Steam coming out of my ears...

[Muttichen]

I didn't read the original post in time to catch the school's name.  Do people frequently misspell the first name?

 

 

Yes!

 

And good to know your son got in.  That gives me hope for my ds. :)

[MarkT]

You didn't ask me, but I am going to answer anyway.  

I really don't see the academic benefit in diversity.  And, yes, I think it should be race and gender blind.  

I agree on race and gender blindness.  

(Using talent shows for example,  The Voice with blind auditions has better singers then the other shows IMHO.)

 

The only "external" factor that should be allowed in college admissions is family income which does make a large difference in opportunities for the student.

 

Unfortunately - (Diversity == Race and/or Gender) in this country when it should be much broader than that.

[regentrude]

Since then, I don't know a single homeschooler who's been admitted and I know a number of kids who have been very well qualified and have applied.  I'll let you know what happens with my ds!

 

If I figured out the school correctly, I can offer one more data point:

My DD was rejected.

No idea whether it was because of homeschooling or white girl or whatever.

Two other high ranking schools deemed her worthy of admission.

I have given up trying to find out a rhyme or reason in college admissions.

[shawthorne44]

Likely so, Wapiti.  I wonder, though, why LDs even would turn up on an application form.  We did not cite them for mine who went to college. 

 

The article recommended you write something in the "Other" box.  Basic idea is that a LD is a disability, and admitting kids with disabilities make the class more diverse.  It also said mentioning it could offset less than stellar scores.  The kid that was admitted ED sounds like the poster child of that article.  

[Laura Corin]

You didn't ask me, but I am going to answer anyway.  

I really don't see the academic benefit in diversity.  And, yes, I think it should be race and gender blind.  But, I do see an academic benefit in picking the most academic kids for an academic setting.  How many posts have we seen here from parents of kids in highly selective colleges talk about how wonderful it is that their kids have found their academic peers?  

 

 

That's the system that Calvin went through: nothing else mattered apart from academic ability/potential.  There's no 'constructing a class' or choosing for geography or background or extracurriculars.  Academics: that's it.  It makes life very simple: you are chosen because the lecturers believe that you can thrive there; you are not chosen because they don't think you are a good academic fit.

[Orthodox6]

If I figured out the school correctly, I can offer one more data point:

My DD was rejected.

No idea whether it was because of homeschooling or white girl or whatever.

Two other high ranking schools deemed her worthy of admission.

I have given up trying to find out a rhyme or reason in college admissions.

Nor is there rhyme-or-reason in hiring for jobs in some instances. During one job interview, kindly-natured staff secretively told me not to feel offended that my stellar credentials were going to be rejected. A quota system was in place and I was of the wrong gender and of the wrong skin colour.

[Orthodox6]

The whole system is broken, to begin with. In the U.S., at least, for decades we have heard the refrains that a college education is a basic right, that a college education is the ticket to "the good life." As a result of the first claim, there truly is a college for every person, somewhere. We have low-quality institutions available, many of these "for profit" commercial ventures that take practically all applicants, no matter what their preparation and potential, and sell them a certificate or a degree. Never mind that there quite possibly will be no job at the end of the sequence. Despite my "over-educated, academic-oriented" background, I find it heartening to witness the recent backlash against the idolization of college. As for college education being a "right", I am a vulnerable heretic because I reject that point of view.

[creekland]

 Despite my "over-educated, academic-oriented" background, I find it heartening to witness the recent backlash against the idolization of college. 

 

FWIW, I don't regret my college education one bit.  Neither does my hubby.  Neither do my parents.  Since my boys are academically capable, I also don't regret encouraging them to find schools they like and go to them - nor do we regret paying our share toward it.  (Our share is not sticker price nor is anyone building super high loans.)

 

And in the end?  I don't care if they use their actual degrees or just enjoyed learning for the fun of it.  ;)

 

Had they truly not been cut out for college, then we'd have had to change our plans and likely would have.  But that wasn't the case in our family.

 

To each their niche.

[Orthodox6]

Nor do I regret my college degrees. My children have gone to college. I think you may have placed a misconstruction on my words.

[Orthodox6]

(Double post)

[MarkT]

I'm not sure I get your outrage.

 

Overqualified students are rejected by top schools all the time.

 

My white straight A student niece, with perfect SATs, ranked in her sport, tons APs, extracurricular s (I could go on and on) was rejected from Ivy League schools.

 

She didn't claim to be discriminated against because she is white and smart.

but she probably was ...

