldest had a booster backup for two years, until he was 11, because while he fit in my hatchback just fine, the deep bucket seats in other vehicles changed the belt fit.  I'm kind of excited to see how the Mifold is going to fit into the market this year because that's an easy back-up to fit in my glove box or under the passenger seat.

[ktgrok]

Thanks for this reminder to think about carseat safety. Because of this I flipped through the manual again for our seat (Diono Radian 100) and saw that we need to remove the safe stop load limiter now...says for kids under 40lbs and she just hit 41lbs. Also, I noted that they say to keep using the harness until at least 50lbs and 40inches, so we have a long while until she switches to using it as a booster instead. Which is fine by me. 

[heartlikealion]

My youngest will probably not hit the weight limit on his seat.  LOL, he just hit the weight limit for rear facing on his convertible and he's definitely at the end of being able to use it forward facing!  It lasted us nearly six years, so I really can't complain. ;)

 

Every kid is going to require an individual decision.  You have to decide at what point they can sit in a booster, what point they can be out of a booster, and it's going to be different for every kid - and maybe every car.  My oldest had a booster backup for two years, until he was 11, because while he fit in my hatchback just fine, the deep bucket seats in other vehicles changed the belt fit.  I'm kind of excited to see how the Mifold is going to fit into the market this year because that's an easy back-up to fit in my glove box or under the passenger seat.

 

The main thing the mifold has going for it is that it's compact and it's meant to adjust the seatbelt over the shoulder. The problem I fear is that it doesn't help with the rest of the 5 point test. There's a test to help determine if your child needs a booster. Of course, this test was designed with the thicker boosters in mind. I don't imagine the mifold would help adjust the belt across their thighs for example.

http://csftl.org/boosters-are-for-very-big-kids/

 

Thanks for this reminder to think about carseat safety. Because of this I flipped through the manual again for our seat (Diono Radian 100) and saw that we need to remove the safe stop load limiter now...says for kids under 40lbs and she just hit 41lbs. Also, I noted that they say to keep using the harness until at least 50lbs and 40inches, so we have a long while until she switches to using it as a booster instead. Which is fine by me. 

 

Glad these recent threads brought this to your attention. I don't remember ds' weight. I think he's 50 lbs.

Edited January 21, 2016 by heartlikealion

[HomeAgain]

The main thing the mifold has going for it is that it's compact and it's meant to adjust the seatbelt. The problem I fear is that it doesn't help with the rest of the 5 point test. There's a test to help determine if your child needs a booster. Of course, this test was designed with the thicker boosters in mind. Like where their knees land on the seat or whether or not the belt hits the thighs.

http://csftl.org/boosters-are-for-very-big-kids/

 

 

 

 

The 5pt test is to be out of a booster, not the fit of one.  The fit of one should mimic the 5pt test, but it's not going to help with the knees bending over the edge- and some of the boosters are odd.  I mean, with a Bubble Bum, it's short enough that even a 3yo's knees are over the edge of it, but it's not meant for children under 4.  The same child sitting in a KidFit would have a different experience.  Boosters are simply meant to be belt positioners, and for that the MiFold should be able to do its job in fitting it correctly on a child.  *should*  I have yet to see one for myself. :)

[Carrie12345]

I see several of you mentioned weight limits on 5 pt harnesses. My child is under 65 lbs. It's not the weight limit that is the issue. It's the height. Child's shoulder was taller than red guide slots with headrest in highest position. And like I said the back of the seat expired earlier than the rest so we had to remove it and bought a HBB instead. 

 

 

Well, I didn't mention ds's height because I don't know it off hand, lol.  I just know that there's still plenty of room.  Plus, leg length is much less of an issue than torso length, and we're leggy around here. So that wouldn't be fully useful anyway.

[heartlikealion]

The 5pt test is to be out of a booster, not the fit of one.  The fit of one should mimic the 5pt test, but it's not going to help with the knees bending over the edge- and some of the boosters are odd.  I mean, with a Bubble Bum, it's short enough that even a 3yo's knees are over the edge of it, but it's not meant for children under 4.  The same child sitting in a KidFit would have a different experience.  Boosters are simply meant to be belt positioners, and for that the MiFold should be able to do its job in fitting it correctly on a child.  *should*  I have yet to see one for myself. :)

 

Did you click the link? It does seem to make a difference in the example. A mifold wouldn't have a chance at helping with the knees. You are right that different boosters may help differently, but I still think the mifold falls short if we're comparing the run of the mill booster.

 

[heartlikealion]

Well, I didn't mention ds's height because I don't know it off hand, lol.  I just know that there's still plenty of room.  Plus, leg length is much less of an issue than torso length, and we're leggy around here. So that wouldn't be fully useful anyway.

