Is anyone watching the news in OK about AP classes?

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Evidently, APUSH is in the process of being banned and other AP classes are in the lineup.

 

Here's a link.

 

 

Here's a link to the proposed bill.

 

If this has already been discussed, I apologize for bringing it up again.  I haven't been following too many threads and probably missed it.

 

 

ETA: link

[Scarlett]

I am in OK....haven't heard of this.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Unfortunately instead of being turned into a discussion of what is quality education it is being turned into a political debate.  It is fast headed towards being fodder for folks to sling insulting verbiage at each other on Facebook based on political and philosophical leanings.  Just a few minutes ago I read a comment that declared that this issue was proof that the party proposing these changes in OK is in fact the US equivalent of a well know terrorist group. (Sigh.)

 

If only we could skip the politics and mudslinging and go back to a discussion what it takes to provide kids with a great education.

[chiguirre]

I imagine this will die in committee as many stupid ideas do. If not, I feel bad for OK students who will have a harder time proving they took rigorous courses and earning college credit in high school.

[swimmermom3]

I imagine this will die in committee as many stupid ideas do. If not, I feel bad for OK students who will have a harder time proving they took rigorous courses and earning college credit in high school.

 

I am not so sure that it will. I think this has been brewing for a while and I have seen many of the same objections here on the board that most US history textbooks are put out by liberals who don't preach American exceptionalism. I am not sure what exactly that is.

 

I do know that I feel like dumping our AP test prep books by Larry Krieger in the garbage.

 

If they had targeted all AP classes, I would have a better time seeing what they were getting at. Starting with APUSH is political posturing.

[swimmermom3]

I am going to look for a more mainstream source, but this article mentioned some of the pushes for change in other states for more "patriotic content" and to "effectively ban any material that could lead to dissent."

 

 

[chiguirre]

I am going to look for a more mainstream source, but this article mentioned some of the pushes for change in other states for more "patriotic content" and to "effectively ban any material that could lead to dissent."

Well, that's disturbing. So now we'll have some states than ban the APs in order to keep their kids from hearing about all the mistakes their forebears have made, oh, and evolution. The gap between states with good public schools and states (like my own) with poor public schools will just get wider and wider. I suppose if this really takes off, there will be a mass exodus of children of educated parents from the public schools. That might be what these legislators are aiming for. The less their future constituents know about our history, the easier they are to manipulate with overheated sound bites. They may even manage to get their way and SECEDE (yes, this is really still a thing in Texas and there are bumper stickers to prove it).

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I am not so sure that it will. I think this has been brewing for a while and I have seen many of the same objections here on the board that most US history textbooks are put out by liberals who don't preach American exceptionalism. I am not sure what exactly that is.

 

I do know that I feel like dumping our AP test prep books by Larry Krieger in the garbage.

 

If they had targeted all AP classes, I would have a better time seeing what they were getting at. Starting with APUSH is political posturing.

 

There is certainly some posturing.

 

On the other hand, the revisions in APUSH were also a real muddle.  I was part of the AP teacher community for US History over the summer.  There were a lot of teachers, both new to AP and veteran, who did not know what direction the course was taking or what the exam would be like.  The guidelines need to have a lot of examples behind them so that teachers understand the depth and breadth that a particular guideline implies.  

CB released a full sample exam to all teachers who were registered as prepping a syllabus (in other words, well before a course audit was done).  Even so, there were essay questions that had long time teachers debating the intent of the question and what would need to be written in order to meet the scoring guidelines.  

 

I hung in there for about half the summer, then bailed and decided to do European History instead.  I doubt that we will attempt APUSH.  Which is a shame, because we love history at our house.  But it feels like such a muddle.

 

 

I have a degree in English and have a similar reaction when I look at the guidelines for the English Language course.  I have trouble deciphering what some of the guidelines are even asking for.  (Which I think is pretty ironic for a course about language and communication.)

[3in9th]

I suppose if this really takes off, there will be a mass exodus of children of educated parents from the public schools.

 

This is why my husband and I homeschool. The PS education in our area is worse than the PS educations my husband and I got growing up and believe you me, our states were routinely at the bottom as far as education.

 

[Luckymama]

:eek:

 

:rolleyes:

 

I miss multi quote :(

[G5052]

Wow.  Nothing in my state, and I live in a non-Common Core state.

 

Hopefully this will die and not spread!

 

[8filltheheart]

Seems rather bizarre to jump to anti-AP rhetoric decades later. BUT if they want to work with their stat universities to develop another college credit worthy designed exam system, hey, I am all for removing the monopoly away from CB. The amt of power and influence over the entire country's educational system that resides in that single body really bothers me. I am not sure there is a realistic solution, but I am definitely anti-sending so much of our money to a monolith that I disagree with. Unfortunately, at this point no one has much option. I am not sure their decision has anything to do with that, however.

