Kathryn Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Almost-6yo DS at the park this morning stomped on about a dozen small (like fingertip size) frogs, killing them, before his older brother could tell me what he was doing. He says he did it because their 8yo friend told him to. This seems to be the case as his friend just texted that he was sorry he told him to kill the frogs. The friend was also doing it. He is desperate for friends and won't play with children his own age; he wants to be with his brother and his friends. He wants to be liked and accepted. DH and I (and older DS) are not indiscriminate killers! We kill *most* bugs in the house and mosquitoes on us outside or a yellow jacket nest in the yard, but this is definitely not acceptable and not something we've dealt with before. I've seen him kill bugs outside for no reason and told him to stop and explained that we don't take any life for no reason. He knew it was wrong and even tried to lie to get out of trouble and said the friend threatened to hurt him if he didn't do it. So, how would you handle this? I don't know if I'm making too big a deal out of this, but it feels like a big deal to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroe1 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Sounds like normal boy stuff to me. I would just say, "Stop killing the frogs, that's mean," and be done with it. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebbyribs Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Do you do much nature study? If he learns more about the frogs and bugs, and has a chance to observe some up close, maybe he'll see them as interesting creatures instead of things to stomp on. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I would supervise him much more closely. I would not allow him to be with the 8 year old friend - again unless you are right there and are involved the entire time. 19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErinE Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I think it's a big deal, but I wouldn't punish him. Five is still very young and the thrill of being liked by an older boy may have overcome your son's reservations about killing the frogs. I would talk to him and not allow my children to spend time with the eight year old anymore. Eight is old enough to know better. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthwestMom Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 The Board is not allowing me to "Like" posts, so for the record, I support Jean and Erin's posts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I don't even like killing spiders in my house, but I would not punish for this. I would talk (again) about why you don't believe in hurting animals, and do some role play involving resisting friends' bad suggestions. I don't think it's a bad idea to ground him from playing with that friend for a while, just to give him time to think about his responsibility to make his own good choices when with friends. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne in CA Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I don't like to kill things either, and I would not punish, but talk to him about the pros and cons of doing things to make others happy. Not wanting to play with boys his own age but wanting to run with the big kids caused my ds A LOT of trouble, I still don't know how I would have fixed it, because you can't make someone like someone else. Fortunately my ds ran with the church big boys as he got older and they didn't get him into trouble the way the neighborhood big boys did when he was about 8-10. The 13yo's in the "hood" would get him to do stuff that wasn't good but he would do it to hang out with them. I had lots of talks with other moms over those years. Over time ds did get very good at resisting peer pressure because he learned from these experiences. But I would have been just as happy to skip some of them too, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I wouldn't make a big deal about the frogs. You don't want your ds to be riddled with guilt for life over this. I would say it wasn't a nice thing to do and tell him not to do it again, and then I would let it go and not bring it up again. I agree with others that I would supervise his activities with the 8yo until you are confident that he isn't a mean kid, and that the frog thing was just a stupid thing he did and not a pattern of wanting to hurt things. I do, however, think it is a good sign that he said he was sorry about the frog thing -- it sounds like his mom may have felt the same way you did about killing the frogs and told him it was wrong to do it. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparrowsNest Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Echoing what others have said... 1: not make a big deal out of the frog stomping 2: not make a habit of playing with this particular kiddo 3: make a mental note to have a conversation(s) about not compromising your own values in order to fit in with the 'cool kids' 4: not worry too much about the situation itself unless you see a worrying pattern develop 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted July 23, 2015 Author Share Posted July 23, 2015 Friend's mom is horrified. They are vegan Buddhists. :) She's already had him write an apology letter and delivered it. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted July 23, 2015 Author Share Posted July 23, 2015 Thank you for the advice. My oldest is not a follower so this is new territory for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Thank you for the advice. My oldest is not a follower so this is new territory for me. Unless you are seeing a major pattern of your ds being a follower, I wouldn't be too quick to label him or worry about it. He's still such a little kid. I wouldn't expect him to always make the right choices or to never go along with what other kids are doing at that age. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I would start some nature study and not mention the frogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllll Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 nm 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Nyssa Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 My children (and I myself when I was little) all had incidents of needlessly killing bugs before they realized that it was wrong and not what they wanted to do. Somehow it had to go that far before they realized they didn't want to. I think that I myself would punish, but not a major punishment, and something that would be over the same day. Did you mean that friend was texting your son? I would think that would be a little young for texting? If so I think I would let that be a longer-term consequence- not allowed to text with friend for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 We live in a farming and hunting family so I can't have a blanket no killing rule. I also think that's kind of hypocritical unless you are vegetarian. So we have two rules - no killing without purpose (purpose can be because the animal is a pest that needs eradicating or for food) and if you have to kill it has to be done as quickly and painlessly as possible. This didn't meet standard of rule one but it did with rule two. It wasn't like he was pulling them apart or something particularly cruel. I think it's relatively normal behaviour but would explain those rules and also spend time on nature study as much as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 Young children often don't really grasp death, or that hurting for no good purpose is wrong. Even at five-almost-six, it can be tricky. I wouldn't do some really big punishment for this - a few talks about how we don't harm other beings just for fun is enough. I'm concerned, though, not just that he was pushed into this by an older boy, but that he claims this kid said he'd hurt him if he didn't join in. THAT doesn't seem normal or age appropriate, if it's true. Eight is a little old for casual, ignorant cruelty to animals. I would definitely closely supervise this friendship for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abba12 Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 He knew it was wrong and even tried to lie to get out of trouble and said the friend threatened to hurt him if he didn't do it. Try to make certain whether or not this statement was true. It does happen, that older children will threaten younger children to do naughty things. It happened to me as a child, though I wasn't believed. I'm not saying the older child did, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility immediately. Like an above poster, we have a 'no killing without purpose' rule. I would have a good talk about it, explain why it was wrong, and also have a good talk about peer pressure. But right now this is a one-off incident, so I wouldn't punish. If it happened again, my response would be more serious though. I was also going to suggest telling the other childs parents, but you've obviously already done that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abba12 Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 He knew it was wrong and even tried to lie to get out of trouble and said the friend threatened to hurt him if he didn't do it. Try to make certain whether or not this statement was true. It does happen, that older children will threaten younger children to do naughty things. It happened to me as a child, though I wasn't believed. I'm not saying the older child did, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility immediately. Like an above poster, we have a 'no killing without purpose' rule. I would have a good talk about it, explain why it was wrong, and also have a good talk about peer pressure. But right now this is a one-off incident, so I wouldn't punish. If it happened again, my response would be more serious though. I was also going to suggest telling the other childs parents, but you've obviously already done that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 Killing the frogs is one issue but it sounds like your concern is more the "following" aspect of it. That would be most concerning to me as well-immaturity IMO can explain the senseless killing and those kinds of impulses will change as he grows up. Doing an act to gain the approval and acceptance of other kids is something I would work on. Probably a few conversations about the topic would be a good place to start. We had problems here in a similar situation-my children were 3 1\2 years apart so fairly significant age difference, and I learned that I needed to provide some social opportunities for my younger child too-ones that his older sib had to be patient and nice for also-so it was good practice for him too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 I think that just talking about these issues is enough - his lack of perception is mostly an age thing. The following bigger kids is a really difficult one I think because it in a lot of ways makes sense that older kids seem to have a kind of authority to younger ones - they have more experience, know the rules, have fun ideas. My five year old sometimes goes out to play in the neighbourhood with his sisters and I really want him to listen to them because they are likely to squash any really bad ideas he has. So - I think him following the older boys advice is pretty normal and the real difficulty was that he didn't seem to clue in that it was bad advice - mostly because he lacks experience himself. So i would stay low-key and say - hurting animals or killing for fun is wrong, and if someone else tells you to do it, don't go along with it. If you have doubts, ask mom or dad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted July 24, 2015 Author Share Posted July 24, 2015 To address a few questions: The friend uses his mom's account to text and it goes to me and I show DS. We do distinguish between killing for no reason or out of necessity. I talked about that again yesterday and we went over different scenarios and talked about when it was okay or not okay to kill other creatures. We do frequently pause to appreciate nature. DH is always saving turtles or lizards or snakes or frogs or birds..., and showing the boys. I take them to activities just for younger son, but he refuses to play with the kids his age and will just play by himself if I don't let his brother participate. He is obsessed with his brother. I'm hoping that will change as kids his age get into older kid things. I think a lot of it is that he's been exposed to things like Harry Potter and The Hobbit, etc., that the kids his age have no clue about so they can't play what he wants to play and he doesn't identify with them. I'm sure the threat wasn't true. When we were on the way home, older brother asked why he did it and he said he didn't know. I said "that's not what you told me at the park." He didn't want to say it in front of his brother. So, I got suspicious and questioned him. He then admitted that he didn't want to get in trouble and thought he wouldn't if he said he was threatened. So, we ended up talking about respecting life and not doing things you know are wrong even if someone you admire or trust tells you to and he didn't get his screen time yesterday that he earns for good attitude with schoolwork. Again, thank you for the advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllll Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 nm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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