Homeschool or high school?

[madteaparty]

DS is going to high school. We will have to move to make it happen, but he won't be homeschooled for high school unless there are extreme circumstances.

[wapiti]

This is what I wonder. I'm all for working harder than the next guy & taking the most rigorous courses available to you. I think it's important.

 

But, does it have to cost everything? OR if it does cost everything..are you really the target student anyway? 

 

He imagines being able to teach at his TKD school as a teen, continuing his instrument, & play a team sport FOR JOY. If he couldn't teach & play he would wither up. I wouldn't wish that upon anyone.

 

FWIW, I don't think excessive quantity of work necessarily has all that much to do with rigor.  I can't remember whether it's from reading here or hearing IRL, but I too would be wary of work quantity vs quality in a particular IB program.  A similar question applies to AP courses because the workload may differ at different schools.  At the open houses we attended, I flat out asked about work load in various APs, not only of the student guide but also the actual instructor, including asking for a comparison to the workload of the regular, required non-honors/non-AP course.  For certain courses, the difference wasn't much, whereas for others, it may be something to keep in mind when choosing a schedule.

 

It seems that you need a lot more information on the particular IB program in question.  I have a friend who loved her IB program and is planning for her very bright ds to do the IB program at the local PS, but I wonder how well it will work out.  I would recommend keeping all options on the table, including the AP angle in lieu of IB.  I would work on figuring out whether another path might provide more flexibility than IB.

 

The time to develop and deepen personal interests is important and I'd guess you are on the right track in allowing some time priority for his interests.  I don't know how it will pan out for my kids but I'm hopeful that the school we are aiming for has the right mix - for example, a lot of the clubs (including the math club) meet during the long lunch rather than after school.  The school is at a very high level for sports, which can be very time-consuming, and I'm hoping that may have an affect on the level of homework load more generally (I don't expect that my kids will play sports through the school).  The school always has some students who are admitted to selective and highly-selective schools each year, which helps my comfort with the level of college prep.

[madteaparty]

  At the open houses we attended, I flat out asked about work load in various APs, not only of the student guide but also the actual instructor, including asking for a comparison to the workload of the regular, required non-honors/non-AP course.  For certain courses, the difference wasn't much, whereas for others, it may be something to keep in mind when choosing a schedule.

Butting in--sorry. How do you ask about this, do they give you a schedule or syllabus? We will start attending open houses next fall and I don't know how to frame my AP-related questions so as not to get some generic answer that means nothing.

[EKS]

This jumped out at me b/c all of the kids I know in IB programs have no free time.  Their IB courses contain so much busy work that they have hours upon hours of homework.  

 

I wouldn't call my son's IB homework busywork, but there was a lot of it, and he was working all the time.

[wapiti]

Butting in--sorry. How do you ask about this, do they give you a schedule or syllabus? We will start attending open houses next fall and I don't know how to frame my AP-related questions so as not to get some generic answer that means nothing.

 

I just asked "what is the work load like?" and the instructor proceeded to tell me, roughly, how much time per night (of course this will differ on different nights).  For example, the regular sophomore history class might have less reading/writing than the AP world history class - the required reading length should be easy for the teacher to compare overall if not nightly or weekly.  The students can also give you another perspective, though different students work more or less efficiently.  Eta, in the same conversation, you can ask about AP grades - I asked how many 4s and 5s, even though one instructor wanted to talk about the 3s too.  When considering these, I also consider where within the class my child probably fits for the academic ability related to that subject (this I have an idea of from the practice admissions test scores).

 

I asked more questions this year (dd in 8th gr) even though we attended the very same open houses last year (7th).  It was helpful to have been through them twice.  These are both private schools - I don't know whether public schools offer open houses.  The teachers were more than happy to talk at length and answer all questions - don't be afraid to be as specific as you'd like.  I even asked them to compare their department on the subject to that of the other private school; sometimes they didn't know, but often they had a little something to say in comparison (e.g. the math dept head at one school used to work at the other school).

 

N.B.:  write down what they say, either after you leave the teacher's classroom or at least when you get home.  I am having trouble remembering specifics.  Two weeks later and after an open house at a different school, I remember the more general gist, but not exactly what they told me, or else I'd be able to report it to you here :tongue_smilie:.

 

Some schools/teachers will offer a copy of the syllabus and I wish I had taken more of the ones that were offered.  Others won't.  There was an outline of the possible course progression/choices on a white board in the designated classroom for each subject.  Texts and other books were available for perusal.  In most cases, the course catalog is available on the school's website, well worth looking through carefully prior to the open house so that you can ask more detailed questions (editing to add, last year I went so far as to draw up a hypothetical 4-year schedule to compare the schools, because one appears on the surface to be much more flexible than the other and has fewer requirements, but in reality, the way courses are scheduled with certain ones requiring more than a full block or being conjoined with another required class, there wouldn't be as much extra time as I had thought originally).

[MBM]

Some public schools do offer open houses. The three that my kids attended have an annual open house where parents and prospective students can ask teachers questions and see what is used to teach. Many of the teachers also lay out the books and material they're using at the fall parent-teacher conferences. I wish more schools would do this.

 

Whatever school you visit -- public, private -- try to verify with other parents what the school has told you. We have encountered schools that just out and out lie.

 

How much time students need for AP classes varies. Some students need more time while others are okay with less. Some teachers can teach AP classes well and others cannot. My son is having to teach himself AP Physics C this year because his teacher doesn't teach the material at all. If you go the AP route, see if the school offers a similar non-AP class that is not as difficult and find out if they'll allow students to drop down if the AP class is too much. That is what our public school does.

 

Also, in regard to schools and AP exams, find out the scores as well. Some of the high school rankings are based on the number of AP exams taken and don't take into account the scores.

[Reefgazer]

Have you looked into enrolling him in an out-of-state college to take a course or two that way?  I believe there are several states have cut-off ages that are 14 for college admittance.  As a general rule, I don't think online classes are as high quality as face to face classes and so that wouldn't be my first option, but it may be the best option if you are stuck.  I admit selfish interest in asking this question, because it may become an option for DD in the future and I was wondering how it would fly.  But perhaps that is an option for your DS for math?