[kiana]

Seems rather bizarre to jump to anti-AP rhetoric decades later. BUT if they want to work with their stat universities to develop another college credit worthy designed exam system, hey, I am all for removing the monopoly away from CB. The amt of power and influence over the entire country's educational system that resides in that single body really bothers me. I am not sure there is a realistic solution, but I am definitely anti-sending so much of our money to a monolith that I disagree with. Unfortunately, at this point no one has much option. I am not sure their decision has anything to do with that, however.

 

Yeah, unfortunately, when one of their stated issues is that there isn't enough Christianity in the curriculum it's difficult to picture most secular colleges going for it.

 

I'd be all over more CBE that wasn't college board.

[chiguirre]

If this really takes off, I suppose CLEP, SAT 2s and, possibly, DANTES tests will become more important. I think it is important to give kids a chance to show what they know on a standardized subject test. It's important to allow students to test out of basic classes they're well prepared in. If we change that basic feature of American colleges, we'll end up with the all-required course programs that many other countries have and lose one of the unique strengths of our system of higher education.

 

It would be great if IB tests were open to non-IB students or some other non-CB mechanism geared to high school students was developed. There wasn't a peep about that in the articles linked though. It was just about OK public schools doing away with AP courses (would they be allowed to give the tests????) and, basically, telling their strong students "Tough Luck!" It's just another way to put kids from some states at a tremendous disadvantage compared to others.

 

ETA: The thing that kills me about this story is that OK is undermining its own kids. For the sake of poking the CB in the eye over the content of the APUSH exam, it will take away an avenue of advancement for hard-working high school students. So instead of harming the CB, they're harming the kids they're responsible for helping get a leg up.

[swimmermom3]

There is certainly some posturing.

 

On the other hand, the revisions in APUSH were also a real muddle.  I was part of the AP teacher community for US History over the summer.  There were a lot of teachers, both new to AP and veteran, who did not know what direction the course was taking or what the exam would be like.  The guidelines need to have a lot of examples behind them so that teachers understand the depth and breadth that a particular guideline implies.  

CB released a full sample exam to all teachers who were registered as prepping a syllabus (in other words, well before a course audit was done).  Even so, there were essay questions that had long time teachers debating the intent of the question and what would need to be written in order to meet the scoring guidelines.  

 

I hung in there for about half the summer, then bailed and decided to do European History instead.  I doubt that we will attempt APUSH.  Which is a shame, because we love history at our house.  But it feels like such a muddle.

 

 

I have a degree in English and have a similar reaction when I look at the guidelines for the English Language course.  I have trouble deciphering what some of the guidelines are even asking for.  (Which I think is pretty ironic for a course about language and communication.)

 

I am in the same teacher community and if Larry Krieger had said that there were objections to the APUSH test based on what you have written above, I'd be cheering him on. But that is not what is happening.

 

Last night I went in search of academic articles that discussed "American exceptionalism" and it was an interesting read, but the main article I read looks nothing like what is being proposed.

 

I can say my kids are the smartest, most attractive, most capable kids in the world. My saying it doesn't make it so, especially if there are stats like test scores to prove otherwise. If I as their teacher operate on that premise, then there is nothing I can teach them because they are already the smartest. So there is no opportunity for growth and there is no self-reflection. Of course, I have to silence everyone with a fly swatter who disagrees with me. Who wins in this situation?

 

If the test is written poorly, fix it. If there isn't enough Christianity in the texts, certain states were never the hot bed of Civil Rights unrest or lynchings, and the US has never used "enhanced interrogation techniques," then the problem isn't the test and it's all political posturing.

 

 

[swimmermom3]

Seems rather bizarre to jump to anti-AP rhetoric decades later. BUT if they want to work with their stat universities to develop another college credit worthy designed exam system, hey, I am all for removing the monopoly away from CB. The amt of power and influence over the entire country's educational system that resides in that single body really bothers me. I am not sure there is a realistic solution, but I am definitely anti-sending so much of our money to a monolith that I disagree with. Unfortunately, at this point no one has much option. I am not sure their decision has anything to do with that, however.

 

 

A resounding "Yes!" to the part in bold.  We play the game because I haven't figured out how to make other options work, but that doesn't mean I like it.

 

I don't think it's healthy for American education to be dictated by a private testing company that's involved with text book "production," testing, and Common Core, but then I also don't think it's good for American education to have Bill Gates have his fingers in it everywhere or for North Carolina to adopt a high school social studies program they paid the Koch brothers to design.

[maize]

Could we import British A-levels as a testing option? I'd like to see an alternative to AP as well!

Could we import British A-levels as a testing option? I'd like to see an alternative to AP as well!

 

I guarantee you that they don't teach American exceptionalism...

