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Steam coming out of my ears...


Catherine
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(I redacted the actual names of places to avoid making this post google-able.  My city is a large urban center in Maryland.  the rest you should be able to figure out on your own.)

 

...on behalf of my son's friend.  A little background.  My middle ds went to school for HS, a public math\science magnet school. He has not been a stellar student but is OK and will be going to college somewhere, and in his opinion and mine, he's gotten an excellent education there.  His school is a shining star in a challenged public school system, where over half the students qualify for school lunch and 98% of them still go to college directly after graduation, and finish at impressively high rates.  So that's the background.

 

Top Flight University offers a tuition-free education for any student from our public school system who gets in on his or her own merits, the My City Scholars program.  It's a really excellent program and huge incentive for the kids in my son's school.  About 10-12 students each year go there for a tuition-free education from an excellent university.  Unfortunately, ds is not in the running for it, but anyway...

 

He told me today that the valedictorian of his class, a girl who is Asian, was not accepted ED to Top Flight University.  Yet the kid next door, who is an OK student but nothing, truly, compared to this girl, did get in!!!  I am really steamed. I can't stop thinking about the injustice to her and I truly hope she gets in regular decision.  Honestly, I think asian kids get a raw deal when it comes to college admissions.  Am I remembering that the statistics bear that out?  Didn't the state of California see a huge increase in the percentage of asians in their state system when they stopped allowing racial\ethnic identity to be a factor in admissions?

 

And before you tell me that neighbor kid must have some hidden factor, I really don't think so.  I know his family fairly well and he's not a terrible student, he's just far more average on paper and in person than she is. 

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As an Asian, I do try to be happy for others but it's hard not to get irritated when I hear of things like this.  A good friend who graduated from an Ivy and is on the Asian alumni board told me the work they are doing to reverse the discriminating "quota" that school uses to limit the number of Asians admitted every year.  Of course, it is not an "official" quota if you ask the school, but since the group is very familiar with the way it works there, they can tell there is a "quota."

 

On the other hand, ds's counselor told us, oftentimes, there just isn't any rhyme or reason anyone outside of the admissions committee can figure out why one gets admitted while another doesn't.  I just feel for those students who worked their butt off and not reach the goal they have been shooting for. 

 

 

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Admissions are really about a lot more than grades and test scores. Colleges talk a lot about building a class. They are looking to balance all kinds of factors. While it may be that the young man who was admitted truly is more average than the young woman who was not (yet) admitted, it is probable that he brought something to the table that she simply did not. 

 

Colleges like to build classes that include a diverse and interesting mix of students. So, it's possible that this year they had a large number of applicants who had portfolios very similar to that of the young woman and fewer like that of the young man. Assuming that both have shown themselves capable of succeeding at the school, in this particular year he may be a more attractive candidate, even though her record may be more impressive in some ways.

 

I know, for example, that my own son benefits from being a male in a major that is predominantly female. I don't want to take anything away from him in terms of recognizing his talent and intelligence and hard work, but the cold, objective fact is that if there are an equal number of spots in a musical theatre program intended for males and females and fewer men than women audition. he simply has better odds of getting into the program. He may even get in when two or three young women who are objectively just as talented and who have better grades, test scores and credentials are rejected. And that can be perceived as unfair. But there aren't a lot of shows written for a cast of a single gender. So, the program -- and the industry at large -- needs to balance gender in a way that makes sense for the whole class, rather than to be "fair" to each individual.

 

 

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I was just reminding my students in one class yesterday of Life's Rule #1:

 

Life isn't fair.  You better get used to it.

 

(Before anyone thinks I wasn't being fair in school, I only mentioned Rule #1 because we were dealing with Rule #2 - It's all about the money - in a math problem I had created to show step graphs.)

 

Last I had read, Asian females had the toughest rates of acceptance into colleges.  It didn't help her that she would have gotten free tuition and brought no geographical diversity to the school.

 

Who can say why the young man was accepted?  You didn't relate his race, but that could have helped.  Otherwise it could be anything - even his name.  (It's been shown that people who share a name (or close) are more prone to liking each other.)  They could have put all the "others" into a pile and pulled one out.  There could be someone who knows someone who put in a good word for him.

 

I hope he does well.  I hope she gets an affordable acceptance elsewhere (or RD acceptance there).

 

It's a good reminder to all that college acceptances in the US - even to top schools - are not solely based upon academic accomplishments, esp to private schools.  There are pros and cons to this, but it can sting.

