As a homeschooler, how can I help revitalize public schools?

[Spy Car]

Why? Lots of people do outsource subjects that they don't know well. And flexibility is a strength of homeschooling. Is his statement a broad generalization? Sure. And pointing that out is appropriate. But the most clueless post? I think that is a huge overstatement. And rude.

Because it is aimed at Regentrude, who (were I in the position to hire a top-flight tutor) would be a dream-come-true choice.

 

I don't know what sort of program it was that her daughter got into for college, after doing AoPS at home, but I'm sure it must be something quite extraordinary, with very gifted and unusually well-educated students if her daughter felt "behind."

 

I think telling Regentrude that she out to outsource math is clueless (x1000).

 

The rest of the post was ideological nonsense, especially in the context of Regentrude's post, which supported the idea that there are at least some students (her daughter's college classmates) that are succeeding in a dramatic fashion, and are even beyond the expectations of one of the WTMs intellectual heavy-weights.

 

Bill

Edited December 2, 2015 by Spy Car

[Jean in Newcastle]

Because it is aimed at Regentrude, who (were I in the position to hire a top-flight tutor) would be a dream-come-true choice.

 

I don't know what sort of program it was that her daughter got into for college, after doing AoPS at home, but I'm sure it must be something quite extraordinary, with very gifted and unusually well-educated students if her daughter felt "behind."

 

I think telling Regentrude that she out to outsource math is clueless (x1000).

 

The rest of the post was ildeogical on nonsense, especially in the context of Regentrude post which supported the idea that there are at least some students (her daughte's college classmates) that are succeeding in a dramatic fashion, and are even beyond the expectations of one of the WTMs intellectual heavy-weights.

 

Bill

 

But, he doesn't quote Regentrude, so why would you think it's targeted to her?  And he's a new poster with only 50 some posts, so how should he know who Regentrude is?  And Regentrude wasn't even saying that her dd was struggling - she said that she ended up in a study group with kids who were at a very high level in math - not in the remedial class, or did I read that wrong?  I figured it was a general post giving the general advice that is often given on the high school forum - "if necessary, outsource".  I felt like it was a bit outside the point for this conversation, but not an egregious sin. 

 

I agree, btw, that there are some top notch schools out there that do much better than I can do.  But I also agree that homeschooling by it's very nature is more flexible and individualized or at least can be.  I just don't think that flexibility and individualization trumps everything else out there all the time. 

[regentrude]

Because it is aimed at Regentrude, who (were I in the position to hire a top-flight tutor) would be a dream-come-true choice.

I think telling Regentrude that she out to outsource math is clueless (x1000).

The rest of the post was ildeogical on nonsense, especially in the context of Regentrude post which supported the idea that there are at least some students (her daughte's college classmates) that are succeeding in a dramatic fashion, and are even beyond the expectations of one of the WTMs intellectual heavy-weights.

 

Thanks, Bill, I feel flattered.

 

But yes, the idea that I should outsource math is rather comical. DH and I would be perfectly capable to teaching differential equations if that had been the goal (and be hard pressed to find a more qualified tutor). Instead, we decided that multivariable calc is sufficient for high school and rather had her take five semesters of French at the university and two upper level literature classes.

 

The point was not that I could not teach more math, but that there are schools who offer such coursework.

 

 

 

I don't know what sort of program it was that her daughter got into for college, after doing AoPS at home, but I'm sure it must be something quite extraordinary, with very gifted and unusually well-educated students if her daughter felt "behind."

 

Top college (8% acceptance rate); in this college, not the regular calc based intro physics, but the honors intro physics for students whose high school education included calculus based physics.

So, a selection of the top physics students at a school that only accepts top students anyway.

We gave one of her homework problems from this class to our graduate students on the qualifying exam; only one student was able to solve it.

[vonfirmath]

When our kids got to the age of starting school, and I couldn't homeschool because my job is still necessary to keep the roof over our heads. And we aren't even in the best district in the area (or even the best school in our district) -- my dad comforted me with very wise advice. That MY kids were not going to have a problem with school because no matter where they went, they would have parents who were involved in their education, and as long as we stay involved and did not just let the school do their thing on their own.  I can remember this growing up. I was in public schools. But my parents came in to find out how  we were doing.  They looked at our homework as well as our report cards and were on top of talking to teachers when things changed. And they moved us at the point when the school we would have attended was considered too dangerous (And too easy).

 

I see that at our schools.  Our PTO president is a stay at home mom whose kids are all in school. So she's told me about her favorite part -- she has 3 kids who she goes in and reads 10 minutes each with them. Because their parents do not read with them. They are happy because getting their pages signed off that they had read that time means they are eligible to attend Lunch Bunch. And they are getting the advantages of that extra time reading.  For context, at the same time, my son was regularly reading 25 minutes a day at home. And more time on the weekend.  That cumulative time reading adds up quick to differences in the classroom.  And I can't help but think that parents that will not sign their kids reading log are also not supporting other school endeavors as well.  Or maybe they are supporting to the best of their ability, and there are language or cultural differences that are standing in the way? I don't know. It was great to hear about these kids who are so excited to see her when she comes to the school every day to read with them.