 

And the worst part of the article is they claim that perhaps their previously passed anti-common core legislation bans all "national curricula", whatever that means.  So, not just APUSH, but all APs, all SAT IIs, all IB, etc. etc.

[kiana]

Could we import British A-levels as a testing option? I'd like to see an alternative to AP as well!

 

There are actually a few schools that have done it -- AICE -- but I'd love to see it more widely available. 

 

Personally I'd like to see more options in high school -- a narrower focus but more depth in subjects such as the A levels, or a broader focus such as we have now, or a vocational focus.

[swimmermom3]

If this really takes off, I suppose CLEP, SAT 2s and, possibly, DANTES tests will become more important. I think it is important to give kids a chance to show what they know on a standardized subject test. It's important to allow students to test out of basic classes they're well prepared in. If we change that basic feature of American colleges, we'll end up with the all-required course programs that many other countries have and lose one of the unique strengths of our system of higher education.

 

It would be great if IB tests were open to non-IB students or some other non-CB mechanism geared to high school students was developed. There wasn't a peep about that in the articles linked though. It was just about OK public schools doing away with AP courses (would they be allowed to give the tests????) and, basically, telling their strong students "Tough Luck!" It's just another way to put kids from some states at a tremendous disadvantage compared to others.

 

ETA: The thing that kills me about this story is that OK is undermining its own kids. For the sake of poking the CB in the eye over the content of the APUSH exam, it will take away an avenue of advancement for hard-working high school students. So instead of harming the CB, they're harming the kids they're responsible for helping get a leg up.

 

I am not sure Oklahoma cares and that is reflected in the fact they are ranked 48th in the nation for education. I read one young man's comments on wondering why this was a priority when there wasn't enough paper for tests, enough desks for students, or money for textbooks.

 

Says the woman whose state has something like a 60% high school graduation rate.

 

 

 

 

[maize]

I guarantee you that they don't teach American exceptionalism...

 

And the worst part of the article is they claim that perhaps their previously passed anti-common core legislation bans all "national curricula", whatever that means. So, not just APUSH, but all APs, all SAT IIs, all IB, etc. etc.

LOL, true that...

 

I wasn't really responding to the original post but to those posters who suggested that some alternatives to the College Board test monopoly would be good.

[lanabug]

Ugh, I hate to say that the representative who authored the bill is my representative.  I like his beliefs in most other regards, but he has really missed the mark on this one.  I highly doubt the bill will make it out of committee, based on the HUGE outcry I have seen in my area.  I haven't seen anyone speaking up in favor of this bill.

 

Lana 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I am in the same teacher community and if Larry Krieger had said that there were objections to the APUSH test based on what you have written above, I'd be cheering him on. But that is not what is happening.

 

Last night I went in search of academic articles that discussed "American exceptionalism" and it was an interesting read, but the main article I read looks nothing like what is being proposed.

 

I can say my kids are the smartest, most attractive, most capable kids in the world. My saying it doesn't make it so, especially if there are stats like test scores to prove otherwise. If I as their teacher operate on that premise, then there is nothing I can teach them because they are already the smartest. So there is no opportunity for growth and there is no self-reflection. Of course, I have to silence everyone with a fly swatter who disagrees with me. Who wins in this situation?

 

If the test is written poorly, fix it. If there isn't enough Christianity in the texts, certain states were never the hot bed of Civil Rights unrest or lynchings, and the US has never used "enhanced interrogation techniques," then the problem isn't the test and it's all political posturing.

 

 

Not trying to defend Krieger. Most of the articles I've seen him quoted in leave me scratching my head. But with respect to APUSH I don't think it's a choice between revised APUSH being horrid and needing to be abandoned and it being an exemplar of the best history possible.

 

There was an article I read a few weeks back that pointed out that so many people validate AP US and so few colleges offer a straight US History survey course that it is common for high school US history teachers to be teaching a class they didn't take.

 

We spent 18 months to cover Civil War to Cold War. It was one of the best history years we've had. Primary documents, field trips, secondary histories, and contemporary literature. But of course it doesn't have the AP label.

 

 

Oh and if you think the fight over history is fun, wait until the revisions for government come out.

[3in9th]

There are actually a few schools that have done it -- AICE -- but I'd love to see it more widely available. 

 

Personally I'd like to see more options in high school -- a narrower focus but more depth in subjects such as the A levels, or a broader focus such as we have now, or a vocational focus.

 

There is a waiting list in my area for the Vo-Tech school. They turn kids away. It seems silly to send so many unqualified and unmotivated kids to college, but deny them the sort of work training they want.

[kiana]

There is a waiting list in my area for the Vo-Tech school. They turn kids away. It seems silly to send so many unqualified and unmotivated kids to college, but deny them the sort of work training they want.

 

This annoys me so much.

