I feel for Bruce Jenner.

[LucyStoner]

I know fit people but no high school jock types who are gay. I mean in my circle, what, maybe 5-10% are gay or trans? Maybe? More likely 5%.

 

Combine that with the likelihood of being a high school jock who now works in humanitarian aid and what can I say, it's a low number.

 

I was in no way trying to say you can't be athletic but that it's not a cause of not being straight/CIS particularly as far as steroid use is concerned...

 

Maybe we have a different idea of who's on steroids though. My impression was that it's not the gals I'm running the st. Patty's dash with but who knows.

I'm thinking neither of us is understanding the other.

 

Honest question though- you have no running friends who are gay? I guess I just know either a lot of gay and trans people or a lot of athletic people (including a crap ton in the non-profit world around here) or maybe both. These are not groups with unlikely overlaps.

[Scarlett]

What a mess. His oldest ds was born June 1980, married to his second wife jan 1981, second son born June 1981.

 

And if he felt he was a woman why did he keep marrying women? I don't get it.

[Catwoman]

What a mess. His oldest ds was born June 1980, married to his second wife jan 1981, second son born June 1981.

 

And if he felt he was a woman why did he keep marrying women? I don't get it.

Apparently, he isn't sexually attracted to men.

[Χά�ων]

What a mess. His oldest ds was born June 1980, married to his second wife jan 1981, second son born June 1981.

 

And if he felt he was a woman why did he keep marrying women? I don't get it.

Gender and sexual attraction are not the same thing.

 

Bruce gender is female.

 

Bruce can be attracted to women, men, women and men, neither or a varied combination. Gender does not matter.

[ThisIsTheDay]

What a mess. His oldest ds was born June 1980, married to his second wife jan 1981, second son born June 1981.

 

And if he felt he was a woman why did he keep marrying women? I don't get it.

 

Actually, his oldest son was born 9/1978.

Daughter born 6/1980.

Those were with his first wife.

Divorced from first wife and married to second wife 1/1981.

Second wife is the mother of the next two children.

Next son born 6/1981.

Next son born 8/1983.

[Scarlett]

Apparently, he isn't sexually attracted to men.

Be that as it may the women he married clearly didn't want to be married to a man who changed into a woman.

[Scarlett]

Actually, his oldest son was born 9/1978.

Daughter born 6/1980.

Those were with his first wife.

Divorced from first wife and married to second wife 1/1981.

Second wife is the mother of the next two children.

Next son born 6/1981.

Next son born 8/1983.

Yes, and that second wife began a relationship with him in the spring of 79 while he was still married. He went back to his wife long enough to conceive baby #2.

 

And then after marriage number 2 ended effectively abandoned those children. He seems very scattered and irresponsible. I do feel for him...he has a lot of stuff going on.

[luuknam]

Yes, and that second wife began a relationship with him in the spring of 79 while he was still married. He went back to his wife long enough to conceive baby #2.

 

And then after marriage number 2 ended effectively abandoned those children. He seems very scattered and irresponsible. I do feel for him...he has a lot of stuff going on.

 

Yes... LGBT people can be scattered and irresponsible too. They're not somehow automatically saints just by being attracted to the opposite sex or by feeling like they are the opposite sex.

 

There are a fair number of transpeople who try to suppress it by trying to live in a traditional masculine/feminine role. You know, thinking that if they just try hard enough, they can maybe fake it till they make it. It doesn't tend to work, from what I know.

[Χά�ων]

Be that as it may the women he married clearly didn't want to be married to a man who changed into a woman.

Her sexual orientation has nothing to do with his sexual orientation. I am trying to figure out what you are trying to express because I have a feeling I am missing something.

[luuknam]

Her sexual orientation has nothing to do with his sexual orientation. I am trying to figure out what you are trying to express because I have a feeling I am missing something.

 

I think she means "why didn't Bruce at least marry women who liked feminine men/who would be okay with him transitioning".

 

My guesses:

 

1) They're not as easy to find (I suspect)

2) He didn't really accept himself as trans and maybe wanted to have a wife who'd keep him masculine

[Scarlett]

Yes... LGBT people can be scattered and irresponsible too. They're not somehow automatically saints just by being attracted to the opposite sex or by feeling like they are the opposite sex.

 

There are a fair number of transpeople who try to suppress it by trying to live in a traditional masculine/feminine role. You know, thinking that if they just try hard enough, they can maybe fake it till they make it. It doesn't tend to work, from what I know.