[RoundAbout]

Personally, I think the best thing homeschoolers can do to improve education in this country is to achieve great results themselves at home, thereby serving as a "demonstration effect." 

 

Excellence begets competition for excellence. 

 

 

 

Thank you.  I personally love this message and never get tired of hearing it.  Like all homeschoolers I get into ruts sometimes, but for the most part I'm constantly looking to "up my game" so to speak and create a really excellent education for my son. I've recently started to be more public with Facebook and my friends about what our homeschooling looks like in part because I'm excited and in part because I've noticed a lot of them are very curious about it.  Not in a bragging sort of way, but I really used to hide our homeschool until my husband said something recently like "maybe you should let people know what's possible."  

 

We just got back from a two month road trip to National Parks where my son was hiking, attending ranger talks every night, birdwatching, stargazing, etc.  Last year he did a 350 mile bike-packing trip with DH. He's in AOPS pre-algebra.  He reads a chapter book every few days and loves grammar.  He has memorized dozens of classic poems.  He's starting to learn Italian and we're saving for a trip to Italy.  He still has plenty of time to play.  I spend a lot of time picking out and reading aloud quality literature.  I'm proud of what we do and I don't ever want to get complacent about it.

 

Interestingly we tried public school for 6 months.  It was a gifted magnet school and supposedly the best public school in the city. Great parents, great teachers, but a "meh" curriculum and way too overcrowded and no playground.  It wasn't a bad school, but just not a great fit for us.  The teachers were supportive telling me "clearly he doesn't need the academics here" and "bring him by for a recess pass any time!"  The parents have really want to pick my brain for ideas to after school and deal with the not so great middle school (many have told me they are thinking about homeschooling middle school).  My best friend in another state, and a staunch pro-public schooler, is also thinking of taking a middle school sabbatical to travel with her daughter.  I don't think she would have thad the confidence to do it except by seeing how it works for us.  

 

So yes, I agree that leading by example is perhaps the best (and maybe only) way to really help improve the system as a whole.  

[MBM]

I agree with Bill. There are definitely some excellent schools in the US, even public schools, that offer all kinds of opportunities for a wide variety of students. What these schools have in common is the desire to give their students the best opportunities while being sensitive to what the individual student needs and is experiencing. At my youngest's public high school, the administrators, teachers, parents and outside professionals all work together to try to help all students become their best. They concern themselves with much more than academics but for students who need more challenging classes or material, the school makes sure it's available. For us, it was very nice to not have to fight for that.

 

[shawthorne44]

I think homeschoolers can do one thing that might eventually improve public schools.  Do a fabulous job with your kids.  If enough homeschoolers do an amazing job, then people who can't homeschool will look to homeschools to see what aspects could be incorporated into their public schools.  Like how 'people' started to look into why Singapore kids were doing so good at math.  

[daijobu]

Yes, she felt behind in math compared to her friends. It was definitely an issue last year.

(But then, it is a top school, and it was the honors class, so a double selection.)

 

 

So what are the relative merits of rushing into advanced math classes (diff eq's, linear algebra, etc.) versus delving deeply into "lower level" math problem solving that you might get with AoPS?   

 

Or are these traits not mutually exclusive and these advanced math students also extremely good at problem solving?  (Argh.)

 

I ask, because we are spending a great deal time struggling through the Intermediate Algebra problems at a depth far beyond what I had in high school.  Is this a good use of our time?  It will certainly help in the AMCs, but is our time better spent advancing through this stuff quickly and moving on to higher levels of math?  

[Mrs Twain]

So what are the relative merits of rushing into advanced math classes (diff eq's, linear algebra, etc.) versus delving deeply into "lower level" math problem solving that you might get with AoPS?

 

Or are these traits not mutually exclusive and these advanced math students also extremely good at problem solving? (Argh.)

 

I ask, because we are spending a great deal time struggling through the Intermediate Algebra problems at a depth far beyond what I had in high school. Is this a good use of our time? It will certainly help in the AMCs, but is our time better spent advancing through this stuff quickly and moving on to higher levels of math?

I wish you would start a new thread with this question. Mr. Twain and I have spent a couple of years discussing this question and would be interested to hear the opinions of others.

[regentrude]

So what are the relative merits of rushing into advanced math classes (diff eq's, linear algebra, etc.) versus delving deeply into "lower level" math problem solving that you might get with AoPS?   

 

Or are these traits not mutually exclusive and these advanced math students also extremely good at problem solving?  (Argh.)

 

I ask, because we are spending a great deal time struggling through the Intermediate Algebra problems at a depth far beyond what I had in high school.  Is this a good use of our time?  It will certainly help in the AMCs, but is our time better spent advancing through this stuff quickly and moving on to higher levels of math?  

 

Who talked about "rushing"? There is absolutely no benefit in rushing in math.

 

Working on problem solving skills is most definitely a good use of time. A thorough mastery of math, especially the basics, is crucial for any further math success. I cannot see any reason why it should be beneficial to cover math superficially just to move quickly and get to higher level math. All skills developed through the problem solving practice in AoPS will be beneficial later on. Students can always take the higher level math in college.