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While we are throwing around potential reasons for the adcoms' decision.... were they planning to major in the same thing? Perhaps the girl was applying to a very popular major and the boy to something more obscure? There are universities that have differential admissions, depending on the college to which the kid is applying.

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My cousin, typical white girl with impressive extra-curriculars and a grade skipped in elementary, #3 or 4 in her class with many IB classes in one of the best schools in one of the best school systems in Virginia, did not get in to excellent university in her state under early decision several years ago.  She announced she no longer wanted to go there, wouldn't wear her university branded clothes anymore, etc.  She had wanted to go there so badly for many, many years.  Many kids got in ED who had a much easier course load and much lower class ranking.  She was so upset.

 

Turns out their ED criteria is pretty much just based on straight grades and a couple other things.  She was accepted under the regular decision and offered a nice merit scholarship.  She attended the university and graduated with her bachelors 3 1/2 years later (could've been 3 years, but she decided to go ahead and do some "fun" classes which pushed one needed class to the 7th semester).

 

So it might not be that they are just rejecting her in favor of lower performing kids.  It might be their early decision criteria being kind of weird.

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He is white. He has LDs and took a less challenging course load than many of his high-performing peers.  Fewer APs.  He plans a mechanical engineering major.  Hardly out of the ordinary. 

 

I still conclude that her ethnicity and gender hurt her.  I hope that somehow she will get in RD.  Because there is about $160,000 at stake, it really matters.  Not to mention that his parents could afford to pay his way...hers, I don't know. 

 

Yes, life is really not fair.  My sense of injustice really burns for her. 

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He is white. He has LDs and took a less challenging course load than many of his high-performing peers.  Fewer APs.  He plans a mechanical engineering major.  Hardly out of the ordinary. 

 

I still conclude that her ethnicity and gender hurt her.  I hope that somehow she will get in RD.  Because there is about $160,000 at stake, it really matters.  Not to mention that his parents could afford to pay his way...hers, I don't know. 

 

Yes, life is really not fair.  My sense of injustice really burns for her. 

 

Perhaps he discussed his LDs in his essay, how he overcame them, how they actually help him with the engineering stuff, whatever.  

 

Honestly, *that* is something he has that I'm assuming she doesn't and quite possibly something that makes his accomplishments *more* impressive than hers.  

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He is white. He has LDs and took a less challenging course load than many of his high-performing peers.  Fewer APs.  He plans a mechanical engineering major.  Hardly out of the ordinary. 

 

I still conclude that her ethnicity and gender hurt her.  I hope that somehow she will get in RD.  Because there is about $160,000 at stake, it really matters.  Not to mention that his parents could afford to pay his way...hers, I don't know. 

 

Yes, life is really not fair.  My sense of injustice really burns for her.

IMHO, the LDs are the admitted kid's hook. Overcoming them shows he has the work ethic and grit to do well at the university. He might have written an awesome essay and had fabulous recommendations from teachers who knew his struggles.

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IMHO, the LDs are the admitted kid's hook. Overcoming them shows he has the work ethic and grit to do well at the university. We might have written an awesome essay and had fabulous recommendations from teachers who knew his struggles.

YUP I know a young woman who learned to read in 8 th grade. The fact that she was able to complete courses needed to get into 4 year schools before high school graduation is amazing. She got into the school of her choice and has done well.

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Arrgh! Lost my reply while the boards were down. I had written a long reply, full of witty observations, interesting links, and personal anecdotes. :) Oh well ...

 

Bottom line was that I agree with Creekland (life isn't fair), and I wanted to thank Catherine for her indignation. Those of us living this are so used to it, we just cope, and adapt, and have Plan B ... and C ... I took a look at the website for the scholarship you are talking about ... I think it's fantastic to give scholarships to students who may need a little extra help - but my son applied for some scholarships for which, had he taken a look at the previous year's recipients, he would have known he was wasting his time.

 

I'll just put some of the links I had in my eaten reply, in case anyone wants to read more on this subject.

 

** Obviously, in any individual case, who knows? It is pointless to discuss individual admissions decisions. But there is a definite, unspoken pattern. **

 

 

"The Myth of American Meritocracy" (a.k.a. Asians are the new Jews)

 

140-SAT-point handicap; not identifying as Asian on applications, etc.

