Homeschool or high school?

[Mike in SA]

My DD got admitted to a highly selective university that ranks among the top ten in the nation.

She did not have a single AP exam - but dual enrollment in physics, English and French.

 

This is what we are thinking of if we continue to homeschool.  Honestly, I doubt any high school can really match any juco in terms of upper-level course quality.  The other thing we like is the chance to audit courses which would never be taught at a B&M, particularly in areas which would not get as much attention as an undergrad, such as history...

 

You can see why we're torn -- excel within a substandard environment as desired by the state, or excel as a student overall, even if it hurts locally and costs thousands more.

[MBM]

This is what we are thinking of if we continue to homeschool.  Honestly, I doubt any high school can really match any juco in terms of upper-level course quality.  The other thing we like is the chance to audit courses which would never be taught at a B&M, particularly in areas which would not get as much attention as an undergrad, such as history...

 

You can see why we're torn -- excel within a substandard environment as desired by the state, or excel as a student overall, even if it hurts locally and costs thousands more.

 

It's hard to know which high schools are doing a good job because the criteria used to determine their rankings paints an inadequate picture. For years my youngest's public high school was often considered one of the best in the US. We are fairly new to this area and I had my doubts initially, but in the past four years I can honestly say this school has surpassed my expectations in many ways. My two older kids went to Illinois Math and Science Academy and Northside College Prep -- both rank high -- but neither comes close to my youngest's public high school. The rankings don't include certain elements that should be considered.

[Bootsie]

 

 

But, then again, he's never been on an undergrad admissions committee, so you can take this with a grain of salt.

Isn't it interesting how those who see who is actually successful in the college classroom aren't usually consulted in the admissions process.

[kiana]

Isn't it interesting how those who see who is actually successful in the college classroom aren't usually consulted in the admissions process.

 

Yes, I know.

 

This applies especially to readmitting students on appeal ... I've seen people who completely blew off my class readmitted the next semester with a sob story and do the same thing again.

[Mike in SA]

To be fair, it isn't like APs are necessarily harmful.  If a student can get through material at a collegiate level, even if they have to repeat it, they will have a great foundation for further education.  It's the systematic, unofficial requirement that can be harmful.

 

I do not worry about ds because he has proven his ability to succeed already.  For 95% of the kids at his old school, I would worry.

[kiana]

Exactly.  If they walk in unprepared and they have a full schedule, they may be happy catching up and learning enough to score a 2. It's a lot more than they would have learned in the reg. ed. class.  I know several students that decided to take AP English, in order to learn to write. They had been unable to secure a seat in the honors program in middle school, and this was the only opportunity in the high school open to them to learn to write nonDBQ essays.  They were very happy to earn a 2, and credited the course with teaching them enough writing to succeed in college (at a 4 yr, not a CC). Their alternative was a 12th grade English course focused yet again on plot summaries and moving students to grade level in vocab.  It saved them quite a bit of money not to have to take a year of CC English to catch up. Of course, if the schools would open sufficient number of honors seats earlier, they wouldnt have to go that route.

 

 

Every time I see your posts about your local high schools I get sick to my stomach with frustration and rage.

[chiguirre]

This is what we are thinking of if we continue to homeschool.  Honestly, I doubt any high school can really match any juco in terms of upper-level course quality.  The other thing we like is the chance to audit courses which would never be taught at a B&M, particularly in areas which would not get as much attention as an undergrad, such as history...

 

You can see why we're torn -- excel within a substandard environment as desired by the state, or excel as a student overall, even if it hurts locally and costs thousands more.

Mike, you're in TX right? Another option to consider is to be "core complete" by the end of high school. The list of required courses is available on the community college sites listed by TX Common Course Number (UT and TAMU also have lists that translate their numbers to the common course numbers). Being core complete allows you to apply as a transfer to get one of the spots vacated by the 7%ers that flunked out. It's a sad, not publicly acknowledged fact that UT Austin has an exceptionally high drop out rate for a highly selective school because of the automatic admits from inadequate high schools. There are also lots of options with good merit aid out there in all those states that have the misfortune of not being Texas. :rofl:

[quark]

A little hijack...kiddo would have finished 2 semesters of calc at the CC when it's time for AP exams in spring and I'm wondering if he should try for the AP BC (he is ambivalent about it right now). His track record with calc 1 is exemplary and just keeping fingers crossed calc 2 will be the same. This might be a good time to take it in case he wants to apply to uni as a freshman at some not so distant point in the future, no? But would it also be silly to do it when he clearly plans to move on to calc 3 and diff eq etc (in same CC) within the next few semesters? I am thinking of the AP solely for the reasons mentioned here i.e. a standardized stamp saying he has cleared it (as quality of CCs are uneven across and within states). His CC is quite respected in CA though.

[8filltheheart]

A little hijack...kiddo would have finished 2 semesters of calc at the CC when it's time for AP exams in spring and I'm wondering if he should try for the AP BC (he is ambivalent about it right now). His track record with calc 1 is exemplary and just keeping fingers crossed calc 2 will be the same. This might be a good time to take it in case he wants to apply to uni as a freshman at some not so distant point in the future, no? But would it also be silly to do it when he clearly plans to move on to calc 3 and diff eq etc (in same CC) within the next few semesters? I am thinking of the AP solely for the reasons mentioned here i.e. a standardized stamp saying he has cleared it (as quality of CCs are uneven across and within states). His CC is quite respected in CA though.