We're torn with this, as well.  We would like DS12 to attend the public school for three reasons: to have a chance at guaranteed acceptance at the big state schools, to be eligible for scholarships, and to get used to studying in an environment with thousands of students.  However, we fear he will be bored out of his skull, and the option could backfire.

 

We are deliberately slowing his math progression down.  He completed algebra 2, geometry, and AoPS introduction to probability by the end of 6th grade.  The local school will allow him to accelerate as far as AP calculus in 9th, but he would only be able to take AP calc, multivariate calc, and AP stats (blech).  So, we are adding AoPS intermediate algebra, symbolic logic, extended geometry, AoPS probability & counting, and AoPS number theory to slow him down and have him ready for precalc in 9th.  That still leaves only three quality math subjects for high school (stats has little value for many US scientific bachelor's degrees, as it is far too basic).  4ofus, for your school, you should contact the counselor to discuss independent or guided study beyond what is published.  Many schools offer options, either onsite, or online.  Ours does not.

 

For English, Latin, and German, DS will be ok.  They will be relatively easy, but the extra time would benefit him greatly.  The school offers GT sections for English, and he should enjoy those.

 

For sciences and history courses, trouble is lurking.  He's studying at an AP level already (though not with the pressure of harsh grading or testing).  He would enter high school having completed the equivalent of AP physics B (or 1/2, as you'd prefer), AP chemistry, AP biology, AP computer science, AP psychology, AP US history, AP world history, and AP European history.  These wouldn't show on his transcript, but his knowledge will be on par with the typical student for those courses.  He studied this material for the joy of the material -- he hasn't achieved mastery (nor should he at his age, imho).

 

He isn't mature enough for college, but we feel that is our only other option, because we do not have the qualifications to teach higher-level chemistry, biology, or history.  Local colleges do not allow kids under 16 to attend, so we would have to wait a couple of years for that, no matter what.  That would put us cramming for a couple of years to prepare for a second-rate college.  Not a great option, either.

 

EoO, have you run into subjects where your son seems destined to exceed your expertise?  What are your plans in that scenario?

 

[Mike in SA]

Have you looked into enrolling him in an out-of-state college to take a course or two that way?  I believe there are several states have cut-off ages that are 14 for college admittance.  As a general rule, I don't think online classes are as high quality as face to face classes and so that wouldn't be my first option, but it may be the best option if you are stuck.  I admit selfish interest in asking this question, because it may become an option for DD in the future and I was wondering how it would fly.  But perhaps that is an option for your DS for math?

 

It would be an 5-600 mile drive each way.  :)

 

Honestly, I think we'll be fine, either way we end up going.  We're just nervous, as parents tend to be...

[Dmmetler]

It would be an 5-600 mile drive each way. :)

 

Honestly, I think we'll be fine, either way we end up going. We're just nervous, as parents tend to be...

Yeah, I hear you. There's actually an in-state school that participates in middle college (in an area that doesn't have a 2 yr school) has a great field bio program, and seems like it might be a good fit for DD, but it's 3 hours away. That's a long drive for DE, especially since most bio courses with lab meet 4x/week! (We're doing about that so DD can have lab access, but she's only going for the lab once every few weeks, and is doing the rest closer to home).

[eternalsummer]

Goodness.  I've never heard of so little choice in an IB programme.  I had always assumed that a school would have to offer choice to be accredited.  For comparison, and for those looking at IB schools, the boys' school offers (from memory):

 

Maths: studies, standard level, higher level (maybe further?  I'm not sure)

English: standard, higher and second language

German and Chinese: standard, higher and first language

French, Latin, Spanish: standard and higher

Italian: ab initio (standard)

Physics, Chemistry, Biology: standard and higher

Psychology: standard

Geography and History: standard and higher

Economics: standard

Art, music and drama: standard and higher.

 

L

 

 

When I was in high school, I got the IB diploma; our school was 2400+ kids and was accredited with IB.  We had no choice about what to pursue higher or standard level

 

Math - Standard

History - Higher

English - Higher

Spanish/French/German - Standard

Biology/Chemistry - Higher

Psychology/Technology - Standard

Physics - Standard

Art - Higher (but no one in the Diploma program ever did it because you had to have been on an accelerated art path from like 7th grade)

 

The math was just Geometry, Alg. II (those were the pre-IB classes), then Pre-Calc/Trig (IB 1) and Calculus (IB 2); I took the AP tests because Standard Level IB math means nothing to anyone.

 

Really look into the specific school's program.  The higher level classes were definitely better than the standards.

[eternalsummer]

I found the higher level classes worth taking; the diploma as a whole was a waste of time (a waste of a *lot* of time); taking a standard level psychology, philosophy (TOK) at 6:20 in the morning (because there was no time left in the school day), Spanish 5 when I was really quite done with Spanish as an interest, the extra work for IB math that got me no college credit and no greater understanding, a 40 page paper about something I don't even remember...

 

The good classes were great, though.  

[EndOfOrdinary]

EoO, have you run into subjects where your son seems destined to exceed your expertise? What are your plans in that scenario?

Ds just turned ten, so we are a bit behind you there, but it is fast approaching. I am very glad he is an extrovert, because that has led to quite a bit of time focused on society, normalcy, and "cool stuff" for friendships. Last year, huge amounts of time went to skateboarding, MineCraft, and working to change environmental legislation. It allowed me breathing room. If he was introverted I'd be in some serious trouble!

 

Secondly, colleges here allow entry at 14. The college is a bit less than stellar, but it is avaliable. By 16, he can attend Reed on early entry basis with a class or two each quarter.

 

Mainly the current issue is prepping for an Ivy League resume. He is fairly serious about wanting either extremely selective LAC or Ivy. I want to keep the early college/early employment option open if something changes, but it is not looking like that has the appeal it once did. Now that he has seen what is out there, he is fairly driven and goal oriented. As I gather more information, an Ivy resume looks a bit different than some other directions. It is our current focus. There needs to be a whole lot of outside verification and quite a bit of standardized material. AP heavy, volunteering heavy, outside pursuit heavy. This means that the AP's cannot be all consuming and must just be like another class. That is our current push. High school needs to look rigorous on paper, but time management of a dozen balls in the air is the really difficult part.