Doing what one feels like doing can have far reaching painful consequences for many people in one's life.

[Word Nerd]

Her sexual orientation has nothing to do with his sexual orientation. I am trying to figure out what you are trying to express because I have a feeling I am missing something.

 

Her sexual orientation does have to do with whether her spouse physically presents as a man or a woman and whether she will accept a change in that appearance, though. 

[Χά�ων]

Doing what one feels like doing can have far reaching painful consequences for many people in one's life.

That is true for all the cisgender straight people who abandon their children and/or have extra martial affairs, get married several times and so on. Straight, cisgender people are not morally superior.

[Guest]

All the law and commandments can be summed up as love your neighbor as yourself and love your lord with all your heart. And god is love.

 

That is the Christian religion right there. Gospel of John, I believe, and of course the words of Jesus himself.

 

That is why as a Christian I had no problem with love.

 

Adultery is hate, it is a lie, it is hurt.

 

When I was a child, I thought like a child. Now I have love. She who has not love is a clanging cymbal. Empty.

 

 

 

I don't quite understand picking one line out of the Bible and dumping the rest.  Jesus also said, "Go and sin no more."  

 

Not trying to argue, but I just noticed it's common for people to pick out the bolded and ignore the rest of what Jesus said.  He said quite a bit.  The Bible is very clear on what sin is and not continuing in it.

[Guest]

I don't think Luanne was trying to be rude... I think she was referring to the following and other similar verses (correct me if I'm wrong):

 

Matthew 7:21-23King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[Χά�ων]

Her sexual orientation does have to do with whether her spouse physically presents as a man or a woman and whether she will accept a change in that appearance, though.

Not always. Some straight people who marry a person who later transitions are able to take a step back and realize that they are still married to the person they love and fully accept that person and maintain a lasting marriage and household. Does not mean the straight person has become LGB, but has accepted that there is more to their spouse than their gender. Transitioning does not always mean a full external gender reconstruction, it does not mean that person is somehow less than they were.

 

I am not saying everyone is OK with it, but you may be surprised at the number of people who are able to accept their spouse as who they were meant to be and look past what they wear and what their genitals are. After all love is more than skin deep. I do wonder if the difference is that 30 some odd years ago it would have been incredibly hard to find support as a spouse and to live as as lesbian/gay couple. It would be much easier to live as a gay/lesbian couple today and support of of families going through this situation is much easier to find. It is still not an easy road to travel, but it is easier today than 30 years ago.

[Murphy101]

That is true for all the cisgender straight people who abandon their children and/or have extra martial affairs, get married several times and so on. Straight, cisgender people are not morally superior.

That is certainly true. And I wouldn't call either a hero.

[Word Nerd]

Not always. Some straight people who marry a person who later transitions are able to take a step back and realize that they are still married to the person they love and fully accept that person and maintain a lasting marriage and household. 

 

Which I already addressed in my post that you quoted:

 

 

"Her sexual orientation does have to do with whether her spouse physically presents as a man or a woman and whether she will accept a change in that appearance, though."

[Murphy101]

I think it is okay to ask what is causing this. Saying they are born that way doesn't explain why this abnormality (for lack of a better word) has developed in these people. It's an important question. What if we could find a morally acceptable way to prevent this lifelong struggle for future people? We can't even start to know what we don't know if we don't ask this question.

 

I personally doubt it is steroids, most certainly not just steroids. Many major deviations in neurological/mental/emotional or physical development are caused not by one single thing (tho that does happen), but by a convergence of multiple factors.

 

Regardless, asking why should not be an accusatory question. I would never blame a mother bc her kid is transgender. Yes, I think something is going on internally with that child, but I don't think it is her fault. I don't think having a bipolar child is the parents fault. I don't think having a child born with physical deformities is their parents fault. And so forth. Millions of children are likely born under similiar situations and raised similiar and do not present in this manner. This is why I think it is likely not one thing that causes it, but multiple things. Maybe they have some genetic switch that flips when multiple triggers converge. Idk. No one knows. But I don't think asking why and doing valid research into why is a mean or cruel question.

 

Asking this question does not mean we should treat someone badly. We ask this question for many anomalies and it does not mean we don't care for and love people suffering those anomalies.

[Χά�ων]

I think it is okay to ask what is causing this. Saying they are born that way doesn't explain why this abnormality (for lack of a better word) has developed in these people. It's an important question. What if we could find a morally acceptable way to prevent this lifelong struggle for future people? We can't even start to know what we don't know if we don't ask this question.

