SKL Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I don't begrudge it, but I don't feel like the reaction here is balanced. From the comments one would think it was the teen who was yelling and freaking out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I don't begrudge it, but I don't feel like the reaction here is balanced. From the comments one would think it was the teen who was yelling and freaking out. I think you're exaggerating the OP's reaction. Yelling to slow down doesn't mean freaking out or screaming hysterically. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I think you're exaggerating the OP's reaction. Yelling to slow down doesn't mean freaking out or screaming hysterically. I could understand getting scared and raising her voice in the moment of danger. What I don't understand is the behavior later at the round-about. At that point the mom wasn't instructing but rather brow-beating IMO. I only hope this is not going to be her teaching style going forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I could understand getting scared and raising her voice in the moment of danger. What I don't understand is the behavior later at the round-about. At that point the mom wasn't instructing but rather brow-beating IMO. I only hope this is not going to be her teaching style going forward. SKL, I think you're being too hard on our OP. She understands that what happened was not the most effective teaching style and it's obvious she wants to avoid such conflict in the future. Pax. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I think this is one of those times, like war or childbirth, that you can't possibly know what you'd do in a situation until you are sitting in two tons of metal with a child at the wheel. April I don't begrudge you any panicked yelling on your part, lol This. I know it's obnoxiously condescending of me (so no need to point that out, y'all, unless it makes you feel better), but I'm laughing my head off at some of the deep analysis provided by posters who have never taught their own offspring to drive. I hope the OP is laughing, too, and listening to those who have BTDT. It was one bad day, adjustments must be made, but the daughter will learn to grow up and drive properly. It'll happen. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 This. I know it's obnoxiously condescending of me (so no need to point that out, y'all, unless it makes you feel better), but I'm laughing my head off at some of the deep analysis provided by posters who have never taught their own offspring to drive. I hope the OP is laughing, too, and listening to those who have BTDT. It was one bad day, adjustments must be made, but the daughter will learn to grow up and drive properly. It'll happen. It's not condescending, but I do think that I have a lot of memories of my teen years because I was in control of a lot of my life then. Like college applications, high school schedules, AP testing, SATs, learning to drive. I did all that. I signed up for those classes, I made those decisions. So when I give advice in those areas, I am hearkening back to what I was able to do in my teen years, what I felt was just at those times. When I see posts on here, such as about driving, AP courses, Running Start, etc. it is familiar to me because that was not so long ago for me and it is fresh in my mind. It's not like a strange, foreign landscape. The reason I'm posting this is not to defend SKL's post because frankly though we have a lot in common in some ways, I totally disagree with her on this one. I'm posting to say, there are two perspectives on teen parenting: the ex-teen perspective in which you remember clearly what you thought, why you made certain decisions, and the environment, and that was part of the person you are now. In this case, my teen self was yelled at a few times in the car and my teen self processed as the following: "This is a big deal. My mom never sounded that upset or freaked out." And my mom remembers it, too. This wasn't in some other era. It was the 1990s. The main difference was that we had cheaper heroin (not me, personally), no airbags in the beater cars, and fewer people took APs. It wasn't like some magical era way back when that does not relate to today. You still had to take out loans. APs used to mean something, kids! (Joking, they still do.) Seriously though, that's where I'm coming from. I take a strict view because there are some things I think my mom could have done better on. There are things I could do better. Making me take responsibility as a teenager and FORCING me to see the natural consequences of my actions, to the point that she was willing to see me go to a homeless shelter if that was what it took to knock some sense into me, willing to send me off to college without a driver's license if I could only manage admission and not a license, was a part of that. I remember her words--"I gave you over to god when you were little because I had to and that was something I had to do repeatedly throughout your life, because trying to control it was driving me crazy, but I couldn't let you go without thinking there was someone taking care of you." She's not religious. It was part of her getting sober. But she was right--you have to let go of your kids and let them work out their adulthood themselves. You can't make it for them. Trying to do that leads to dependent adults--and not in a good way, but in a "I can't make this decision myself" way. So, it's true, I haven't taught a child to drive. But I remember very clearly being that child, I remember my mother's advice and how she looked at me, knowing it really was up to me to make these things happen. That it wasn't about me and mom. It was about me and the world and how I chose to relate to it. That was a critical part of my growing up and being able to deal with life because I am a