 

 

Like the Tiger Mom's older daughter, my mixed-race son (as a point of pride) self-identified as Asian and white on his college applications (very old ethnicity data for the UCs), despite Berkeley's well-known "holistic" admissions. He had some disappointments from other selective schools, but (to our surprise) was admitted to Berkeley and LOVES it there. :)

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I'm not sure I get your outrage.

 

Overqualified students are rejected by top schools all the time.

 

My white straight A student niece, with perfect SATs, ranked in her sport, tons APs, extracurricular s (I could go on and on) was rejected from Ivy League schools.

 

She didn't claim to be discriminated against because she is white and smart.

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I'm with Creekland, for an awful lot of schools, it can be kind of Russian roulette out there! Life isn't fair, and it's most certainly not predictable.

 

One thing to remember is that with a record number of students applying to four year institutions, but most schools NOT increasing their freshman class sizes, that means the criteria any college claims to be looking at is not going to be the only thing by any stretch. I would imagine that there are times that some pretty quirky things factor into these decisions. For all I know, my sons' grades or scores, or extra curriculars or essays or whatever are not what got him accepted to the schools he applied to but maybe the fact that he was overcoming a shattered femur and a head injury! Really. I don't know. Probably, I don't want to know either, LOL!

 

What I do know is that there is something out there for every student who is willing to work hard. There are 3026 four degree granting institutions in the US and while some are for profit rum deals, there is a huge, legitimate pool from which to choose. I am sure this young lady will find a good one and likely with merit aid.

 

But, I also understand your frustration. It is really hard to see a qualified kid be rejected.

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I'm not sure I get your outrage.

 

Overqualified students are rejected by top schools all the time.

 

My white straight A student niece, with perfect SATs, ranked in her sport, tons APs, extracurricular s (I could go on and on) was rejected from Ivy League schools.

 

She didn't claim to be discounted against because she is white and smart.

 

I get the outrage.  In Catherine's case she is comparing two students from the same school who had access to the same classes for grades, etc.  The rejected student is the top student in the class AND had the toughest courses.  The accepted student took less challenging classes and didn't get quite the same grades.  It's fully understandable to not see the justice in it - esp when the stakes are super high financially.

 

The lad would have had his LDs going for him - and possibly something else too.  If his folks could afford to pay for it, it's even likelier that there may have been some people who knew someone working in his favor.  It's still just a possible deal - not a definite.  There are many possible other reasons.

 

The young lady has her race and gender working against her (this is not conjecture - just as overcoming LDs being a hook is not).  Is there anything else?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  It happens.  Without knowing either student in question, I have no inside info, but having seen oodles of kids get their acceptances/rejections from various schools I do know there are plenty we understand and some we don't.

 

I still wish both students well.  I suspect the deferred young lady can get good offers at other schools, but will they be free at such a high ranking school?  That's much tougher.

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Well ds told me today that she has a patent pending for something she discovered during her research project. 

 

I hope Top Flight University has the opportunity to look on in envy when she wins the Nobel. 

 

My outrage just comes from feeling like she really got a raw deal because of her ethnicity and gender and since I share her gender particularly, but also because justice matters to me, yes, I get that life's not fair but that doesn't mean I have to like it.  I guess honestly I'm not bought into the whole college admissions game enough to be a true believer. Yes, my kids have to play along if they want to go to college, but it disgusts me a bit. 

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Well ds told me today that she has a patent pending for something she discovered during her research project. 

 

I hope Top Flight University has the opportunity to look on in envy when she wins the Nobel. 

 

My outrage just comes from feeling like she really got a raw deal because of her ethnicity and gender and since I share her gender particularly, but also because justice matters to me, yes, I get that life's not fair but that doesn't mean I have to like it.  I guess honestly I'm not bought into the whole college admissions game enough to be a true believer. Yes, my kids have to play along if they want to go to college, but it disgusts me a bit. 

 

Let me just ask a quick question: What do you think would make college admissions "fair?"

 

Should the students with the highest grades and test scores always get first pick of the most elite schools? Since women tend to get better grades and test scores in some subjects and men in others, should we be okay with the idea of entire departments or colleges filled with a single gender?  Would that result in the best possible education for all students at those colleges and universities? Is the most to be gained really from creating such homogeneous groupings? Since you're acknowledging that certain ethnic, cultural and economic groups tend to excel academically, are we okay with the idea that students who aren't members of those groups just get shut out of admission to elite or selective schools? Is that more "fair?"

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Well ds told me today that she has a patent pending for something she discovered during her research project. 