 

I personally doubt it is steroids, most certainly not just steroids. Many major deviations in neurological/mental/emotional or physical development are caused not by one single thing (tho that does happen), but by a convergence of multiple factors.

 

Regardless, asking why should not be an accusatory question. I would never blame a mother bc her kid is transgender. Yes, I think something is going on internally with that child, but I don't think it is her fault. I don't think having a bipolar child is the parents fault. I don't think having a child born with physical deformities is their parents fault. And so forth. Millions of children are likely born under similiar situations and raised similiar and do not present in this manner. This is why I think it is likely not one thing that causes it, but multiple things. Maybe they have some genetic switch that flips when multiple triggers converge. Idk. No one knows. But I don't think asking why and doing valid research into why is a mean or cruel question.

 

Asking this question does not mean we should treat someone badly. We ask this question for many anomalies and it does not mean we don't care for and live people suffering those anomalies.

Before I dig out links on what has been found, are you aware there have been many studies on this and while still a young topic there are some answers.

 

If you are really interested I will start digging them out.

 

I am on my phone so any links may be mobile, just an FYI.

[Χά�ων]

Which I already addressed in my post that you quoted:

 

 

"Her sexual orientation does have to do with whether her spouse physically presents as a man or a woman and whether she will accept a change in that appearance, though."

I wanted to clarify it further, if that makes sense. It is an issue that is deep and highly personal, I would hate for anyone reading to assume that because she could not accept the transition does not mean it is a universal problem for all spouses in this situation.

 

I do hope I am making sense. :)

[ktgrok]

Saying that I think a famous person is making something up is not hateful or hurtful.  I think a lot of famous people make stuff up for various reasons.  Also, everyone who thinks they are a Christian, isn't one.  Just because one was born in America or goes to church every Sunday doesn't automatically make one a Christian.  You have to have accepted Jesus into your heart and do your best to follow the teachings of the Bible.

 

Do people really think a man is going to cut off his testicals and grow breasts just to get media attention????

[TranquilMind]

I don't think there was anything sudden about it.

 

He said he has always felt female. Maybe he finally decided he was sick and tired of living a lie, and he wanted to live out his golden years the way he always wanted to be, which was as a woman.

 

I believe he was born the way he is right now and only hid it due to the social stigma involved with publicly admitting how he really felt.

 

Obviously, you can disagree with me.

I do disagree with you.

He may have always felt female.  His behavior certainly belies that feeling as he fathered six children with three different wives.  I've always felt like I am the owner of a mansion on the beach, down deep. Neither of us are grounded in reality on those respective scores, though we may fondly wish it. 

 

I guess I wonder why this particular sort of pronouncement can only be met with absolute approval and agreement, instead of skepticism or concern, as one can be expected to meet any other sort of pronouncement that contradicts reality. 

 

[TranquilMind]

I think it is okay to ask what is causing this. Saying they are born that way doesn't explain why this abnormality (for lack of a better word) has developed in these people. It's an important question. What if we could find a morally acceptable way to prevent this lifelong struggle for future people? We can't even start to know what we don't know if we don't ask this question.

 

I personally doubt it is steroids, most certainly not just steroids. Many major deviations in neurological/mental/emotional or physical development are caused not by one single thing (tho that does happen), but by a convergence of multiple factors.

 

Regardless, asking why should not be an accusatory question. I would never blame a mother bc her kid is transgender. Yes, I think something is going on internally with that child, but I don't think it is her fault. I don't think having a bipolar child is the parents fault. I don't think having a child born with physical deformities is their parents fault. And so forth. Millions of children are likely born under similiar situations and raised similiar and do not present in this manner. This is why I think it is likely not one thing that causes it, but multiple things. Maybe they have some genetic switch that flips when multiple triggers converge. Idk. No one knows. But I don't think asking why and doing valid research into why is a mean or cruel question.

 

Asking this question does not mean we should treat someone badly. We ask this question for many anomalies and it does not mean we don't care for and live people suffering those anomalies.

This. 

[TranquilMind]

That is true for all the cisgender straight people who abandon their children and/or have extra martial affairs, get married several times and so on. Straight, cisgender people are not morally superior.

Um, who said they were? Reality isn't either one is transgender OR one has affairs and dishonors his marriage, and no one ever said so. 

[BrookValley.]

Doing what one feels like doing can have far reaching painful consequences for many people in one's life.

I guess you've never made any mistakes in choosing previous partners?