 

Math: He will enter PreCalculus in 9th grade having done the whole AoPS run. That leaves AP Calc in 10th and 11th and 12th for DEq's or more Analytical geometry, or whatever. My background is in math, so to causes me slim to no worries that we will find something even if it is a bit cobbled together. Definitely not a STEM kid, so whatever he wants to do is great.

 

Sciences: Middle school sciences right now are high school level. He will have finished chem, physics, biology, and earth sciences by 9th including labs. With Dh working in a public high school, we have access to lab resources many do not and can order with the science teacher anything we do not have. Currently that means a full AP run in high school starting in 8th with AP Environmental Science. There are now multiple Physics AP's to keep him occupied the whole way through.

 

History: There is always more history. AP Human Geo is looking like 8th grade. With European, US, World, and Art histories rounding out the next four years.

 

Languages: This one is starting to look sketchy. I can take him easily up to 9th in Spanish and Latin. We are going to begin Lukeion in 7th just so that he gets exposure to the format and pace. However, that leaves AP Latin by 10 grade and AP Spanish language and Literature both covered by Junior year. Honestly, I do not know if those AP's are even going to be of much difficulty if the high school foriegn language class stuff I have had access to is any indicator. We are adding Japanese in January, and hopefully going to retry Greek in a year or so. Greek has proven to be my Kryptonite so far. Lukieon might just have to take this one on. The CC offers two years of Japanese. My son's bio-dad, whom he has never had much contact with, lives in our state and speaks fluent Japanese (he works in the field) and might consider working with Ds digitally when he maxes out current offerings. Possibly AP Japanese in 12th.

 

Reed college is local-ish to us and allows high achieving kids to take Latin classes with them for credit at the cost of two hundred dollars a year if they have exhausted current offerings elsewhere. It is an attempt to keep the study of Classics alive. The college is over a hour each way, but we will more than likely resort to this Junior year.

 

English: MCT is going to run out by 9th grade. There is always more literature. It is writing that worries me. We have already hit the point I am outsourcing writing. I now help with writing, but my mother is a literacy specialist who does weekly lessons with Ds specifically working on essay skills. He is writing at a high school Junior level and though I can talk to him about it, I was not actively helping much with pin point action steps to work on. I have no idea what we are going to do here. I am a technical writer. I have been employed as such, but that is not what Ds is aiming for at all. AP English is one subject I greatly dislike the entire format of. Local college offerings are pathetic. This one makes me nervous.

 

Treading Water: Ds' non profit has us treading water right now. Much of his writing is in the form of grant proposals, business presentations, rallies, speeches, and development of his website. It has been the fall back. He is hoping by 9th grade to have mobilized a regional coalition instead of the more localized one now going on. I have no idea what that is going to look like. So far his mentorship team (5 adults in graphic design, videography, grant writing & fundraising, speach & oratory, and feild organizing) are really the masterminds here providing support. When he has questions we set up meetings. I am the personal assistant (secretary, chauffeur, and legal representative).

 

As mentioned above, pacing for us is dictated a lot by the amount of non-academic stuff my son is taking on. Actual academic bookwork for us is about four hours a day. His desire for challenge comes much more from his extroverted social workings. Those stretch him far more than the other things. For this reason, a full AP run is going to be just dandy. He could study up and start running through them earlier, but there really is no need here.

 

Everything could change by high school, but that is the current projection. Mountain of AP tests, fully running regional non-profit, and as normal as possible looking social life. Graduation at 17, or possibly 18 if he does a year of foreign exchange.

[Mike in SA]

Mainly the current issue is prepping for an Ivy League resume. He is fairly serious about wanting either extremely selective LAC or Ivy. I want to keep the early college/early employment option open if something changes, but it is not looking like that has the appeal it once did. Now that he has seen what is out there, he is fairly driven and goal oriented. As I gather more information, an Ivy resume looks a bit different than some other directions. It is our current focus. There needs to be a whole lot of outside verification and quite a bit of standardized material. AP heavy, volunteering heavy, outside pursuit heavy. This means that the AP's cannot be all consuming and must just be like another class. That is our current push. High school needs to look rigorous on paper, but time management of a dozen balls in the air is the really difficult part.

 

This is what we are thinking, as well.  DS isn't set on Ivy, but he does want the opportunity to choose.  It's why we're thinking B&M high school, by the way -- fewer courses, at a more relaxed pace, so that he can apply focus beyond academics.

 

We also see MCT running out within a year, btw, but we can supplement easily with literature and style (Image Grammar, for one).

[EndOfOrdinary]

This is what we are thinking, as well.  DS isn't set on Ivy, but he does want the opportunity to choose.  It's why we're thinking B&M high school, by the way -- fewer courses, at a more relaxed pace, so that he can apply focus beyond academics.

 

We also see MCT running out within a year, btw, but we can supplement easily with literature and style (Image Grammar, for one).

 

For us, enrolling in public school would severely limit the number of AP classes my son could take and greatly diminish his Ivy chances.  Many public schools only allow students to take 2 AP classes at a time or limit AP's to only Junior status and above.  That means that even top ranked students are graduating with 4-5 AP classes.  My son is wanting to begin AP's in 8th with 2 and then take 3 each year there after.  The reason for the limitation is to allow the largest number of kids access.  That makes sense, but it does limit a kid who is high achieving.  Secondly, many AP classes in public schools involve mammoth amounts of busy work which then limits the number a kid can take due to having to complete the class for a grade and thus needing to do all the busy work.

 

Even counting the AP's which are offered in the larger school district Dh teaches at, they have strict rules on which kids are allowed to take the classes.  Several are not even offered: Art history, Latin, Japanese, European History, two of the new Physics AP's.  You may want to check into the limitations that your public school puts on AP classes before you enroll your son.

[1053]

.

[EndOfOrdinary]

A general question: For homeschooler wanting a good resume for college entrance, presumably it is the AP exam results themselves that count, right? As long as you can learn the material to prepare for the exam, you don't need some high school to give you credit for going through their AP prep course, is that right?

We are self studying for the most part other than the foriegn languages. It is the exam, not the class. The classes can vary dramatically on quality based upon the teacher or students in the class.