 

I hope Top Flight University has the opportunity to look on in envy when she wins the Nobel. 

 

My outrage just comes from feeling like she really got a raw deal because of her ethnicity and gender and since I share her gender particularly, but also because justice matters to me, yes, I get that life's not fair but that doesn't mean I have to like it.  I guess honestly I'm not bought into the whole college admissions game enough to be a true believer. Yes, my kids have to play along if they want to go to college, but it disgusts me a bit. 

 

I trust (hope) she has applied elsewhere in time to qualify for their merit aid (full ride) scholarship competitions.  She sounds like she could be a competitor at many top schools that offer these awards.

 

While we don't understand why private schools make all the decisions they do, I can say that students almost always love where they go - even when it isn't their original top choice.  It does sound like it will be Top Flight A's loss, but it could be Top Flight B's win.

 

One other potential snag for her... top kids often know they are top kids and sometimes have an air of smugness about them and what they expect.  This can turn admissions folks off.  I'm not saying this did come across in her essays or interviews - or even that she's "typical" this way, but I know when some of our top students have issues with schools where they should get in, this is often the culprit - coupled with competition.   It doesn't help that I suspect admissions folks are predisposed to looking for it in top contenders.

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Okay, I'm not getting how the LDs are a hook? Do we know specifically that he wrote about overcoming them? They aren't disclosed, right?

 

He might or might not have written about it/them, but it's entirely likely that they would come through in teacher reqs or the guidance letter - esp if folks are impressed with what he's overcome.

 

I'm also still inclined to think he (or his family) might know someone who passed on a good word.  I've seen that happen and a few kids around here have purposely worked at the Country Club to garner some decent connections.  Some folks like their caddies and/or waiters and want to see them get breaks in life, plus they have the connections to do so in various places.  If his family was wealthy, he may not have worked, but he could just be "John's boy who worked hard to do what he's doing and "deserves" a chance."

 

All speculation, of course.  For all we know Top Flight just made a pile of students who they thought passed the entrance bar and picked their winners at random.

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He might or might not have written about it/them, but it's entirely likely that they would come through in teacher reqs or the guidance letter - esp if folks are impressed with what he's overcome.

 

Really? Can these folks also address the issue of accommodations? I realize that one can have LDs but not choose to pursue accommodations, so we don't know if he had the latter or not. Is having accommodations confidential? Maybe that's what I was thinking of. I suppose even if they are, that right would be waived if the student indicated s/he had them. But maybe they aren't confidential at all???

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Let me just ask a quick question: What do you think would make college admissions "fair?"

 

Should the students with the highest grades and test scores always get first pick of the most elite schools? Since women tend to get better grades and test scores in some subjects and men in others, should we be okay with the idea of entire departments or colleges filled with a single gender?  Would that result in the best possible education for all students at those colleges and universities? Is the most to be gained really from creating such homogeneous groupings? Since you're acknowledging that certain ethnic, cultural and economic groups tend to excel academically, are we okay with the idea that students who aren't members of those groups just get shut out of admission to elite or selective schools? Is that more "fair?"

 

 

You didn't ask me, but I am going to answer anyway.  

I really don't see the academic benefit in diversity.  And, yes, I think it should be race and gender blind.  But, I do see an academic benefit in picking the most academic kids for an academic setting.  How many posts have we seen here from parents of kids in highly selective colleges talk about how wonderful it is that their kids have found their academic peers?  

 

And, yes, learning disabilities can definitely be an advantage.  

 

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-solution/2011/06/14/learning-disabilities-can-offer-college-admission-edge

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All speculation, of course.  For all we know Top Flight just made a pile of students who they thought passed the entrance bar and picked their winners at random.

Seriously.  I know what school "Top Flight" is (I read the OP before it was edited).  Dh and I are both alumni and we are in the same state.  Their admissions decisions of late seem absolutely nutty and there is a definite bias against homeschoolers in the last five years or so.  I know a number of very qualified kids who have applied and none have been accepted. One girl got an email from financial aid in late March last year asking for detailed personal info needed on her family.  It looked like they were putting together a package for her.  Then she was rejected.  Not even waitlisted -- outright rejected.  And she was accepted to schools that were much more selective.  My middle dd got into Princeton and was waitlisted at this school. What????? This is my ds18's number two choice, but I told him not to get his hopes up.

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He is white. He has LDs and took a less challenging course load than many of his high-performing peers.  Fewer APs.  He plans a mechanical engineering major.  Hardly out of the ordinary. 