 

I thought some of the examples cited were implying that my child didn't really outgrow his 5pt harness options because they still fit a __lb kid. Yes, for your own child you know best and leggy vs torso height is definitely important. I don't know ds' height off hand, but he is tall. Dh's side of the family is tall.

 

[SLT]

I thought some of the examples cited were implying that my child didn't really outgrow his 5pt harness options because they still fit a __lb kid. Yes, for your own child you know best and leggy vs torso height is definitely important. I don't know ds' height off hand, but he is tall. Dh's side of the family is tall.

 

Each response to you (there were three that I counted) all referenced their child's height or their seat's height limit. Unless there are any that I cannot see, we were all relaying our own children and our own seat in response to your disbelief that a child could actually fit in a 5 point harness that long. I purposely bought a seat with a long expiration date and a great range of heights/weights for rear facing, FF and HBB use. We spent $400 on each seat, so it better last us until they don't need a seat at all! :)

ETA: My tallest isn't even 40" yet so we have a lonnnnnnng way to go. 

Edited January 21, 2016 by SLT

[HomeAgain]

Did you click the link? It does seem to make a difference in the example. A mifold wouldn't have a chance at helping with the knees. You are right that different boosters may help differently, but I still think the mifold falls short if we're comparing the run of the mill booster.

 

 

I did.  Boosters are belt positioners.  That is their job, and as such, the Mifold looks able to do it in a non-conventional way.  It alters the fit of the shoulder belt and the lap belt to fit the child properly regardless of where their knees fall. While the knee test is part of being out of a booster (because it's a good height indicator), if I had a short legged kid who had a long torso, it would do him no good to be in a booster past the point of fitting comfortably and well in a standard seat belt.

[heartlikealion]

Britax Frontier and Pioneer seats can be used with a harness up to 90 pounds. My 6-year-old is on the big side at 4'2" and 67 lbs and still has plenty of adjustment spots left. My 11-year-old step-nephew is tiny--only 4 inches taller and weighs the same, so it's possible a small kid would still fit.

 

My 8.5yo's Nautilus harness only goes to 65lbs, but that was the highest we could get in our price range.  He's still under 65lbs, so I'm pleased with our purchase. (And it goes to 100lbs/49" as a booster.)  

 

My 5yo is the one who's large for his age and will likely outgrow his Marathon before I'd like, so we will be looking into higher weight 5-pt/boosters.

 

Suitable sizes are out there.  What would probably be MUCH more effective is getting the *prices down.  Even with better laws, when people are given the choice between $20 seat pads and $350 harnesses with side impact protection, more are going to choose the $20 pad whether they want to or they have to, financially.

 

I was going to reply thoroughly, but see that a few people already have. We have a diono seat that may be used as a harnessed seat until 90 pounds and a high backed booster to 120. I didn't weigh 90 pounds until high school and barely weighed more than that when I was married. I believe the Max height is 60" for the five point harness. I wasn't 60" until after 7th grade. Of course, when it's to appropriate for them to wear an adult belt, they will. They won't be in high school. But I will max out all limits as much as possible.

 

Each response to you (there were three that I counted) all referenced their child's height or their seat's height limit. Unless there are any that I cannot see, we were all relaying our own children and our own seat in response to your disbelief that a child could actually fit in a 5 point harness that long. I purposely bought a seat with a long expiration date and a great range of heights/weights for rear facing, FF and HBB use. We spent $400 on each seat, so it better last us until they don't need a seat at all! :)

ETA: My tallest isn't even 40" yet so we have a lonnnnnnng way to go. 

 

I put weight info in red and height in blue (most of the info, anyway). While there was mention of both in some replies, I took away the focus as being on weight. I bolded the first thing from each reply to show that the first thing people mentioned was weight. That is why I am saying I felt like people were trying to suggest that I just needed a seat with a higher weight limit. My comment way up about a kid outgrowing an 80lb seat early was not to suggest the kid would be too heavy, but rather that they might be too tall way before weight was a concern.

 

We did too, but I discovered later that the manufacturer date was 2 years prior to when we bought it in the store. It was purchased new, but sold well past the manufacturer date apparently.

[heartlikealion]

I did.  Boosters are belt positioners.  That is their job, and as such, the Mifold looks able to do it in a non-conventional way.  It alters the fit of the shoulder belt and the lap belt to fit the child properly regardless of where their knees fall. While the knee test is part of being out of a booster (because it's a good height indicator), if I had a short legged kid who had a long torso, it would do him no good to be in a booster past the point of fitting comfortably and well in a standard seat belt.

 

My bad, I didn't know the mifold worked on the lap portion :)

 

I realize a booster's real job is belt positioning, but I guess I was thinking if one model helped with more concerns than the other (say the knees), then one might be superior regardless of initial reason for being made. Just like one person might prefer the thick booster so their kid can see out of the window more easily. I was thinking safety-wise is the knee thing a deal breaker. I dunno.