 

Maybe he married those women because he loved them? And maybe it didn't work out because life is messy? And people change? And because sometimes, when we really get comfortable enough to reflect on ourselves, we just aren't the same person we were 10 years ago or 10 months ago?

 

Relationships dissolving is often messy, painful business, regardless of gender, orientation, or otherwise. It's part of being *human,* and doesn't always reflect a moral failing on one or both parties.

[albeto.]

I guess I wonder why this particular sort of pronouncement can only be met with absolute approval and agreement, instead of skepticism or concern, as one can be expected to meet any other sort of pronouncement that contradicts reality. 

 

Clearly that's not the case. This thread illustrates that if nothing else. 

 

But it is increasingly met with approval because information modifies our sense of ethics. 

[TranquilMind]

The one thing I don't get about Bruce Jenner....I mean he seems like a really nice guy....is that he basically walked away from his other kids when he married Kris.  I'm guessing she played a part, but still.  His second wife also said she gave up alimony and child support when they divorced.  I wonder if she thought he would fly off for a sex change and never be heard from again.

 

I wonder if his whole transition is part of what seems to be to me his hands-off parenting to his youngest daughter.....who seems to have been basically without a parent the past two years.  

 

His second wife Linda Thompson's letter/statement is an interesting read.  I'll also say....Elvis, Bruce Jenner, David Foster....dang.... that's some line up. ;)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/linda-thompson/bruce-jenner-linda-thompson_b_7080918.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

That was interesting.

So eerie, how she told Elvis, with whom she was in a relationship, that she would marry Bruce Jenner some day, and he replies, "Over my dead body."   Ahhh. 

 

I do feel sorry for the kids.  They should never be burdened with all of that trauma. 

[TranquilMind]

Clearly that's not the case. This thread illustrates that if nothing else. 

 

But it is increasingly met with approval because information modifies our sense of ethics. 

Let's just say that those who do not approve and wholeheartedly embrace this sort of declaration uncritically had better keep their mouths shut if they are in the public arena today. 

 

Look what happened because of a casual comment in Indiana, by a pizza worker, when the business didn't even DO weddings.  Someone threatened to torch them, and they were closed down and forced to hide out for awhile. 

[TranquilMind]

I guess you've never made any mistakes in choosing previous partners?

 

Maybe he married those women because he loved them? And maybe it didn't work out because life is messy? And people change? And because sometimes, when we really get comfortable enough to reflect on ourselves, we just aren't the same person we were 10 years ago or 10 months ago?

 

Relationships dissolving is often messy, painful business, regardless of gender, orientation, or otherwise. It's part of being *human,* and doesn't always reflect a moral failing on one or both parties.

Love is a decision, not a feeling.  

 

Who suffers when adults decide they have to be happy, everyone else be damned?    The kids.  Always the kids.  That's what bothers me. 

[albeto.]

Let's just say that those who do not approve and wholeheartedly embrace this sort of declaration uncritically had better keep their mouths shut in the public arena today. 

 

People with all kinds of beliefs keep their mouths shut in the public arena today because the beliefs are no longer accepted by society in general.

 

Look what happened because of a casual comment in Indiana, by a pizza worker, when the business didn't even DO weddings.  Someone threatened to torch them, and they were closed down and forced to hide out for awhile. 

 

Anyone who stands on the front lines of battle risks taking a hit. 

[BrookValley.]

Let's just say that those who do not approve and wholeheartedly embrace this sort of declaration uncritically had better keep their mouths shut if they are in the public arena today. 

 

Look what happened because of a casual comment in Indiana, by a pizza worker, when the business didn't even DO weddings.  Someone threatened to torch them, and they were closed down and forced to hide out for awhile. 

 

 

I'd like to know where it's anyone's business to "approve" anyone else's declaration of gender, sexuality, etc. 

[Joanne]

I think she means "why didn't Bruce at least marry women who liked feminine men/who would be okay with him transitioning".

 

My guesses:

 

1) They're not as easy to find (I suspect)

2) He didn't really accept himself as trans and maybe wanted to have a wife who'd keep him masculine

 

Adding:

 

Because he was trans at a time when a community, a vernacular, and a support was not only non-existent but was **hostile**.

 

He was a celebrity and quintessential "man" prototype - adding to the social pressure.

 

Same reasons that he is probably still using male pronouns.

[BrookValley.]

DP

[BrookValley.]

People with all kinds of beliefs keep their mouths shut in the public arena today because the beliefs are no longer accepted by society in general.