 

I still conclude that her ethnicity and gender hurt her.  I hope that somehow she will get in RD.  Because there is about $160,000 at stake, it really matters.  Not to mention that his parents could afford to pay his way...hers, I don't know. 

 

Yes, life is really not fair.  My sense of injustice really burns for her. 

 

 

Don't underestimate the importance of this. Unless the school does needs-blind admissions, the ability to pay could factor into their decisions.  Broadly speaking, for every academic superstar who will be offered a large tuition discount (merit aid) to encourage them to choose the school (and thus help increase the school's status in various rankings, as well as increasing the average academic ability in classes), the school needs a student who is paying full freight, in order to keep the lights on and the teachers paid.  Obviously, a full-paying academic superstar would be the most desirable, but those kids may be reaching even higher and less likely to attend the school.  Taking on a few kids who are on the lower end of the school's academic range, but whose parents can help keep the school in business, ultimately benefits the school's scholarship students.  Providing a quality education isn't cheap.  The money has to come from somewhere.

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Seriously.  I know what school "Top Flight" is (I read the OP before it was edited).  Dh and I are both alumni and we are in the same state.  Their admissions decisions of late seem absolutely nutty and there is a definite bias against homeschoolers in the last five years or so.  I know a number of very qualified kids who have applied and none have been accepted. One girl got an email from financial aid in late March last year asking for detailed personal info needed on her family.  It looked like they were putting together a package for her.  Then she was rejected.  Not even waitlisted -- outright rejected.  And she was accepted to schools that were much more selective.  My middle dd got into Princeton and was waitlisted at this school. What????? This is my ds18's number two choice, but I told him not to get his hopes up.

 

Oh, I know what school it is too... ;)  There have been a couple of things about this institution (overall - not just undergrad) that have left me scratching my head over the past year+.  Fortunately, those affecting my life appear to be getting resolved.  I can hope issues like this will be as well, but perhaps not in time to assist this young lady unless RD comes through for her.

 

Bias against homeschoolers would be another issue that would rile me - just as Davidson has reportedly said.

 

One has to wonder if these Top Flight places realize what people think about them when stuff that is "obvious" doesn't happen.  Word travels - and not the kind of words one would think they want.

 

I love to give the benefit of doubt, in general, but repeated issues kinda removes doubt.

 

Nonetheless, I'll remain hopeful for the best in whatever outcome happens.  Change can happen when word travels.  I'd tell you to ask me how I know, but I don't care to relay that on a public board - esp when issues aren't "finished" yet.

 

But I have no connections to help in this situation.  I can continue to pass on the info (that word travels bit) and someday it might stop in a place where someone can make a difference for the future.  If not, at least we can all be forewarned and stop looking at Top Flight A as Top anything.

 

Should the young lad have been admitted?  Possibly.  We don't know much about him just from this post.  I'd lean toward yes with my benefit of the doubt nature.  Should the young lady have been deferred (again, based upon this thread)?  HIGHLY doubtful.

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Don't underestimate the importance of this. Unless the school does needs-blind admissions, the ability to pay could factor into their decisions.  Broadly speaking, for every academic superstar who will be offered a large tuition discount (merit aid) to encourage them to choose the school (and thus help increase the school's status in various rankings, as well as increasing the average academic ability in classes), the school needs a student who is paying full freight, in order to keep the lights on and the teachers paid.  Obviously, a full-paying academic superstar would be the most desirable, but those kids may be reaching even higher and less likely to attend the school.  Taking on a few kids who are on the lower end of the school's academic range, but whose parents can help keep the school in business, ultimately benefits the school's scholarship students.  Providing a quality education isn't cheap.  The money has to come from somewhere.

I don't think that's the issue here.  Kids from the local public school system are getting full merit scholarships,right?  So neither of them would be paying.

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You didn't ask me, but I am going to answer anyway.  

I really don't see the academic benefit in diversity.  And, yes, I think it should be race and gender blind.  But, I do see an academic benefit in picking the most academic kids for an academic setting.  How many posts have we seen here from parents of kids in highly selective colleges talk about how wonderful it is that their kids have found their academic peers?  

 

And, yes, learning disabilities can definitely be an advantage.  