Quark, I would recommend contacting the math dept at whatever schools you think he might apply to. Our experience in talking to dept deans was that it was both insightful and worthwhile. I would ask the deans if you should contact admissions as well.

[8filltheheart]

My oldest is under 10, but my hubby is a university professor at a Top Private University, so I'm going to chime in here.

 

Hubby's frustration with his students is that they know how to take classes but that none of them have ever "done something." Getting high scores on 20 AP exams is in the category of "taking classes." He wants to have students who have made a plan and implemented it because those are the ones who thrive when it comes to working with him because research isn't "taking classes."

 

But, then again, he's never been on an undergrad admissions committee, so you can take this with a grain of salt.

Your post reminds me of the rant we were the victims of last yr when we went to meet with one university's physics dept. (Not that your dh is like this at all!! Just the sentiment of the message.) The undergrad advisor literally went viral about how his classes were full of AP scholars who couldn't think their way out of a bag. He went on and on about how they thought they knew math but didn't know how to apply anything that they had supposedly learned and that they just did not know how to think, only regurgitate. It wasn't pretty. He was very adamant about his POV and then went on to rant about how the admissions dept didn't listen to them BC the only thing the were interested in was stats.

[kiana]

Your post reminds me of the rant we were the victims of last yr when we went to meet with one university's physics dept. (Not that your dh is like this at all!! Just the sentiment of the message.) The undergrad advisor literally went viral about how his classes were full of AP scholars who couldn't think their way out of a bag. He went on and on about how they thought they knew math but didn't know how to apply anything that they had supposedly learned and that they just did not know how to think, only regurgitate. It wasn't pretty. He was very adamant about his POV and then went on to rant about how the admissions dept didn't listen to them BC the only thing the were interested in was stats.

Ayup.

 

And not only that, but the ones who think they had calculus, but really had "how to use your graphing calculator to solve routine problems because algebra is too hard" are very, very resistant to going back and starting in college algebra when they place there. They show up with a rotten attitude about having to go back to "baby math" and annoyed at us for making them go back -- and they tend to not pass the class that they are prepared for and then blame us for making it "too hard

[MBM]

For those who teach at the university level, or have spouses who do, does the university not allow professors' input on selection? My youngest received invitations to meet with two heads of undergrad math departments this summer, and it seems those people do have a say as to who gets accepted and, at one of the schools, who gets scholarship money. My son was offered some decent scholarships from one. At these meetings they talked about ds's favorite areas of math, favorite proofs, what he thought he might want to do in college. He met with students doing math research and why they chose this school (one turned down MIT probably due to financial reasons). He learned a lot about exactly what he could do at these schools. Because of this, ds wound up applying to one of the schools that he would not have otherwise. Targeting students seems a good way to go.

[regentrude]

Your post reminds me of the rant we were the victims of last yr when we went to meet with one university's physics dept. (Not that your dh is like this at all!! Just the sentiment of the message.) The undergrad advisor literally went viral about how his classes were full of AP scholars who couldn't think their way out of a bag. He went on and on about how they thought they knew math but didn't know how to apply anything that they had supposedly learned and that they just did not know how to think, only regurgitate. It wasn't pretty. He was very adamant about his POV and then went on to rant about how the admissions dept didn't listen to them BC the only thing the were interested in was stats.

 

Sadly, that person was probably correct... it was just unfortunate that he directed the rant at you and your DS to whom the above did not apply.

And no, the admissions departments usually never listen to the academic departments - because the university administrations are interested in increasing enrollment. The experiences of faculty members and department chairs have no bearing in admissions decisions.

 

 

[regentrude]

For those who teach at the university level, or have spouses who do, does the university not allow professors' input on selection? My youngest received invitations to meet with two heads of undergrad math departments this summer, and it seems those people do have a say as to who gets accepted and, at one of the schools, who gets scholarship money. My son was offered some decent scholarships from one. At these meetings they talked about ds's favorite areas of math, favorite proofs, what he thought he might want to do in college. He met with students doing math research and why they chose this school (one turned down MIT probably due to financial reasons). He learned a lot about exactly what he could do at these schools. Because of this, ds wound up applying to one of the schools that he would not have otherwise. Targeting students seems a good way to go.

 

No. Academic departments have NO input on admissions decisions.

 

The department may get to see prospective students on a campus visit. Students can come visit, talk to the chair, get a tour, talk to other students - so, the department is involved in recruiting prospective students, but has no input in the actual admissions process.

 

The department does, however, award departmental scholarships to incoming majors based on test scores.

[lewelma]

All I can say is that this thread is pretty depressing!  I hope that all of us can find the best path for our individual children.

[Dmmetler]

The only exception I've seen is at conservatories and similarly specialized programs, where an audition is part of applying for admissions, and if you fail the audition, your file stops there. At universities, though, it's very frustrating because we have kids, every year, who have "music major" on their application and are accepted to the university, but fail their audition, their placement exams, and are basically completely, utterly, and totally unqualified. Usually that's when you get "but, my baby is SO qualified" phone calls and e-mails from parents who are convinced that admission to the university means that you should be able to take any class you want.

 

We are sometimes, very occasionally, able to pull strings for a really, really well qualified kid who is deficient at one part of the application, but that's about as far as it goes.