 

To clarify, my son is wanting very elite schools. I would in no way be shooting for this type of high school experience if that was not his desire. The original plan involved slim to no AP classes, early graduation, and just state schools. AP classes are completely unnecessary for a desirable college resume. My kid Is looking at a top 20 as a fall back school right now and I have learned not to doubt him. I am planning ahead to try and mitigate the stress of high school. Moreover, I do not really think AP is a very great way to educate unless it has very specific goals in mind. We are using the tests only as a way to have standardized documentation of credits for our state and his college choices.

[Mike in SA]

For us, enrolling in public school would severely limit the number of AP classes my son could take and greatly diminish his Ivy chances.  Many public schools only allow students to take 2 AP classes at a time or limit AP's to only Junior status and above.  That means that even top ranked students are graduating with 4-5 AP classes.  My son is wanting to begin AP's in 8th with 2 and then take 3 each year there after.  The reason for the limitation is to allow the largest number of kids access.  That makes sense, but it does limit a kid who is high achieving.  Secondly, many AP classes in public schools involve mammoth amounts of busy work which then limits the number a kid can take due to having to complete the class for a grade and thus needing to do all the busy work.

 

Even counting the AP's which are offered in the larger school district Dh teaches at, they have strict rules on which kids are allowed to take the classes.  Several are not even offered: Art history, Latin, Japanese, European History, two of the new Physics AP's.  You may want to check into the limitations that your public school puts on AP classes before you enroll your son.

 

We have.  Only two are allowed on the transcript by end of 10th (an optional third, Human Geography, only shows as "Pre-AP Geography"), but 11th-12th can be all AP courses.  It creates a severe backload, but still allows 19 to 20 AP exams through the school.  The only limitations we see are for Economics and Government, where only one of each is offered.  Otherwise, we will have (* = will have covered the content by end of 8th):

 

*AP World History

*AP European History

*AP US History

*AP Psychology

AP Human Geography (some self-study required)

*AP US Government

AP Microeconomics

*AP Biology

*AP Chemistry

*AP Physics B (1&2 now)

AP Physics C (both tests)

*AP English Language

*AP English Literature

AP Latin

AP German

AP Calculus (both tests)

AP Statistics

*AP Computer Science

 

The school offers almost the full slate.  Through self-study, we might add a couple more to the list above -- it just depends on what he wants to do.

[Kathy in Richmond]

A general question: For homeschooler wanting a good resume for college entrance, presumably it is the AP exam results themselves that count, right? As long as you can learn the material to prepare for the exam, you don't need some high school to give you credit for going through their AP prep course, is that right?

 

Exactly. My kids self-studied APs at home for the most part (about 10 each), with the exception of a handful of PA Homeschooler classes over the years. Self study allowed them to cut the busy work & have time left over for more interesting individualized pursuits, yet still gave them a way to verify what they'd learned. Saved a lot of money, too. On the other hand, occasional outsourcing helped with providing class discussions (PA Homeschooler English is wonderful for that), teacher help for areas like computer science, & also as a source of letter of recommendation writers for college and scholarship applications.

[madteaparty]

We have no restrictions on AP. Per state law, the exam results taken earlier than high school or in high school can be used in lieu of Regents Exams and used to test out of required courses. Also per state law, only 5.5 credits can be transferred in from outside providers and put on the high school transcript.

 

Exceptional students do not go by the published rules, they work with the staff to chart their own path. My district has a published rule that no student may take two Regents math courses simultaneously. It is waived for those that ask and are qualified. The CC is more rigid, no DE at high school campus for credit until 16 or turning 16 during the semester but they will let the student take classes and earn high school credit.

AP can be taken in lieu of Regents? That's good to know, thank you (also in NY).

[8filltheheart]

We have. Only two are allowed on the transcript by end of 10th (an optional third, Human Geography, only shows as "Pre-AP Geography"), but 11th-12th can be all AP courses. It creates a severe backload, but still allows 19 to 20 AP exams through the school. The only limitations we see are for Economics and Government, where only one of each is offered. Otherwise, we will have (* = will have covered the content by end of 8th):

 

*AP World History

*AP European History

*AP US History

*AP Psychology

AP Human Geography (some self-study required)

*AP US Government

AP Microeconomics

*AP Biology

*AP Chemistry

*AP Physics B (1&2 now)

AP Physics C (both tests)

*AP English Language

*AP English Literature

AP Latin

AP German

AP Calculus (both tests)

AP Statistics

*AP Computer Science

 

The school offers almost the full slate. Through self-study, we might add a couple more to the list above -- it just depends on what he wants to do.

I am seriously perplexed by the idea that 9 APs can be completed per yr at a public high school.

 

At some pt there is also no positive gain. For example, if my Ds had taken all of the APs you have starred, 1/2 of them would not have counted toward any required coursework. Time spent on research and on upper level coursework had higher rate of return.

[Mike in SA]

I am seriously perplexed by the idea that 9 APs can be completed per yr at a public high school.

 

At some pt there is also no positive gain. For example, if my Ds had taken all of the APs you have starred, 1/2 of them would not have counted toward any required coursework. Time spent on research and on upper level coursework had higher rate of return.

 

It's 7 full time, but some of those are 1/2 year courses.  It isn't as bad as it sounds.  It's like 4 college courses per semester, roughly.

 

The starred ones were those that DS chose due to his own interests.  We really don't push, and if they apply to nothing in middle school, no biggie.

 

[EndOfOrdinary]

It's 7 full time, but some of those are 1/2 year courses. It isn't as bad as it sounds. It's like 4 college courses per semester, roughly.

 

The starred ones were those that DS chose due to his own interests. We really don't push, and if they apply to nothing in middle school, no biggie.

 

I think what 8 might be referring to is the ability to complete them while in public high school. Just the time commitment to traditional courses by having him in a seat all day long, plus the time commitment to AP in homework, then the time commitment to all the outside stuff for a college resume, starts to get rather intensely stressful. That is not to say that you cannot do it, but it is far more than just the credit hours. Most public schools require around a hour of homework each night per AP class regardless of ability. In college the amount you spend is a personal choice, but in PS it is often graded busywork which must be done for the grade. It does not matter that you have acquired the info, but more that you physically put in the time. Sort of like how one five credit & one one credit is much nicer than taking two three credit classes. The credit hours are the same, but the work load is vastly different.