 

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-solution/2011/06/14/learning-disabilities-can-offer-college-admission-edge

 

Students at colleges which value diversity do not suffer at all from a lack of academic peers.  Highly selective schools admit top students and recognize that academics is just one aspect of what's learned in college life.   Homogenous schools don't offer what diverse ones do IMO. Diversity encompasses race, SES, nationality, geographic, etc..   But as students all have different perspectives and priorities, there's both diverse and non-diverse schools.   It's a matter of fit.

 

As for learning disabilities being an advantage, I think it can when the student is a high achiever despite these obstacles.  This college likes to admit high achievers from within it's city as many living there are lower SES and have overcome obstacles as well.

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Really? Can these folks also address the issue of accommodations? I realize that one can have LDs but not choose to pursue accommodations, so we don't know if he had the latter or not. Is having accommodations confidential? Maybe that's what I was thinking of. I suppose even if they are, that right would be waived if the student indicated s/he had them. But maybe they aren't confidential at all???

 

I suspect they are confidential on a need to know basis.  Here, every teacher gets to read about their students.  This includes me when I'm in for any length of time and feel I want to know.  

 

When one is asking for an LOR, one wants the (preferably favorable) opinion of the teacher/guidance.  It falls under need to know that this is part of the student the teacher is talking about.  It doesn't HAVE to be shared, but if the teacher is impressed, it's highly likely that it will come up in some fashion, esp since teachers know it can work favorably for a student.

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Honestly, I think justice would make things look different from how they look now.  The very idea of setting a quota of asians, and NEVER going above it, is kind of offensive.  If you read the article (Asians are the new Jews) Laura links, it's obvious that top schools do this.  I have no issue with overcoming LDs and then using it in your essay...but what if "overcoming" really simply takes the form of taking easier classes?  Maybe universities will want to fill their quota of mediocre athletes and legacies soon too.  Oh wait...

 

Yes, Muttichen, I am certain this school has a bias against home schoolers.  For one thing, it's a local place and I haven't known a single home schooled kid who's gone there.  They must be out there I'm sure, but I also searched College Confidential once and found zero evidence of a single case.

 

I think college admissions should take lots of factors into account, including ethnicity and obstacles in addition to grades, test scores and the traditional things.  I'm not necessarily against making allowances even for football teams and legacies who are donors, etc.  But really, this seems like an extreme case, AND there is that huge scholarship hanging on it.  You know, I wonder if schools try to maximize their "asian quota" with full pay international students.  From a financial standpoint, it would make sense.  All I can honestly think is that the further schools go in this direction, the more it will hurt them. 

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Don't underestimate the importance of this. Unless the school does needs-blind admissions, the ability to pay could factor into their decisions.  Broadly speaking, for every academic superstar who will be offered a large tuition discount (merit aid) to encourage them to choose the school (and thus help increase the school's status in various rankings, as well as increasing the average academic ability in classes), the school needs a student who is paying full freight, in order to keep the lights on and the teachers paid.  Obviously, a full-paying academic superstar would be the most desirable, but those kids may be reaching even higher and less likely to attend the school.  Taking on a few kids who are on the lower end of the school's academic range, but whose parents can help keep the school in business, ultimately benefits the school's scholarship students.  Providing a quality education isn't cheap.  The money has to come from somewhere.

 

This occurred to me as well, just not in terms of which student can pay (both students, according to the OP, would get free tuition).  I was thinking more along the lines of alumni support.  Also, in connection with PPs' speculation that the boy knows someone who put in a good word - it may be the other way around:  perhaps someone at the university knows who the boy's parents are (high profile attorney?  wildly successful local businesses?) and is sniffing around for long-term support.

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Another possible factor that I have not yet seen mentioned here is that adcoms likely consider the possibility of a student transferring.  Great Student applied ED, which means she's not banking on getting into Ivy as a freshman even though she's qualified, so she may be planning to take the free tuition for a year and then transfer.  The tuition deal then works against the school because even though they supported her while she was in a holding pattern, they won't be able to count Great Student among their graduates.

 

On the other hand, Strong But Not Great Student is more likely to stay for the long haul (based on whatever info they gleaned from his app), so he gets the prize.

 

All of this, of course, is wild speculation on my part.  I know nothing about the ins and outs of the Big Game.

 

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This occurred to me as well, just not in terms of which student can pay (both students, according to the OP, would get free tuition).  I was thinking more along the lines of alumni support.  Also, in connection with PPs' speculation that the boy knows someone who put in a good word - it may be the other way around:  perhaps someone at the university knows who the boy's parents are (high profile attorney?  wildly successful local businesses?) and is sniffing around for long-term support.