naturally lazy, distracted person. And I want that to be something my kids get from me, too. The right to grow up in the world and figure it out and not have me be the rule-maker forever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 She did second-guess the mom's first instruction to slow down. She stated "matter-of-factly" that she was driving at the speed limit. I interpret this to mean that she assumed her mom thought she was speeding, and she wanted to point out that she was not speeding. Shortly thereafter she learned for herself why a slower speed was appropriate. Lesson learned. The mom probably didn't need to holler at this point, so the daugther's reaction "moooom" to further yelling does not sound too unreasonable IMO. Other than that I don't see where the daughter made another sound. i think that context is very important. This is done in the context of teaching a teen how to drive and within a parent-child relationship. I'm thinking maybe you have never ridden as a front seat passenger with a new driver - it is nerve wracking when they are doing it well and can be downright terrifying when they are not. There is something about the teen years that causes teens to think that they know more than they do about well, everything, including driving. Not only that, they tend to think that adults don't know as much as they know. Because we were not there, we must trust the OP that the teen was driving unsafely and that she did not follow instructions nor indicate that she intended to do so. The teen was having an "I know better than you know" moment that could have killed her and her mother, and the mother knew this. Stating that the mother "probably didn't need to holler at his point" is not helpful because you don't know - you weren't there, you don't know this child or her parent. I have been in several car accidents (I lost count after number 9) that were not my fault over the course of my life - I think I have some sort of target on me. Trust me, you don't want to be in a car accident that you can prevent. If this "lesson learned" as you put it, had come at the expense of a serious injury or death to someone, then it would have been tragic. While driving, you can kill someone in the blink of an eye. It's that serious. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 FTR I have taught driving to teens as well. (But the hairiest experience was teaching my friend from India to drive - because she already knew how to drive - in India. Story for another day. :P ) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 i think that context is very important. This is done in the context of teaching a teen how to drive and within a parent-child relationship. I'm thinking maybe you have never ridden as a front seat passenger with a new driver - it is nerve wracking when they are doing it well and can be downright terrifying when they are not. There is something about the teen years that causes teens to think that they know more than they do about well, everything, including driving. Not only that, they tend to think that adults don't know as much as they know. Because we were not there, we must trust the OP that the teen was driving unsafely and that she did not follow instructions nor indicate that she intended to do so. The teen was having an "I know better than you know" moment that could have killed her and her mother, and the mother knew this. Stating that the mother "probably didn't need to holler at his point" is not helpful because you don't know - you weren't there, you don't know this child or her parent. I have been in several car accidents (I lost count after number 9) that were not my fault over the course of my life - I think I have some sort of target on me. Trust me, you don't want to be in a car accident that you can prevent. If this "lesson learned" as you put it, had come at the expense of a serious injury or death to someone, then it would have been tragic. While driving, you can kill someone in the blink of an eye. It's that serious. The quote you cut that from was in response to the allegation that the teen was yelling at her mom. I wasn't saying the teen acted perfectly, I was just saying it didn't sound to me like she was yelling. I thought it was odd that nobody seemed to think the mom overreacted but everyone thought the teen was an obnoxious monster because she said "I'm going the speed limit." Saying "she didn't appear to be yelling at her mom" does not equal "oh well, who cares if anyone dies." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 The quote you cut that from was in response to the allegation that the teen was yelling at her mom. I wasn't saying the teen acted perfectly, I was just saying it didn't sound to me like she was yelling. I thought it was odd that nobody seemed to think the mom overreacted but everyone thought the teen was an obnoxious monster because she said "I'm going the speed limit." Saying "she didn't appear to be yelling at her mom" does not equal "oh well, who cares if anyone dies." No, the quote I cut out is below, where you said that the mother "probably didn't need to holler..." and "lesson learned." I was speaking to your interpretation of the events - deciding what the mother didn't need to do and, quite frankly, downplaying the possible consequences of the daughter's actions. I just re-read the OP and I don't see where the daughter yelled at the mom. She did second-guess the mom's first instruction to slow down. She stated "matter-of-factly" that she was driving at the speed limit. I interpret this to mean that she assumed her mom thought she was speeding, and she wanted to point out that she was not speeding. Shortly thereafter she learned for herself why a slower speed was appropriate. Lesson learned. The mom probably didn't need to holler at this point, so the daugther's reaction "moooom" to further yelling does not sound too unreasonable IMO. Other than that I don't see where the daughter made another sound. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 No, the quote I cut out is below, where you said that the mother "probably didn't need to holler..." and "lesson learned." I was speaking to your interpretation of the events - deciding what the mother didn't need to do and, quite frankly, downplaying the possible consequences of the daughter's actions. The first sentence of my post was the topic sentence. Yes, I also expressed an opinion about the yelling. So shoot me. I believe yelling at an inexperienced driver in a stressful situation is dangerous and can cause accidents, so no, I am not trying to downplay the possible consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 The first sentence of my post was the topic sentence. Yes, I also expressed an opinion about the yelling. So shoot me. I believe yelling at an inexperienced driver in a stressful situation is dangerous and can cause accidents, so no, I am not trying to downplay the possible consequences. Which is fine, but the topic of my post was that context is important. In this case, the context was a dangerous driving situation, a mother and an immature teen daughter. Each one of those words is important - dangerous, driving, mother, immature, teen, daughter. The context is not only the driving, but the relationship and the maturity level of the daughter. While I agree that yelling at a driver can be dangerous, the fact is that it can also save lives. This is why context is important - you weren't there and you don't know the parties involved. The OP was there and reacted based on the context of the situation. She knows her daughter intimately and unless she's an unusual parent, that knowledge figured into her reaction. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Which is fine, but the topic of my post was that context is important. In this case, the context was a dangerous driving situation, a mother and an immature teen daughter. Each one of those words is important - dangerous, driving, mother, immature, teen, daughter. The context is not only the driving, but the relationship and the maturity level of the daughter. While I agree that yelling at a driver can be dangerous, the fact is that it can also save lives. This is why context is important - you weren't there and you don't know the parties involved. The OP was there and reacted based on the context of the situation. She knows her daughter intimately and unless she's an unusual parent, that knowledge figured into her reaction. This. Sometimes it is more dangerous not to yell. If I had not yelled at DH when he was looking elsewhere after we went through an intersection, he would not have noticed that the car in front of us had suddenly stalled. I startled him—but it would have been much more startling if we would have rear-ended the other vehicle. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I don't think I would be upset, or offended at her behavior, or in a "punishing" mood. I would just take her actions and attitude as a sign that she is not ready to be an independent driver or get her license. Tell her that you have given it much thought and that her actions in the driver's seat and her reaction toward your chastising showed a lack of maturity and that she will need a bit more time and experience behind the wheel supervised before she can take her driver test. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplemom Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 This post came vividly to my mind yesterday. I was driving on the interstate, in light fog with moderate-light rain, watching out for potholes in various places (result of the 2 ice/snow episodes the past few weeks). There was moderate traffic. I was going 60, slowing down here in there for rough asphalt patches or thicker areas of traffic. My 8yo leaned in his seat to peep at my odometer and saw I was going 60mph. He firmly announced, "Mom, the speed limit is 70, you can go faster." Everything about this thread raced quickly through my mind. Even though he is only 8 (going on 20, lol), I took the moment to explain to him about adjusting speed for safety, mentioning some things from the comments in this thread about driving safety. It dawned on me we should teach our dc about driver safety long before a driving permit is in hand. ETA: I sound like a model safety driver, but ds does occassionally tell me I'm going too fast when I am going above the speed limit! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Honestly, I think you are completely wrong about “what needs to happen.†The first thing I would do would be to let it rest for a week or two. Taking a few days to get over someone shouting at you while you are driving is perfectly normal in full grown, emotionally secure adults. Adjusting for teenage biology and psychology, give her about 10 days to return to equilibrium. You honestly can’t call it “holding a grudge†an hour later. That’s ridiculous. I don’t think she owes you an apology. Here’s what happened: Two women were driving together, one is teaching the other to drive. The passenger/teacher advised the driver that she should slow down due to fog. The driver heard and understood the advice, and chose a speed that seemed good to her. Later, she learned something about her reaction times in fog by encountering a pothole – aptly illustrating what her passenger/teacher was trying to teach about going slower in foggy conditions. Shortly after that, the speed limit changed and the passenger stopped teaching and began having an emotional reaction to feeling unsafe in the vehicle. By shouting at a novice driver, the passenger became a distraction to the driver. The passenger barked out unnecessary instructions loudly and aggressively instead of telling the driver that she