 

ETA: From what I hear, I am quite certain that the schools I mentioned did not rush their students into those courses without proper foundation. They merely offered advanced students the opportunity for this classwork during their high school years.

I do not consider this necessary (and we didn't, in our homeschool). I was merely pointing out that there exist excellent schools.

Edited December 2, 2015 by regentrude

[Dmmetler]

If any school does math (or whatever) better than you do, why couldn't you just outsource that by hiring a top-notch tutor? Then you'd have the added benefit of one-to-one teaching. Yes, it costs, but surely worth it, right? And not nearly as much as is being spent per student by public schools. The flexibility of homeschooling will always beat what is on offer in public school because public schools are large institutions run by the government designed to service thousands and thousands. It's simply a fundamental apples vs. oranges situation.

 

Ultimately, though, you have to make tradeoffs.

 

There is one area where I am 99.9% sure my DD's education exceeds that of the PS system just about anywhere. And that's in the area of field biology and herpetology. Most schools don't offer regular field work with doctoral students and PhDs, being involved in published research in elementary school, or attending professional conferences. Most schools don't use professional journals and research notes as their primary science textbook. Most students don't get writing instruction from an editor of a major professional journal for their non-fiction reports in 4th and 5th grade, and so on.

 

But the cost is that DD's education, in other areas, is almost certainly inferior to the best out there available for homeschoolers. For example, she's doing Latin with me, not with something like the Lukeion project, even though I'm sure she'd get better instruction from Lukeion, due to time. She's doing AoPS with me, not the AoPS online classes, again, due to time and flexibility. Her history and literature are pared down to "read and talk about it", because she spends so much time and we spend so much money on her science interests. Travel, professional memberships, journal subscriptions, all of it takes money. And that's money that can't be spent on the best tutor money can buy.

 

And I have little doubt that an excellent, or even a very good, B&M school would offer a more well rounded course of instruction that would beat hers in some areas, too. Having a passionate person who loves history and spent years reading primary sources and discussing them with passionate people teach history would be better than discussing it with parents who don't have a professional background in the field, and having a roomful of other people to share their views would be better than having one or two. The same is true in every other area. And most schools will have at least a handful of those passionate teachers. A good school has many of them.

 

For DD, right now, compared to the options available locally, I'm content with our choices. But I'm well aware that it's not the ideal path-only the one we've chosen.

[Arcadia]

Advocate for a better K-5 education locally. Kids need a strong LA and math foundation and parents need teachers who keep them in the loop through useful class newsletters. The ones my kid's public school teachers sent out were useful.

 

I ask, because we are spending a great deal time struggling through the Intermediate Algebra problems at a depth far beyond what I had in high school. Is this a good use of our time? It will certainly help in the AMCs, but is our time better spent advancing through this stuff quickly and moving on to higher levels of math?

This is a YMMV question. For my hubby who swings applied math/science from young and have a tough time problem solving, it would just be a demoralising exercise and a hugh time sucker.

For my oldest, I need the time sucking effect of going deep and wide to hold him from starting calculus formally too early. He isn't going to be dwmoralised and he is not going to be affected by being "held back". He just started aops precalc.

 

Something interesting that my hubby said which I did not think about. He said his hardest science subject in high school was chemistry out of Bio/Phy/Chem. For biology he could memorise for exams, for physics it was easy to visualise, chem was the most abstract.

For me biology exam was hardest because of the memorising, I was too lazy to do so. physics and chemistry just require me to think on exam day.

 

At the end of the day you have to weigh what your child wants vs what you hope to achieve. My high school math was crazy, it made engineering calculus easy. My hubby compensated by working harder to get the same good grades as me. While I play billiards for leisure he studied.

Advocate for a better K-5 education locally. Kids need a strong LA and math foundation and parents need teachers who keep them in the loop through useful class newsletters. The ones my kid's public school teachers sent out were useful.

 

 

This seems to be the conventional wisdom, but I'm not so sure.  Growing up, we had optional half-day K.  Now full-day K is not only expected, so is Pre-K, and I'm sure pre-pre-pre-K is coming soon.

 

However, from talking to friends and neighbors, things seem to go downhill fast in middle school, regardless of how much preschool prep has happened.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think the conversation has veered from the OP's initial question so I'm going to focus more on the evolved idea of whether homeschooling is better than all public school offerings and if it matters.  In our case, as others have said, it has better in some areas and adequate in others.  I have had a bit of angst as my highly gifted (as tested) son is no where near his potential in his studies and it hasn't been from a lack of desire for me to provide that for him.  It's because his emotional needs as an aspie got in the way.  But by homeschooling I was able to make his emotional wellbeing a priority.  His potential does not stop at age 18.  With a strong emotional foundation and an adequate academic foundation I have no doubt he can still soar.  Anyway, what I'm saying is that any school - homeschool or public school - has to teach the students they've got.  And any parents have to parent the children they've got. 

[daijobu]

Who talked about "rushing"? There is absolutely no benefit in rushing in math.