 

Both this and the idea that they may be reserving their Asian slots (mostly) for full pay students would fall under Life's Rule #2 - It's All About the Money.

 

It's very rare when life rules get bypassed.  (sigh)

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Another possible factor that I have not yet seen mentioned here is that adcoms likely consider the possibility of a student transferring.  Great Student applied ED, which means she's not banking on getting into Ivy as a freshman even though she's qualified, so she may be planning to take the free tuition for a year and then transfer.  The tuition deal then works against the school because even though they supported her while she was in a holding pattern, they won't be able to count Great Student among their graduates.

 

On the other hand, Strong But Not Great Student is more likely to stay for the long haul (based on whatever info they gleaned from his app), so he gets the prize.

 

All of this, of course, is wild speculation on my part.  I know nothing about the ins and outs of the Big Game.

 

This one is REALLY unlikely IME.

 

Chances are the young lady (and/or her parents) were just thrilled with the idea that she could be going to an Ivy caliber school tuition free and were willing to commit to that for all 4 years without reservations.

 

This school outranks many of the Ivies and is on par with the top schools.

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This one is REALLY unlikely IME.

 

Chances are the young lady (and/or her parents) were just thrilled with the idea that she could be going to an Ivy caliber school tuition free and were willing to commit to that for all 4 years without reservations.

 

This school outranks many of the Ivies and is on par with the top schools.

 

Oh.  :blushing:   Okay, then.  I have no idea what school it is.

 

In my defense, I did say up front that I have no idea what I'm talking about.  ;)

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I firmly believe it should be exclusively merit based, not financial or ethnic. Grades, tests, and extracurriculars, plus the essay, for all but a select portion of admission slots that are need based. Not a popular opinion, but this artificially enforced 'diversity' of admissions hasn't translated to diversity of thought on almost all campuses, anyway, because of the homogeneity of many of the university employees.

 

I firmly disagree with this.

 

There are students who truly do need consideration based upon their circumstances.  They may come from schools where AP is not offered.  They may come from areas where testing is not given the same emphasis as it is elsewhere (studying for the tests).  Their writing skills might be off due to what they've been given for a foundation.  They may not have a clue that a Top Flight college can be a path for them due to no experience of that path from their predecessors. LDs that are overcome can show a major work ethic that is to be admired, not given a glass ceiling.

 

But among these students there are still gems that can fly high and hold their own.  They just haven't had a chance to try.  I applaud when they get a chance.  Our country needs to continue looking for these students.

 

But in THIS situation - same school - same opportunities - I think admissions made at least one glaring error.

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Oh.  :blushing:   Okay, then.  I have no idea what school it is.

 

In my defense, I did say up front that I have no idea what I'm talking about.  ;)

 

The school makes US News' Top 25 list - on top of some Ivies.  Their programs can also rate above similar Ivy schools pending which program one is talking about.  It's no slouch of a school or organization as a whole - which is why it's incredibly annoying to hear/read so much negative "stuff" about it.  One expects top notch all around when one is dealing with a place perceived as top notch.  There's no reason they CAN'T have it all around.

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I firmly believe it should be exclusively merit based, not financial or ethnic.

That sounds nice, but where are elite private schools or even state flagships supposed to get the money for this? They rely on alumni donations to fund themselves long term. If their student base suddenly didn't look like their alumni and the alumni think their own kids have no chance of attending, they won't contribute. If the students are all academic superstars who don't go on to money-generating careers because they're all researchers, the school won't meet their budget within a generation.

 

If you truly want a merit-based system, we would need to switch to a socialist model where the government pays for all students who are expected to pay back into the system after graduation either through explicit tuition repayment or through much higher taxes.

 

Are you really advocating this model?

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I agree, not just my own zip code but nearly every one in my county would be an automatic rejection if merit or high achievement were the ONLY consideration. When your local high school only offers AP physics and AP calculus in ALTERNATING years, you are up a creek demonstrating that you are a diligent student and especially since DE doesn't necessarily do you any good if the CC your school uses is a poor one. We have that a lot in this state.

 

I prefer a wider range of criteria be included in the "formula" so that opportunity to attend a decent college is not merely an accident of birth, ie. parental income and zip code.

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Yes, Muttichen, I am certain this school has a bias against home schoolers.  For one thing, it's a local place and I haven't known a single home schooled kid who's gone there.  They must be out there I'm sure, but I also searched College Confidential once and found zero evidence of a single case.