Edited January 21, 2016 by heartlikealion

[HomeAgain]

While we're on the subject of weight - make sure you're not using the Lower Anchors past 40-ishlbs.  :)  The rules changed to allow LATCH up to 65lbs total (kid and seat), and after that you need to switch to a seatbelt install.

 

NOTE: Totally different for boosters, where the LATCH only holds the seat and not the child.  Still good on that!

[heartlikealion]

While we're on the subject of weight - make sure you're not using the Lower Anchors past 40-ishlbs.  :)  The rules changed to allow LATCH up to 65lbs total (kid and seat), and after that you need to switch to a seatbelt install.

 

NOTE: Totally different for boosters, where the LATCH only holds the seat and not the child.  Still good on that!

 

Yes, that's another annoying thing about car seats. Parents are expected to remember to do a switch at some point. I don't have a LATCH option on my HBB but I try to remember to buckle the seat in when ds is not in the car so I don't have a potential flying object.

 

[HomeAgain]

My bad, I didn't know the mifold worked on the lap portion :)

 

 

It looks pretty cool!  The belt guides slide out from the sides to adjust for the lap belt fit, and then it has a ribbon shoulder belt guide.  It wouldn't be my first choice of seat for a kid to ride in all the time, but since I am completely terrified of sending a booster through checked baggage, I'd love to have it for travel, the occasional extra kid in my car, or have available to people (like emergency foster care) who may not always have the need for a bulkier seat.  But I'm waiting to see how it pans out first.  They have pushed back completion date already.

[SLT]

 

 

We did too, but I discovered later that the manufacturer date was 2 years prior to when we bought it in the store. It was purchased new, but sold well past the manufacturer date apparently.

Yep! I checked that in the store when we purchased. Both of ours were manufactured just one month prior to purchase- they will both not expire as a HBB until our children are 12. 

Edited January 21, 2016 by SLT

[Seeking Squirrels]

wait, what? I tried keeping my son in a 5pt harness for a long time, but he outgrew it. He is well below 80 lbs and he's 7 years old. The back of his high back booster Nautilus actually expired and his shoulders were too high for the 5pt harness. At that point we had no choice but to buy another high back booster which uses a car's seatbelt to go across, not a 5pt. I hear that 5pt vs seatbelt (once they get to a certain age/size) is debatable about which is better. There are pros and cons to both. Like the chest clip might keep the chest from moving with the rest of the body in a collision. So don't be too upset if you have to switch out of 5pt well before 80 lbs.

 

Once a child fits a booster properly AND is mature enough to stay sitting properly the whole ride, there is no evidence of one being safER than the other. That's the point we stress. Both are safe options at that point and either may carry it's own risks and benefits. One possible risk of continued harness use is force on the neck because of the entire body being restrained while a regular seat belt is going to allow some movement of the torso along with the head and neck. But it's all conjecture at this point. With the information we have available, we can't say one is safer than the other.

 

I prefer to see kids as close to 6 as possible before moving to a booster because that is when most are mature enough to sit properly and stay that way. Some may be okay before that and some may not be ready for some time after. My oldest was harnessed until just before turning 7. She has sensory issues and was not at all ready at 6. But after months of OT, she was able to go into a booster. That was about 9 months ago and now we are having issues with her sitting like she should. She wants to lean over to bug sister or try to pick something up off the floor. She has yet to completely move out of her seat, but she's reaching and leaning. So we are considering putting the harness back in her seat, at least for a while. Sitting in position is just as important as fitting by height and weight.

 

The 5pt test is to be out of a booster, not the fit of one.  The fit of one should mimic the 5pt test, but it's not going to help with the knees bending over the edge- and some of the boosters are odd.  I mean, with a Bubble Bum, it's short enough that even a 3yo's knees are over the edge of it, but it's not meant for children under 4.  The same child sitting in a KidFit would have a different experience.  Boosters are simply meant to be belt positioners, and for that the MiFold should be able to do its job in fitting it correctly on a child.  *should*  I have yet to see one for myself. :)

A big part of knees being able to bend at the edge is because if they don't, it will encourage the child to slouch. I've looked into the mifold a little, but not enough to see if it helps kids legs bend even just a little. If they don't bend at all, then I could see it not being a good fit because many kids will unintentionally slouch to reach the edge and bend their knees. It's not comfortable to sit with legs straight out.

[Carrie12345]

 

 

I prefer to see kids as close to 6 as possible before moving to a booster because that is when most are mature enough to sit properly and stay that way. Some may be okay before that and some may not be ready for some time after. My oldest was harnessed until just before turning 7. She has sensory issues and was not at all ready at 6. But after months of OT, she was able to go into a booster. That was about 9 months ago and now we are having issues with her sitting like she should. She wants to lean over to bug sister or try to pick something up off the floor. She has yet to completely move out of her seat, but she's reaching and leaning. So we are considering putting the harness back in her seat, at least for a while. Sitting in position is just as important as fitting by height and weight.