[MBM]

No. Academic departments have NO input on admissions decisions.

 

The department may get to see prospective students on a campus visit. Students can come visit, talk to the chair, get a tour, talk to other students - so, the department is involved in recruiting prospective students, but has no input in the actual admissions process.

 

The department does, however, award departmental scholarships to incoming majors based on test scores.

 

That's a shame. ETA: I'm seriously trying to imagine someone like the former Prof. Sally at UChicago not having a say if he wanted to say something about a candidate. LOL.

 

Regarding scholarships, the reason my son was contacted by the two schools this summer was to recruit and assess him. After discussing math alone with the department head at one of the schools, my husband was asked to join them and the department head said he would award two scholarships (based on his assessment) if my son attended the school. We later received a letter stating the same. It wasn't based on test scores, though.

[Bootsie]

For those who teach at the university level, or have spouses who do, does the university not allow professors' input on selection? My youngest received invitations to meet with two heads of undergrad math departments this summer, and it seems those people do have a say as to who gets accepted and, at one of the schools, who gets scholarship money. My son was offered some decent scholarships from one. At these meetings they talked about ds's favorite areas of math, favorite proofs, what he thought he might want to do in college. He met with students doing math research and why they chose this school (one turned down MIT probably due to financial reasons). He learned a lot about exactly what he could do at these schools. Because of this, ds wound up applying to one of the schools that he would not have otherwise. Targeting students seems a good way to go.

The only time I know of faculty members having input in the admissions process is when they personally know a student (perhaps from a previous class) and write a letter of recommendation.  This is different from admissions in graduate school in that graduate school admissions is to a particular program.  Undergraduate admission is usually to the college or university--not to a particular program.  One issue is that many undergraduates change majors.    Sometimes there are specialized programs that have scholarships attached to them, but those decisions are usually separate from university admission decisions.

[Mike in SA]

Ayup.

 

And not only that, but the ones who think they had calculus, but really had "how to use your graphing calculator to solve routine problems because algebra is too hard" are very, very resistant to going back and starting in college algebra when they place there. 

 

I can't tell you how many times I've had this discussion with other parents, particularly other homeschool parents.  They don't want to believe it.  It got to the point where we have amassed a stack of math department policies to prove it.  We do not allow our kids to use calculators until they can show they've mastered the material otherwise.

[Runningmom80]

I hope I'm not the only one sitting here wondering if you all are speaking another language.  I'm all the sudden feeling extremely underqualified to be a homeschooler.  DS is newly 8, and not radically accelerated but accelerated nonetheless.  I have no idea how to navigate all of this.  Is there a High school options for dummies thread?

 

 

 

[EndOfOrdinary]

I hope I'm not the only one sitting here wondering if you all are speaking another language.  I'm all the sudden feeling extremely underqualified to be a homeschooler.  DS is newly 8, and not radically accelerated but accelerated nonetheless.  I have no idea how to navigate all of this.  Is there a High school options for dummies thread?

 

The leap between 8 and 10 was my major push out the door toward checking out all the homeschooling highschool resources from the library.  I don't really know what happened in Ds' brain, but it was like he decided for himself what direction he was going to go and was ALL IN.  I had to become all in as well.  This school year he has slowed down a bit more.  Phew! And is now really cherishing the whole idea of great books, snuggling up, and flowing with his subjects.  He isn't pushing.  See what happens with your kiddo.  They all go through bursts and stays.  Lingering in the library over books that seemed ridiculous to be reading did help a bit. I still feel a bit Dummy-like in many ways compared to the wealth of info many others here have.

[quark]

Quark, I would recommend contacting the math dept at whatever schools you think he might apply to. Our experience in talking to dept deans was that it was both insightful and worthwhile. I would ask the deans if you should contact admissions as well.

Thank you 8. Will do that. It would still be helpful to me to hear what you guys think just because...I pretty much adore you all. :001_wub:

 

I hope I'm not the only one sitting here wondering if you all are speaking another language.  I'm all the sudden feeling extremely underqualified to be a homeschooler.  DS is newly 8, and not radically accelerated but accelerated nonetheless.  I have no idea how to navigate all of this.  Is there a High school options for dummies thread?

Please don't worry about this too much. When you need it it will come. You will start by asking questions that seem silly to you but might actually be super helpful to others down the road. Then you'll slowly build on your repertoire of questions and as you receive answers and process them, you'll be an old hand at it not long after. :) It will be okay. :grouphug:

[Dmmetler]

Does it help to know that I'm pretty confused, too? DD is pretty confident in what she wants to do long-term (PhD in Herpetology, focusing on snake ethology and ecology, doing international field work), but as far as what to do between now and doctorate...that's pretty hazy, except that she's insistent that she's not leaving home if her snakes can't come too.

[Laura Corin]

No. Academic departments have NO input on admissions decisions.

 

The department may get to see prospective students on a campus visit. Students can come visit, talk to the chair, get a tour, talk to other students - so, the department is involved in recruiting prospective students, but has no input in the actual admissions process.

 

The department does, however, award departmental scholarships to incoming majors based on test scores.

 

Wow!.  I had no idea.  So you have no input over whether an individual student will be capable of succeeding in your classes?  Do you get many completely unsuitable students?  How do they feel?