 

 

 

In 2007, a boy we know from church was admitted.  He was a NMF and had two APs but NO classes outside his home.  His recommendations were from his pastor and his piano teacher.

 

In 2009, my oldest ds was admitted.  He also got into Harvard, Yale, MIT, etc.  A friend of his was also admitted.  He had a great books type education, some CC classes, ok but not amazing test scores, no APs.

 

For the record, none of these kids ended up going there for one reason or another.

 

Since then, I don't know a single homeschooler who's been admitted and I know a number of kids who have been very well qualified and have applied.  I'll let you know what happens with my ds!

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As an adult with LDs, and a mother of students with LDs, I categorically, inflexibly, and vehemently reject the notion that having an LD is "an advantage."  Lord have mercy!  Does anybody really believe that I would ask to be created in the form which I was?  That I would want my children to have struggled so much? 

 

Given only the information shared, (as I shall assume there is information not shared, or not known to OP to be shared), I understand the unhappy feelings of OP.  Likely I would have similar twinges (but not outrage).  It is not at all unreasonable to me to think that an "average" student who nonetheless exhibits drive, coupled, perhaps, with an overtly good character, could be granted this scholarship.  College, as does life, encompasses far more than mere grades.  

 

I believe that the talented, young Asian woman will land on her feet, successfully.   

 

 

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As an adult with LDs, and a mother of students with LDs, I categorically, inflexibly, and vehemently reject the notion that having an LD is "an advantage."  Lord have mercy!  Does anybody really believe that I would ask to be created in the form which I was?  That I would want my children to have struggled so much? 

 

Given only the information shared, (as I shall assume there is information not shared, or not known to OP to be shared), I understand the unhappy feelings of OP.  Likely I would have similar twinges (but not outrage).  It is not at all unreasonable to me to think that an "average" student who nonetheless exhibits drive, coupled, perhaps, with an overtly good character, could be granted this scholarship.  College, as does life, encompasses far more than mere grades.   

 

FWIW, I think the "advantage" reference merely meant "admissions hook," not "good thing to be desired."

 

While I think it's possible for a student with average high school grades to gain admission to such a tippy-top school, I'd have to guess that the average grades were a result of the LDs balancing out high intelligence.  If a student with LDs isn't 2e (or at least 2e-ish), then admission to a tippy-top school in such case would seem highly unlikely.

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Good question. I'm assuming the applications ask? Personally, I'd feel rather reluctant to note anything of the sort unless the diagnosis is such that accommodations are available and are going to be requested.

The Common App doesn't ask. My son chose not to disclose, but on my school profile, there is a sentence that refers to difficulty in a first grade classroom as the reason we started homeschooling. It is possible that a recommender said something.

 

My son was very strongly encouraged by the college application consultant we worked with to write an essay about his disabilities but he chose to write about his love for robotics instead.

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That sounds nice, but where are elite private schools or even state flagships supposed to get the money for this? They rely on alumni donations to fund themselves long term. If their student base suddenly didn't look like their alumni and the alumni think their own kids have no chance of attending, they won't contribute. If the students are all academic superstars who don't go on to money-generating careers because they're all researchers, the school won't meet their budget within a generation.

 

If you truly want a merit-based system, we would need to switch to a socialist model where the government pays for all students who are expected to pay back into the system after graduation either through explicit tuition repayment or through much higher taxes.

 

Are you really advocating this model?

 

I disagree here too.  This would be akin to saying all of the offspring of alumni are underperforming and shouldn't be going to these types of schools.  That's really, really not true.

 

The real deal is that there are oodles of students who qualify for the Top Flight Us out there - more than fit into their classes.

 

It's not difficult to get any mix they want and still have a qualified class.  There's no problem keeping support going.  The key lies in who picks the mix and what standards are they going to use.  Different schools choose differently based upon their desires.

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I didn't read the original post in time to catch the school's name.  Do people frequently misspell the first name?

 

If that is the school we are referring to, my son was offered admission to the biomedical engineering program this fall.  He has very high stats, research published in the American Heart Association Journal and other journals  that I can't remember the name of, and he was a recruited athlete.  He declined the offer because he feels another school on his list is a better fit, but homeschooling was not a problem. 

 

However, having said that, recruited athletes have a completely different admissions path than a typical applicant at the vast majority of schools.  Many of my boys' peers commit to their Ivy or Ivy peer as early as the winter of their junior year.  I have never seen one of these kids that declared at that point not matriculate.

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