What if your dh said...

[Ann.without.an.e]

Has your friend ever checked up on him to see if he's telling the truth? Could he be involved with another woman or man at the office? Is she 100% sure all of the money is where she believes it to be? Does she have access to all of the accounts? Do the numbers add up?  I don't think she should be taking him at his word when there are such huge problems in the marriage.

 

 

She is 100% sure of where all money goes.  She has more access to financial records than he does.  His check is direct deposit.  They work equally on the finances.

[Ann.without.an.e]

 

 

 

 

This was incredibly helpful. Thank you so much.

[marbel]

My answer to what I would do is - I would go talk to my pastor. He (along with the other church leaders) would approach my husband and come alongside to try to help us, and if they could not convince him to get help, they would help me figure out what to do.

 

Obviously that's not going to work for everyone and maybe not an option for your friend. I get a creepy feeling from the comment by the husband that the problem is "spiritual." Anyway, that is an option if she belongs to a church, though I suppose a lot depends on the beliefs of the church regarding men, women, and marriage.

[ktgrok]

He is NOT a good dad and a good husband if he is incapable of love and being loving. 

 

Is he able to show love to the children? If so, he isn't empty inside, is he? Which blows the argument for his being unable to love his wife. 

 

If he is "empty" inside, and can't feel love, then he probably isn't being loving to the children, and they NEED love. 

[gardenmom5]

he really needs medical help.  there are many potential causes, and he really doesn't have to feel this way.

 

dd said when they dispense antidepressants to men, they've been counseled to tell them "this will help you sleep".

 

 

eta:  nutrition matters. there are also many supplements that are helpful - that are not "meds".  does she know if depression runs in his family?

also, major stress can mimic depression's effects and demands upon the brain - could it be he is very overstressed?  no matter which it is, it needs to be treated - but how it is treated varies.

[Ann.without.an.e]

He is NOT a good dad and a good husband if he is incapable of love and being loving.

 

Is he able to show love to the children? If so, he isn't empty inside, is he? Which blows the argument for his being unable to love his wife.

 

If he is "empty" inside, and can't feel love, then he probably isn't being loving to the children, and they NEED love.

He can't feel affectionate, but his greatest way of showing love has always been service and not words/affection. His wife never has to ask him to do anything - he does laundry, works in the yard, and he doesn't need a honey do list - he works faithfully. If the kids ask to play a game with him before bed, often he will (unless he is in the middle of something). He doesn't really give positive emotional feedback at all, but that isn't how he shows love anyway, if that makes sense?

[Ann.without.an.e]

My answer to what I would do is - I would go talk to my pastor. He (along with the other church leaders) would approach my husband and come alongside to try to help us, and if they could not convince him to get help, they would help me figure out what to do. Obviously that's not going to work for everyone and maybe not an option for your friend. I get a creepy feeling from the comment by the husband that the problem is "spiritual." Anyway, that is an option if she belongs to a church, though I suppose a lot depends on the beliefs of the church regarding men, women, and marriage.

 

He is struggling with his faith and involving pastors would probably exacerbate the issue, but that would be a good idea if the church/faith weren't his biggest struggle and depression point.

[Catwoman]

She is 100% sure of where all money goes. She has more access to financial records than he does. His check is direct deposit. They work equally on the finances.

I am very relieved to hear that!

 

But just because he's too cheap to buy a sandwich for lunch doesn't mean she has to be the same way. I'm not saying she should spend every dime they have saved, but if she recognizes that his behavior is extreme, I see no reason why she can't choose to spend money differently than he chooses to spend it. It seems pretty obvious that she's not going to go hog-wild -- but she and the kids have needs and wants that could and should be satisfied even if they cost some money.

 

How does the dh feel about things like birthday and Christmas gifts? Is he thrifty with the whole family or just about buying things for himself?

[Catwoman]

He is struggling with his faith and involving pastors would probably exacerbate the issue, but that would be a good idea if the church/faith weren't his biggest struggle and depression point.