 

It appears you all have it worked out, and you know your kid, I just crunched the man power hours (public school) versus the learning time hours (homeschool) and there is no way we could have juggled it.

[Dmmetler]

I would suggest not bothering to add either AP music exam. They're useless for music majors, and close to useless for non-majors, because most schools will give the same credit/placement via a departmental exam (usually with a fee for a non-major to actually get credit for the class, but it's cheap compared to a 3 credit hour class). The only reason I could see it being useful is if you want to complete an AA before finishing high school, and you're limited on the number of DE courses, but can combine both DE and AP to do so, in which case it would be a fine arts credit. But at any four year school (and most 2 year ones) there are a lot of more interesting options than AP.

[Reefgazer]

Oops!  Silly me! I meant to say "enroll him in an *online* class that is based out of state".  You know, so you wouldn't have to make that long drive each day.  :)

It would be an 5-600 mile drive each way.  :)

 

Honestly, I think we'll be fine, either way we end up going.  We're just nervous, as parents tend to be...

 

[Mike in SA]

I think what 8 might be referring to is the ability to complete them while in public high school. Just the time commitment to traditional courses by having him in a seat all day long, plus the time commitment to AP in homework, then the time commitment to all the outside stuff for a college resume, starts to get rather intensely stressful. That is not to say that you cannot do it, but it is far more than just the credit hours. Most public schools require around a hour of homework each night per AP class regardless of ability. In college the amount you spend is a personal choice, but in PS it is often graded busywork which must be done for the grade. It does not matter that you have acquired the info, but more that you physically put in the time. Sort of like how one five credit & one one credit is much nicer than taking two three credit classes. The credit hours are the same, but the work load is vastly different.

 

It appears you all have it worked out, and you know your kid, I just crunched the man power hours (public school) versus the learning time hours (homeschool) and there is no way we could have juggled it.

 

It is often the case, yes, but the local kids don't seem to think they were loaded down with unnecessary busy work.  It's pretty much the routine around here because of the 7% rule for getting into UT.  APs are worth 30% more than regular classes are toward your ranking, so there are a lot of kids taking full AP slates, plus doing volunteer work, clubs, and/or sports.

 

I do agree, though -- if the option were present to take a few per year, I would choose it in a heartbeat.

[8filltheheart]

It is often the case, yes, but the local kids don't seem to think they were loaded down with unnecessary busy work. It's pretty much the routine around here because of the 7% rule for getting into UT. APs are worth 30% more than regular classes are toward your ranking, so there are a lot of kids taking full AP slates, plus doing volunteer work, clubs, and/or sports.

 

I do agree, though -- if the option were present to take a few per year, I would choose it in a heartbeat.

I googled for the number of AP exams taken by students in the top high schools in TX. The number one school has students taking an avg of 14.3 exams with an adjusted passing rate of 10.5. (A definition of quality-adjusted exams per test-taker – the number of exams that received passing scores divided by the number of students who took and passed at least one exam. ) FWIW, this is also the top ranked high school in the country. 20 AP exams is not the norm at even it. 14.3 is which is far more realistic. And keep in mind that that is not the exam passing rate (and passing is not earning a 5).

 

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/texas/districts/dallas-independent-school-district/school-for-the-talented-and-gifted-18937/test-scores

 

Participation Rate 100%

Participant Passing Rate 98%

Exams Per Test Taker 14.3

Exam Pass Rate 72%

Quality-Adjusted Participation Rate 100%

Quality-Adjusted Exams Per Test Passer 10.5

 

The stats for the number 2 school are

 

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/texas/districts/dallas-independent-school-district/school-of-science-and-engineering-magnet-18934/test-scores

 

Participation Rate 100%

Participant Passing Rate 92%

Exams Per Test Taker 12.2

Exam Pass Rate 45%

Quality-Adjusted Participation Rate 100%

Quality-Adjusted Exams Per Test Passer 5.9

[8filltheheart]

Fwiw, I cant imagine putting that much emphasis on APs for admission to a TX public university. Kathy posted her kids took an avg of 10 exams each. They attended Stanford and MIT. I couldn't find stats for the number of APs taken by top students admitted to Princeton, Harvard, etc, but I am guessing 10-14 is pretty normal. GA Tech's last yr was an avg of 9 AP/IB/DE.

 

A National AP scholar is defined as

National AP Scholar: Granted to students in the United States who receive an average score of at least 4 on all AP Exams taken, and scores of 4 or higher on eight or more of these exams

[8filltheheart]

Likely people are taking AP Exams in middle school. l]

I agree. or spreading them out over 4 yrs, not taking all but 2 during jr and sr yrs for a total of 19-20.

[8filltheheart]

8, the kids in many schools have no other choice...it's remedial or AP/IB level.

But how many classes are they taking per yr? 9 APs per yr is not typical. That is my point. 5-6 is hugely different than 9. Taking a total of 2 between freshman and soph and then graduating with 19-20?

 

Heigh Ho, I saw you editted the post I quoted. You are not saying anything different than I am and I don't disagree with you. I disagree that it is normal anywhere for students to take an avg of 9 APs each yr their jr and sr yrs.

[8filltheheart]

To do 9 per year would require a block schedule, which we don't have. 6 is more typical as the admin won't open enough seats in AP Euro or World to accomodate those who could succeed there.

 

There is a trend to taking classes over the summer now too, as so few can find jobs. In my state, 5.5 credits can be brought in that way...and a CC class in my district is credited via seattime...a one semester class such as Calc 1 will be half a high school credit.

Again, I don't disagree. Mike posted that it is normal for the jrs and srs at his high school to take 9 APs per yr, not that many college equivalent credits. Huge numbers of students are accomplishing that (all those graduating with their AAs are most likely) and I don't doubt that at all.

[MinivanMom]

But how many classes are they taking per yr? 9 APs per yr is not typical. That is my point. 5-6 is hugely different than 9. Taking a total of 2 between freshman and soph and then graduating with 19-20?

 

Heigh Ho, I saw you editted the post I quoted. You are not saying anything different than I am and I don't disagree with you. I disagree that it is normal anywhere for students to take an avg of 9 APs each yr their jr and sr yrs.