 

L

[SarahW]

Does it help to know that I'm pretty confused, too? DD is pretty confident in what she wants to do long-term (PhD in Herpetology, focusing on snake ethology and ecology, doing international field work), but as far as what to do between now and doctorate...that's pretty hazy, except that she's insistent that she's not leaving home if her snakes can't come too.

 

I once read a tip in a "how to do college cheaper" book that it made more financial sense to buy the college student a condo rather than pay r&b fees. That obviously won't work for everyone everywhere ( :smash: ), but...then she'd be able to attend college outside your local offerings and be able to take her pets.

 

This information probably does not bring you more clarity. Sorry. :tongue_smilie:

[regentrude]

Wow!.  I had no idea.  So you have no input over whether an individual student will be capable of succeeding in your classes?  Do you get many completely unsuitable students?  How do they feel?

 

The vast majority of students in my classes are NOT physics majors. Every engineering major has to take introductory physics, so even if we had input on the admission of our majors, that would not affect 95 percent of the students taking physics courses.

 

I do not believe that the application generates sufficient information to see who is going to succeed, since the main factors that contribute to student success can not be neatly measured by test scores. Many of our students come from small rural high schools that lack advanced course offerings, so even looking at the coursework on the transcript will be misleading.

I almost never encounter students who do not have the intellectual capability to succeed in introductory physics. Those are extremely rare. Almost every student who fails the course does so because he is not spending enough time on task - something that would not be apparent from any application material.

 

As a department, we occasionally see students who are not suitable to be successful in the physics major. That becomes apparent eventually, and those students tend to switch. It is very rare for a student to insist on staying and failing the courses repeatedly.

 

But then, keep in mind that as a public university, we are required to go to great lengths to hand hold and prop up struggling students. The amount of help we offer is staggering - for my course alone, we offer 10 hours of faculty staffed help sessions and 10 hours of tutoring every.single.week. A highly selective school that only admits students who have demonstrated that they are highly motivated high achievers may not need to offer such a support infrastructure.

[Dmmetler]

In my department, we don't admit people to the major unless they've passed an audition and theory placement exams, so usually what happens is that the would be "music majors" or "music education majors" spend a year doing courses that only give credit for non-majors (music reading, non-major private lessons taught by graduate students, the lower tier ensembles that are open to the entire school) and then usually end up changing their major to something else. These are usually kids who went through PS with band or choir being their primary extracurricular, did OK at a mediocre high school program, but didn't try out for (or, if they did, didn't get into) honors bands or regional/district/state bands, didn't take private lessons, and often, still have a cheap student grade instrument (or, in some cases, don't actually own an instrument of their own). Unfortunately, music is one field where it's very, very difficult to be ready to succeed at a university level program without taking outside coursework beyond what is available at the typical high school, and money really does make a difference, especially for instrumentalists. I've known some lower income students who have done it-my local area has a program that collects donated instruments, fixes them up, and gives them to students who band and orchestra directors recommend, I've known students who barter for private lessons, the university prep department does have scholarships available to qualified pre-college students, as do most summer programs and camps, etc, but those kids are few compared to the middle and upper class kids who started Kindermusik at 6 months, Suzuki at age 3, youth symphony at age 9, and have been going to summer music camp at Interlochen or Blue Lake since they were 12.

 

 

[kiana]

Wow!.  I had no idea.  So you have no input over whether an individual student will be capable of succeeding in your classes?  Do you get many completely unsuitable students?  How do they feel?

 

L

 

We do get some students who are completely unsuited to the major. They have qualified for general admission, but place into the lowest developmental math class we offer, or in some cases have passed developmental math/college algebra with a C somewhere else, a long time back. Why they want to major in math when they have other subjects where they got much better grades is beyond me. 

 

I would cautiously suggest that one reason completely unsuitable students tend not to end up in engineering physics is because they have already failed to pass the mathematics placement test and are still re-taking pre-calculus or lower. At my graduate school (which had an engineering school) it was not uncommon for students who thought they were engineering majors to be taking college algebra or pre-calculus for the third time, and we were not allowed to suggest that the major might be a sub-optimal choice for them. Some of these students were working quite hard and just couldn't understand pre-calculus. 

[regentrude]

I would cautiously suggest that one reason completely unsuitable students tend not to end up in engineering physics is because they have already failed to pass the mathematics placement test and are still re-taking pre-calculus or lower. At my graduate school (which had an engineering school) it was not uncommon for students who thought they were engineering majors to be taking college algebra or pre-calculus for the third time, and we were not allowed to suggest that the major might be a sub-optimal choice for them. Some of these students were working quite hard and just couldn't understand pre-calculus.

 

Oh yes, that, too. Some students need several tries to pass college algebra (which is a remedial course and does not give credit towards their major)... that does not bode well...

 

[8filltheheart]

All I can say is that this thread is pretty depressing!  I hope that all of us can find the best path for our individual children.

 

I don't think it is depressing if you have the ability to homeschool through high school.   I actually think the opportunities for homeschooling in high school are awesome.   Dd and spent 8 hrs in the car today, just the 2 of us.   We had some deep conversations about how she wants to proceed with the rest of high school.   How many kids get to really make that decision?   She has no pressure from us one way or the other.  She is her own driving force.   I simply provide pros and cons for different options and their possible outcomes.

 

I hope I'm not the only one sitting here wondering if you all are speaking another language.  I'm all the sudden feeling extremely underqualified to be a homeschooler.  DS is newly 8, and not radically accelerated but accelerated nonetheless.  I have no idea how to navigate all of this.  Is there a High school options for dummies thread?

