gardenmom5 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 :grouphug: btdt. I am also now estranged from my brother. as for who is the unreasonable party - it really depends upon the cause of the estrangement. only you can answer that. have you read any books on boundaries, or narcisstic personality disorder? I was estranged from my sister for many years - and it took me years to understand the strain in our relationship wasn't so much about us, as it was the behind the scenes machinations of my NPD grandmother and my mother. we now have a greeting card relationship. as for my brother - he's always been a jerk. even my mother found him very stressful, and did things she didn't want to do, because she thought it would keep him happy and less troublesome. (um, no.) I had contact for my mother's benefit, but some things he did during her last weeks, and after she died were so outrageously over the top, he is persona non grata. I think he's NPD, just like grandmamma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I despise white elephant exchanges in general. No you are not ever obligated to buy a gift. Rather defeats the definition of a gift. I'd just tell mom that you are all too old for this and how about we just enjoy the day of good food together and leave it at that? But I'm probably not good for advice with fake people trying to perpetuate a fantasy to cover toxic relationships. It's like adding sugar to poison to make it go down easier, IMO. It might work, but I don't think it's advisable. Sounds like it's time to stay home for the holiday. Maybe go visit them later when your brother isn't there. (((Hugs))) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I haven't read all the responses. We do white elephant with DH's family but most of the gifts are something someone might actually like or want. I've gotten boxes of chocolates, a fleece blanket, cute coffee mugs, etc. I do not have the best relationship with my own brother. For single day holidays, I do generally go along with my parents request even if it is something I don't want to do at all. It's not like they're asking you to spend a week with him in a cabin or something. As my parents age, I do try and comply to pretty simple one day event requests. I think it's also fine to enunciate to your kids why something is dysfunctional and why you don't think something is ok. I also wouldn't tolerate an ounce of trouble or drama from brother. But I also would try to avoid pulling my parents into that drama. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 But honestly, I don't think it would come to that. If your potential absence was so "devastating" I'm sure they would swiftly change their minds about the parts if the gathering you object to. I had a grandmother with NPD. (she's been dead over 20 years.) if you didn't do what *she* wanted, there was heck to pay. It took me developing a backbone to be able to do what I felt was right - and not care about the consequences. and there were consequences. . . but I valued my sanity more . . . . I will also say - because I didn't give a flying fig about her threats when I didn't do what she wanted, it really deflated her sails. (re: implementing boundaries, which I figured out before ever hearing about the book.) but she was still very petty behind my back with other family members. I really think you would benefit from reading the book on boundaries - when to say yes, how to say no (I can't link on this browser), even if neither your parents or brother have a personality disorder (gaslighting to manipulate people is quite common among those who do), you would probably benefit from reading up on them. that was probably the single more important thing I have gotten out of this entire board. . . . it was that enlightening and life changing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plink Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Well I can and it doesn't mean you become the only one in the world who matters or that you are the only one grieving. :grouphug: Oh Rosie. :grouphug: Extra hugs to you as the holidays draw near. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 When I read some of your responses, I realized that you feel like a child in your parents' presence. This is something you can solve on your end. Ask yourself what you still need from them? Are you still waiting for unconditional love and approval? Does it look like it will not be forthcoming? Do you wait until they acknowledge your brother's gaslighting and abusive behavior? That may never happen either. Once you grieve the loss of what parents are supposed to be and accept the reality of what they are, you may no longer feel like a child around them but more like a well-functioning adult who is not afraid of expressing some preferences but who also can go with the flow a bit and endure something not so pleasant for a limited amount of time. The dynamics of remaining a child in your parents' house while you are actually an adult puts you in a more powerless position (in your own mind) since children don't have much say about what is going on. Realize you are no longer that child that had to live through a day with a mentally ill, unmedicated mother. It's over. You have come out of that situation. You are in charge of your own life now. Personal counseling with a skilled practitioner could be helpful as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuirkyKapers Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Didn't realize that the white elephant was just for adults. So sorry things are so rough with your family. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Re. the white elephant exchange, is it possible that your mom has come up with this because it's the best way to make sure that gifts are still exchanged but that they are fairly impersonal and desirable (because anyone can end up with any of them)? If so, I think it's actually a pretty good idea except that the limits of what a white elephant is should be defined. Is it a piece of funny junk? Is it a $20 gift store item that is a decent thing to own but not terribly special? Re. what to do this year, I agree with Harriet's suggestion about the cabin, but I also think that my advice to you last year is still a viable strategy. I strongly encourage you to read that whole thread again, and would summarize my suggestion as 'put the weight onto OTHER days than Christmas in your family, and be a gracious pretender and BRIEF, late-arriving visitor on Christmas if you go at all'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnwife Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 You are never obligated to be abused by anyone. You are not obligated to associate with abusive people. You are not obligated to associate with people who know very well you were abused but expect you to get over it and shut up about it. Being biologically related to someone does not give them special rights to abuse you. I would skip the whole event. Do what is the best for you emotionally. Since