was frightened. At this point, everyone was upset and not very rational. The passenger tried to ‘teach’ something to the driver, but, of course, being upset she taught poorly and aggressively – and the driver, also upset, probably learned nothing. Feeling mistreated, the driver expressed this in a passive-aggressive way by driving in an exaggeratedly safe manner, which probably also served to help settle her nerves (both because it was slow, and because she could be reasonably sure that there would be no reason that she would get yelled at again). None the less, the passenger eventually decided that the only way she could feel calm was to take control of the vehicle herself, which, since she owned the vehicle, was perfectly reasonable. When these two women arrived home, the one who had been shouting thought the two of them should watch TV together, but the one who had been yelled at and been kicked out of the driver’s seat preferred not to. She was hurt and angry and not in a mood to socialize and pretend that the incident had no significance. The one who had done the yelling then insisted that not only was the incident ‘over’ but that she wanted the original driver to make an apology, and that thereafter they could pretend that the incident didn’t matter any more. Certainly, the original driver did not see it this way, and chose to spend some time by herself instead. After being left alone to watch TV without an apology, the teacher/passenger changed her mind and decided that this was indeed a significant event. She can’t seem to figure out if this is a safety issue or an apology issue. If it’s a safety issue, there is no reason to imagine that a conversation will make the driver safer, so the solution is not a solution that applies to that problem. To increase driving safety, the driver needs to actually learn and apply driving skills, not conversational skills. --- So, myself, what I would do, is assess whether I had learned anything from this incident, and whether I thought that I could reliably feel safe and keep my temper in foggy conditions at 50mph. If I thought I could, I might continue in my previous plan of being willing to teach my daughter to drive. If I didn’t think I could count on myself for that, I would not be willing to teach my daughter to drive, because I wouldn’t consider myself a safe instructor. My daughter would have to find another way to learn to drive. (I would tell her that, with regret, and let her know that I considered my inability to cope with that unsafe feeling normal, but that I wished I was better at it, for her sake. I’d try to slightly help her find another reasonable way to learn to drive, but I wouldn’t take responsibility for it.) If I assessed that I was (now) able to be a suitable instructor for her, after the situation had settled for a few weeks, I’d let her know that I was thinking about doing some more driver training with her, but that – since things went so wrong last time – I have some ground rules planned. I’d affirm to her that she knows it is my car, and that she knows that the reason she needs me in it is because I am meant her teacher and advisor. That’s why learner’s permits exist. Therefore, if she wants to do her learning on my car, she needs to agree to do so under my advice, and that I require immediate compliance with any suggestion I make. If, at any time, she does not want to comply with my suggestions, she is free to safely pull over and stop driving my vehicle instead of following my advice. She can also pull over for a pause to hash-out what she thinks of the advice and why I gave it, and seek more information about my suggestions. Either by my training, or by some other way of learning to drive, I would have to believe that my daughter had actually changed her mind about the relationship low visibility conditions and speed limits – before I consented to continuing to facilitate her driving at all (or consenting for her to test for a full license). Her ability to listen to your suggestions as an instructor will keep her safe with an instructor in the car, for as long as she has a learner’s permit. Her own personal opinion about fog will keep her safe or unsafe for the entire rest of her driving future – including when/if she ends up booting around in her 20’s and 30’s with your grandchildren in the back seat. A good teacher will be able to teach her that: whether it is you or someone else. If you only teach her ‘while I am in the car, you have to listen to me’ – that stops well short of creating a good driver. As for appropriate consequences: since she offended, frightened and upset the owner of the car that she likes to drive, a natural consequence is that the owner of that car would spend some amount of time not wanting to repeat that. You don’t have to lend her your car. You don’t have to be her instructor. Those are personal choices, and they are completely up to you. If and when I was ready to resume, I’d do so. In the meantime I’d answer all requests to drive with, “No.†and, to, “Why not?†– the answer would be that it’s not her car, and even if it was, she doesn’t have a driver’s license. That “I†had a hard time last time “I†tried to teach her, and ended up losing my temper, and that I just really didn’t like it and am not sure I want to do it anymore. She would probably want to know how long this ‘punishment’ would last. If so, it’s time for her to learn that when a person is upset with you, they are not punishing you, they are just being themselves, being upset, because their feelings are real. It’s ok for moms to have feelings and make decisions based on their own comfort and discomfort – without really knowing how long it will take them to get comfortable again. This is a much more realistic way to frame the actual, consequences of her choices. Reducing it to the idea of a planned-and-applied consequence would actually interfere with her learning lessons like: “Even if it’s legal, some kinds of driving cause genuine fear in your passengers.