 

One step at a time.  One stage at a time.  Just like when they were newborns, toddlers, preschoolers, and primary age.   You  just keep plugging ahead with them.   Parenthood is overwhelming if you think you have to know how to parent a teenager when you walk through the door wiht your first newborn.   Just as unrealistic as that is, so is knowing how to navigate high school and college admissions when they are only 8.   It really isn't that scary when you are walking alongside them the whole way.  :)  FWIW, you can also make a lot of mistakes along the way and still have things turn out ok.  (Good thing or everyone's oldest child would be really doomed!!)   Also, who knows what higher ed is actually going to look like in the next several yrs??   Things are radically different now than when my oldest was in 8th grade.  They are even different than when our 20 yr old was in 8th grade.

 

Thank you 8. Will do that. It would still be helpful to me to hear what you guys think just because...I pretty much adore you all. :001_wub:

 

Please don't worry about this too much. When you need it it will come. You will start by asking questions that seem silly to you but might actually be super helpful to others down the road. Then you'll slowly build on your repertoire of questions and as you receive answers and process them, you'll be an old hand at it not long after. :) It will be okay. :grouphug:

 

I didn't give you an opinion, b/c I am just not sure.   I know that our CCs are not very high quality.  I also know our regional universities are not highly rated.  Regardless of tier, GA Tech was willing to accept all of ds's math and physics credits.   I wasn't really expecting that b/c of how many times I had read about how picky universities can be about transfer in-major credits.  (GA Tech's physics dept is ranked 29th.)  It is hard to say what the reaction will be.  I am glad ds went the DE route for physics vs. AP.   He had great class and lab experiences and spent time talking to his professors outside of class.  They gave him books to read that they thought would interest him and they were all great mentors for him.  He took cal through AoPS and then took the BC exam.   He didn't start DE for math until multivariable.

[Mike in SA]

I hope I'm not the only one sitting here wondering if you all are speaking another language.  I'm all the sudden feeling extremely underqualified to be a homeschooler.  DS is newly 8, and not radically accelerated but accelerated nonetheless.  I have no idea how to navigate all of this.  Is there a High school options for dummies thread?

 

Don't fret it until it hits.  ;)

 

Seriously, this issue is most pronounced with the radically self-accelerated bunch.  There are a ton of options to keep things under control...

 

[FairProspects]

 

One step at a time.  One stage at a time.  Just like when they were newborns, toddlers, preschoolers, and primary age.   You  just keep plugging ahead with them.   Parenthood is overwhelming if you think you have to know how to parent a teenager when you walk through the door wiht your first newborn.   Just as unrealistic as that is, so is knowing how to navigate high school and college admissions when they are only 8.   It really isn't that scary when you are walking alongside them the whole way.   :)  FWIW, you can also make a lot of mistakes along the way and still have things turn out ok.  (Good thing or everyone's oldest child would be really doomed!!)   Also, who knows what higher ed is actually going to look like in the next several yrs??   Things are radically different now than when my oldest was in 8th grade.  They are even different than when our 20 yr old was in 8th grade.

 

 

Thank goodness, because every time I think ds has a direction, he changes his mind. I've chucked every single plan I made when they were Pre-K/K age. Nothing looks the same and I have no idea what high school will look like. Interests seem to change on a whim and they may not have even found their ultimate interests yet.

[lewelma]

I don't think it is depressing if you have the ability to homeschool through high school.

 

I'm really thinking about the arms race.  I think it is sad.  Really sad. One of our friends moved to NZ from India to give his kids a better life.  He said that in India, you could be a 1 in a 1000 student, and you would still be competing with a 1000 kids for a single spot.  I see this happening just in the last 10 years in America. Education seems to be all about beating the system rather than learning.  Really, 20 APs in high school?  A hook? Studying for the SAT for years? These things did not exist when I went to a elite US university.  I just think it is depressing.

[kiana]

I'm really thinking about the arms race.  I think it is sad.  Really sad. One of our friends moved to NZ from India to give his kids a better life.  He said that in India, you could be a 1 in a 1000 student, and you would still be competing with a 1000 kids for a single spot.  I see this happening just in the last 10 years in America. Education seems to be all about beating the system rather than learning.  Really, 20 APs in high school?  A hook? Studying for the SAT for years? These things did not exist when I went to a elite US university.  I just think it is depressing.

 

I agree 100%.

[Bootsie]

Wow!.  I had no idea.  So you have no input over whether an individual student will be capable of succeeding in your classes?  Do you get many completely unsuitable students?  How do they feel?

 

 

At the undergraduate level, faculty usually do not have much input at the individual student level.  As a department we can set pre-requisite requirements for specific courses and for declaring a major, but those requirements are generally broad and not individualized.  For example, to take my finance class, students must have completed college algebra, calculus for business majors, two accounting courses, and an economics course.  We can state a GPA requirement or a minimum grade in those courses, but the state is trying to eliminate those because those requirements slow people down and lower graduation rates.  The board of regents sees a D- as passing and, thus, high enough to continue on.  When we are required to accept transfers from community colleges which we have no control over the quality of the courses, the problem is exacerbated.