OK, now I'm confused. He is having trouble loving his wife and feeling affectionate toward his own children because he's having faith/church issues? :confused:

[Catwoman]

He can't feel affectionate, but his greatest way of showing love has always been service and not words/affection. His wife never has to ask him to do anything - he does laundry, works in the yard, and he doesn't need a honey do list - he works faithfully. If the kids ask to play a game with him before bed, often he will (unless he is in the middle of something). He doesn't really give positive emotional feedback at all, but that isn't how he shows love anyway, if that makes sense?

I think Katie was asking if he has always been this way or if it's a new thing for him.

 

I have to say that if he was always like this, yet your friend still married him and kept having children with him, I have far less sympathy for her than if this is something that only started recently. I had assumed that things used to be warm and affectionate between them, and the dh recently changed.

[Guest]

He can't feel affectionate, but his greatest way of showing love has always been service and not words/affection. His wife never has to ask him to do anything - he does laundry, works in the yard, and he doesn't need a honey do list - he works faithfully. If the kids ask to play a game with him before bed, often he will (unless he is in the middle of something). He doesn't really give positive emotional feedback at all, but that isn't how he shows love anyway, if that makes sense?

My own dad is/was like this and, while I am grateful that he provided for our tangible needs, it is still emotionally harmful to grow up emotionally abandoned by dad. I struggle, even now, with feeling worthy of others' love and regard. My dad was always a kind man, but he was "checked out" most of the time. My mom walked on eggshells for fear of bothering him and we absorbed that attitude.

[countrygal]

OK, now I'm confused. He is having trouble loving his wife and feeling affectionate toward his own children because he's having faith/church issues? :confused:

 

I'm just trying to clarify for a bit of understanding. For many Christians, their faith is a way of life. It defines what the believe, affects just about everything they do, and if this man is struggling to believe or is doubting what he believed is true his whole life, he's probably feeling like his life has been a lie and/or he doesn't know how to continue on with life if he abandons his faith. Maybe he doesn't want to admit this to his wife, because it can be devastating to her. Therefore, it is easier for him to withdraw and escape into work in an effort to protect his wife. Other ways of affection may not come easily to him naturally to begin with, then with this personal battle inside him, it's nearly impossible.

 

If this is the case, he does need a GOOD pastor to help sort out his feelings. One that lacks understanding into the doubts people feel at times or when they are depressed don't help, they do make it worse!!

[Ann.without.an.e]

How does the dh feel about things like birthday and Christmas gifts? Is he thrifty with the whole family or just about buying things for himself?

 

She feels the freedom to buy a reasonable amount of gifts for Birthdays/Christmas for the kids.  He will sometimes buy her things for her birthday but is usually limited to a card and candy.  

 

OK, now I'm confused. He is having trouble loving his wife and feeling affectionate toward his own children because he's having faith/church issues? :confused:

 

For some people, it isn't religion....it is everything they are, everything they do, and the very reason they breathe.  You either understand or you don't and that is ok if you don't.  He has had deep struggles with the church and though he is a teacher and a very godly man he feels left out and like an outsider looking in.  The contradictions in people (not God) are caving in on him and he feels like he can't trust anyone.  Sometimes he questions his faith but mostly just American Christianity.

 

I think Katie was asking if he has always been this way or if it's a new thing for him.

 

 

 

It is new.  Steadily increasing for about 2 years.  He has always struggled with short bouts of depression but this is different....it is chronic.  He used to leave her love letters and be super genuinely caring for her as a person.  While he was never sappy, he had no problem showing love, attraction, etc.

 

 

My own dad is/was like this and, while I am grateful that he provided for our tangible needs, it is still emotionally harmful to grow up emotionally abandoned by dad. I struggle, even now, with feeling worthy of others' love and regard. My dad was always a kind man, but he was "checked out" most of the time. My mom walked on eggshells for fear of bothering him and we absorbed that attitude.