[kiwik]

We have always had (some changes seem to be in the wind) open admission on a first come first served money on the counter type thing provided you meet the minimum criteria.

 

Admission to the second year for selective or high demand programmes (law, medicine, vet etc) is allocated based on first year marks with the exception of some places reserved for Maori students. This has worked well but some universities are moving to a more interview based system as well for second year and some require an additional English test for some students.

[TravelingChris]

In terms of STEM, if the field is more on the physical sciences or engineering, being a female is probably still an advantage.  

 

My kids had the following results, all white, a male accepted at almost all schools he applied to.  Didn't think there was any discrimination due to anything.  DD1 got rejected by two schools and waitlisted by one but accepted by 8 others-  her problems were not only race and gender but more importantly, where we were living at the time- DC suburbs where she was competing with lots of other highly qualified kids applying to the lots of colleges including the ones she applied to.  DD2 is where we are at now.  She has applied to five and if necessary, will apply to one more.  Now she is still the same race and gender as her sister but instead of being in the majority (gender wise) for her degree, she is in the minority, and at least in one college she has applied to, in a very skewed minority (like 70 -30, or more).    I haven't checked the gender specifications of the other schools with regards to her major but still I doubt that she would be in the majority except in the all female school.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I don't know if DS was discriminated against but he was deferred by his number 1 choice (an Ivy).  My SIL's SIL's nephew (her husband's sister's nephew on her husband's side) was accepted EA.  Both boys are the same age and declared the same intended major.  Differences are: My DS earned test scores 4 points (ACT) and 280 points (SAT) higher than the nephew.  My DS has a higher class ranking, a higher GPA, is a State Scholar and has, what I believe to be, stronger extra curriculars.  Other differences between the two, and the ones that I think were the predominant factors in admission decisions, the nephew identifies as hispanic and comes from a higher socioeconomic class than we do (they will require less financial aid).

 

We are trying to be happy for the other young man but we are somewhat surprised and disappointed.

[Laura Corin]

If you truly want a merit-based system, we would need to switch to a socialist model where the government pays for all students who are expected to pay back into the system after graduation either through explicit tuition repayment or through much higher taxes.

 

Are you really advocating this model?

 

It works fine here.  And I don't think our universities are considered too shabby.

 

ETA: just as a point of information - I believe that most of the universities in the UK are not government-owned - they just take government money and accept partial government regulation.  There are a couple of private universities that do not take government money, but most of their students tend to be from overseas.

 

L

[chiguirre]

It works fine here.  And I don't think our universities are considered too shabby.

 

ETA: just as a point of information - I believe that most of the universities in the UK are not government-owned - they just take government money and accept partial government regulation.  There are a couple of private universities that do not take government money, but most of their students tend to be from overseas.

 

L

No Oxford and Cambridge aren't shabby, but the likelihood of that system being adopted in the US is close to a snow ball's in the proverbial. The pp to whom I was replying has made clear her preference for less government involvement in everything, even though it means our best universities are inaccessible to large chunks of our population.

[Tsuga]

Welp, my answer to this is, I am a minority (mixed, disadvantaged, seriously under-represented in higher ed) and didn't put my race on my applications because I didn't want an advantage or disadvantage, and I recommend others to do the same. My name is a white name. I also did not include any information in my essay that could identify my positively as one race or another. I didn't ever want to think to myself I got in for the color of my skin. I know for a fact that I am not the only one who has done this. I also know African American students who, although they believe that there is institutional racism, felt the same way and personally wouldn't be happy never knowing if they could have gotten in on their own merits. So you never know.

 

For the record I was the ONLY woman in my graduating class with my racial background. Why? A bazillion reasons about society, discrimination, patriarchy, etc. We aren't stupid. Beliefs about what they can achieve. Beliefs about duty to family. All kinds of stuff.

 

I say write a damn good essay about your family and their values and specific, non-label-y things you have achieved (not necessarily overcome--let's be honest, White Kid Viewing Poor Mexicans and Realizing They Have It Good is just not that compelling of a story). I would not point out a learning disability unless it is really key to who you are and who you've become.

 

I think if your student is 14 the best thing they can do is to look at the world and say to themselves, "What can I do to make this or my family's life better? Right here, right now?" And do that. For the college essay.

 

Talk about family. People love family.