 

Someone who wants to and puts in the effort should be able to graduate from high school with a cosmetology license, or a welding certificate, or a CDL, or CNA (possibly even LPN for accelerated students), or some other associate's degree, or at least coursework towards it. Some of these are impractical to offer at the high school but it would be totally possible to schedule them in at the CC if they are not trying to meet 4-year college-prep requirements at the SAME TIME. 

[swimmermom3]

Not trying to defend Krieger. Most of the articles I've seen him quoted in leave me scratching my head. But with respect to APUSH I don't think it's a choice between revised APUSH being horrid and needing to be abandoned and it being an exemplar of the best history possible.

 

There was an article I read a few weeks back that pointed out that so many people validate AP US and so few colleges offer a straight US History survey course that it is common for high school US history teachers to be teaching a class they didn't take.

 

We spent 18 months to cover Civil War to Cold War. It was one of the best history years we've had. Primary documents, field trips, secondary histories, and contemporary literature. But of course it doesn't have the AP label.

 

 

Oh and if you think the fight over history is fun, wait until the revisions for government come out.

 

We've talked a fair amount about AP history over the past couple of years and you know I have a lot of questions.

 

From the AP courses I've seen so far (across disciplines), the content is richer than a standard class with the students held to a higher level of critical thinking. I suspect that not just "advanced" students, but many students would benefit from the course content. Because everything rides on a one day test, for me, the delivery of the content is problematic as is the rate.

 

As to the part in bold, we've experienced several teachers at the ps who have had little to no college exposure to the subject they teach and I can see where there could be a problem with teachers struggling with the content of the new test. I am also speculating that the College Board is in such a rush to get new tests out, that the tests may not be as well thought out or researched as they need to be.

 

Your US history courses always sound rewarding and that's why I was hoping you were doing something this year and would be willing to share. :D

 

To my way of thinking, some of the backlash to AP has to do not with teachers, but with the education or lack thereof with some parts of the general population and some members of our Congress.

 

I don't want "American exceptionalism" to mean something along the lines of "All first world countries teach x, y, z scientific concepts except the Americans."  I don't want to be known as the only country in the world where you can't get pregnant if you jump up and down after s@x and because your congressmen say so.

 

If this push were to result in greater access to more challenging content for more students without the stranglehold the CB maintains, then I would be on board in a heartbeat. But this push isn't about AP testing and sadly, it isn't about education.

 

For clarification, if anyone thinks I want my US history textbooks to be written only by people with my political leanings, you are dead wrong. I want them written by academic professionals with a lifetime of research and study behind them and I want them written in conjunction with educators who understand how to really teach and I want them to represent both sides of the political spectrum. I want them to reflect the actual American experience, not the ideal.  Then I want our kids to debate the heck out out of the ideas presented (civilly of course) and proceed to bring imagination, effectiveness, and dignity to the task of governing this country.

 

At this point in my rant, I should also acknowledge that I had a hard time telling my kids that there was never such a thing as dragons. Yeah, I believe in fairy tales.

 

ETA: They are revamping the government class? <<<double shudder>>>>

[chiguirre]

Ugh, I hate to say that the representative who authored the bill is my representative.  I like his beliefs in most other regards, but he has really missed the mark on this one.  I highly doubt the bill will make it out of committee, based on the HUGE outcry I have seen in my area.  I haven't seen anyone speaking up in favor of this bill.

 

Lana 

It was passed by the committee. That's what's so scary. Any rep can propose his own nutty pet project but to make it out of committee you need to get people on board. This bill has passed that hurdle and may well succeed in becoming law if voters don't raise a huge ruckus. It looks like you've got a new project on your plate for the next few weeks. You have my sympathy.

[AFwife Claire]

I just read a thoughtful take on the new APUSH exam by a Texas teacher.  I thought she had some good suggestions and well-thought-out critiques.

 

Confessions of an AP Teacher

[swimmermom3]

I just read a thoughtful take on the new APUSH exam by a Texas teacher.  I thought she had some good suggestions and well-thought-out critiques.

 

Confessions of an AP Teacher

 

Claire, thanks so much for finding this.

 

This is what the discussion should look like.

 

It also helps me better see where Sebastian was coming from in her post.

 

ETA: If anyone has links for similar articles, they would be appreciated.

 

[3in9th]

Started a thread to discuss the US PS system in more depth- http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/542724-changing-the-american-public-school-system-a-wish-list/

 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

This is why my husband and I homeschool. The PS education in our area is worse than the PS educations my husband and I got growing up and believe you me, our states were routinely at the bottom as far as education.