 

 

Anyone who stands on the front lines of battle risks taking a hit. 

 

This. And these beliefs are increasingly unacceptable in the public arena because those who are the target of such comments as "I don't believe in [transgender, gay, etc.]" and "I don't approve" are speaking up and saying hey, that hurts. Also, because those speaking up are bringing more awareness to suicide among LGBT persons--especially teens--and part of reducing those numbers is having people accept people as who they are. Those comments are not accepting of people as who they are, and THEY HURT PEOPLE. Kids are dying. So yeah, it's increasingly unacceptable for kids to feel that suicide is their only option because it's *that* hard to be who you were born to be? Sorry, not sorry.

[BrookValley.]

Love is a decision, not a feeling.  

 

Who suffers when adults decide they have to be happy, everyone else be damned?    The kids.  Always the kids.  That's what bothers me. 

 

Yes. Kids suffer. See my post above this one about how kids suffer in an environment where being transgendered or gay is not "approved" and is considered some sort of defect or moral failing.

[TranquilMind]

People with all kinds of beliefs keep their mouths shut in the public arena today because the beliefs are no longer accepted by society in general.

 

 

Anyone who stands on the front lines of battle risks taking a hit. 

But traditional beliefs ARE accepted by society.  Just not by bullies who try to silence them.  I say let Bruce speak (I actually like Bruce Jenner a lot) and let anyone else speak.  We can listen to whomever we wish.  I'm not so insecure that I need to silence opposing viewpoints, as the bullies out there are today.  Never have been. 

 

For example, I was present when the Westboro people targeted a local synagogue.  After they spoke, I counterprotested.  That's what this country is all about. 

I think there are more people like me. 

[TranquilMind]

Yes. Kids suffer. See my post above this one about how kids suffer in an environment where being transgendered or gay is not "approved" and is considered some sort of defect or moral failing.

I'm talking about the children who are victims of the adults raising them - their parents - chasing their "happiness" with serial partners. 

 

. 

[Free]

That is certainly true. And I wouldn't call either a hero.

 

How can it be anything but heroic, when any public figure comes out to reveal something so deeply personal, giving courage and strength to people (especially young people) who are struggling with shame and depression and maybe even saving lives?

 

[TranquilMind]

This. And these beliefs are increasingly unacceptable in the public arena because those who are the target of such comments as "I don't believe in [transgender, gay, etc.]" and "I don't approve" are speaking up and saying hey, that hurts. Also, because those speaking up are bringing more awareness to suicide among LGBT persons--especially teens--and part of reducing those numbers is having people accept people as who they are. Those comments are not accepting of people as who they are, and THEY HURT PEOPLE. Kids are dying. So yeah, it's increasingly unacceptable for kids to feel that suicide is their only option because it's *that* hard to be who you were born to be? Sorry, not sorry.

It SHOULD be unacceptable for anyone to feel that suicide is the only option. 

You are assuming the "Born that way" part because that is the constantly repeated rhetoric in the political realm, not because it is proven in any way.  This is to be accepted uncritically, unlike all other things.  

 

This is where I think, "Sorry, not sorry" is more appropriate. 

 

Do what you want.  But you cannot demand that others embrace it unquestioningly.  (This is an issue entirely apart from how ALL others should be treated, which is with respect. Do not confuse the two issues.) 

[TranquilMind]

How can it be anything but heroic, when any public figure comes out to reveal something so deeply personal, giving courage and strength to people (especially young people) who are struggling with shame and depression and maybe even saving lives?

 

To me, it is much more heroic when a man (or woman) comes out to reveal that he made a vow his wife (or her husband) and honored it for 75 (or 50, or 30 - however long the other lives) years, despite how he/she felt every second along the way.  He put his children and their stability above himself.  That's a real hero.  If you think every single one of them was ecstatic every single moment of life, well, we are all human, and others annoy us.  Love is a decision. 

 

Those heroes are few and far between today. 

[BrookValley.]

But traditional beliefs ARE accepted by society.  Just not by bullies who try to silence them.  I say let Bruce speak (I actually like Bruce Jenner a lot) and let anyone else speak.  We can listen to whomever we wish.  I'm not so insecure that I need to silence opposing viewpoints, as the bullies out there are today.  Never have been. 

 

For example, I was present when the Westboro people targeted a local synagogue.  After they spoke, I counterprotested.  That's what this country is all about. 

I think there are more people like me. 

 

How is it being a "bully trying to silence them" if you speak up against bigotry and say "this hurts me [my kid, my partner, my loved one, my friend"?