 

This is typical for top students in our area. There are rules limiting the number of AP's that 9th and 10th graders can take, so the kids pack them in those last two years. We are on semester-block scheduling though (4 classes fall and 4 classes spring), so that is how most students are able to make it work. Individual schools also have the freedom to play with the scheduling of AP classes to raise the passing rates, so not all classes are really run on a block schedule even though they appear to on paper. For example, our zoned high school requires 11th graders who wish to take either APUSH or AP Engl Lang to register for both, and they run it as a single year-long class. Kids wanting to take Calculus do AP Calc AB in the fall semester and then BC in the spring term. It is really the same class with the same teacher all year, and then the kids take just the BC exam at the end of the year.

 

A typical schedule at my zoned high school (which is not the top school locally):

11th:

Fall:

AP Calc AB

AP Engl Lang

H Spanish III

H Physics

Spring:

AP Calc BC

AP US History

H Spanish IV

AP Chemistry

12th:

Fall:

AP Psychology

AP US Government

AP Biology

H Spanish IV

Spring:

AP Statistics

AP Engl Lit

AP Envir.Science

AP Spanish

 

This is the schedule that an "average" honor roll student would be taking. I work with the youth at our church, and kids taking this kind of schedule usually tell me they are getting ACT scores in the 26-31 range. Top students are starting the Spanish sequence in middle school and taking Calculus in 10th to bump them out of the way for dual enrollment and more AP's (like AP Econ, Eur.Hist, Physics, etc). So, yes, taking 8 AP's per year (plus dual-enrollment) and graduating with a total of 20 is definitely possible for top students here. The average student is doing more like 5-7 per year and finishing only 12.

 

I'm not recommending this approach at all though. Local parents are thrilled that their brilliant kids are finishing 12+ AP's with good gpa's, but the kids tend to tell a different story. I hear anecdotal stories of classes without textbooks where all the "reading" is done from pre-digested "notes" the teachers give them. There is a lot of prepping for the AP exams rather than going deep into the material, and kids who take their AP class in the fall report doing poorly on their test in the spring. The kids I know seem more confident of their mastery in math and science classes than English and social studies, and they report (anecdotally) higher scores on tests like Calculus and chemistry versus the easier tests like English or US history. I'm baffled by that, but I think it may have to do with the test-prep approach (versus real reading) taking place in those classes.

 

AP classes can be done really well or really poorly. You have to talk to kids who have been in class at your local high school to know what your real-life situation is.

[1053]

.

[Dmmetler]

My question is-do homeschoolers have to take a ton of AP courses, or can we reasonably do DE when our DC gets to that level? DD has probably covered most of biology to the level of an AP exam, but hasn't explicitly prepped for the test (and I suspect the free response would throw her because her writing skills are advanced for her age, but she hasn't written those types of essays under time pressure). I hate to change what we're doing for a test that, honestly, probably won't get her college credit in a class that I'm not sure it would be a good idea to place out of regardless. She's not to AP level math, although she's using an AP statistics book as a reference to self-study stat for biology, but again, I've heard a lot of things that are less than positive about AP math classes as well. I remember AP English being mostly " read and be able to regurgitate a small number of books" (I took that test with severe bronchitis on heavy drugs, and still managed a 4).

 

That and, if you're a homeschooler, where do you take said tests? It's not like the ACT, where you can just register at any open test site, unless they've changed it dramatically. Our cover school offers the PSAT for juniors, but not AP.

 

 

[8filltheheart]

My kids are much younger, so I'm just soaking all this in, and I'm fascinated by these conversations.

 

It sounds like a huge arms race. But I wonder, does it need to be, and do we need to get caught up in it.

 

ETA: Also don't these selective colleges generally say they want you to take the most rigorous courses that were available. (I.e. don't puff up your GPA with easy fluff courses.) Shouldn't this mean they won't penalize you if you went to a typical high school with normal course selection, and just did really well on whatever courses were available.

And don't forget that taking an AP course and scoring well on an AP exam are not synonymous. Spend time looking at score reports and what percentage of students score 1-3 vs 4-5. Out of curiosity I looked at Tx's stats. Only 2217 srs (2646 total across all grades) achieved National Scholar level (8 or more tests with 4s or 5s) in 2014. Taking AP courses, making an A in the class, and then not scoring well on the exam is not that uncommon.

 

But, I am not impartial. The idea of taking as many APs as possible is not a concept I see as holding real value unless you are boxed into a public school corner like Heigh Ho describes. I am all for high achievement, but I do not see APs as the golden standard, especially when homeschooling. So, I guess I'll just step away from the conversation. :)

[wapiti]

*Sigh* little of this makes sense to me.  I am amazed at the sheer numbers of APs.  I wonder how many are scoring 4s/5s and how many of these apparently large numbers of kids are also applying to selective and highly-selective schools.  I have that question backwards: how many of the kids applying to selective schools have this many (say 10) APs and are they all 4s/5s.  I know the answer is a lot.  What I wonder is how many is enough - fewer for "just" selective, more for highly-selective - but is there a realistic "cutoff."

 

I recall discussing this here a while back.  In other words, it's been months since I thought about APs beyond math and it's time to think about it again as we are choosing a high school.

 

Maybe I should make another cup of coffee and draft my parent responses for the high school application already and not waste my day going over to College Confidential.  I hope someone is amused by all my thinking-out-loud :)

[8filltheheart]

My question is-do homeschoolers have to take a ton of AP courses, or can we reasonably do DE when our DC gets to that level? DD has probably covered most of biology to the level of an AP exam, but hasn't explicitly prepped for the test (and I suspect the free response would throw her because her writing skills are advanced for her age, but she hasn't written those types of essays under time pressure). I hate to change what we're doing for a test that, honestly, probably won't get her college credit in a class that I'm not sure it would be a good idea to place out of regardless. She's not to AP level math, although she's using an AP statistics book as a reference to self-study stat for biology, but again, I've heard a lot of things that are less than positive about AP math classes as well. I remember AP English being mostly " read and be able to regurgitate a small number of books" (I took that test with severe bronchitis on heavy drugs, and still managed a 4).

 

That and, if you're a homeschooler, where do you take said tests? It's not like the ACT, where you can just register at any open test site, unless they've changed it dramatically. Our cover school offers the PSAT for juniors, but not AP.