 

 

I was thinking about homeschoolers in OK when I read the article.  If the state bans APUSH, and other AP courses, without having an alternative in place, where will homeschoolers who wish to take the AP tests go?  Will they have to cross state lines?  Find alternative test sites?  I think this law will make homeschooling high school a tad more difficult.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

If this really takes off, I suppose CLEP, SAT 2s and, possibly, DANTES tests will become more important. I think it is important to give kids a chance to show what they know on a standardized subject test. It's important to allow students to test out of basic classes they're well prepared in. If we change that basic feature of American colleges, we'll end up with the all-required course programs that many other countries have and lose one of the unique strengths of our system of higher education.

 

 

This might be the answer to my concerns, more CLEP and SAT 2s.

 

[swimmermom3]

This might be the answer to my concerns, more CLEP and SAT 2s.

 

 

Would they become more important or would they also be done away with? If Common Core and AP content are "bad," wouldn't it follow that SAT 2s would be problematic as well.

 

We aren't just talking about APUSH, but AP Biology being evolution-centered. Wouldn't the SAT 2 Biology test be problematic?

 

It's one thing if we are eliminating AP because we have a plan to strengthen public education in this country to the point that most classes offer solid foundations with additional challenge for students who need it, as well as access to affordable colleges; it's another thing if we are eliminating AP because it doesn't meet the adults' checklist for religious and political content, while offering the kids whose education it is, nothing in its place.

 

[justasque]

Here's a link to the actual bill.  

 

From the bill:

 

The following foundational and historical documents shall form the base level of academic content for all United States History courses offered in schools in the state, including Honors and Advanced Placement courses, and all United States History courses shall include appropriate grade-level study of the documents.

The course content proposed in the bill reads to me more like a course titled "Key Documents and Speeches in American History", rather than the typical US History course that is more of an overview of events (with, of course, some relevant documents and speeches included).  With the number of items listed in the bill as required, including 51 specific items ("the Bill of Rights"), and several broader categories ("United States Supreme Court decisions", "United States treaties", "Acts of the United States Congress"), there will be no time for discussions of immigration, expansion, technology, trade, wars, economics, migration, social changes, except perhaps as they relate to the specific documents.  (And even then, there are so many required documents that very little time could be spent on the historical context for each of them.)  This, to me, sounds like the description of a course that should be taken after the student has done a basic "US History" class,, or perhaps even a second-year college class for history majors or pre-law students.

From the bill again:

 

The foundational and historical documents are:

1. The actual content of the organic documents from the preColonial, Colonial, Revolutionary, Federalist and post-Federalist eras of the United States;

2. The major principles in the Federalist Papers;

3. The writings, speeches, documents and proclamations of the Founders and Presidents of the United States;  

4. Founding documents of the United States that contributed to the foundation or maintenance of the representative form of limited government, the free-market economic system and American exceptionalism;

5. Objects of historical significance that have formed and influenced the United States legal or governmental system and that exemplify the development of the rule of law including, but not limited to, the Magna Carta, a complete overview of the "Two Treatises of Government" written by John Locke, the Ten Commandments and the Justinian Code;

6. United States Supreme Court decisions;

7. Acts of the United States Congress, including the published text of the Congressional Record;

8. United States treaties; and

9. Other documents, writings, speeches, proclamations and recordings related to the history, heritage and foundation of the United States, including:

a. the Declaration of Independence,

b. the United States Constitution and its amendments,

c. the Mayflower Compact,

d. the Bill of Rights,

e. the Articles of Confederation,

f. the Virginia Plan,

g. the Northwest Ordinance,

h. the national motto,

i. the national anthem,

j. the sermon known as "A Model of Christian Charity" by John Winthrop,

k. the sermon known as "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" by Jonathan Edwards,

l. the Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death speech made by Patrick Henry,

m. the letter known as "Remember the Ladies" by Abigail Adams,

n. the writing titled "Common Sense, Section III: Thoughts on the Present State of American Affairs" by Thomas Paine,

o. the essay "Federalist No. 10" by James Madison,

p. the Farewell Address made by George Washington,

q. the Monroe Doctrine statement made by James Monroe,

r. the overview of the book titled "Democracy in America" by Alexis de Tocqueville,

s. the document known as the "Declaration of Sentiments" by Elizabeth Cady Stanton,

t. the Independence Day speech made by Frederick Douglass at Rochester, New York,

u. the House Divided speech made by Abraham Lincoln,

v. the Gettysburg Address made by Abraham Lincoln,

w. the Second Inaugural address made by Abraham Lincoln,

x. the surrender speech made by Chief Joseph,

y. the poem titled "The New Colossus" by Emma Lazarus,

z. the article titled "The Gospel of Wealth" by Andrew Carnegie,

aa. the essay titled "The Significance of the Frontier in American History" by Frederick Jackson Turner,