no one else seems willing to look out for your emotional health, you need to. I haven't read any replies but when topics like this pop up I'm always surprised and saddened by how many people expect the OP to just put up with the situation. I'm sorry for the loss of your other brother. That must be terrible for your whole family, especially around the holidays. I would probably offer to spend time with my parents apart from your estranged brother. I would simply say that I was not willing to spend time with him but hope they will come to dinner on such and such day, etc. Don't bother explaining our defending. This is so wonderfully and eloquently written that I had to like it and quote it. I am estranged from one of my two sisters. After the final straw in our relationship, DH and I had a long talk. And we decided that what was best for our family was to never attend a gathering with my parents and sisters. If the sister I am estranged from attends a holiday, we don't go. We made that clear to my parents and sister. Otherwise we would get pressure every time such as event was possible to just make an exception. Thankfully, my estranged sister lives across the country from the rest of us and due to her schedule doesn't often make it back for holidays. All that to say I am sorry you are in this situation. It is awful making a decision that I know hurts my parents (I know my mom would love to see all 3 of us. My dad, though he would love it too, also understands my point of view). Yet, the emotional, mental, and physical health of my husband, children, and myself needs to be our priority. Again, I am sorry for the loss of your brother and the difficult situation you are in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I would like to add that I would not want someone who is not responsible for a difficulty to be put into a difficult position by that difficulty. I never would tell a relative that if they didn't exclude my NPD family members I would not come to something. I might go or I might stay away, but I wouldn't try to influence the guest list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meadowlark Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 I'm really overwhelmed with all of your virtual hugs, kindness and concern in general. Thank you. As you can see from the myriad of responses, that this is a tricky and emotionally charged situation with ramifications no matter what I choose. I hear some of you saying to skip the event altogether, and others advising me to go with the flow for the sake of everyone involved. I'm hoping to do both. I went back and reread my thread from last year, and was reminded that you all graciously helped me put a specific plan in place for this year. One of those things was to not go along with the gift exchange. The other was to seriously shorten the time that we're there to 2-3 hours tops. Since we most definitely are going, I decided this morning to just ask my mom how she would feel about us bringing her and dad gifts, rather than doing the white elephant. I tried to be lovingly respectful and gentle with my choice of words and tone, without getting into details. Her response was an uncomfortable "ok, no white elephant" and then not many words afterwards. I'm guessing my request saddened and probably angered her. I'm trying not to read too much into it and just be grateful that she agreed. The plan is now to choose gifts for my parents from myself and the kids (and get them involved too in the shopping and wrapping) and hopefully make that our new tradition. We will stay long enough to eat and open presents and make a swift exit. My husband suggested we use the word "mistletoe" if we either of us feels the need for a quick exit (Yes, from Four Christmases). Again, thank you for your support. I feel sad for all of you too who have estranged relatives or painful family situations. It does help to know I'm not alone in this, and certainly makes me mindful of how blessed I am that I have the opportunity to turn the dysfunction around and start a new legacy with my own family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 You are never obligated to be abused by anyone. You are not obligated to associate with abusive people. You are not obligated to associate with people who know very well you were abused but expect you to get over it and shut up about it. Being biologically related to someone does not give them special rights to abuse you. this. before my grandmother died, I spent a lot of time on my knees praying to know how to have a relationship with her. . . . I also spent a lot of time reading the scriptures and praying. one day a passage leapt off the page at me. basically, the answer that came was it was not required to give her a butcher knife and lay down as a willing sacrifice on the alter of her ego. (much as she might figuratively demand it.) I worship God - not my grandmother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I've read through most but not all responses. I have a couple questions: 1. Is the white elephant exchange just for the adults or also for the children? 2. Truth in advertising: I loathe white elephant gift exchanges. However, the actual stuff you have to do to participate in one is minimal, but this is causing you a whole lot of angst. I am guessing that it's symbolic of that feeling of being disrespected, but I could be wrong. Anyway, if you can separate the annoying white elephant activity from the underlying issue that is causing so much pain, and then try to solve the pain issue (rather than the white elephant issue), it might help. That is probably clear as mud! I'm sorry that there is so much pain for you in your family situation. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammyla Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 :grouphug: I wish you peace in your decision. I understand trying to ensure your own peace of mind dealing with toxic family members, and I'm very sorry for your loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meadowlark Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 I've read through most but not all responses. I have a couple questions: 1. Is the white elephant exchange just for the adults or also for the children? 