 

 

I'm sorry your dad was this way.  It hurts.  This person sometimes walks on eggshells and yes....her kids see that.  She is trying to get better with that.  If you have any tips, she would love to know them ;)

 

I'm just trying to clarify for a bit of understanding. For many Christians, their faith is a way of life. It defines what the believe, affects just about everything they do, and if this man is struggling to believe or is doubting what he believed is true his whole life, he's probably feeling like his life has been a lie and/or he doesn't know how to continue on with life if he abandons his faith. Maybe he doesn't want to admit this to his wife, because it can be devastating to her. Therefore, it is easier for him to withdraw and escape into work in an effort to protect his wife. Other ways of affection may not come easily to him naturally to begin with, then with this personal battle inside him, it's nearly impossible.

 

 

This :)

[Crimson Wife]

The OP mentioned medical bills. If one of the kids has special needs and/or a chronic medical condition that can be incredibly stressful on the family. Guys often like to fix things, and when there is something that cannot be fixed, that can be really hard on them. My youngest child's autism diagnosis was followed shortly by a largescale reorganization of my DH's then-employer and the combo of work & family stress was very difficult.

 

For me, love is a conscious choice and while I can't do anything about circumstances beyond my control, I can make the decision to love my DH through the rough patches. We're a team and I'm not going to bail on him right when he needs me the most. I take the "for better or worse" part of my marriage vows very seriously, and that commitment has helped up weather all the ups & downs of the past 7 years.

[Elisabet1]

I would think he is having an affair.

[HS Mom in NC]

For many people depression can be triggered or exacerbated by a crisis of faith. My husband's been there.

 

Adultery can be a real issue and there have been men who have used feeling depressed as an excuse for an affair.  However, since adultery is such a serious issue, only discuss it in terms of a possibility unless you have evidence of it being a reality.

 

Be very careful before insisting that someone with depression be categorically written off as unloving the way someone without depression would be.  This is a medical condition.  Would you decide a woman has an obligation to leave her husband if he had chronic physical pain that made him unable to be as affectionate toward his wife and kids?  Would you say that of someone with dementia? Based on what the OP has to say, this man has been described as kind and respectful.  That's not kick him to the curb behavior.  If he was being cruel or completely absent in a relationship, that's more serious, but we have to stick to the situation at hand.

[MomatHWTK]

And if it were the woman who was expressing these feelings due to depression? 

[sbgrace]

I am 99.9% sure that this man is not having an affair and that he wouldn't have an affair.  He is a very trustworthy person with a very strong sense of right/wrong and is just a very faithful person.

 

 

I don't at all think there is anything indicating there is an ongoing affair. However, people are right that he's vulnerable to one under these circumstances. Trustworthy, faithful people with good senses of right and wrong really do end up in affairs. I've seen it. And everyone is shocked, including the person themselves. Not Just Friends describes how this most often occurs, and very commonly it is through work. People who think they aren't the kind of person who would ever do such a thing are actually more vulnerable honestly. Please do pass along the information the person shared about his vulnerability, because it is true. 

[Joanne]

"Nobody has claimed any point of fact or accused him of anything."

 

I guess insinuated would be a better word.

 

Talking about things parallel to depression--adultery, workaholism--that is really beside the point, to my mind.

 

I hear what you are saying and I'm not arguing that she should not take care of herself. Absolutely she should.

 

What I object to is the tone throughout the thread that somehow, this guy's depression "may be really something else".

 

Sure, it MIGHT. But really? Who says something like that? I've been on both sides of the coin and I can't say that in either case, setting an ultimatum for ending my depression or his would have helped at all.

 

(Though, getting a job--I'm for everyone getting a job, that always helps.)

It feels as though we are reading different threads. I see post after post about support - and encouragement - for depression.

 

I also see some feedback that the situation could be consistent with other situations. That remains true - what has been offered in this thread may also be part of the constellation.