bb. the Atlanta Compromise speech made by Booker T. Washington,

cc. the Cross of Gold speech made by William Jennings Bryan,

dd. the Roosevelt Corollary made by Theodore Roosevelt,

ee. the New Nationalism speech made by Theodore Roosevelt,

ff. the Peace Without Victory speech made by Woodrow Wilson,

gg. the First Inaugural address made by Franklin D. Roosevelt,

hh. portions of the book titled "The Grapes of Wrath" written by John Steinbeck,

ii. the Four Freedoms speech made by Franklin D. Roosevelt,

jj. the Day of Infamy speech made by Franklin D. Roosevelt,

kk. the article titled "The Sources of Soviet Conduct" by George Kennan,

ll. the address that became known as the Truman Doctrine made by Harry S. Truman,

mm. the Address on Little Rock, Arkansas, made by Dwight Eisenhower,

nn. the Farewell Address made by Dwight Eisenhower,

oo. the Inaugural address made by John F. Kennedy,

pp. the Decision to Go to the Moon speech made by John F. Kennedy,

qq. the letter known as the "Letter from Birmingham Jail" written by Martin Luther King, Jr.,

rr. the I Have a Dream speech made by Martin Luther King, Jr.,

ss. the Ballot or the Bullet speech made by Malcolm X,

tt. the Great Society speech made by Lyndon B. Johnson,

uu. the American Promise speech made by Lyndon B. Johnson,

vv. the First Inaugural address made by Ronald Reagan,

ww. the 40th Anniversary of D-Day speech made by Ronald Reagan,

xx. the Remarks at the Brandenburg Gate speech made by Ronald Reagan, and

yy. the Address to the Nation speech made by George W. Bush on September 11, 2001.

[justasque]

I was thinking about homeschoolers in OK when I read the article.  If the state bans APUSH, and other AP courses, without having an alternative in place, where will homeschoolers who wish to take the AP tests go?  Will they have to cross state lines?  Find alternative test sites?  I think this law will make homeschooling high school a tad more difficult.

 

The proposed bill would replace APUSH (and other US History classes) with a class featuring the content described in the bill.  The state would develop a test in lieu of the APUSH test.  This bill is only about APUSH, not about other AP subjects (Bio, etc.).  And it will cost almost $4 million to do the development.

 

From the bill:

"By the 2015-2016 school year, the State Board of Education shall identify and adopt a United States History program and corresponding test which school districts shall offer in lieu of the Advanced Placement United States History course and test offered by the College Board."

[3in9th]

The proposed bill would replace APUSH (and other US History classes) with a class featuring the content described in the bill.  The state would develop a test in lieu of the APUSH test.  This bill is only about APUSH, not about other AP subjects (Bio, etc.).  And it will cost almost $4 million to do the development.

 

From the bill:

"By the 2015-2016 school year, the State Board of Education shall identify and adopt a United States History program and corresponding test which school districts shall offer in lieu of the Advanced Placement United States History course and test offered by the College Board."

 

Taking bets on how many OK legislators have or will have investments/contributions from companies who will make this curriculum and its test.

[8filltheheart]

I was just coming here to link the bill bc I just read it. I did not read the originally linked articles or the others, but based on the discussion here, in addition to what justasque posted, here are a couple of others that stuck out (bc it seems like the full clause is necessary for context):

 

4. Founding documents of the United States that contributed to

the foundation or maintenance of the representative form of limited

government, the free-market economic system and American

exceptionalism;

5. Objects of historical significance that have formed and

influenced the United States legal or governmental system and that

exemplify the development of the rule of law including, but not

limited to, the Magna Carta, a complete overview of the "Two

Treatises of Government" written by John Locke, the Ten Commandments

and the Justinian Code;

 

Also, the document ends stating that funding will be reinstated if the test reverts back to the course framework and examination that were used prior to the 2014-2015 school year. Sounds like the issue is exactly what Sebastian was stating.

[swimmermom3]

justaque, thank you for posting the list of documents. While you were posting it, I was reading this article:

 

Anti-AP History GOPer Wanted To Teach Widely Disputed Document

 

I was looking for verification for the following quote from the article:

 

"Without the controversial Mecklenburg Declaration, Fisher's bill still includes a long list of documents and speeches students must read.

As CNN noted, the bill requires documents typically taught in American history classes like the Thomas Paine's "Commons Sense" and "The Gettysburg Address."

But the bill also requires students to read the Ten Commandments, three speeches by Ronald Reagan, and one speech by George W. Bush. The bill does not include speeches from any of the last three Democratic presidents— Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, or Jimmy Carter."

 

Thank you for providing it, I think. :tongue_smilie:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

justaque, thank you for posting the list of documents. While you were posting it, I was reading this article:

 

Anti-AP History GOPer Wanted To Teach Widely Disputed Document

 

I was looking for verification for the following quote from the article:

 

"Without the controversial Mecklenburg Declaration, Fisher's bill still includes a long list of documents and speeches students must read.

As CNN noted, the bill requires documents typically taught in American history classes like the Thomas Paine's "Commons Sense" and "The Gettysburg Address."

