albeto. Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Would anyone be interested in representing this book in a kind of book study here? While I don't much care for the idea of promoting faith for children, I do recognize it's a common and valued practice. What I don't like is setting them up to be heartbroken, and I can't help but see a book like this would do just that. In any case, it sounds like it's simply a poor education model (as in it builds up straw men to triumphantly knock down), but that may be because I'm not familiar with it. Also, the idea of atheism requiring faith boggles my mind, and I want to know what that's all about. If so, I'd like to maybe agree to a few common points before hand. I think assuming intent should be off the table. It gets too easy to assume someone is trying to be insulting or mean. I think if we stick with logical and factual arguments, we'd have a more productive discussion. Also, I think it's fair to assume that at some point faith takes just that - faith. So maybe we could focus on the logical arguments the book promotes rather than anecdotes and personal testimonies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I haven't read the book, but the reviews seem to be excellent. I wouldn't give it to the average child to read, though, mainly because it looks like it's 447 pages long and I think that would be some serious overkill unless it was for a teen who was very interested in the topic. As an adult, I am wondering if the author simply means equates "faith" with "belief." I mean, no matter what we believe in terms of things like an afterlife, none of us truly knows for sure what lies ahead, if anything, because we aren't dead yet. So maybe it's not much different to have faith (belief) that there isn't a God or there isn't an afterlife as it is to have the belief that those things do exist. I haven't read the book, though, so I may be way out in left field! :) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunflowerlady Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 My library has it but it is checked out and not due to be returned until March 17. :thumbdown: If I can't get the book in time, I will definitely follow the discussion, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Albeto, I hope it was OK that I responded to your thread without having read the book! I will probably just lurk from here on in. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Albeto, I hope it was OK that I responded to your thread without having read the book! I will probably just lurk from here on in. :) I've not read the book either, and to be honest, I don't really expect anyone who has read the book is interested or able to represent it fully (time wise, I mean). But maybe a major argument or two the book promotes would be helpful, kwim? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reflections Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I haven't read the book, and I'm not sure I'm willing to commit to the time requirement BUT I might if I understood the premise of the book a bit more. Can you elaborate what this book is about? Based on the amazon reviews the central theme seemed a little murky. Is this a book that is supposed to lead me to understand that the christian faith is more "right" than being an atheist? How does this relate to children specifically - I didn't see where it was an educational resource? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I have a hold on the book at the library. I don't see the benefit of discussing it with people who haven't taken the time to read it - once I've read it, that is. (And I have no idea whether I will like the book or not.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Can you elaborate what this book is about? Based on the amazon reviews the central theme seemed a little murky. Is this a book that is supposed to lead me to understand that the christian faith is more "right" than being an atheist? How does this relate to children specifically - I didn't see where it was an educational resource? I don't know anything about it myself, but this thread raised the topic and while I am desperately curious, I'm afraid to talk on that thread any more! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 I have a hold on the book at the library. I don't see the benefit of discussing it with people who haven't taken the time to read it - once I've read it, that is. (And I have no idea whether I will like the book or not.) For $6 I bought the kindle version. That's the weirdest impulse buy I've ever experienced. :laugh: I guess I can provide bits and pieces as I read through it, but if someone else would rather do so, they probably would provide the gist better than I. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I wouldn't line my cat's litter box with that book. Sorry. I really don't understand why religious people would waste their time trying to understand atheists. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athomeontheprairie Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I am certainly not looking to get into a heated debate, like what happened in the other thread. It's been over a decade since I read the book. the book is about apologetics. It takes a systematic look at the belief in God. he does use faith as a synonym of the word belief (as asserted up thread). the book is not written to children. But for adults as a "proof" for Christianity, and gives reasons why Christianity is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I assume it is a Christian apologetic - ie. yes, it is arguing for the Christian faith in juxtaposition with atheism. I expect that the whole "faith" thing has to do with a belief system - presuppositions included, But. . . I haven't read it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I thought it was an apologetics tool for Christians to use with atheists. Guess I should go read the description and reviews on Amazon. The title is so off putting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I thought it was an apologetics tool for Christians to use with atheists. Guess I should go read the description and reviews on Amazon. The title is so off putting. I think that is what it is about based on the description. It is a very off putting title. I thought it was about something completely different based on the title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I sincerely doubt it is designed for Christians to take the book and buttonhole the nearest atheist. Some Christians do take their own beliefs and scrutinize them in light of other beliefs - it's part of trying to think critically rather than blindly accepting a creed. If it is used with atheists I think it would be in the context of someone who has come into the church who is searching for answers. It may or may not accurately reflect atheistic views (since again, I haven't read it!) but I think the intent is to take major atheistic arguments against Christianity and to form a logical argument against them in light of what the Bible says. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I think that is what it is about based on the description. It is a very off putting title. I thought it was about something completely different based on the title. Same here. The title was no doubt designed to be catchy, but it also seems misleading. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I am interested. I am also interested in this book http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1612917011/ref=pd_aw_sim_b_2?refRID=0WNTJ6JET4W51DZ0XVCZ I am concerned I might be too dense to get it. I am very confused about the entire thing. Who are the atheists they are meeting? Who are the atheists they encounter who go out of their way to dismantle their beliefs? I am may need hand holding to understand why this is needed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Insert comment about this new thread already being down rated. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunflowerlady Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Ah, I see now what happened. I missed the other thread. That's what I get for just hanging out on the Chat Board. I am doing the Nothing New Spending challenge, so I will pass on buying it. :laugh: If my library had it, I'd be up for a reading and discussion. Like I said, I will listen in if there is a study. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Insert comment about this new thread already being down rated. I saw that! :laugh: Well, I do hate to disappoint. ^_^ 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I really don't understand why religious people would waste their time trying to understand atheists. I wish they would spend more time trying to understand atheists and (if their religion is the majority or they've been sheltered) people of other religions. I get so tired of the same old strawmen, the same old nonsense. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 I sincerely doubt it is designed for Christians to take the book and buttonhole the nearest atheist. Some Christians do take their own beliefs and scrutinize them in light of other beliefs - it's part of trying to think critically rather than blindly accepting a creed. If it is used with atheists I think it would be in the context of someone who has come into the church who is searching for answers. It may or may not accurately reflect atheistic views (since again, I haven't read it!) but I think the intent is to take major atheistic arguments against Christianity and to form a logical argument against them in light of what the Bible says. My prediction is that this is written with the doubting Christian in mind. One who is beginning to think critically of their religion's claims, and is afraid to lose their faith (that's a whole 'nuther kettle o' fish), and look for reasons to believe. I'm also guessing it might be popular with parents of children who are questioning faith, thus the other thread and the idea of using it as educational material. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I saw that! :laugh: Well, I do hate to disappoint. ^_^ I just gave your thread 5 stars because I hate the downrating thing. Hopefully someone just bumped the rating button by accident while they were posting on their phone. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 My prediction is that this is written with the doubting Christian in mind. One who is beginning to think critically of their religion's claims, and is afraid to lose their faith (that's a whole 'nuther kettle o' fish), and look for reasons to believe. I'm also guessing it might be popular with parents of children who are questioning faith, thus the other thread and the idea of using it as educational material. It very well may be. But as such you don't have to worry about it. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunflowerlady Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 My prediction is that this is written with the doubting Christian in mind. One who is beginning to think critically of their religion's claims, and is afraid to lose their faith (that's a whole 'nuther kettle o' fish), and look for reasons to believe. I'm also guessing it might be popular with parents of children who are questioning faith, thus the other thread and the idea of using it as educational material. Well, maybe I should request it from the library after all and see if it answers all my questions and settles all my issues. Goodness knows I have plenty of them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I'm interested in the topic but not interested in reading the book. I won't spend money on it, and I don't want it on my checkout history at the library (if my library even has it - I haven't looked). I'm jumping in here though because several of you have mentioned Amazon reviews. I find goodreads usually has better reviews on most any book. Apparently there's the book and there's the curriculum. Goodreads reviews of the book Those who are interested in this discussion might want to take a look at the reviews there. While a number of people have rated the curriculum, there's only one review so far. Albeto., I'm guessing you're talking about a group read of the book though, and not the curriculum. If anything comes of this I might lurk. I'll try not to say much though because it bugs me when people say how good or bad a book is if they haven't read it. I'll try not to be one of them. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I sincerely doubt it is designed for Christians to take the book and buttonhole the nearest atheist. Some Christians do take their own beliefs and scrutinize them in light of other beliefs - it's part of trying to think critically rather than blindly accepting a creed. If it is used with atheists I think it would be in the context of someone who has come into the church who is searching for answers. It may or may not accurately reflect atheistic views (since again, I haven't read it!) but I think the intent is to take major atheistic arguments against Christianity and to form a logical argument against them in light of what the Bible says. I believe that is just what the book is about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slache Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I've only seen it marketed as a book on apologetics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Albeto., I'm guessing you're talking about a group read of the book though, and not the curriculum. Yes. I just found the book itself. I didn't look for any workbook or anything supplemental. I figure I'll find a few points for discussion rather than go through the book methodically. If someone would rather do that and has the time and inclination, I'd be thrilled, but I don't expect that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 5-starred just because I hate back-stabbing star ratings. Or accidental mobile down-rating. Either way. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Nope. I wouldn't be interested at all. It sounds like it will turn out just like any other thread on here about "religion." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 I just gave your thread 5 stars because I hate the downrating thing. Hopefully someone just bumped the rating button by accident while they were posting on their phone. No worries. I look at it as interesting data. It suggests to me people equate this with critically analyzing God, and that can feel personal, and offensive, and a one-star rating is a logical response. We can't really discuss it this way, but it's still interesting data. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Agreed. Books like this are explicitly anti-atheist. I find it ironic that religious people desire us to respect them and their faith, but are quite happy to disrespect us and our lack of faith. I also would not line my cat's litter box with it. Sorry albeto. It sounds like a big waste of time - setting up a strawman order to knock it down seems to describe it sufficiently for me. Hopefully when Jean reads it, she can have a good conversation about it with you. I'm not impressed. I don't give my kids books to read that set up Christians in order to knock them down. If they want to read about atheism or humanism or communism or feminism - I give them books about that topic, not books about how deluded Christians or neolibs or capitalists or meninists are... I can't get through the first chapter, it's so painful. :( It's like watching Ray Comfort do his shtick. I'll have to wait for someone to share a point they find particularly reasonable, then I can go and read, but until then, I just can't. Oh, I'm sorry. I never should have started this thread. :blush: 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6packofun Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 It's on my to-read list but I have never liked the title at all. Christian apologists get uptight about people using the term "faith" to mean only blind belief or trust without any reasoning. I get that. But it seems like the point of the book title is to USE the term faith in that sort of derogatory way towards atheists--meaning, that there are some presuppositions or ideas that they accept blindly as well--and I don't appreciate that. I also tend to not like books from someone in one camp telling me what they know people in another camp believe. lol Again, I don't know what the premise of the book is so this may not apply. (As an example, I would prefer to read a book by a Muslim or even a Muslim who became a Christian--see Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus--to find out about Islam and how I, as a Christian, can respond to their beliefs, etc.) That said, I do appreciate some of what I've read from Geisler, but mostly in articles and shorter pieces. I'm sorry I don't have more info to share...I've read several other books on apologetics. :) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slache Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I can't get through the first chapter, it's so painful. :( It's like watching Ray Comfort do his shtick. I'll have to wait for someone to share a point they find particularly reasonable, then I can go and read, but until then, I just can't. Oh, I'm sorry. I never should have started this thread. :blush: You have a week(?) to return it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I'm not impressed. I don't give my kids books to read that set up Christians in order to knock them down. If they want to read about atheism or humanism or communism or feminism - I give them books about that topic, not books about how deluded Christians or neolibs or capitalists or meninists are... :hurray: :hurray: :hurray: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 As far as the down-ratings go, i don't care if it's logical, it's rude and it's petty and doesn't reflect at all well on those who do it. Though I have fundamental disagreements with many here, I can wholeheartedly agree with this. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reflections Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I don't know anything about it myself, but this thread raised the topic and while I am desperately curious, I'm afraid to talk on that thread any more! I'll check to see it is at my library.... That thread, 10 posts in, made my head hurt. I may not have the stamina for a long discussion if this thread deteriorates that rabidly. I'm good with circular thinking but not when it's not in fun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanne in ABQ Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I haven't read the book, but I have heard that expression used in Christian circles. Generally it is used in the context of pondering how all the complexity of the universe could just happen, accidentally, and keep on reorganizing itself into more and more complexity, against entropy and other laws of nature, to become what it is, without divine intervention. To these people, it is easier to believe that it was created by God than to believe that it all "just happened". These aren't necessarily "new earth" Christians, who believe in a literal interpretation of the Biblical creation story. Many Christians have no problem with a very old universe, have no problems with natural selection and other scientific interpretations. They just believe that it was set in motion by a supreme being, God, perhaps at the Big Bang. . . 