 

I had a student who was failing my course come to my office last semester.  He knew that he must pass the course to take intermediate finance the next semester.  He was more concerned about needing to take intermediate finance the next semester than passing the introductory finance course that semester.  He needed to take the intermediate course the next semester to stay on track because he was a FINANCE major.  I started gently suggesting that he should consider a different major because he was one of the lowest performing students in my class.  He told me that he didn't like the class because he found working with numbers boring and he had hated accounting, but he really wanted to be a finance major.    

[quark]

Thank goodness, because every time I think ds has a direction, he changes his mind. I've chucked every single plan I made when they were Pre-K/K age. Nothing looks the same and I have no idea what high school will look like. Interests seem to change on a whim and they may not have even found their ultimate interests yet.

 

A bit of a sidetrack from the OP. Sorry.

 

Bolded is perhaps even to be hoped for because it means they are exploring and discovering new things. They HAVE interests! :) And many, many, if not all, interests are somehow connected!

 

When we started homeschooling it seemed like kiddo was interested in everything. He was so young and open to everything. A clean slate. I struggled because it didn't seem like he would latch on to one single thing for me to focus on and his appetite for knowledge was voracious. It would have been so much easier for me to specialize. I suspect he gravitated towards math mostly because it came easily, and his Dad and I played math games with him from very young and as the primary homeschooling parent I was super motivated to make math fun for him, and as unlike my own experiences with math as possible. We did science verbally most of the time through discussions mainly because of kiddo's fine motor issues and his Dad being very into science it is like breathing for the two of them to talk about natural and unnatural phenomenon almost every time they are together. And we read a lot. In the end, because I just couldn't do everything he wanted to the high standards I held for myself, we only really fully homeschooled math and then reading by collecting tons of reading ideas, with the few splashes of "pure" history and science that we managed through discussions, videos, audiobooks, kitchen table projects/ experiments and field trips. Then we launched into online classes for a while and although he was learning plenty it also felt stifling because almost all interactions were mainly online with just one instructor. The online classes did help by smoothing him into good study/ scheduling habits but it felt odd to me after a while for him to be so cooped up just studying from a laptop screen and someone's voice and a few books.

 

At the CC, his focus (just for now) is math and physics because he knows how helpful these subjects will be towards almost anything else he might want to do (it really doesn't seem like he is going to become a historian). I still don't know for sure that he is going to be a mathematician like he used to say he wants to be because I notice him changing a little every year. At the CC, he is happy that he can approach or email instructors and contribute in class discussions because there is that part of him that really enjoys the group environment and mingling with people of all ages vs just homeschooled playmates much more frequently. Even when time is tight, I doggedly make sure that he is reading good books or watching/ listening to resources across subjects outside of his classes just to make sure I am not over-specializing him too early (and sometimes I worry he is already too specialized). Every 20 minute one way drive to the CC is used for audiobooks across topics (he still has as many wide interests as he used to when younger).

 

Just around the time that he started CC we noticed a sudden spike in his music interest and him being more involved with his band mates, playing music for large audiences, jamming, improvising, composing...it is very new for me to see (and very touching and humbling too because music was one of MY things). Being stretched for time and money, I didn't really focus so much of our energies on music when he was younger other than the weekly lesson and a bit of nagging to practice 4x a week. He can really see the fruits of all that practice now. He is in no way a music prodigy but he is growing so much. I can't believe that he is getting this wonderful musical experience for just $46 per semester (the current per unit rate in CA CCs for matriculated students). It's a one unit course. He devotes at least 10 hours a week to practice without me asking him to. HE makes time for it! Is learning to find time for it on busy days. Learning to prioritize and manage his schedule on his own! Freaking awesome deal. :)

 

The interests and skills come as we expose them and methinks and hopes too that he will continue to find many "ultimate" interests before he applies to uni and also further into adulthood.

 

Just keep doing what you are doing and expose them and encourage them and support them the best you can. The alphabet soup of hoops you have to jump through will fall into place when you have a need for it to do so. Of course, it will require effort from you as their guidance counselor and there will be some tedious paperwork and maybe phone calls to make or emails to write for clarification and hours spent on the web searching, but it won't feel like Greek or some other difficult-to-master language for too long.

 

[quark]

I'm really thinking about the arms race.  I think it is sad.  Really sad. One of our friends moved to NZ from India to give his kids a better life.  He said that in India, you could be a 1 in a 1000 student, and you would still be competing with a 1000 kids for a single spot.  I see this happening just in the last 10 years in America. Education seems to be all about beating the system rather than learning.  Really, 20 APs in high school?  A hook? Studying for the SAT for years? These things did not exist when I went to a elite US university.  I just think it is depressing.

 

It is. I agree 100% too. But you know, as individual families, we can turn it around, put our feet down and decide whether we want to do this too. I hope I am not being too idealistic since I haven't navigated the whole application process yet...but I can't imagine feeding my child to this frenzy. The more I think about it the more obviously tempting the transfer route from CC to state uni is becoming. He will be able to avoid the craziness, might not qualify for as many scholarships though but it should still cost less in the long run. If we play the cards right, there won't be a lot of debt. Doesn't have to face the craziness of the partying lifestyle for 2 additional years. Then he can earn/work and pay for his post grad studies at his dream university on the other side of the US. Rose-colored glasses eh? But really, it is depressing to see the pursuit of knowledge turn into this circus.