 

Working on problem solving skills is most definitely a good use of time. A thorough mastery of math, especially the basics, is crucial for any further math success. I cannot see any reason why it should be beneficial to cover math superficially just to move quickly and get to higher level math. All skills developed through the problem solving practice in AoPS will be beneficial later on. Students can always take the higher level math in college.

 

ETA: From what I hear, I am quite certain that the schools I mentioned did not rush their students into those courses without proper foundation. They merely offered advanced students the opportunity for this classwork during their high school years.

I do not consider this necessary (and we didn't, in our homeschool). I was merely pointing out that there exist excellent schools.

 

Sorry, I debated using the word "rushing" and I see that I should not have used that word.  I probably should have written "accelerated" or something less emotional.  

 

I would argue that the amount of detail spent on polynomials in the AoPS book is... a lot for most students.  In high school, I learned some basic factoring techniques (difference of cubes), synthetic division, and not much more than that.  My dd now knows way more about polynomials than I ever did, but I wonder at what cost?  There's the opportunity cost of time spent on other subjects, as you discovered.  Likewise, if one is using a more superficial curriculum and moving on to advanced subjects more quickly, there is the opportunity cost of not doing AoPS and delving more deeply into these subjects.  

 

Or maybe these kids are did AoPS and then continued on with college math?  

 

I don't consider it "rushing" if we covered polynomials at a more superficial level, unless you are determined to eek out more AMC points.  But maybe her deep knowledge of polynomials and inequalities will serve her well in college?  

 

Looking ahead to the precalculus book, there is a great amount of detailed coverage of trigonometry.  Many many laws and theorems that I never covered, but I had enough to prepare me for a 5 on calculus BC.  So I wonder if time spent on all that extra trig is well spent?   (This is all probably a moot point since dd is bound and determined to eek out every last AMC point.)

[Arcadia]

However, from talking to friends and neighbors, things seem to go downhill fast in middle school, regardless of how much preschool prep has happened.

Bullying and delinquency are big issues in middle school locally. My neighborhood had kids stealing parcels from front doors, vandalizing houses and cars nearest to the schools.

Having a police car daily at dismissal time help a little but not sure how anyone can help in general.

[vonfirmath]

Bullying and delinquency are big issues in middle school locally. My neighborhood had kids stealing parcels from front doors, vandalizing houses and cars nearest to the schools.

Having a police car daily at dismissal time help a little but not sure how anyone can help in general.

 

Some of this I wonder -- in elementary school here they have afterschool care. There is no such thing at the middle school level.

Looking ahead, I wonder if my son is going to be ready to be on his own in 6th grade? That seems SO young. But the choices are not good otherwise. But I know that kids left unsupervised before they are ready is when they get into the most mischief.

[regentrude]

Sorry, I debated using the word "rushing" and I see that I should not have used that word.  I probably should have written "accelerated" or something less emotional.  

 

I would argue that the amount of detail spent on polynomials in the AoPS book is... a lot for most students.  In high school, I learned some basic factoring techniques (difference of cubes), synthetic division, and not much more than that.  My dd now knows way more about polynomials than I ever did, but I wonder at what cost?  There's the opportunity cost of time spent on other subjects, as you discovered.  Likewise, if one is using a more superficial curriculum and moving on to advanced subjects more quickly, there is the opportunity cost of not doing AoPS and delving more deeply into these subjects.  

 

Or maybe these kids are did AoPS and then continued on with college math?  

 

I don't consider it "rushing" if we covered polynomials at a more superficial level, unless you are determined to eek out more AMC points.  But maybe her deep knowledge of polynomials and inequalities will serve her well in college?  

 

Looking ahead to the precalculus book, there is a great amount of detailed coverage of trigonometry.  Many many laws and theorems that I never covered, but I had enough to prepare me for a 5 on calculus BC.  So I wonder if time spent on all that extra trig is well spent?   (This is all probably a moot point since dd is bound and determined to eek out every last AMC point.)

 

The answers depend on your student's goal with math, on her level, and on her love for math.

Some students will solve every.single.problem in AoPS and spend hours on the challenge problems, enjoying the process, and feel that this work directly furthers their goals.

Other students may use the AoPS style and method to cover the material more thoroughly than a traditional school textbook, but select from the exercises and only do selected challenge problems - they may still end up very well prepared for subsequent math courses.

 

I would not consider it "rushing" to omit certain problems and sections based on the judgment that these topics will not be directly beneficial for the student's further math plans.

I reserve the right to make these kinds of decisions. We had very clear goals for DD's math education, and that led us to make the deliberate decision to omit certain topics from the Intermediate Algebra and Precalculus texts. Not because we had to "rush to calculus", but because calculus was a necessary tool for DD to progress in her physics studies, and other topics could safely be deferred to later math courses.

And with DS, who envisions a career related to sports and will most likely not major in any STEM related field, I am perfectly content to go slowly, select problems, and cut out topics and still have a rigorous precalculus and calculus course, definitely enough for his goals, and definitely enough to satisfy my graduation requirements.

 

There is no one-size-fits all approach. I just do not see the point of "rushing" for acceleration's sake, but there may be very good reasons for deviating from the scope and sequence of any particular textbook, even AoPS. As much as I love and admire the books, they are tools, and not a law to which I am forced to adhere. I'm rebellious like that ;-)

 

ETA: I agree that the coverage of polynomials in Intermediate Algebra is almost excessive. We were rather ruthless there. DH and I are both theoretical physicists and use advanced math on a daily basis, but never heard of, or used, many of  the things. OTOH, I did not feel the same about the trigonometry in Precalculus!  This is a thorough treatment, but has lots of applications and the concepts are frequently used.

Edited December 2, 2015 by regentrude

[wapiti]

Likewise, if one is using a more superficial curriculum and moving on to advanced subjects more quickly, there is the opportunity cost of not doing AoPS and delving more deeply into these subjects.

 

FWIW, I think it's possible to find your uniquely-optimal balance between depth and acceleration.

 

In the school environment, depth is harder to come by in the regular classrooms, though most AoPS students are afterschoolers and school participation in the AMCs offers another opportunity for exposure to depth.

 

As we are about to change charter schools, we will see where our middle schoolers land in the math boxes offered (if the placement tests go well, ds will go from being the only geometry student in his middle school to three classes full), and this is where more acceleration would have come in handy.  If they stay at this relatively new school for high school, there are community college instructors on staff who teach higher-level math courses at the high school though it's hard to guess what the quality (depth, I guess) is like.  This particular school is sponsored in part by some well-known high tech companies.  Today on a tour, I heard mention of problem solving, so we're hopeful... It seems unlikely that the math at this new school is any more superficial than their current situation.

Edited December 2, 2015 by wapiti

[daijobu]

 

I reserve the right to make these kinds of decisions. We had very clear goals for DD's math education, and that led us to make the deliberate decision to omit certain topics from the Intermediate Algebra and Precalculus texts. 

 

 

Would you share what you skipped in Int. Algebra and Precalc?  

[daijobu]

I wish you would start a new thread with this question. 

Could you start it?  I've just about spent my writing skills for today.  

[Arcadia]

But I know that kids left unsupervised before they are ready is when they get into the most mischief.

The local libraries have step up on afterschool activities for middle school kids. The teen centers run by the park and recreations dept have afterschool care for teens. The YMCA too but the Y is not on the middle school bus route as it is outside the school district boundaries so someone need to transport the kids.

 

What I find helpful was to have after school clubs opened to the whole community. My kids chinese class is an afterschool class at a public school. The organisation is a non-profit and fees are low. Parents/caregivers stay around and chat while kids are in class. Builds a sense of community in a way.

 

ETA:

Some parents help for after school recreational basketball so that helps. Boy scouts is afterschool here, hosted at schools and open to the community. Some schools have afterschool coding clubs run mainly by parent volunteers.

 

Some school principals are more welcoming of volunteers than others. Having a community garden on school grounds help too. Kids just volunteer after school.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Arcadia

[regentrude]

Would you share what you skipped in Int. Algebra and Precalc?  

 

I wrote a detailed post about this back then, and I remember that Kathy in Richmond also posted in that thread, but I have spent a long time searching for it and can't find it. Can anybody help?

 

[wapiti]

Would you share what you skipped in Int. Algebra and Precalc?  

 

Maybe this post from Kathy would help

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/361425-aops-or-college-algebratrig/?p=3744226

Bullying and delinquency are big issues in middle school locally. My neighborhood had kids stealing parcels from front doors, vandalizing houses and cars nearest to the schools.

Having a police car daily at dismissal time help a little but not sure how anyone can help in general.

 

I'm not entirely sure how anyone could help.  But, I'm sure that adding more Pre-K or K4 or PrePrePreK surely isn't going to help this problem.  And, that's all we hear about.  I've observed that local public schools have insanely high demands on the elementary school kids, and insanely low demands on the middle schoolers.  Perhaps if the middle schoolers were challenged more, there'd be less of a problem with delinquency.  This is an age where they can start doing very interesting science projects, or art or drama or sports or ...  Instead, the middle schoolers are just warehoused. 

Edited December 2, 2015 by GGardner

[regentrude]

 I've observed that local public schools have insanely high demands on the elementary school kids, and insanely low demands on the middle schoolers.  Perhaps if the middle schoolers were challenged more, there'd be less of a problem with delinquency.  This is an age where they can start doing very interesting science projects, or art or drama or sports or ...  Instead, the middle schoolers are just warehoused. 

 

I think this is true not just for your local schools, but for the school system in this country in general: incredible push for early academics, then virtually no progress from grades 5 through 7. Elsewhere in the world, they start later and more slowly (back home, 1st graders are done with school by 11am or noon), and expectations increase around grade 5. The system here makes no sense.

 

[Carol in Cal.]

 

Something interesting that my hubby said which I did not think about. He said his hardest science subject in high school was chemistry out of Bio/Phy/Chem. For biology he could memorise for exams, for physics it was easy to visualise, chem was the most abstract.

For me biology exam was hardest because of the memorising, I was too lazy to do so. physics and chemistry just require me to think on exam day.

 

This is interesting.

 

To me bio was hard because it was so illogical and so focussed on memorization.  Also it was very visual--we had a lab final as well as a written one, and had to identify things under microscopes visually.  I am still amazed that I passed that one.

 

Physics was hard for me because it involved things in motion, and I wasn't the least bit mechanical; and electricity which I knew absolutely nothing whatsoever about.  Plus it was all macroscopic, which I hate.  So it was completely counterintuitive until I got to quantum mechanics which made beautiful sense.  Of course, it didn't help that I didn't take it until college, and then had to take the hardest track of it. so there were 4 quarters to slog through before quantum mechanics.  Ugh.

 

Chemistry, though, was brilliantly logical.  All I had to do was remember the logic patterns, and imagine the atoms and molecules individual and I could 'see' what was going on.  

[zarabellesmom]

The local libraries have step up on afterschool activities for middle school kids. The teen centers run by the park and recreations dept have afterschool care for teens. The YMCA too but the Y is not on the middle school bus route as it is outside the school district boundaries so someone need to transport the kids.

 

What I find helpful was to have after school clubs opened to the whole community. My kids chinese class is an afterschool class at a public school. The organisation is a non-profit and fees are low. Parents/caregivers stay around and chat while kids are in class. Builds a sense of community in a way.

 

ETA:

Some parents help for after school recreational basketball so that helps. Boy scouts is afterschool here, hosted at schools and open to the community. Some schools have afterschool coding clubs run mainly by parent volunteers.

 

Some school principals are more welcoming of volunteers than others. Having a community garden on school grounds help too. Kids just volunteer after school.

 

I'm glad to hear that your area schools are welcoming community classes for student participation.  Two years ago I was a troop leader for Girl Scouts and every public school in the area wanted to charge us to use their space. This wasn't a token expense either, we're talking $100 per meeting. Most of these girls couldn't afford the $2 semi-weekly dues. How were we going to come up with that kind of money to fund an after school program that mostly catered to low income public school kids.

[Arcadia]

Perhaps if the middle schoolers were challenged more, there'd be less of a problem with delinquency. This is an age where they can start doing very interesting science projects, or art or drama or sports or ... Instead, the middle schoolers are just warehoused.

That is a main draw for local parents to get their kids into the lottery middle school or to get to the charter school. No school play, musical, school art exhibit, science fair, math clubs unless parents run it and the principal/admin approve.

 

A neighbor with a 6th grader wanted to start a mathcount school team a few months ago, she is still waiting for approval. The middle school doesn't host the AMC8/10 exams either eventhough they have parents who would be willing to volunteer for the events.

 

The tech museum has an annual tech challenge for 4th graders and up. The teams don't need to be school based so neighbors have formed teams.

 

What my school district still have is algebra at 7th. It really is a holding pattern.

[Arcadia]

I'm glad to hear that your area schools are welcoming community classes for student participation. Two years ago I was a troop leader for Girl Scouts and every public school in the area wanted to charge us to use their space.

I was told the local public schools open space areas are free to use after the last bell (3:30pm) and on weekends since everything was built and funded with local tax dollars. Many use the playgrounds and outdoor basketball courts there.

 

My local library does not charge non-profits for use of the community rooms for free classes, performances, lectures and meetings. After people know about it, there are lots more free events at the library like python programming classes for teens, chess club, knitting club, book club, writing club... run by volunteers.

 

ETA:

The middle school bus and the high school bus stop near to the city library.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Arcadia

[Carol in Cal.]

 

The tech museum has an annual tech challenge for 4th graders and up. The teams don't need to be school based so neighbors have formed teams.

 

FYI the Camden Community Center has sponsored Lego Robotics teams several times.  DD was in one about 5 years ago.  Her team was a mix of homeschoolers, private schoolers, and public schoolers.  They won the Project Presentation Award and advanced to the next level together.  It was an awesome experience.

[zarabellesmom]

I was told the local public schools open space areas are free to use after the last bell (3:30pm) and on weekends since everything was built and funded with local tax dollars. Many use the playgrounds and outdoor basketball courts there.

 

My local library does not charge non-profits for use of the community rooms for free classes, performances, lectures and meetings. After people know about it, there are lots more free events at the library like python programming classes for teens, chess club, knitting club, book club, writing club... run by volunteers.

 

ETA:

The middle school bus and the high school bus stop near to the city library.

Sadly, both of our local libraries charged significant fees as well. This must be a local phenomenon.

[8circles]

I don't think there is anything you, as a homeschooler, can do any more than any other regular citizen.

Edited December 3, 2015 by 8circles

[Arcadia]

Sadly, both of our local libraries charged significant fees as well. This must be a local phenomenon.

:grouphug:

Our local libraries and the teen centers are trying to get teens in so that they don't get into gangs. They have game nights and fun stuff like cookie nights, movie nights so teens would "loiter" at the library.

 

Does your local library need to revenue from fees? Some of my local libraries have vending machines or cafes. Those probably provide decent revenue to the library.

[zarabellesmom]

:grouphug:

Our local libraries and the teen centers are trying to get teens in so that they don't get into gangs. They have game nights and fun stuff like cookie nights, movie nights so teens would "loiter" at the library.

 

Does your local library need to revenue from fees? Some of my local libraries have vending machines or cafes. Those probably provide decent revenue to the library.

 

No, they don't have vending or cafes, but I pay a significant amount in library fines. They've said they are almost finished building my wing of the library.  ;) You'd think such a big donor could get a room.

[daijobu]

 

ETA: I agree that the coverage of polynomials in Intermediate Algebra is almost excessive. We were rather ruthless there. DH and I are both theoretical physicists and use advanced math on a daily basis, but never heard of, or used, many of  the things. OTOH, I did not feel the same about the trigonometry in Precalculus!  This is a thorough treatment, but has lots of applications and the concepts are frequently used.

 

Thanks for the tip about trig.  I wasn't planning to skip the whole thing, but we'll be sure to cover it all now.   

[pehp]

This was really helpful.  Thank you!

 

I would be aware that there is nothing that one single person can do. It's a team effort. So you have to be ready to stick it out and be a team player for years and years and years. No one person has ever actually achieved anything for society. It's always a group effort. It's always long term. And there's always a passionate opposition telling you to give up, nobody can change it, you're so naive, why do you even try, nothing can change it.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't recommend the public sector to anybody. I've worked my entire life for change and  not big change but little changes, one by one. Helping children, widows, the displaced, one at a time.

 

I think my heart has broken at posts like Tibbie's so many times: "Don't try, it's hopeless, it will never work, you're wasting your life, give up! Give up! Give up! Serve yourself, not community, they're hopeless, it will never change, you can't do anything..." And thinking "do people really think like that? Am I so stupid? Am I so useless? Is everyone so unkind that they give up hope? Why can't I stop hoping? Why can't I stop trying?" It is very difficult, psychologically, to continue to work for a better future while half the country ridicules you for your "naive hope and change" or "stupid" belief that maybe, just maybe, you can improve something.

 

Because not for that one kid in five years, so not for any kid, ever. Right?

 

I would never send my children into that, and I would tell you also... guard yourself. There are people that get no greater joy than telling others that the entire project of social justice is a failure, that their life's work is a joke, and that there is no hope. Getting involved in social change and the public good means putting your heart on the line, your hope on the line. You have not faced the cynicism, the anger, the sheer passion of hatred against those who continue to hope against hope for a better future for all children in this country, not merely their own, until you've worked in public education. Until you've seen programs paying for assistants snapped out from under you by politicians who claim that "one child failing is too many". Until you've heard tens of times, "Those who can't, teach." And all of a sudden it occurs to you, "They're talking about me. They're talking about me. I'm teaching. I'm not even getting paid for it! They think I'm doing this because I can't." 

 

It is not for the faint of heart.

 

Honestly, anyone willing to go in there, and by sheer force of will, determine that they will stand by the kids and speak up for what's right, whether as an instructional assistant, or ESL tutor, or after-school program person, or someone writing grants for equipment and following up on its use... that person can have a tremendous impact because what is missing most in the public schools is a feeling that society supports them. Just showing up again and again and saying, "We'll do this one little thing, and I'll stand by you, and it will make a little bit of difference in these little lives, and all together, the little drops will form a river..." You can't imagine what a difference something like that makes.

 

 

I don't know why you don't think that helping teachers with materials is help. :(

 

That's 90% of what I get asked to do and I'm the flipping secretary of one PTSA and was on a curriculum committee for another.

 

Schools don't have ANY money for extras. ANY help is appreciated. Your work keeps a teacher in her job for five more years because she can go pick up her kids on time. She can go in, pick up her kids and think, "Thank god for Kinsa... it's nice that I get this support... I don't think I could take this salary if I couldn't at least pick up my kids from school." Or say she doesn't have kids. Still, just knowing that parents support her, that's a big deal. Yeah, I get it, the PTSA may be comprised of moms who play politics and do blah blah blah. I get it. Deal with it. It doesn't mean that material support to teachers doesn't make a huge difference.

 

Indeed, involved parents doing things like laminating and stapling is a major indicator of school success. Yes, laminating  card stock.

 

It ain't sexy, people. I once spent four hours gluing paper on to socks. Afterwards the teacher hugged me. It meant she could go home to pick up her baby from daycare on time. She is here this year. That experience makes a difference.

 

Literally, all the PTSA does even in the most well-off areas, is raise money for more warm bodies in the classroom to literally sit there with card-stock and review. Just that human interaction is a plus.

 

That said, if you want to change the system, go into politics. Don't go teach in a public school. That's a different job entirely. Policy change vs. service delivery. Let's not get these confused.

 

[pehp]

Thank you!  On the way to church the other day I decided to start attending the school board's meetings, just to learn more. 

I don't know.  I'm not anti public schools.  I haven't always had the best attitude from teachers when they discover I homeschool.  I get the impression that they may not want me bothering with them. 

 

That said, locally the super asks for public input regularly and it does not matter if one has a child in the school system or not.  They specifically say so.  I've found that information on the district's website.  Have you looked at your district's website?  They often have public meetings.  You could start by attending them to find out what sorts of things they talk about.