2. Truth in advertising: I loathe white elephant gift exchanges. However, the actual stuff you have to do to participate in one is minimal, but this is causing you a whole lot of angst. I am guessing that it's symbolic of that feeling of being disrespected, but I could be wrong. Anyway, if you can separate the annoying white elephant activity from the underlying issue that is causing so much pain, and then try to solve the pain issue (rather than the white elephant issue), it might help. That is probably clear as mud! I'm sorry that there is so much pain for you in your family situation. :grouphug: The white elephant would have been just for the adults (see above, not happening now) You are so right about the root of the problem. My feelings have really never been validated by my parents. My mom even admitted that she is terrified of my other brother turning his back on them because he is "the only son they have left". She is even afraid of HIM committing suicide. I did see a therapist about all of this awhile back, and her reaction to that was that my mom sees me as the "safe one", the one who is generally emotionally stable, etc. and will not leave them no matter what. Little did they know how very close I actually was. Thankfully, it didn't come to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassenach Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I would do the white elephant, simply because it would create less drama to do it than to fight it. The whole night is going to be not fun. I don't think the gift exchange is going to change that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Oh oh oh!!! I have the perfect white elephant gift for him. Some DRAMAmine. LOL oh my gosh. I so love that video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Ha. Liked it so much it double posted. I probably wouldn't actually gift that. Probably not. But that's a mighty tempting idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I keep coming back to this thread. I won't give a lot of background but I will say this. I have learned what 2 hours on one day can do to me for a month before and a week or two afterward. I cannot afford that much wasted emotional time. I have gained a new level of assertiveness with regard to all my extended family, and dh and I (sometimes just I!) confidently decide what and will not fly with us. These past few years and going forward, we only do what we really want to do. Stating it this succinctly makes it sound harsh, but that's not how it comes off. We are gracious in declining invitations; we are gracious in not opening our doors for hospitality on someone else's whim. We recognize that we are in probably the most demanding season of our married life, and whatever it takes to keep that life on an even keel, that's what we will do. Others may end up with their knickers in a bunch, but we are committed to remaining firm. It's really about preserving our nuclear family, being purposeful with our own schedules, and spending time with our kids the way we want our time together to be remembered. It's also about refusing to be held hostage on a holiday, especially when family members live in town and could easily make time for us on non-holidays just as easily. I see that you have decided to attend. Good for you and your dh that you have a firm plan for navigating the day. I recommend adding something to your schedule immediately following the appointment with your folks so you have a true reason to skedaddle and so your kids will have a different fun memory to attach to the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 The white elephant would have been just for the adults (see above, not happening now) You are so right about the root of the problem. My feelings have really never been validated by my parents. My mom even admitted that she is terrified of my other brother turning his back on them because he is "the only son they have left". She is even afraid of HIM committing suicide. I did see a therapist about all of this awhile back, and her reaction to that was that my mom sees me as the "safe one", the one who is generally emotionally stable, etc. and will not leave them no matter what. Little did they know how very close I actually was. Thankfully, it didn't come to that. Hugs. So been there. Just know, right now you're the sane one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 It sounds like you have a good plan in place. Sorry you had to get a few guilt-trippy posts here too--like you don't get enough of that in real life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kari C in SC Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Then you go and do the gift exchange as they want. My mom has lost a child (not my dad as he was taken at the same time) and she is not the same woman/mother I grew up with. I love her dearly and respect who she is now. It took a lot of work on myself and time but I now think she's pretty awesome to have come through what she did and be who she is today. I agree with this. My oldest son son was killed in a car accident 4.5 years ago. This December will be 5 years since I have seen him. Since I have hugged him. Some days I seem fine. Some days I am crazy. I will never have the brain I used to have. I don't know your family, but aside from extreme abuse, I say do a silly gift exchange. Does it really have to be hard? I would be devastated if my younger kids grew up and did not spend Christmas with me only being a mile away. I'm sorry this is difficult, but I think sometimes things are made more difficult than they really need to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meadowlark Posted November 2, 2014 Author Share Posted November 2, 2014 I agree with this. My oldest son son was killed in a car accident 4.5 years ago. This December will be 5 years since I have seen him. Since I have hugged him. Some days I seem fine. Some days I am crazy. I will never have the brain I used to have. I don't know your family, but aside from extreme abuse, I say do a silly gift exchange. Does it really have to be hard? I would be devastated if my younger kids grew up and did not spend Christmas with me only being a mile away. I'm sorry this is difficult, but I think sometimes things are made more difficult than they really need to be. I am so deeply sorry for your loss. I truly cannot imagine. I do understand your point, and often stop to ponder the age old saying of "don't sweat the small stuff". However, please understand that I simply cannot convey in type, no matter how many times I post, how painful this has been in my life. And unless you have been in my shoes, I'm not sure how you can know that the gift exchange is not really a big deal. But as I posted above, the gift exchange is actually a non-issue now. I am going, and that's going to be hard enough to get through as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia64 Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Meadow: I know the pain you're talking about. I'm estranged from my sister and my parents. The three are very difficult. When people ask I say they're "high maintenance," but that barely scratches the surface of how vile they can be. I'll be blunt: I don't think you're out of line at all. Your mom living in a "fantasy world" -- as you say -- is a huge part of the problem. I'm doubting her fantasy world is new. She's probably always been in it. I think it's incredibly generous of you (and very mature) to be inclined to give "a gift, smile and be kind, and leave." Very, very mature on your part. Also, if your mom does the "my house/my rules" thing when you're kids: fine. Whatever. But to do that to adult kids? No. Not cool. She needs to take other people's feelings into consideration. Take care, Alley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.