[8filltheheart]

I'm really thinking about the arms race. I think it is sad. Really sad. One of our friends moved to NZ from India to give his kids a better life. He said that in India, you could be a 1 in a 1000 student, and you would still be competing with a 1000 kids for a single spot. I see this happening just in the last 10 years in America. Education seems to be all about beating the system rather than learning. Really, 20 APs in high school? A hook? Studying for the SAT for years? These things did not exist when I went to a elite US university. I just think it is depressing.

I agree completely with you about that scenario. But that is why i stated it is not depressing if you are homeschooling. I don't think you have to play the game and participate in the insanity. That has really been my point in participating in this thread. :)

 

But, I am also not caught up in elite schools, either. Nor am I willing to sacrifice our autonomy in designing a high school curriculum that meets my kids' needs. The idea of lists of AP exams is very unappealing to me bc that is contrary to how we function. It hasn't negatively impacted my kids since they have done very well for themselves. My oldest ds and oldest dd have great jobs. Youngest ds loves his honors programs at his public U. We have zero debt for 3 kids worth of degrees (and we saved no money for college, so this is not a minor accomplishment.). My 10th grade dd is thriving in her personal concentration. I have no idea where dd will go to school, but she has decided she wants to move forward her way and let the chips fall where they may.

[JennW in SoCal]

Many voices of reason here.  It really does all work out, and there are those of us who refused to be part of the arms race, who homeschooled high school with some DE credits and whose kids found places in good programs at good schools.  

 

This is totally off topic, but I think you all in particular will understand how much this conversation warmed my homeschool mother's heart:

 

 

mom:  Hard to believe that at this time next year you'll be a senior and sending out grad school applications.

 

ds:  Yeah.  I just feel like there is so much more I'd like to learn.  I feel like I haven't yet taken full advantage of a liberal arts education.

 

 

Ahhh.  My ds who loves learning for the sake of learning!  THAT is why I homeschooled, all the way through high school.  His one and only standardized exam was the ACT, and he is at an excellent LAC, is doing research, presenting at professional conferences, is a TA and a tutor at the student learning center.  He started DE at the age of 15, started the LAC at 17.  

[lewelma]

It is. I agree 100% too. But you know, as individual families, we can turn it around, put our feet down and decide whether we want to do this too. I hope I am not being too idealistic since I haven't navigated the whole application process yet...but I can't imagine feeding my child to this frenzy.

 

 

I'm with you there.  I am not willing to sacrifice 3-4 years of his life to get him into the best university possible.  

 

I agree completely with you about that scenario. But that is why i stated it is not depressing if you are homeschooling. I don't think you have to play the game and participate in the insanity.

 

It is so good to hear this from a veteran homeschool mom!  I find it very difficult to pave my own way, but I am following your lead and creating courses for my son that follow *his* interests.

[8filltheheart]

Just read this an thought I would share in case some kids might be graduating with a lot of credits that don't actually count toward their degree:

 

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1708265-reaching-credit-hour-ceiling-due-to-high-school-credits.html#latest

[madteaparty]

nm.

[Mike in SA]

Just read this an thought I would share in case some kids might be graduating with a lot of credits that don't actually count toward their degree:

 

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1708265-reaching-credit-hour-ceiling-due-to-high-school-credits.html#latest

 

Depending on the school, AP credits can help, or be completely useless.  Many top schools accept very few, and some none at all.  We really don't look at it as a race for APs, but it's because our kids actually want to learn at the collegiate level.  The ability to pass an AP exam is just a freebie.  We expect nothing of it other than quality material that we would study anyway.

[8filltheheart]

Depending on the school, AP credits can help, or be completely useless. Many top schools accept very few, and some none at all. We really don't look at it as a race for APs, but it's because our kids actually want to learn at the collegiate level. The ability to pass an AP exam is just a freebie. We expect nothing of it other than quality material that we would study anyway.

??? I'm not sure what you took from that thread, but the point is that FA cuts off at 180 credit hours. If a student transfers in a lot of hours that are not used toward his/her degree and then changes majors or has trouble with some classes and has to repeat courses, etc, there is the potential to run out of FA. I didn't know that. For some kids, that might mean an inability to complete their degree. That is information that some might need to consider. It doesn't even apply to your situation since someone posted in that thread that in TX credits from high school don't count.

[MBM]

None of the nonsense is necessary or even a guarantee that students will be accepted to their favorite university. Finding a hook is a lot less important than figuring out who you really are and what you might truly enjoy doing. There are 100s of universities in the US and probably 100-200 of them are considered quite good.

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

It is. I agree 100% too. But you know, as individual families, we can turn it around, put our feet down and decide whether we want to do this too. I hope I am not being too idealistic since I haven't navigated the whole application process yet...but I can't imagine feeding my child to this frenzy. The more I think about it the more obviously tempting the transfer route from CC to state uni is becoming. He will be able to avoid the craziness, might not qualify for as many scholarships though but it should still cost less in the long run. If we play the cards right, there won't be a lot of debt. Doesn't have to face the craziness of the partying lifestyle for 2 additional years. Then he can earn/work and pay for his post grad studies at his dream university on the other side of the US. Rose-colored glasses eh? But really, it is depressing to see the pursuit of knowledge turn into this circus.