 

It's not. The whole "I'm being bullied!" line is getting old. This is not bullying. This is people telling others that they are hurting people.

[mathnerd]

 

His second wife Linda Thompson's letter/statement is an interesting read.  I'll also say....Elvis, Bruce Jenner, David Foster....dang.... that's some line up. ;)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/linda-thompson/bruce-jenner-linda-thompson_b_7080918.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

 

Admittedly, I have NOT seen the interview (I am staying away from that family's TV shows on principle). There are a lot of headlines about how "genuine" Jenner is and how he is a "hero" etc to the LGBT community. I read that article you linked yesterday and I have to say that I am somewhat repelled by him - according to his second wife, he knowingly married her without disclosing his intention to transition into a woman. She even says that she would not have married him at all had she known about it. And she talks about her own personal heartbreak and devastation when she was forced to deal with his issues. And then, he walked out of his sons' lives and did not pay child support or alimony (however much Kris gets blamed, in the end, he has to take responsibility for his actions).

Not sounding heroic at all to me. (I have no problems with his transition, everyone has free will to do what they wish and I wish him well, and I am only commenting on the screw up that his relationship with his kids and his ex wife are and how he cheated them of a happy life)

[TranquilMind]

I'd like to know where it's anyone's business to "approve" anyone else's declaration of gender, sexuality, etc. 

Really?  Do you even watch the news? People are now losing jobs because they believe in traditional marriage, when once upon a time, that was unthinkable, because that is the way the world worked, we knew then. 

[BrookValley.]

It SHOULD be unacceptable for anyone to feel that suicide is the only option. 

You are assuming the "Born that way" part because that is the constantly repeated rhetoric in the political realm, not because it is proven in any way.  This is to be accepted uncritically, unlike all other things.  

 

This is where I think, "Sorry, not sorry" is more appropriate. 

 

Do what you want.  But you cannot demand that others embrace it unquestioningly.  (This is an issue entirely apart from how ALL others should be treated, which is with respect. Do not confuse the two issues.) 

 

The bolded is absolutely BS, on all counts.

 

Tell me you weren't born straight and cisgendered. Tell me you chose to be a straight woman (assuming you're a woman, here, because the majority of us are here on the forum).

 

Show me some legitimate, scientific research that says people choose these things just because they feel like it.

 

Please tell me how you know I wasn't born with my sexual orientation and that I chose it. I'd LOVE you tell me how you know this about me.

[albeto.]

But traditional beliefs ARE accepted by society.  Just not by bullies who try to silence them.  I say let Bruce speak (I actually like Bruce Jenner a lot) and let anyone else speak.  We can listen to whomever we wish.  I'm not so insecure that I need to silence opposing viewpoints, as the bullies out there are today.  Never have been. 

 

For example, I was present when the Westboro people targeted a local synagogue.  After they spoke, I counterprotested.  That's what this country is all about. 

I think there are more people like me. 

 

Being held accountable by the public for questionable morals should never be confused with attempted silenced by force. 

 

The fact that you protested WBC illustrates this very concept. 

 

Many traditional beliefs are accepted by society. And many have been modified. And some are undergoing modification in a very public way currently. It's how civilizations evolve and progress. 

[Joanne]

Really?  Do you even watch the news? People are now losing jobs because they believe in traditional marriage, when once upon a time, that was unthinkable, because that is the way the world worked, we knew then. 

 

"People are losing jobs" is hyperbole.

 

They are losing jobs/business because they want to use their jobs/business to assert their view on the consuming public; not because they have their beliefs.

[MrsBasil]

People with all kinds of beliefs keep their mouths shut in the public arena today because the beliefs are no longer accepted by society in general.

 

 

Anyone who stands on the front lines of battle risks taking a hit. 

 

No.  Death threats and property threats are not OK even when aimed at ignorance.  That's disgusting.

 

 

ETA: Nothing.  Thought better of it.

[albeto.]

Really?  Do you even watch the news? People are now losing jobs because they believe in traditional marriage, when once upon a time, that was unthinkable, because that is the way the world worked, we knew then. 

 

People are losing jobs because they advocate an increasingly unpopular and problematic value system, a system that inspires oppression in many forms. 

 

Funny how that whole, "let the people decide" thing works both ways. 

[albeto.]

No.  Death threats and property threats are not OK even when aimed at ignorance.  That's disgusting.

 

 

Often I agree with you, but I'm putting you on ignore effective now for that stance. 

 

:laugh: