AoPS Prealgebra: how many problems does your child solve in an hour?

[Steven]

Based on comments offered in other threads on AoPS Prealgebra, I am limiting math to 1 hour per day. So when the hour is up (sometimes with an extra 5 or 10 minutes to compensate for obviously wasted time), I let my daughter stop. We are currently on chapter 3 Review Problems. She is managing to get about 5 problems a day (although some of these might have multiple parts, or an a, b, c, and d problem). We have already spent 3 lessons on the review problems and will need at least one more.

 

If I try to get her to move quicker, I get tears. 

 

Am I being unreasonable to expect her to move at least a little faster?

[Upennmama]

That's a really hard chapter. My DD was about that slow until I started doing it along with her, out loud, on the board. I'd try that for a few days to see if she's struggling or dawdling.

[hellen]

Does she take as long to complete the section problems?

 

I think it is unreasonable to ask her to work faster without knowing why she is working slowly. Is her mental math a little slow or her understanding of the material? Does she daydream or doodle while working?

[EmilyGF]

Here's what my son says about AOPS Pre-A:

 

"Most of the problems are easy. You just have to write a lot. A lot. But the challenge problems are really really hard."

 

So he's coming to terms with the amount of writing involved and does have to spend a lot of time on the challenge problems.

 

Maybe make Alcumus harder and have her do more before she gets to Review? Have you had her look over the solutions in detail before the Review?

 

He does 45 minutes of AOPs per day.

Emily

[Steven]

Does she take as long to complete the section problems?

 

I think it is unreasonable to ask her to work faster without knowing why she is working slowly. Is her mental math a little slow or her understanding of the material? Does she daydream or doodle while working?

 

Yes, the section problems also take a long time to complete. 

 

She did Singapore for 1 through 5 and wants to do everything mentally. I have had a hard time convincing her that she needs to write some things down, although that battle seems to have been mostly won now that we are in chapter 3. 

 

I am pretty sure that she understands the material. She gets the right answers most of the time. And when she doesn't, it is usually because of a computation error, or she tells me that she doesn't understand, or that she needs help.

 

The problem is, I can't tell if she is daydreaming or not. If I make a comment to her to stay focused, she gets mad at me for interrupting. But if I don't hover over her, the pace gets even slower. 

[EmilyGF]

Did she do any Intensive Practice or Challenging Word Problems with Singapore?

 

Emily

[Steven]

Well, today she raced through the remaining 6 problems in less than 25 minutes. Maybe just the drudgery of factoring is slowing her down.

 

We usually did Singapore Intensive practice over the summer, but for the fifth grade books, we did two Life of Fred books (Fractions and Decimals) instead. She hates anything remotely like drills, so I wonder if she just lacks the automaticity one needs to make work like factoring go faster.

[Roadrunner]

Chapter 3 was uniquely special, in a sense that it required lots of big number manipulation. Because of that we thought it was the toughest chapter in the book. Usually it's about recognizing how to solve the problem and the rest (actual number manipulation) is easy. Not so in that chapter. She will speed up as she moves out of that chapter.

Having said that, Mia that we are in algebra, we are finding challenging problems section takes us three days per chapter.

[Targhee]

Yes, the section problems also take a long time to complete.

 

She did Singapore for 1 through 5 and wants to do everything mentally. I have had a hard time convincing her that she needs to write some things down, although that battle seems to have been mostly won now that we are in chapter 3.

 

I am pretty sure that she understands the material. She gets the right answers most of the time. And when she doesn't, it is usually because of a computation error, or she tells me that she doesn't understand, or that she needs help.

 

The problem is, I can't tell if she is daydreaming or not. If I make a comment to her to stay focused, she gets mad at me for interrupting. But if I don't hover over her, the pace gets even slower.

Have you considered having her work a total of 60 minutes but breaking it up into two or three segments? She could do 30 min then a different subject (or lunch break) then another 30. Or do 20 min work-5 min break three times.

 

It can be difficult to sustain that level of mental exercise for a whole hour, and my kids do best with little breaks (Google pomodoros for more suggestions). Think of it both as building mental muscles in sets rather than max-to-fatigue sessions, and giving the break time for some background processing to go on.

 

As far as showing work, has she watched the videos? He shows work step-wise and that may encourage her to do the same.

 

My oldest did a similar path (preA after SM 5) and is a daydreamer (diagnosed ADD) and fought writing her work down. In Singapore she would solve even the most challenging problems without writing down her work, and even though she solved them correctly she couldn't always explain aloud how she did it.

 

Using AOPS has helped (forced) the use of writing down her work. Now that she does online AOPS classes with weekly written full solutions she's actually doing really well with them.remember it is a skill, and be patient for its development.

[SparklyUnicorn]

It's impossible to say because the problems are all different. 

[Dmmetler]

For DD, sometimes she could do three sections in an hour, sometimes she could do one problem in an hour. It just depended on the problem (and probably the phase of the moon-it really seemed quite silly at times). That's one reason why we are doing AoPS independently-she is just so inconsistent on the amount of time it takes.

 

I will say that math often stretched to 1 1/2-2 hours when she was working on a hard problem-as long as she was engaged and focused, not frustrated, I didn't stop her.

 

 

 

 

[GeoKitty]

Hi, 

 

This is my first post…. my DD usually does one section in an hour, problems and exercises.  Not always, though, due t the variety of difficulty presented.  She is starting on the ch. 4 review problems, so I don't know how she will do later in the book.

 

When my DS did it last year, he was much slower… problems one day, exercises over the next one or two days.

 

We keep math to 60 minutes a day, only occasionally going over.

[skimomma]

We are in a similar boat.  Dd is 12 and she also did Singapore before except she did SM6 too.  She just finished Chapter 4, Section 2 so about the same pace.  The actual amount of time on each problem really varies.  The reviews have been 2-3 days so far.  I hand-pick 5-8 challenge problems. That was a suggestion someone gave me here and it is working well.  If dd did them all we would be in this book for two years.  As it is, I think it will take 1.5 years to finish.  Which is fine.  Dd has never been a speedy student.  We spend 60-90 minutes a day. Back in SM, she only did math 4 days a week and for no more than an hour, often around 45 minutes.  This has been a huge change.  But dd really likes this program even though it is hard and she sometimes gets frustrated.  I was pretty set on changing programs a few weeks ago but dd was very resistant to that idea.

[Steven]

Thanks for all the input. I guess I should stop worrying about her pace. I do like the idea of splitting the session up. When we did Singapore, we would do the Textbook in the morning and the Workbook in the afternoon. 

[Arcadia]

The problem is, I can't tell if she is daydreaming or not. If I make a comment to her to stay focused, she gets mad at me for interrupting. But if I don't hover over her, the pace gets even slower.

My DS9 is similar. I used to ask him what he is doing and he would indignantly answer "I am thinking!"

 

What help him was providing a distraction free work area, lots of scrap paper, pencils and his water bottle.

 

My slowpoke gets almost no careless errors compare to my speedster. My speedster however consumes a lot of food while thinking, he can't think once his "fuel tank" goes on low.

[Steven]

My DS9 is similar. I used to ask him what he is doing and he would indignantly answer "I am thinking!"

 

What help him was providing a distraction free work area, lots of scrap paper, pencils and his water bottle.

 

My slowpoke gets almost no careless errors compare to my speedster. My speedster however consumes a lot of food while thinking, he can't think once his "fuel tank" goes on low.

 

Unfortunately my daughter still makes careless mistakes, partly because she won't write down the in-between answers that she generates with her mental math skills. 

[Arcadia]

Unfortunately my daughter still makes careless mistakes, partly because she won't write down the in-between answers that she generates with her mental math skills.

Maturity reduces the careless mistakes my boys made more than anything else.

 

However any problem they make a mistake on means having to write out a proper worked out answer for me.

 

I also tell them that an answer is only worth 10-20% of the marks allocated to that question. So if they only give me answers, they get an F. I follow the Cambridge exams style of marking which is what I was used to.

[EndOfOrdinary]

We do the same: answer is worth 5% only. Ds (11) has to write out each problem both in his creative way of thinking and in the traditional approach. That means he only gets either the section problems or the exercises done each day (35 minutes or so), but his problem solving ability has really increased since getting the concept through his brain that being able to understand solving was really the point. It took a good year plus for him to understand that AoPS is not at all about the answer - it is process. I even give him open access to the answers. He gets it now, and things are much smoother, but initially he seemed to feel very proud of himself for having everything in his head.

[My3girls]

It varies. My slow worker will take 1.5 years to finish it, 60-90 minutes a day 4 days a week. I am debating on whether to go with Derek Owens for Algebra 1 or stick with AOPS. We really cannot afford for Alg. 1 to take 1.5 years as well.

[MrSmith]

Depends on the material. My kid finished much of chapter 7 review in one hour. In chapter 11 I was ecstatic with 3 complete answers.

[...................]

Resurrecting this thread...

 

this is why I am afraid of AOPS long term.  Even if I think I can get her through Pre-Alg, which I am very confident of, I know that I cannot help with the end of Intro to Alg A, and I don't see the point in paying a tutor when she has NO DESIRE to go into any type of math field or bother with math competitions (though she is very good at math)....

 

 

 

[daijobu]

Resurrecting this thread...

 

this is why I am afraid of AOPS long term.  Even if I think I can get her through Pre-Alg, which I am very confident of, I know that I cannot help with the end of Intro to Alg A, and I don't see the point in paying a tutor when she has NO DESIRE to go into any type of math field or bother with math competitions (though she is very good at math)....

 

Certainly tutoring is expensive, and I don't know your specific situation, but just to play devil's advocate (and give you a different point of view to consider):

 

According to your signature, your dd is 11?  That's a pretty early age to decide that she doesn't want to go into a math-related field.  

 

On the one hand, she certainly doesn't need AoPS to do something math related, and doing AoPS doesn't mean she MUST do something math related either.  I think having a strong math background is a good idea for everyone, whether you are interested in art history or architecture.  

 

If you think PreAlgebra is doable but are wondering about Algebra, why not cross that Algebra bridge when you come to it?  

 

I think I may have misunderstood your situation anyway.  Does your dd want to do AoPS PreAlgebra?  If so, I'd say go for it and worry about algebra later.  If she doesn't, then there are plenty of other excellent math curricula around. 

 

I hope that gives you some food for thought.   Good luck with your decision!  

[Julie of KY]

I think the if you think prealgebra is doable, you might be surprised to also find the algebra book doable. It moves along similarly to the PreA book. (It's very hard to jump into if you don't have the foundation or the experience of having struggled with some challenging problems already.)

[...................]

Arcadia - that's a good point. My dd is 12 and very very humanities/literature based :)

 

She doesn't necessarily want to do AOPS- she wishes she could just do Zacarros math, and is done with the first half of horizons 6 which means she is ready for pre- Alg and she hates hates drill so...AOPS was in consideration :)

 

Julie- I know I can't support it because my son is doing it. Even when I help him it's with him helping me helping him :) if it wasn't for the tutor being involved it would not work. :)

[madteaparty]

Resurrecting this thread...

 

this is why I am afraid of AOPS long term. Even if I think I can get her through Pre-Alg, which I am very confident of, I know that I cannot help with the end of Intro to Alg A, and I don't see the point in paying a tutor when she has NO DESIRE to go into any type of math field or bother with math competitions (though she is very good at math)....