 

Not rose-colored glasses!  At least from my anecdotal n=1.  I went to a state school and lived at home for undergrad. This gave me a chance to be a big fish in a small pond, I got a ton of research opportunities, and scholarships, and graduated with zero debt and money in the bank. And due to the amazing research opportunities I participated in as an undergrad (at a Cal State, there are no PhD students to suck up all the good RA positions!) I got accepted to MIT for a PhD.  I honestly do think that for a kid on a path that involves a PhD, this can be a totally valid path.  It matters so much more where your PhD is from than where you did your undergrad! And a school like MIT literally didn't care where I had done my work - they were interested in the fact that I had done interesting research as an undergrad.  And, full circle, that was an opportunity I had specifically because I was at a Cal State - a lower tier uni where there were no grad students to compete with.

 

I have to remind myself this, and just put my fingers in my ears and la-la-la at the rat race/feeding frenzy.  Neither of my kids are showing a temperment to compete in that kind of environment, and I'm fine with that.   There are many paths to an excellent destination.  And the excellence of the destination is really, truly determined by goodness of fit, rather than prestige.  IMHO.

[Bootsie]

??? I'm not sure what you took from that thread, but the point is that FA cuts off at 180 credit hours. If a student transfers in a lot of hours that are not used toward his/her degree and then changes majors or has trouble with some classes and has to repeat courses, etc, there is the potential to run out of FA. I didn't know that. For some kids, that might mean an inability to complete their degree. That is information that some might need to consider. It doesn't even apply to your situation since someone posted in that thread that in TX credits from high school don't count.

The 150 hour rule in Texas and the 180 financial aid limit are two separate issues.

 

In Texas, a student exceeding 150 hours (for most programs)  who has not attained a bachelor's degree must pay out-of-state tuition for further undergraduate coursework.  Dual credit and AP credits do not count toward this hurdle.  

 

The 180 credit hour rule refers to the federal aid limit that kicks in when a student attempts 150% of the required undergraduate hours for a degree.  This is part of the "Satisfactory Academic Progress" requirement to be eligible for federal financial aid.  Exactly what a school considers in this calculation varies from school to school.  It is my understanding that some schools (even in Texas) count AP and dual credit toward these numbers

[FairProspects]

The 150 hour rule in Texas and the 180 financial aid limit are two separate issues.

 

In Texas, a student exceeding 150 hours (for most programs)  who has not attained a bachelor's degree must pay out-of-state tuition for further undergraduate coursework.  Dual credit and AP credits do not count toward this hurdle.  

 

The 180 credit hour rule refers to the federal aid limit that kicks in when a student attempts 150% of the required undergraduate hours for a degree.  This is part of the "Satisfactory Academic Progress" requirement to be eligible for federal financial aid.  Exactly what a school considers in this calculation varies from school to school.  It is my understanding that some schools (even in Texas) count AP and dual credit toward these numbers

 

And in some schools in our state, they will force you to graduate past a certain credit limit to make space for incoming freshman. I would not have been able to complete my double degree under the current state school rules. I would have been forced by credits to graduate earlier without one of the degrees, never mind that I needed both for my teacher certification program.

[horsellian]

No. Academic departments have NO input on admissions decisions.

 

The department may get to see prospective students on a campus visit. Students can come visit, talk to the chair, get a tour, talk to other students - so, the department is involved in recruiting prospective students, but has no input in the actual admissions process.

 

That is really unbelievable - I can't see how that makes any sense at all!

 

I know that I'm talking about a different system, but that's definitely not the case everywhere in the UK.  At most universities I applied for I had an interview with academics prior to getting an offer.  Although in most cases it wasn't a very academic interview, as the course I was applying for does not require high grades for entry at most UK universities.

 

The real exception is Oxford & Cambridge, where all students are interviewed multiple times, by the people who will be teaching them one-to-one, and the academics definitely are in charge of admissions decisions - and my DH has been an interviewer at Oxford, so I've seen the process from both sides.

[kiana]

That is really unbelievable - I can't see how that makes any sense at all!

 

I know that I'm talking about a different system, but that's definitely not the case everywhere in the UK.  At most universities I applied for I had an interview with academics prior to getting an offer.  Although in most cases it wasn't a very academic interview, as the course I was applying for does not require high grades for entry at most UK universities.

 

The real exception is Oxford & Cambridge, where all students are interviewed multiple times, by the people who will be teaching them one-to-one, and the academics definitely are in charge of admissions decisions - and my DH has been an interviewer at Oxford, so I've seen the process from both sides.

 

Yes, but in the UK you're also admitted directly to a major (or occasionally to a program where you decide between two related majors at the end of the first year, e.g. mathematics/physics) and take all your coursework towards your major. Any non-major courses would be directly related to supporting your major -- e.g. chemistry and mathematics for a biology student, or scientific writing for someone in the sciences.

 

Here you're admitted to a university and are free to change your major once you get there. You don't even have to declare a major -- you can get admitted to the university as undeclared and take a generic freshman exploratory year, such as math, english, chemistry, psychology, biology.

 

Many majors do not require anything specific for admission to the major, especially at state schools without competitive admissions. Sometimes (especially for programs like nursing or engineering, which are expensive to run due to caps on laboratory facilities) admission to a program is competitive, but even so, students can enter the university declared as pre-nursing or pre-engineering majors and spend far too long attempting to satisfy prerequisites for their dream without realizing that ... even if you pass anatomy and physiology on the 5th try with a C- ... the nursing school probably doesn't want you anyway if it took you five tries.