I have got to leave this thread, but no, you don't need gobs of APs and yes, you can DE. Your dd will stand out bc who she is, her personal accomplishments, her recommenders, her passion, and her academic levels. She is not going to need pages of APs to validate who she is. Take the ones that make sense and don't worry about the ones that don't.

 

Eta: to take them, call local schools and see if they will let you. Some schools aren't as friendly as others. Some private schools might be more willing. Another concern is if is even being offered to their students. Some aren't offered anywhere locally (the physics C exams are often hard to find) and that means hiring a proctor for the exam. CB has a site with exam locations by area.

 

Also wanted to add, think about how interesting your dd's history is going to be compared to students whose lives are sterile in comparison bc they spent all their time prepping for APs and grooming their resumes instead of finding themselves and sharing their passions with their community. Your dd is already rocking that world! :)

[MBM]

My son's high school offers a 10-period schedule which, if a student were to fill it completely, would include an optional early bird (EB) period and using up a lunch period. Courses offered during EB are music, gym or science/lab (usually AP or honors). Technically a student could sit for nine AP exams in one year but at least some of them would be semester-long courses. For example, AP Economics includes two exams but the course can be done in one year.

 

Summer school is another option here that allows students to fit in AP science courses. Most of the kids who do so also participate in Sci Olympiad, so they usually have some familiarity with the material and the class is manageable. Later in spring they can take the AP exam if they want.

 

However, a maniacal schedule is not really necessary to get into the top schools, not even Harvard, MIT, etc. I can look at the statistics for our high school on Naviance and kids who were accepted into top schools almost never carry such a heavy load. Generally, top schools do want to see a student take a number of APs (or DE) if available and they want them to have good GPAs, good AP exam scores, good standardized scores and some way of showing genuine interests. Kids tend to do well in subjects they truly enjoy.

[SeaConquest]

In my experience, taking 20 APs is not a hook. Presenting research at a herpetology conference and running a successful environmental nonprofit as tweens are.

[1053]

.

[MBM]

Perhaps here's another way of looking at it. Suppose you want to (or have to) homeschool all the way from from K-12. Then you need some way of proving that your child really learned the stuff on their home made report card, and that's where AP's (and other tests) could come in.

 

For the purpose of verifying that your homeschooler has done a legitimate rigorous academic program at home, and deserves to be called "high school graduate", what is a minimal AP lineup (or equivalent) that would serve this purpose.

 

I would say it depends on your child's interests and goals. For example, a student who wants to study math in college would have a different resume than a student who wants to study music.

[Mike in SA]

This is typical for top students in our area. There are rules limiting the number of AP's that 9th and 10th graders can take, so the kids pack them in those last two years. We are on semester-block scheduling though (4 classes fall and 4 classes spring), so that is how most students are able to make it work. Individual schools also have the freedom to play with the scheduling of AP classes to raise the passing rates, so not all classes are really run on a block schedule even though they appear to on paper. For example, our zoned high school requires 11th graders who wish to take either APUSH or AP Engl Lang to register for both, and they run it as a single year-long class. Kids wanting to take Calculus do AP Calc AB in the fall semester and then BC in the spring term. It is really the same class with the same teacher all year, and then the kids take just the BC exam at the end of the year.

 

A typical schedule at my zoned high school (which is not the top school locally):

11th:

Fall:

AP Calc AB

AP Engl Lang

H Spanish III

H Physics

Spring:

AP Calc BC

AP US History

H Spanish IV

AP Chemistry

12th:

Fall:

AP Psychology

AP US Government

AP Biology

H Spanish IV

Spring:

AP Statistics

AP Engl Lit

AP Envir.Science

AP Spanish

 

This is the schedule that an "average" honor roll student would be taking. I work with the youth at our church, and kids taking this kind of schedule usually tell me they are getting ACT scores in the 26-31 range. Top students are starting the Spanish sequence in middle school and taking Calculus in 10th to bump them out of the way for dual enrollment and more AP's (like AP Econ, Eur.Hist, Physics, etc). So, yes, taking 8 AP's per year (plus dual-enrollment) and graduating with a total of 20 is definitely possible for top students here. The average student is doing more like 5-7 per year and finishing only 12.

 

I'm not recommending this approach at all though. Local parents are thrilled that their brilliant kids are finishing 12+ AP's with good gpa's, but the kids tend to tell a different story. I hear anecdotal stories of classes without textbooks where all the "reading" is done from pre-digested "notes" the teachers give them. There is a lot of prepping for the AP exams rather than going deep into the material, and kids who take their AP class in the fall report doing poorly on their test in the spring. The kids I know seem more confident of their mastery in math and science classes than English and social studies, and they report (anecdotally) higher scores on tests like Calculus and chemistry versus the easier tests like English or US history. I'm baffled by that, but I think it may have to do with the test-prep approach (versus real reading) taking place in those classes.

 

AP classes can be done really well or really poorly. You have to talk to kids who have been in class at your local high school to know what your real-life situation is.

 

This.  Our local district's policies are bizarre, but it's what they are.  Only 2 AP tests allowed before 11th, so college-bound juniors and seniors are encouraged to take as many AP courses as possible (max 7 courses per semester, and most are full year courses).

 

I can't see how the average test scores can be very high...

[regentrude]

My question is-do homeschoolers have to take a ton of AP courses, or can we reasonably do DE when our DC gets to that level?

 

My DD got admitted to a highly selective university that ranks among the top ten in the nation.

She did not have a single AP exam - but dual enrollment in physics, English and French.

[8filltheheart]

 

Perhaps here's another way of looking at it. Suppose you want to (or have to) homeschool all the way from from K-12. Then you need some way of proving that your child really learned the stuff on their home made report card, and that's where AP's (and other tests) could come in.

 

For the purpose of verifying that your homeschooler has done a legitimate rigorous academic program at home, and deserves to be called "high school graduate", what is a minimal AP lineup (or equivalent) that would serve this purpose.

 

 

I would say it depends on your child's interests and goals. For example, a student who wants to study math in college would have a different resume than a student who wants to study music.

 

There is no single answer.  MBM is right.  It really depends on the student and their goals.  It is also going to depend on what university they are aiming for, scholarships, etc.  We are committed to homeschooling through graduation, so this is our approach.