But the bill also requires students to read the Ten Commandments, three speeches by Ronald Reagan, and one speech by George W. Bush. The bill does not include speeches from any of the last three Democratic presidents— Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, or Jimmy Carter."

 

Thank you for providing it, I think. :tongue_smilie:

 

I'll confess that I'm terribly fond of the Brandenburg Gate speech by Reagan, because I was driving to Berlin on the day he gave it.  My German friends laughed at the speech and informed me that the wall would always, always be there and my president was a fool to think otherwise.  Less than a decade later, I went to Berlin and struggled to show my dh where the wall had been (this was before the markings on the pavement were added so that tourists could find the former path of the wall).  

 

I don't think it is unreasonable to exclude the current president, simply because it is too close for a historical (vice political) analysis.  Plus I think that APUSH content ends in 2001 (I know that is when the Government courses ended).

 

There are a number of speeches from FDR, Truman and Kennedy.  Other than wanting to include Clinton or Carter for balance, what address is missing that should be there for the sake of representing the history of that period?  I can't think of one that carries the historical familiarity of something like Kennedy's "Ich Bin ein Berliner" speech or his speech declaring that we would go to the moon.  There is the Carter Crisis of Confidence speech.  (Not trying to pick a fight, I'm just wondering if there is a major speech that ought have been included from Carter or Clinton.  Maybe one of the side effects of presidents' being out there in the media so much is that there are fewer barnburning speeches.  On the other hand, FDR was doing weekly addresses, so maybe that exposure theory doesn't fly.)   

 

Honestly, when I look at the list of documents, I don't really see anything that I wouldn't expect to see in a sidebar of an AP text like Out of Many or American Pageant.  

 

What I see missing most from the history courses is the sense of joy and discovery that is involved in history.  Take a look at this document for example.  Just a routine evening of drunks and fights until is suddenly wasn't anymore.  Link.  This is the sort of Wow moment that I think is too often missing from the classroom.  But then we are a family that actually reads the historic property survey of military properties in Hawaii to see the background on our housing area.  And we took some real delight in finding a trip report for a President Truman visit to Oahu that mentioned our neighborhood.  So maybe we are a little odd.

[8filltheheart]

Yes, Sebastian, I agree.  And context matters.  The Bush speech is the one given on 9-11.  

[swimmermom3]

I'll confess that I'm terribly fond of the Brandenburg Gate speech by Reagan, because I was driving to Berlin on the day he gave it.  My German friends laughed at the speech and informed me that the wall would always, always be there and my president was a fool to think otherwise.  Less than a decade later, I went to Berlin and struggled to show my dh where the wall had been (this was before the markings on the pavement were added so that tourists could find the former path of the wall).  

 

I don't think it is unreasonable to exclude the current president, simply because it is too close for a historical (vice political) analysis.  Plus I think that APUSH content ends in 2001 (I know that is when the Government courses ended).

 

There are a number of speeches from FDR, Truman and Kennedy.  Other than wanting to include Clinton or Carter for balance, what address is missing that should be there for the sake of representing the history of that period?  I can't think of one that carries the historical familiarity of something like Kennedy's "Ich Bin ein Berliner" speech or his speech declaring that we would go to the moon.  There is the Carter Crisis of Confidence speech.  (Not trying to pick a fight, I'm just wondering if there is a major speech that ought have been included from Carter or Clinton.  Maybe one of the side effects of presidents' being out there in the media so much is that there are fewer barnburning speeches.  On the other hand, FDR was doing weekly addresses, so maybe that exposure theory doesn't fly.)   

 

Honestly, when I look at the list of documents, I don't really see anything that I wouldn't expect to see in a sidebar of an AP text like Out of Many or American Pageant.  

 

What I see missing most from the history courses is the sense of joy and discovery that is involved in history.  Take a look at this document for example.  Just a routine evening of drunks and fights until is suddenly wasn't anymore.  Link.  This is the sort of Wow moment that I think is too often missing from the classroom.  But then we are a family that actually reads the historic property survey of military properties in Hawaii to see the background on our housing area.  And we took some real delight in finding a trip report for a President Truman visit to Oahu that mentioned our neighborhood.  So maybe we are a little odd.

 

I don't think how you do history is odd at all; it's inspiring.

 

In going back and examining the list of documents and thinking about the viability of including the Brandenberg Gate speech for example and not those from more recent Democratic presidents, I understand and and agree with your point.

 

Where I am struggling with this, is making it a partisan talking point. I am not sure that's the term I want, but why not just say the test is flawed and it is flawed on points A-Q and here's why and here's what we can do with it. Keep the religious and political rhetoric out of it as much as possible and don't have it represented by someone with ties to an organization that promotes the marriage of state and Christian church. Make it all about education.