 

 

 

One of the big reasons we're sticking with harnesses as long as possible is that we have some serious car sleepers, and take quite a few 1-2hr road trips.  (Rarely longer than that, or even I would fall asleep!)  My now-12yo used to slump over even in a highback, molded booster at 7 and 8 years old, judging by the pictures I have that I used to think were funny and now scare the poo out of me!  Thank goodness we were never in a wreck.

[AndyJoy]

I put weight info in red and height in blue (most of the info, anyway). While there was mention of both in some replies, I took away the focus as being on weight. I bolded the first thing from each reply to show that the first thing people mentioned was weight. That is why I am saying I felt like people were trying to suggest that I just needed a seat with a higher weight limit. My comment way up about a kid outgrowing an 80lb seat early was not to suggest the kid would be too heavy, but rather that they might be too tall way before weight was a concern.

 

We did too, but I discovered later that the manufacturer date was 2 years prior to when we bought it in the store. It was purchased new, but sold well past the manufacturer date apparently.

I wasn't disputing that your kid (or others) might outgrow specific seats by height before weight. I was just making people aware that there are options for tall kids or older small kids too. I don't know how high my son's seat goes, but I know he definitely has more height adjustment left. An 8 1/2-year-old at the 25th percentile would be the same height as him. Edited January 21, 2016 by AndyJoy

[heartlikealion]

I wasn't disputing that your kid (or others) might outgrow specific seats by height before weight. I was just making people aware that there are options for tall kids or older small kids too. I don't know how high my son's seat goes, but I know he definitely has more height adjustment left. An 8 1/2-year-old at the 25th percentile would be the same height as him.

 

I see. Well, I feel like it's often one or the other. A tall kid or an older kid. But it really depends on definition of older lol. It sounds like your seats have more leeway, though. I did google earlier to see what seats out there were best for height/harness and this old thread (http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=91383) mentioned that head rest adjustment on the last notch is for booster mode only, not harness. Can't say how accurate that is. I noticed some seats specify "harness mode height" though, so that is probably helpful for buying (I would hope that's accurate).

 

Anyway, it is nice to know that at least one or two exist where it is the preferred option for a given family. I once saw a monster pillow someone used in their child's lap (child just held onto it, it wasn't secured to anything) that prevented them from slouching too much. Like this http://www.amibamonsters.com/assets/images/TravelBanner.jpg. Not sure if there are issues with that for car seat safety but I thought it was an interesting idea.

 

[skimomma]

Speaking of car sleepers.....

 

What do you do about this on long trips?  Dd is 12 and we do a lot of long car trips.  She sometimes falls asleep and slumps over so that the belt is no longer properly positioned.  I wake her but usually she falls back asleep and it happens again.  She was in a booster until age 11 but is now really too big for any of them.  She is nearly adult sized.

[heartlikealion]

Speaking of car sleepers.....

 

What do you do about this on long trips?  Dd is 12 and we do a lot of long car trips.  She sometimes falls asleep and slumps over so that the belt is no longer properly positioned.  I wake her but usually she falls back asleep and it happens again.  She was in a booster until age 11 but is now really too big for any of them.  She is nearly adult sized.

 

I don't know if it would help, but some cars have a belt adjuster as part of the vehicle. I didn't even know ours existed til I saw it in the manual. It is tucked into the side of the seat (there's a little pocket). If they slouch a lot I'm sure it isn't super effective, though. I sometimes still have to wake ds to get him to straighten up in his high back (if he's leaning forward instead of into the wing on the headpiece).

 

[Χά�ων]

wait, what? I tried keeping my son in a 5pt harness for a long time, but he outgrew it. He is well below 80 lbs and he's 7 years old. The back of his high back booster Nautilus actually expired and his shoulders were too high for the 5pt harness. At that point we had no choice but to buy another high back booster which uses a car's seatbelt to go across, not a 5pt. I hear that 5pt vs seatbelt (once they get to a certain age/size) is debatable about which is better. There are pros and cons to both. Like the chest clip might keep the chest from moving with the rest of the body in a collision. So don't be too upset if you have to switch out of 5pt well before 80 lbs.

 

There are high weight 5pt harness seats. My son had one that went up to 105lbs or was it 110? Either way, it went to over 100lbs. It was expensive, but worth it. I will probably do it again.

[heartlikealion]

There are high weight 5pt harness seats. My son had one that went up to 105lbs or was it 110? Either way, it went to over 100lbs. It was expensive, but worth it. I will probably do it again.

 

Yeah, several have high numbers for weight. The weight was never the issue, though.