 

The ironic thing is that I actually use the race data in my work, but the data we get is so incredibly crappy that we actually have to triangulate with much deeper research. People often don't answer. People sometimes lie. The way the data is processed is incomplete (i.e. if you are more than one they often only count the "first" one, sometimes they just put it all in "mixed" even though sometimes that means "Mixed Hong Kong and Mainland Chinese" and sometimes means "Mixed African-American, Cherokee and Scottish"). Black is not just black, Asian is not just Asian. These are huge categories. Opt out. I would say the same to any person regardless of color. Make them think harder about this.

[Hoggirl]

As far as discrimination goes...I think it's pretty common knowledge that Asians are considered ORMs and have to be *that* much better to get into top schools. As far as URMs having an advantage over those of us in the Wonder Bread category, I'm not sure. What I wish schools would truly seek is diversity among socio-economic classes more than among race. Those two don't always correlate.

 

As far as checking the box or not checking the box goes...and I hope this isn't racist (! is it? I'm just asking the question), but aren't some Asians going to be more readily identifiable as such by their last names? And to some extent, Hispanics as well? I mean, "Smith" or "Jones" isn't identifiable as anything in particular at all.

[chiguirre]

As far as checking the box or not checking the box goes...and I hope this isn't racist (! is it? I'm just asking the question), but aren't some Asians going to be more readily identifiable as such by their last names? And to some extent, Hispanics as well? I mean, "Smith" or "Jones" isn't identifiable as anything in particular at all.

You also have to put your place of birth, so most immigrants are easily tagged. That's unavoidable.

[creekland]

I have no doubt at all that race, gender, and ability to pay affect admissions at the vast majority of colleges.

 

If one doesn't have a hook of some sort and it's a selective school, they had better be extra "special" in some way - or lucky - or both.

 

I fully empathize with those URMs and full pay students who get in as it truly must be difficult with the perceptions out there that they are inferior.  NOT all are, but all are generally assumed to be.

[Tsuga]

As far as discrimination goes...I think it's pretty common knowledge that Asians are considered ORMs and have to be *that* much better to get into top schools. As far as URMs having an advantage over those of us in the Wonder Bread category, I'm not sure. What I wish schools would truly seek is diversity among socio-economic classes more than among race. Those two don't always correlate.

 

As far as checking the box or not checking the box goes...and I hope this isn't racist (! is it? I'm just asking the question), but aren't some Asians going to be more readily identifiable as such by their last names? And to some extent, Hispanics as well? I mean, "Smith" or "Jones" isn't identifiable as anything in particular at all.

While it is possible for a college to do this, I believe it is less likely for a couple reasons:

 

1. Even names like Chen and Yu may belong to non-Asian people. People are also mixed. So doing this risks selecting a person based on false information.

 

2. It would involve a college literally going through an entire eligible group and assigning race to each person. (Like, in their database.) I cannot imagine a public college doing that. It would be a gross violation of students' right to report and of it came to light people would freak the heck out.

 

3. Anyway, when reporting on race for private grants (there are almost no federal grants by race) they have to use student reported data. So it doesn't help their "diversity score" or whatever.

 

4. At least at many colleges, you do not put your name on your essay. If you are afraid that four years of math club and violin at Nationals and tennis state champ will give you away, why not branch out?

 

5. Finally, the first cut is made and then they go for diversity. If there are lower standards for people from some ethnic/race groups, think hard about whether you want your kid at that school. Seriously. It would take a really stong affirmative action policy combined with controversial tactics to eliminate an over-represented group at that point. So I'd say that is not a school you want to go to anyway, and I mean that. Not sour grapes but really--I wouldn't work there or want to attend.

[MBM]

If you are interested in learning more about the admissions process, I'd recommend reading the book The Price of Admission: How America's Ruling Class Buys Its Way into Elite Colleges -- and Who Gets Left Outside the Gates (Amazon link). The author, Daniel Golden, names well-connected, wealthy students who got in to prestigious universities who were not nearly as qualified as others who were poorer and not connected. He also discusses particular universities that admit wealthy students in order to boost the university's endowment and the few universities that don't.

 

Ultimately, a person who can do the work and persevere will do well.

 

[FaithManor]

Thanks for the link! I just ordered it and had it delivered to my kindle. I've a two hour flight into Atlanta, and then seven and half hours into France Thursday/Friday and needed to get some new reading material though I am going to try to sleep some on the flight to Paris.

[MBM]

Thanks for the link! I just ordered it and had it delivered to my kindle. I've a two hour flight into Atlanta, and then seven and half hours into France Thursday/Friday and needed to get some new reading material though I am going to try to sleep some on the flight to Paris.

 

Sounds like fun! You will have to give us an update on your travels, FaithManor. Bon Voyage!