 

I guess I am also struggling with the idea that it won't stop here. Your point about revising the US Government test reminded me of that and again, given the current political climate, ditching the AP Biology test isn't out of the question.

 

 

[swimmermom3]

<snip>

What I see missing most from the history courses is the sense of joy and discovery that is involved in history.  Take a look at this document for example.  Just a routine evening of drunks and fights until is suddenly wasn't anymore.  Link.  This is the sort of Wow moment that I think is too often missing from the classroom.  But then we are a family that actually reads the historic property survey of military properties in Hawaii to see the background on our housing area.  And we took some real delight in finding a trip report for a President Truman visit to Oahu that mentioned our neighborhood.  So maybe we are a little odd.

 

Love the link! Those are the kinds of things that capture our imagination here too. My dh's family goes back to before the Civil War and we have some wonderful copies of personal documents that I would like to include in our studies.

 

I think gifted and/or veteren AP teachers can bring a sense of joy and discovery to the AP classes, but I don't think it's easy and more often, they are hamstrung by the requirements. My older kids' AP Euro teacher was really good, but as a European with a ration card, he brought something different to the table that I could not when I taught it last year. Of course, I can't say that I always taught it with good grace either, because I personally wanted more joy and discovery.

 

AP certainly isn't perfect, but it's something. A couple of weeks ago, a friend of ds's traveled to the beach with us. She is almost frighteningly smart and is taking several AP courses this year. It's the first time I have seen her satisfied academically since she started high school. I can't imagine taking the challenge away from some of our best minds without giving them something even better in its place.

 

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I'm wondering how an OK state test would work for college credit. I'm guessing that there would have to be some conferring of college credit by state colleges. Which raises an interesting anti monopoly idea. What if there were state designed syllabi and exams with credit from the flagship Uni?

 

For example a foundations of American Government course by UVA or an American West course by OK State or a Crossroads of the Pacific course by U Hawaii? Sort of a Thousand Points of Academic Light approach.

 

Break the monopoly. Of course there would be the greatest benefit if a student in HI could take the VA history exam and get credit. Or if a student in Iowa could take the CA physics exam etc.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I may at this point just be avoiding doing my reading in Cicero.

[Luckymama]

I may at this point just be avoiding doing my reading in Cicero.

:lol:

 

I think Lisa's supposed to be working on course descriptions. I have been (successfully) putting off my transcript work by researching biology, history, and English options for next year :D

[swimmermom3]

:lol:

 

I think Lisa's supposed to be working on course descriptions. I have been (successfully) putting off my transcript work by researching biology, history, and English options for next year :D

 

:blushing: There is nothing like Hive accountability.

 

Next year is ds's senior year and I want a challenging and thoughtful US History class along with a government class. I am at a loss at to how to get there without the AP framework.

[Nan in Mass]

Oklahoma 8.6% Native American.  (At least, Wiki says the 2010 census says it is.)  I have trouble believing that "American Exceptionalism" as created by the state of OK is going to include much of the history of the US's dealings with indigenous nations accurately.

 

Nan

[Caroline]

There is a resolution in the Georgia legislature about it, too. 

 

Here is information about it..http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/georgia-resolution-ap-us-history

 

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

:blushing: There is nothing like Hive accountability.

 

Next year is ds's senior year and I want a challenging and thoughtful US History class along with a government class. I am at a loss at to how to get there without the AP framework.

 

Could you use the old APUSH framework?

 

Start with the TC American History series (the one with Patrick Allitt as one of the profs) and add on readings?  Especially if you added in histories of specific events and biographies.

 

Hillsdale Academy has American Studies in their 11th grade.  Their curriculum guide might be a good springboard.

 

http://academy.hillsdale.edu/file/academics/9-12_Guide.pdf

 

You could go with a more basic general survey, supplemented with a couple major essay contests (Ex. The World War II Museum and the Air Force Museum have annual contests, as do organizations like the DAR.) and the History Day Competition for depth.

[swimmermom3]

Could you use the old APUSH framework?

 

Start with the TC American History series (the one with Patrick Allitt as one of the profs) and add on readings?  Especially if you added in histories of specific events and biographies.

 

Hillsdale Academy has American Studies in their 11th grade.  Their curriculum guide might be a good springboard.

 

http://academy.hillsdale.edu/file/academics/9-12_Guide.pdf

 

You could go with a more basic general survey, supplemented with a couple major essay contests (Ex. The World War II Museum and the Air Force Museum have annual contests, as do organizations like the DAR.) and the History Day Competition for depth.

 

I probably could. I have the TC lecture series and I just remembered to look at one of my favorite resources for AP Euro who also taught APUSH. So less focus on a text or none at all? Hmm. I'll take my musings and your suggestions over to the other thread so as not to derail the conversation here.

 

I definitely want to include The Image in our studies. :D