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reflections Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Urg, my library has it. But there was little summary that read: Geisler and Turek argue that Christianity requires the least faith of all worldviews because it is the most reasonable. A valuable aid to those interested in examining the reasonableness of the Christian faith. Based on that, I'm going to go ahead and tap out now. Sorry, Albeto. :closedeyes: 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturemom Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I always thought having faith was looked upon as a good thing by Christians. Not at my library. Sorry. But I would be interested in your review. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I haven't read the book, but I have heard that expression used in Christian circles. Generally it is used in the context of pondering how all the complexity of the universe could just happen, accidentally, and keep on reorganizing itself into more and more complexity, against entropy and other laws of nature, to become what it is, without divine intervention. To these people, it is easier to believe that it was created by God than to believe that it all "just happened". These aren't necessarily "new earth" Christians, who believe in a literal interpretation of the Biblical creation story. Many Christians have no problem with a very old universe, have no problems with natural selection and other scientific interpretations. They just believe that it was set in motion by a supreme being, God, perhaps at the Big Bang. . . I was reading about the Big Bang, etc. to my 9 year old the other day. He asked what happened before the Big Bang. That's an impossible question to answer at this point, and I do get wondering about that. I wonder about that too. I just have no reason to believe it was set in motion by a supreme being. It's an idea to entertain, but there is no evidence whatsoever of that. So it's as good an explanation as any at this point. I guess I see religious belief as so much more than that though. Is religion about answering what can't be answered? It just seems like it would be deeper than that. I can't fathom an entire belief system hinging on the fact I can't explain what happened before the big bang. It's hard to put into words what I'm thinking about this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 A google search for the title shows more than one video about this. I cannot watch it on my phone but I plan to when I get home. I am posting here without links in case someone is familiar with the videos 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I always thought having faith was looked upon as a good thing by Christians. What do you mean by this? (I'm asking genuinely and not making a joke or being sarcastic. It's hard to show tone on a message board so I feel the need to explain.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 I agree with Suzanne. I have heard this phrasing before. It is meant to say it would take faith to believe things just came about. Certain facts are used to support this view, i.e., if the sun was one mile farther away, we would all freeze, or one mile closer, we would burn up. (That's not it exactly, but that is the gist of the evidence for Design.) I think from an apologetics POV, it is meant to demonstrate that even a non-believer "believes" in something that cannot be proven. I have never seen nor read the book, so I don't know what the author's goals might be, but I would expect it is meant to bring children up with a foundation of believing the faith is logical and reasonable. Lots of very erudite people do believe that it is. Sometimes I envy such people. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naturemom Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 What do you mean by this? (I'm asking genuinely and not making a joke or being sarcastic. It's hard to show tone on a message board so I feel the need to explain.) Having strong faith in Christ seems to be foundational to Christianity, so therefore faith must be good to Christians. The title of this book is saying that an atheist needs more faith than a Christian making it sound that having a lot of faith is bad. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 My teens were part of a group study at church in which the leader chose this book. They (my teens) thought it was cheesy and not respectful (condescending) as did some other teens in the study. They didn't end up using the book more than a time or two because of this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Having strong faith in Christ seems to be foundational to Christianity, so therefore faith must be good to Christians. The title of this book is saying that an atheist needs more faith than a Christian making it sound that having a lot of faith is bad. Although they must mean blind faith. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanne in ABQ Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 I was reading about the Big Bang, etc. to my 9 year old the other day. He asked what happened before the Big Bang. That's an impossible question to answer at this point, and I do get wondering about that. I wonder about that too. I just have no reason to believe it was set in motion by a supreme being. It's an idea to entertain, but there is no evidence whatsoever of that. So it's as good an explanation as any at this point. I guess I see religious belief as so much more than that though. Is religion about answering what can't be answered? It just seems like it would be deeper than that. I can't fathom an entire belief system hinging on the fact I can't explain what happened before the big bang. It's hard to put into words what I'm thinking about this. Re: the bolded: In my understanding, religious faith isn't so much about knowing the answers; it's more about having faith that someone knows the answer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Re: the bolded: In my understanding, religious faith isn't so much about knowing the answers; it's more about having faith that someone knows the answer. Hm. Well I have "faith" that someday someone will know the answers to a lot of stuff we don't yet know or understand. I don't know what this has to do with religious faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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