[Catwoman]

I'm just trying to clarify for a bit of understanding. For many Christians, their faith is a way of life. It defines what the believe, affects just about everything they do, and if this man is struggling to believe or is doubting what he believed is true his whole life, he's probably feeling like his life has been a lie and/or he doesn't know how to continue on with life if he abandons his faith. Maybe he doesn't want to admit this to his wife, because it can be devastating to her. Therefore, it is easier for him to withdraw and escape into work in an effort to protect his wife. Other ways of affection may not come easily to him naturally to begin with, then with this personal battle inside him, it's nearly impossible.

 

If this is the case, he does need a GOOD pastor to help sort out his feelings. One that lacks understanding into the doubts people feel at times or when they are depressed don't help, they do make it worse!!

Thank you, countrygal! :)

[Catwoman]

And if it were the woman who was expressing these feelings due to depression?

I would assume we would be saying the same things.

[Catwoman]

She feels the freedom to buy a reasonable amount of gifts for Birthdays/Christmas for the kids. He will sometimes buy her things for her birthday but is usually limited to a card and candy.

 

 

For some people, it isn't religion....it is everything they are, everything they do, and the very reason they breathe. You either understand or you don't and that is ok if you don't. He has had deep struggles with the church and though he is a teacher and a very godly man he feels left out and like an outsider looking in. The contradictions in people (not God) are caving in on him and he feels like he can't trust anyone. Sometimes he questions his faith but mostly just American Christianity.

 

 

It is new. Steadily increasing for about 2 years. He has always struggled with short bouts of depression but this is different....it is chronic. He used to leave her love letters and be super genuinely caring for her as a person. While he was never sappy, he had no problem showing love, attraction, etc.

Thanks for the clarification. Since this is something that hasn't always been the norm, it definitely sounds like the guy needs some help. If he wants to remain in the marriage, I think your friend has every right to insist on marriage counseling -- and because he is having issues with his religious beliefs, I would think a secular counselor would be the best choice, so they could focus on the specific problems in the marriage and how to work through them without adding the religious element. Look for practical solutions rather than spiritual ones for now and deal with the rest as they go along. If he is truly depressed, he should probably be seeing a different person for that.

 

Basically, It sounds like he needs help but won't get it. Fine for right now -- she can't make him solve his own issues. But the marriage needs help, too, and maybe your friend has to separate her dh's personal problems from their marital problems for now, even though it appears that his personal problems are causing the family trouble. I guess I'm thinking that she might have a better shot at success if she presents it to him as a "we need help" issue than a "you need help" situation. Maybe he would be more agreeable if he thought it would keep his family together, rather than admitting right away that he may have a psychological problem that needs to be addressed.

[Carrie12345]

I am married to a man who suffers from long-term, chronic, roller coaster depression, usually untreated. (Which, by the way, is "contagious" in a way.)

It is an incredibly difficult road. Honestly, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, whether they have zero kids or 19.  

 

And yet, here I am, working on it.  But my husband is also actively working on it. I deeply love him and, when he's not in an absolute pit of despair, he deeply loves me.  During the time he was, and he didn't, I could not allow him to be here.  It was an absolutely miserable period (twice!) but without acknowledgment of the problem and serious effort to address it, there's nothing.  IMO and IME, of course.

[ktgrok]

For many people depression can be triggered or exacerbated by a crisis of faith. My husband's been there.

 

Adultery can be a real issue and there have been men who have used feeling depressed as an excuse for an affair.  However, since adultery is such a serious issue, only discuss it in terms of a possibility unless you have evidence of it being a reality.

 

Be very careful before insisting that someone with depression be categorically written off as unloving the way someone without depression would be.  This is a medical condition.  Would you decide a woman has an obligation to leave her husband if he had chronic physical pain that made him unable to be as affectionate toward his wife and kids?  Would you say that of someone with dementia? Based on what the OP has to say, this man has been described as kind and respectful.  That's not kick him to the curb behavior.  If he was being cruel or completely absent in a relationship, that's more serious, but we have to stick to the situation at hand.