†And “Don’t bite the hand that feeds you.†– Real life, and real relationships, will teach those things very effectively through this situation. Two women, driving together? Really? This wasn't Thelma and Louise...(which, spoiler alert, turned out badly for both of them.) A mom-daughter relationship is much more complicated than 2 women driving together. Add in an inexperienced driver with a not-untypical "I got this" attitude when she really didn't have it and dangerous driving, I can understand mom getting upset. I feel like they need a cooling off period from lessons and a chance to make some new ground rules. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Two women, driving together? Really? This wasn't Thelma and Louise...(which, spoiler alert, turned out badly for both of them.) A mom-daughter relationship is much more complicated than 2 women driving together. Add in an inexperienced driver with a not-untypical "I got this" attitude when she really didn't have it and dangerous driving, I can understand mom getting upset. I feel like they need a cooling off period from lessons and a chance to make some new ground rules. I agree -- and the dd isn't a "woman;" she is an inexperienced (and apparently immature) teenager with an attitude problem. And April did mention that the dd has behaved in the same way when her dh was in the car with her, so this is clearly not just a "two women" kind of thing, whatever that is supposed to mean. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 I think this is one of those times, like war or childbirth, that you can't possibly know what you'd do in a situation until you are sitting in two tons of metal with a child at the wheel. April I don't begrudge you any panicked yelling on your part, lol :iagree: And teaching your own teen to drive is entirely different from teaching someone else's kid to drive, because things are a whole lot more important to us when it's our own child's life that's on the line. It's easy to try to fault April, but I think a few people are rewriting history and trying to turn her into some sort of hysterical and irrational mother who messed with her dd's head and got the poor kid all upset, when that doesn't appear to have been the case at all. Personally, I think April did the right thing and the fact that her dd has acted similarly when her dh was in the car with her adds even more credibility to my belief that the dd was the person at fault in the situation. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 All I meant by the "two women" comment was that it's illogical to expect a teen (who views herself as a woman by now) to enjoy sharing TV, and automatically be the one to apologize after this conflict. It is (yes, definitely, I get that) relevant to many parts of the situation that one "woman" was a young woman, and the other was her mother -- but not to the point I was (apparently, badly) attempting to aim at: whether the teen was "holding a grudge" and whether she owed an apology, and whether the apology (if owed) was already running late at 1 hour after they arrived home. By seeing the daughter as another human being, I hoped the mom would be able to tell that the expectation of instant contrition, restoration, and normal social behaviour was unreasonable after a significant conflict involving yelling. When "two women" get to the point of yelling, they usually cool off and sort it out over the course of a few days (or more) before beginning again to hang out as usual. In this, the daughter is more average than the mother in her post-conflict behaviour. I wanted the mother to recognize that and make space for it, without thinking of it as an unusual-personality-flaw amount of grudge-holding and apology-refusal. I went there because there was that whole list of "what needed to happen" -- which was substantively about the restoration of the relationship (though apologies and affirmations of who was right/wrong, stopping the bad attitude, etc) and not about where and how the daughter was going to improve her driving skills and become safe. I wanted to shift the perspective from "fixing the offense in the relationship" to "fixing the bad judgement while driving." Sorry for the confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 OH HECK NO. She wouldn't be driving for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllll Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimm Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I'm feeling cranky tonight, so that is affecting my response. I feel like I would take away the keys and inform her that she has proven she does not have the maturity to handle a vehicle that can in fact cause people's deaths if handled incorrectly, badly, or immaturely. She would wait a very long time before she would be permitted to drive again, and her attitude would definitely have to come around. This. One of my brothers wrecked three cars before he was 18. (All cars were purchased by him.) My sister got her license at 18 and totaled her car ten days later. And another a month after that. And got in a third wreck that didn't total the car but it needed work within a month after that. I knew before my sister got her license that she was too immature and irresponsible to be driving but she was an adult and not my child so there was obviously nothing I could do about it (and my mother enables her by buying her all these vehicles... don't get me started). If you see warning signs that your child is an unsafe driver and too immature to handle driving, PLEASE for her sake, your own sake, and the sake of everyone else on the road, do not let her drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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