 

[pehp]

Strangely enough the thought occurred to me on the way to church a few days ago. (I haven't been back to this thread since I posted it--because our week was packed.)  I already know several members and we are pretty well-known in our county, so it's not outside the realm of possibility. I probably would not even consider it until my children are older, though--maybe in 5-10 years.  For now I am planning to start attending meetings to get a feel for what's happening.  I read the local paper with interest each week and talk to teachers/parents, but I'd like to get a little more involved.  

 

OP,

Have you consider running for the school board?

My local school board has six members. Currently two have kids in the public school while four don't. The two with kids does only things that benefit their kids directly and their kids classmates as a side effect. Out of the four without kids in school, three pander to their own egos while the fourth is a retiree who likes to stay neutral. Very tough to get anything useful discussed in board meetings or town hall meetings.

 

[pehp]

This is awesome and so inspiring.  

 
Thank you.  I personally love this message and never get tired of hearing it.  Like all homeschoolers I get into ruts sometimes, but for the most part I'm constantly looking to "up my game" so to speak and create a really excellent education for my son. I've recently started to be more public with Facebook and my friends about what our homeschooling looks like in part because I'm excited and in part because I've noticed a lot of them are very curious about it.  Not in a bragging sort of way, but I really used to hide our homeschool until my husband said something recently like "maybe you should let people know what's possible."  

We just got back from a two month road trip to National Parks where my son was hiking, attending ranger talks every night, birdwatching, stargazing, etc.  Last year he did a 350 mile bike-packing trip with DH. He's in AOPS pre-algebra.  He reads a chapter book every few days and loves grammar.  He has memorized dozens of classic poems.  He's starting to learn Italian and we're saving for a trip to Italy.  He still has plenty of time to play.  I spend a lot of time picking out and reading aloud quality literature.  I'm proud of what we do and I don't ever want to get complacent about it.

Interestingly we tried public school for 6 months.  It was a gifted magnet school and supposedly the best public school in the city. Great parents, great teachers, but a "meh" curriculum and way too overcrowded and no playground.  It wasn't a bad school, but just not a great fit for us.  The teachers were supportive telling me "clearly he doesn't need the academics here" and "bring him by for a recess pass any time!"  The parents have really want to pick my brain for ideas to after school and deal with the not so great middle school (many have told me they are thinking about homeschooling middle school).  My best friend in another state, and a staunch pro-public schooler, is also thinking of taking a middle school sabbatical to travel with her daughter.  I don't think she would have thad the confidence to do it except by seeing how it works for us.  

So yes, I agree that leading by example is perhaps the best (and maybe only) way to really help improve the system as a whole.  

 

[pehp]

Thanks for the responses!  I haven't been back to the forum since I posted this because we had a seriously strenuous week--and when that happens the Internet goes first so that I can focus on Real Life!  I appreciate the concrete suggestions from others who have 'studied' this problem as well.  It all provides excellent food for thought and some little seeds for me to germinate for a while as I ponder this question more. 

 

There were a few posts that were also just inspiring--particularly in how providing an excellent home education can be one of the ways we move in an upward trajectory with education as a whole in society.  Yes, I get that!

 

[hugssandi]

I haven't read all of the replies, but I think it depends on the school and its principal.  We live in an inner city, and the neighborhood has come together for community gardening at one of our schools, fund-raising, etc.  I honestly haven't been very active in this, but I would be happy to ask any Q's if you are interested since it has been successful!

 

BEFORE having children and homeschooling I did volunteer at the school near us for a year and was able to be a teacher's helper in a few classrooms.  

[Bluegoat]

I think this is true not just for your local schools, but for the school system in this country in general: incredible push for early academics, then virtually no progress from grades 5 through 7. Elsewhere in the world, they start later and more slowly (back home, 1st graders are done with school by 11am or noon), and expectations increase around grade 5. The system here makes no sense.

 

 

It's interesting that its grade 5.  My dd who is ten has had a hard time with some math, in prticulr, anything that requires memorization. Suddenly, this year in grade 5, it seems like her abilities to deal with that sort of thing have taken a huge leap - like there is  different sort of processing going on.  I feel like I wasted a lot of time, and probably also convinced her that it is a tedious subject.

 

[Bluegoat]

A 'good pressure' anecdote, though it might not count as it's to do with the arts and not the academics.....our homeschool theatresports team winning the tournament against the 'top' private schools and selective public schools in our part of the city. 

 

Will it make a shred of difference to the schools ? Nope/ Good for the homeschool rep though. Maybe it will make school parents pause before they sneer at homeschoolers who 'just don't understand the competition in the real world' next time. Or maybe not. They'll probably concede that we have time to focus on the arts because otherwise our kids are just playing in the ditch :)

 

I always find these conversations that end up in a mini fear campaign - got to do better than the schools because lots of schools do good! - annoying.

 

To me, it just demonstrates a lack of understanding about what it means to remove a child's education from an institutional model. Hint. It's not just about the academics.

 

As far as the school system goes ? We've spent time volunteering in the public schools. I actually think it just props up a broken model.

 

I think where people worry is in trying to figure out an alternate to n institutional model that will work for people who can't or won't homeschool.  I tend to think something like cottage schools is the best answer.