 

My oldest ds is a chemical engineer.  Total AP courses taken?  Zero.   He wanted to attend an instate public.  He DE at a local university for math and science and at a CC for English.  My oldest dd is an OTA.  Again, zero APs.  She only took 2 DE classes, English and econ.  She was admitted as a freshman at the local university where she completed all of her pre-reqs for applying to the OTA program (which required 30 hrs).

 

My youngest ds, who is currently a freshman, took only 2 AP classes and CLEPed, and DE and ended up just a few hrs short of jr status.  (He will be a jr at the end of this semester.)  His double major only has a handful of non-math/science requirements that could have been met via AP exams b/c he is in an honors college that requires university honors courses to be completed.  There is no way around those requirements if you want an honors college diploma.   His course load matched his goals.

 

My current 10th grader doesn't want to take any APs.  We are going to pursue DE for her.

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

In my experience, taking 20 APs is not a hook. Presenting research at a herpetology conference and running a successful environmental nonprofit as tweens are.

 

:iagree:

[EmilyGF]

My oldest is under 10, but my hubby is a university professor at a Top Private University, so I'm going to chime in here.

 

Hubby's frustration with his students is that they know how to take classes but that none of them have ever "done something." Getting high scores on 20 AP exams is in the category of "taking classes." He wants to have students who have made a plan and implemented it because those are the ones who thrive when it comes to working with him because research isn't "taking classes."

 

But, then again, he's never been on an undergrad admissions committee, so you can take this with a grain of salt.

[MBM]

Advice from admissions people at MIT and other universities about AP classes:

http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/on_aps_1

 

Some schools encourage students to take AP exams, even if they're unprepared, because a few of the high school rankings are based largely on the number of AP exams taken by the student body and not the actual scores.

 

[EndOfOrdinary]

My iPad ate my post, and that is probably a good thing because I was rambling, so here is the concise version.

 

First off, I do not see AP as educating at all. I rather detest them. As you can see from one of the first posts I made, I want my son to experience life and love learning, not try to cram in knowledge for a test. This is the major reason we are not entering public school for high school.

 

Secondly, that does not mean they are not a great way to work the system as a homeschooler with a kid who is not really taking a typical path. This is how I am looking at them. In our household, they are not a status symbol or some way to look all fancy. They are just a way to begin a conversation on equal footing with validation. As much as Dh's negative bias against homeschooling is frustrating, it has also given me quite a great way to look at what might be coming. The bias exists and if I can find a simple way to shore up a transcript, then I feel like that might be an important part of my job as a guidence counselor.

 

In example, dmmetler's daughter is really into biology. She is totally geeked out about it and could careless about an AP test for why she is learning. However, it doesn't look very normal and really takes some explaining. This is good if someone wants to take the time to listen. If they want to punch holes in what she learned, it becomes problematic. Taking the Biology AP in eighth grade would provide validation for what she has learned and she is then open during high school to study and enjoy whatever. Though she could just study away in high school anyway, the AP test is a standardized, societal stamp that is looked upon kindly (at least for now). It allows box checking without having to change much of what is already being done. It doesn't have to be used for credit, or for later learning, or anything other than to just show that she has learned in a way that would make sense to anyone.

 

This is how we are treating AP. It allows my son to learn his subjects to whatever depth he wants, but also to put a nice little byline that says, "yeah, I learned it so back off." It removes the arms race (good analogy!), takes off the stress from both Ds and me, and provides a form of validation for self studied unschooing.

 

We are also not loading up by stacking bajillions into one year. We are looking at three a year, whichever he decides to take. There will be some test prep, but that sort of prep is important just to learn about test taking.

[MinivanMom]

*Sigh* little of this makes sense to me.  I am amazed at the sheer numbers of APs.  I wonder how many are scoring 4s/5s and how many of these apparently large numbers of kids are also applying to selective and highly-selective schools.  I have that question backwards: how many of the kids applying to selective schools have this many (say 10) APs and are they all 4s/5s.  I know the answer is a lot.  What I wonder is how many is enough - fewer for "just" selective, more for highly-selective - but is there a realistic "cutoff."

 

I recall discussing this here a while back.  In other words, it's been months since I thought about APs beyond math and it's time to think about it again as we are choosing a high school.

 

Maybe I should make another cup of coffee and draft my parent responses for the high school application already and not waste my day going over to College Confidential.  I hope someone is amused by all my thinking-out-loud :)

 

My highly anecdotal opinion, based on living in an area where the "average" honor student is doing 10+ AP's, is that these kids are not getting into highly-selective schools based on the total number of AP's. I have seen many of these kids get into decent colleges, but most of them are not headed to the Ivies by any means.

 

The kids I see getting into highly selective colleges do have a lot of AP's (not just A's in the classes, but 5's on the exams), but they also have high SAT/ACT scores and something they're passionate about. Speaking of just kids I know in real life, the ones who have gotten into Ivies or have gotten full rides to selective schools have not done 20 AP classes. They have done a decent number of AP's, but their focus has been on an area of interest: either an academic interest, an instrument, a sport, or some genuinely passionate volunteering.

 

In fact, a public school mom I know (whose kids have chosen full rides to selective universities over Ivies) frequently lectures younger moms about not getting caught up in the AP race. Her advice is to do a few solid AP's in a variety of subjects (Calculus, maybe both English, at least one science, etc), but not to go crazy about it. I think her advice makes a lot of sense. Universities want kids with passion, and it's hard to develop passion in anything when you're carrying 8 AP classes on random topics you don't even care about. I'm sure colleges can tell when kids are padding their schedule with Human Geography and Psychology. I mean, we all know which are the "easy" AP tests, right? I think college admissions readers know too.

[MinivanMom]

Advice from admissions people at MIT and other universities about AP classes:

http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/on_aps_1

 

Some schools encourage students to take AP exams, even if they're unprepared, because a few of the high school rankings are based largely on the number of AP exams taken by the student body and not the actual scores.

 

Love this! I'm still laughing over "AP basketweaving"!

[EndOfOrdinary]

^^^^Totally what MinivanMom said (much better than I could have).^^^ They are a tool to allow a kid who has passions to show they are also academic. To get all nerdy, it just eliminates a variable.