 

The problem isn't the depression, it is his unwillingness to get treatment for it, or do anything to improve the situation. If I had a husband in chronic pain who refused to take the proper medication, and was therefore a jerk, yeah, that would be a problem. I would expect him to do whatever he could to make the situation better. I know depression is hard. But at some point, you have to accept treatment if it is going to improve. I know doing that is hard. I scheduled my husbands appts for him, did everything I could to make it easier for him, but in the end, he didn't want to change. He was used to being the way he was, and was comfortable with it. That wasn't good enough.

[HS Mom in NC]

The problem isn't the depression, it is his unwillingness to get treatment for it, or do anything to improve the situation. If I had a husband in chronic pain who refused to take the proper medication, and was therefore a jerk, yeah, that would be a problem. I would expect him to do whatever he could to make the situation better. I know depression is hard. But at some point, you have to accept treatment if it is going to improve. I know doing that is hard. I scheduled my husbands appts for him, did everything I could to make it easier for him, but in the end, he didn't want to change. He was used to being the way he was, and was comfortable with it. That wasn't good enough.

 

People who suffer from depression don't always think clearly because they often can't so, yes, it may very well be part of the depression.  Also, anti-depressants and talk therapy don't have particularly high success rates. So while the wife should encourage him to seek out help, she does need to be prepared for the real possibility that this may be the new normal.

 

 He isn't acting like a jerk, he's being kind and respectful according to the OP.  I have no idea why people can't seem to keep that in mind. I'm entirely familiar with things not being good enough sometimes.  I disagree that that is categorically grounds for leaving or a divorce.  There are certain behaviors that do warrant divorce in my book: abuse, adultery or abandonment (meaning actually leaving) and based on what the OP has said about her friend's situation, none of that criteria has been met. So, until it has, you aren't going to hear me recommend divorce or separation.

 

[Mrs Mungo]

Part of the problem is the question is not, "what should I do?" The question is phrased as, "what would YOU do?" Don't you think the latter is implied with "what if your dh said..."

 

I wouldn't accept no emotional connection with or support from my dh as a "new normal." That isn't something that would work for me.

[Catwoman]

People who suffer from depression don't always think clearly because they often can't so, yes, it may very well be part of the depression. Also, anti-depressants and talk therapy don't have particularly high success rates. So while the wife should encourage him to seek out help, she does need to be prepared for the real possibility that this may be the new normal.

 

He isn't acting like a jerk, he's being kind and respectful according to the OP. I have no idea why people can't seem to keep that in mind. I'm entirely familiar with things not being good enough sometimes. I disagree that that is categorically grounds for leaving or a divorce. There are certain behaviors that do warrant divorce in my book: abuse, adultery or abandonment (meaning actually leaving) and based on what the OP has said about her friend's situation, none of that criteria has been met. So, until it has, you aren't going to hear me recommend divorce or separation.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Charleigh's friend separate from her dh unless he continues to refuse to get help for his problems.

 

I do think emotional abandonment is a perfectly valid reason for divorce, though, and it sounds as though this poor woman's marriage is headed in that direction. I applaud her for recognizing the problem and wanting to find a solution. If, however, her dh is content with this "new normal" and refuses to make an effort to improve the situation despite the wife's best efforts, I would hate to see her accept the idea of remaining in a loveless marriage.

 

It's all well and good that her dh is kind and respectful, but that is what you expect from a good roommate; most of us want more from a spouse.

[ktgrok]

Part of being in a marriage, in our society, without other extended emotional support, is to provide that emotional support. He needs to accept help. Not initiate it, I get that that is too hard. But accept it. Accept being driven to the appt, sitting there, etc. Fill out the paperwork when handed to him, and someone helping him. Etc. 

[LibraryLover]

I'm not a doctor, as they say, but it sounds an awful like deep and dangerous depression. So much so that he may not be able to 'get help'.

 

 

The brain is a complicated organ.

 

 

[Mrs Mungo]

The whole body is a complicated organ. If someone had a different chronic illness would someone say, "get used to it; it might be a new normal?" No, they would insist the person go to doctors and seek medical help. Nobody has said he should suck it up. People have said that if their dh said that, then they would help him get medical help, even insist upon it. No, the first doctor might not be able to help. My son saw probably 15 or 20 different doctors (between various specialities and moving) over the course of *ten years* before he was actually given a diagnosis. Saying that you don't believe a doctor can help you is a cop-out. Even without a diagnosis, doctors managed to treat and/or manage many of his symptoms. Getting healthy and well is an imperfect process. I couldn't live with someone with unmedicated bipolar disease *or* a diabetic who didn't manage their disease. They would both make a non-working woman with kids very vulnerable. They are both scary. Yes, doctors can help with many of the causes of depression and/or help manage symptoms.

[LibraryLover]

The assumption that he's having an affair seems unfair.  Why assume affair?

[Catwoman]

The assumption that he's having an affair seems unfair. Why assume affair?

Why not mention it as a possibility? :confused:

 

At first, it sounded as though it might be a possibility, considering both his words and actions. Many people emotionally distance themselves from their families when they are either having an affair or thinking about having one, so I don't see why it would be considered unfair to suggest it as something to consider.

 

No one said it was definite. Charleigh asked us what we would think if our dhs said what her friend's husband said, and we voiced our opinions.

 

Frankly, I don't know the guy, so I don't particularly care if what I suggested might be considered unfair to him. Obviously, if Charleigh had told us she was talking about her own dh, I would have tried to be more delicate in my phrasing, and I'm sure others would have done the same.

[Ann.without.an.e]

It is okay that unfaithfulness was mentioned.  I did ask "what would you do" and if that is what your concern would be then it is fair to state it.  

 

I don't think that unfaithfulness is an issue in this situation, but I see how it could be in some circumstances of depression and coldness.  I am not offended by the question of an affair...it simply wasn't where my mind was going, but I have the unfair advantage of actually knowing the individuals and situation better. 

[Mrs Mungo]

FWIW, I had a family member (by marriage) who was the last person anyone would think of as having an affair. He was a deacon in the church, a business leader, he had been with his wife faithfully for 20 years already. But, when depressed and struggling in life, that is where he turned. It happens. He and his wife reconciled, but it took a long time to get through those issues and they were separated for a while. They both went to separate counseling, then counseling together.

[LLMom]

I would urge her to go to therapy or talk to someone at her church if she attends.  Dealing with a depressed person is very hard, but so is being a depressed person.  Depression lies to people and you really do think you are worthless and that things are hopeless.  

Maybe she could find some type of support group either IRL or online.  It is good her husband says he is committed to her.  

[Crimson Wife]

The assumption that he's having an affair seems unfair.  Why assume affair?

 

I think it's unfair to assume it is happening or will happen, but perfectly reasonable to point out that the situation is one that can leave one or both spouses vulnerable to temptation. I don't think being in a marriage perceived as "loveless" ever justifies adultery, but it certainly has been used as an excuse by plenty of adulterers over the years.

[StephanieZ]

If he's not willing to get help, then he has abandoned the marriage and the family. I really doubt it'd be in her or her kids' best interests to live with that. If he is true to his word, he will be generous financially when she asks him to move out -- either to separate or divorce. Or, he might actually see the light and get help if he values his family more than his pride/laziness/fear (or whatever else prevents him from getting help).

 

If my dh said that to me, I'd likely spend at least a year or two trying to get him to see the light and get help . . . maybe wait for a "good time" to come in the typical ebb and flow of depression -- when maybe he'd be more receptive to getting help . . . and experiment on my own with diet, vitamins, exercise, full spectrum lighting, etc . . . and, if, after the best efforts I could muster to help him and get him to get help continued to fail . . . then I'd move forward with legal separation for my own sanity and for the well being of our kids. I don't think living in a household with that kind of profound depression is healthy for anyone. I'd be very sad for my spouse, but I wouldn't be willing to live with it forever. He is choosing death and dying if he refuses to get help . . . and that is not fair for the rest of the family. It is selfish and not OK, in my book, so I think he's abandoned his vows. The vows, in my opinion, require us to commit to being as well as we can be, as alive as we can be, and true complete people . . . not hollow shells.