This was a concern of mine, and as negative as I am about Aops for us, it does have amazingly detailed solutions. We could not use the program without those, and I've ruled out other programs (Singapore, which is a better fit for us, is out because no real solution book).

Also, if I find it in me to go through the lesson and such I can usually work through a problem. (It's interesting when this happens that DS solves anproblem comletely differently from me). This is not fun for me and not my favorite thing to do, but i do have the capacity still.

Ds also shows no inclination of going into any math fields at all, but we stick with AoPS in the spirit of "do hard things". I reserve the right to change my mind about that the next minute ;)

[Arcadia]

She doesn't necessarily want to do AOPS- she wishes she could just do Zacarros math, and is done with the first half of horizons 6 which means she is ready for pre- Alg and she hates hates drill so...AOPS was in consideration :)

 

Julie- I know I can't support it because my son is doing it. Even when I help him it's with him helping me helping him :) if it wasn't for the tutor being involved it would not work. :)

When your daughter gets stuck on AoPS prealgebra in the future, let your son help her. Good way for him to revise and save you some tution money.

 

Also take AoPS one book at a time. My oldest stuck with AoPS for the moment because the other books we have doesn't look interesting enough to him. For Calculus we have a lot more choices so he might go with something else or a combination of books.

My youngest is not sure what he wants so he just go with whatever oldest use. Anytime he want to switch we would do it. He likes math puzzles but he doesn't need to use AoPS textbooks if he doesn't like it.

 

Both my boys dislike Zaccaros and Life of Fred :lol: They thought Jacobs, Dr Burger and Larson boring while Stewart is tolerable. That's the nice part of homeschooling, being able to pick and choose books for each kid.

 

ETA:

We have the same problem with the online geometry class having almost identical class transcripts regardless of instructor. Some are more jovial and some are more helpful. However my oldest benefit most from the study groups the classmates form themselves. We call it paying for the socialising instead, kind of like paying for online math playdates.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Arcadia

[bibiche]

Resurrecting this thread...

 

this is why I am afraid of AOPS long term.  Even if I think I can get her through Pre-Alg, which I am very confident of, I know that I cannot help with the end of Intro to Alg A, and I don't see the point in paying a tutor when she has NO DESIRE to go into any type of math field or bother with math competitions (though she is very good at math)....

Have you considered the AoPS online classes?  Here, DS thrives on them.  And they certainly would be less expensive than hiring a tutor. You can also drop up to the third class if it isn't a good fit.

Edited January 15, 2016 by bibiche

[...................]

When your daughter gets stuck on AoPS prealgebra in the future, let your son help her. Good way for him to revise and save you some tution money.

 

Also take AoPS one book at a time. My oldest stuck with AoPS for the moment because the other books we have doesn't look interesting enough to him. For Calculus we have a lot more choices so he might go with something else or a combination of books.

My youngest is not sure what he wants so he just go with whatever oldest use. Anytime he want to switch we would do it. He likes math puzzles but he doesn't need to use AoPS textbooks if he doesn't like it.

 

Both my boys dislike Zaccaros and Life of Fred :lol: They thought Jacobs, Dr Burger and Larson boring while Stewart is tolerable. That's the nice part of homeschooling, being able to pick and choose books for each kid.

 

ETA:

We have the same problem with the online geometry class having almost identical class transcripts regardless of instructor. Some are more jovial and some are more helpful. However my oldest benefit most from the study groups the classmates form themselves. We call it paying for the socialising instead, kind of like paying for online math playdates.

My son is willing....hmmm

[Arcadia]

My son is willing....hmmm

Being a math tutor is always a good sideline :lol: Tell him it is on the job training/internship/apprenticeship

 

ETA：

The solution manuals are just one way to solve the problem. If you don't want to wait for the tutor to verify your child's solution, you can always post on the aops forum.

 

Also Kathy's daughter is an aops instructor and she only use the volume 1 & 2 books. As they say many roads lead to Rome.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Arcadia