kiana Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 The last paragraph in this story is what concerns me. It states that parents do not have an absolute constitutional right to homeschool. That in itself should concern ALL homeschooling families. As a side note, if these children in this article were not taught to read, how did they learn to play instruments? I'm being genuine here. Well, no, it is more that they don't have an absolute constitutional right to homeschool without any sort of state regulation. They cannot say "the state cannot regulate this because I have a constitutional right to do this." The children in the article had been pulled out of school after a certain age. It is quite likely that they were already reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AimeeM Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Again, where do we draw the line? I don't know. But I don't believe it's in a case of not educating kids according to the school system standards, which the OP is doing. Where are you getting this? That the OP's problem is the standard to which the children should be educated, and aren't? No - she stated, more than once, that the problem is that they aren't being educated AT ALL... not just presumed, but admitted by the mother of the children. Not at all. Not just "not up to my standards", or "not up to public school standards", but at all. Any. Even a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Can you link some posts that reflect this? I consider teaching concepts that directly and blatantly defy actual factual knowledge to be negligent as well, but that is supported here without issue. I find that appalling to see on an education forum as well. I can think of many threads that talk about teaching things that defy factual knowledge, however I can think of none that have been supported here without issue. Can you link to one in which this has happened? In all the ones I recall people step in and say something. (Not that that's a bad thing, I'm just saying I can't recall one that went uncontested, ever.) (I had an emergency root canal and am medicated so sorry if I don't make sense.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 The children in the article had been pulled out of school after a certain age. It is quite likely that they were already reading. With nine children in the family, it is possible that not all of the children ever had attended a school in the first place. The private school attendance ceased in 2004. Some of the children may not even have been born at that time. Who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan in TX Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 What I meant by true neglect is kids who have no food in the house, haven't bathed because the plumbing doesn't work, there's garbage and roaches and rats crawling on them, the parent(s) are out getting high, partying, or whatever, and the kids are fending for themselves day and night. Strangers are in and out all day long. All night long. Etc. Does any of this sound like what the OP described? No. There are different forms of neglect. Gross physical neglect does not have to be present for children to be neglected. Abuse is not always obvious to outsiders. As far as I'm concerned, regularly leaving a 13 year old in charge of siblings while also denying that child an education is definitely neglect. Susan in TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 With nine children in the family, it is possible that not all of the children ever had attended a school in the first place. The private school attendance ceased in 2004. Some of the children may not even have been born at that time. Who knows? Totally true, but the time at which he (the brother) said that he saw them playing musical instruments was shortly after they were pulled out of school. This case has been on-going for some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sdel Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 The homeschool family in Texas neglected the education of their children. The courts found their educational approach negligent and unlawful. I didn't follow this story, but were the children removed from the family during the investigation? Do you think CPS would have been the appropriate agency to be called in? If children were routinely removed from a parent suspected of neglect, would that make a difference in your opinion? Why would CPS even be considered for an educational problem? CPS is the appropriate authority to call in TX. I also know (I'm raising a child removed for neglect) in TX, that the caseworker has to provide proof to a judge to show that the children involved will be in imminent danger of physical harm in order to get a court order granting immediate removal (this is why you don't ever let them in when they first show up and you always get a lawyer ASAP) even though they will heavily threaten you with removal unless you voluntarily place your children elsewhere. They can't get one just because someone says something happened. Even with our very OBVIOUS and BLATANT case, the CPS caseworker was afraid they weren't going to be able to get a judge to sign off on the removal and pushed us to go to court to intervene because it is easier to convince a judge to intervene when family pushes it. There really is a huge process with a lot of ins and outs. Also, by TX state law, foster care is the last resort option, they are required to try to place with family first. During a voluntary removal, a family can designate who their children are placed with as long as the people designated pass basic background checks. The problem with neglect is that one type of neglect rarely exists on its own. And, yes, it in our case removal was very much warranted. ETA: Not every CPS case, even those with ongoing investigations, result in removals. In fact quite severe cases don't always result in removals. Almost all of the processes of CPS (in TX) are technically "voluntary" until you refuse to cooperate, and then they seek court orders to force you to comply. They are SO threat heavy because they want you to comply voluntarily since, most times, they have very little actual case against you. That is not to say that CPS isn't a very scary organization to go against with quite an impressive collection of horror stories. Stefanie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitten18 Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 There are different forms of neglect. Gross physical neglect does not have to be present for children to be neglected. Abuse is not always obvious to outsiders. As far as I'm concerned, regularly leaving a 13 year old in charge of siblings while also denying that child an education is definitely neglect. Susan in TX I have been following this thread since the beginning and I totally agree with this. I'm very sad for these children. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justmeandyou Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 I was planning on talking to mom at church again tonight, but she flew out this morning (by herself) for some sort of mini-vacation today. Dad wasn't there either. Still stuck in the same place with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 By calling CPS, you may succeed in forcing one family's kids into school, but you will send the next ten like them into hiding. They won't be joining co-ops. They won't be letting their kids stay with a concerned educational specialist over a weekend. They won't be talking to friends about their homeschooling...I've seen families pick up and move to a different state when they thought CPS might be called. In the long run, you've created a culture of fear thereby eliminating avenues for assistance. You know families who have picked up and moved to another state due to fear that CPS would be called for educational neglect? From which state to which state? For all we know that is what is happening right now with the family OP knows. Maybe the trips the mom is taking are to find a new place to live with even less oversight. And maybe the move to where they are a couple of years ago was another such. Maybe they just tell people that they are meaning to educate etc. long enough to allow another move to happen. Who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sdel Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 You know families who have picked up and moved to another state due to fear that CPS would be called for educational neglect? From which state to which state? For all we know that is what is happening right now with the family OP knows. Maybe the trips the mom is taking are to find a new place to live with even less oversight. And maybe the move to where they are a couple of years ago was another such. Maybe they just tell people that they are meaning to educate etc. long enough to allow another move to happen. Who knows. Unfortunately, the idea to "go underground" or "just go elsewhere" is actually VERY common with neglect once it has been outed. I've seen that one first hand. Stefanie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sdel Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I was planning on talking to mom at church again tonight, but she flew out this morning (by herself) for some sort of mini-vacation today. Dad wasn't there either. Still stuck in the same place with them. OP, you don't have to answer publicly, but deep down, what does your gut say about this mom/family and her intentions? I'll PM you some of my story tomorrow and maybe it'll help you figure out where you are in this mess because I've been stuck in the same place for 16 months now of "we're going to do something" talk not matching action. Stefanie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Elliot Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 You know families who have picked up and moved to another state due to fear that CPS would be called for educational neglect? From which state to which state? Yes, I do know people who have moved because they thought someone was planning to call cps. No, it was not for educational neglect. Appropriate professionals (not cps) were consulted who determined there was no abuse or neglect. (edited: I removed the names of states because they're irrelevant. The choice was due to proximity and access to friends, family, and resources and had nothing to do with different state laws.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I have been following this thread since the beginning and I totally agree with this. I'm very sad for these children. :( Me also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiramisu Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I was planning on talking to mom at church again tonight, but she flew out this morning (by herself) for some sort of mini-vacation today. Dad wasn't there either. Still stuck in the same place with them. This convinces me even more that the mother is dealing with some kind of mental illness. Since you started the thread, she's gone away and left her kids how many times? Three times? In how many weeks? Of course, there could be some good reasons I don't know about behind her behind her behavior, but it's hard to understand why she would go away so often... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Elliot Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Unfortunately, the idea to "go underground" or "just go elsewhere" is actually VERY common with neglect once it has been outed. I've seen that one first hand. Stefanie Yes, it is. It's very unfortunate and I don't want to minimize that. Equally unfortunate though is the "guilty before proven innocent" mentality in many of these cases. Families sometimes move because of fear, not guilt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Yes, it is. It's very unfortunate and I don't want to minimize that. Equally unfortunate though is the "guilty before proven innocent" mentality in many of these cases. Families sometimes move because of fear, not guilt. Yep, to both. I did know one where they packed up and moved to a more liberal area. They were a same-gender couple and it was pretty obvious to those of us who knew them that the social worker had a personal vendetta and was harassing them. While I'm pretty sure they would have won in court, they just didn't feel like going through that, so when the breadwinner got a job offer elsewhere, they jumped at the chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bethben Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I had a friend who worked 40 hours a week or so for a year and "never got around to homeschooling". I asked the question about what should I do here and was told to pretty much mind my own business. I think the thing is, we all know someone who is probably not doing a great job educating their kids. Public schools do that also to be fair. But what do we do about the ones who really are not doing anything? My friend eventually joined a co-op that has mixed reviews on these forums, but for her, it's kept her accountable to continue. Her two oldest are behind a year and they know it. I think we will continue to have issues until true educational choice is available - if that will ever happen! In my town, if you don't want your kids going to the public school with crowded classrooms, you homeschool. There are no other options even if we could afford other options. With all the crazy worldview stuff being introduced in public schools now, there will be more homeschoolers and there will be those who really have no idea what they are doing or even the gumption to figure it out and ask questions. For a lot of people, little education would be better than losing their child's soul and that is what I think many people believe. This is not a problem that is going to go away. Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Elliot Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I think we will continue to have issues until true educational choice is available - if that will ever happen! In my town, if you don't want your kids going to the public school with crowded classrooms, you homeschool. There are no other options even if we could afford other options. With all the crazy worldview stuff being introduced in public schools now, there will be more homeschoolers and there will be those who really have no idea what they are doing or even the gumption to figure it out and ask questions. For a lot of people, little education would be better than losing their child's soul and that is what I think many people believe. This is not a problem that is going to go away. Yes, I think you make an excellent point. I believe having choices prevents educational neglect. My low-restriction state offers several taxpayer-funded alternatives to the regular brick-and-mortar schools. While at times I've been concerned that these will take the place of or lead to more restriction of independent homeschooling, I'm coming to realize that these options are real solutions for many families and may even reduce the need for restrictions. Some parents cannot or do not want to go it alone, and public (brick-and-mortar) school shouldn't be their only other choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Yes, I think you make an excellent point. I believe having choices prevents educational neglect. My low-restriction state offers several taxpayer-funded alternatives to the regular brick-and-mortar schools. While at times I've been concerned that these will take the place of or lead to more restriction of independent homeschooling, I'm coming to realize that these options are real solutions for many families and may even reduce the need for restrictions. Some parents cannot or do not want to go it alone, and public (brick-and-mortar) school shouldn't be their only other choice. +eleventy billion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justmeandyou Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 You know families who have picked up and moved to another state due to fear that CPS would be called for educational neglect? From which state to which state? For all we know that is what is happening right now with the family OP knows. Maybe the trips the mom is taking are to find a new place to live with even less oversight. And maybe the move to where they are a couple of years ago was another such. Maybe they just tell people that they are meaning to educate etc. long enough to allow another move to happen. Who knows. They have been here for something like 12 years, so I don't anticipate that happening. If they move, it would be to 'home', the state that they came from, which is a high regulation homeschool state, so that would not necessarily be a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Elliot Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 They have been here for something like 12 years, so I don't anticipate that happening. If they move, it would be to 'home', the state that they came from, which is a high regulation homeschool state, so that would not necessarily be a bad thing. This would be assuming that high regulation actually prevents educational neglect, and I don't think it can be assumed that it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justmeandyou Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 Yes, I think you make an excellent point. I believe having choices prevents educational neglect. My low-restriction state offers several taxpayer-funded alternatives to the regular brick-and-mortar schools. While at times I've been concerned that these will take the place of or lead to more restriction of independent homeschooling, I'm coming to realize that these options are real solutions for many families and may even reduce the need for restrictions. Some parents cannot or do not want to go it alone, and public (brick-and-mortar) school shouldn't be their only other choice. Locally, we have university model schools and many free charter schools. I have many friends/acquaintances that utilize both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justmeandyou Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 This would be assuming that high regulation actually prevents educational neglect, and I don't think it can be assumed that it does. This is true. This state requires yearly testing and submitting curriculum plans to the school district, so that might be enough to get things moving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Elliot Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 This is true. This state requires yearly testing and submitting curriculum plans to the school district, so that might be enough to get things moving. Don't count on it. I am close to several young adults who were homeschooled all the way through. The one from the highest regulation state received the worst education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 This would be assuming that high regulation actually prevents educational neglect, and I don't think it can be assumed that it does. I don't think it would prevent what I would consider mild educational neglect, but I think it would be difficult (without outright forgery) to get acceptable test results with an illiterate child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Elliot Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I don't think it would prevent what I would consider mild educational neglect, but I think it would be difficult (without outright forgery) to get acceptable test results with an illiterate child. This is probably true. I have specifically chosen to live only in low regulation states throughout my 21 years of homeschooling. (i.e. We chose our location based on homeschooling laws.) I don't know if there could be a way around a regulation like this. Does anyone from a high regulation state know this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justmeandyou Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 OP, you don't have to answer publicly, but deep down, what does your gut say about this mom/family and her intentions? I'll PM you some of my story tomorrow and maybe it'll help you figure out where you are in this mess because I've been stuck in the same place for 16 months now of "we're going to do something" talk not matching action. Stefanie This is a good question. My gut feeling is that she will continue to not do school. She has developed a strong outside of home life that is probably way more fun that doing school all day long with 4 kids. If that were me, it would be really hard to go back to being tied down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I had a friend who worked 40 hours a week or so for a year and "never got around to homeschooling". I asked the question about what should I do here and was told to pretty much mind my own business. I think the thing is, we all know someone who is probably not doing a great job educating their kids. Public schools do that also to be fair. But what do we do about the ones who really are not doing anything? My friend eventually joined a co-op that has mixed reviews on these forums, but for her, it's kept her accountable to continue. Her two oldest are behind a year and they know it. I think we will continue to have issues until true educational choice is available - if that will ever happen! In my town, if you don't want your kids going to the public school with crowded classrooms, you homeschool. There are no other options even if we could afford other options. With all the crazy worldview stuff being introduced in public schools now, there will be more homeschoolers and there will be those who really have no idea what they are doing or even the gumption to figure it out and ask questions. For a lot of people, little education would be better than losing their child's soul and that is what I think many people believe. This is not a problem that is going to go away. Beth In my mind there is a big difference between being "behind a year" and arriving at the age of thirteen with apparently almost no education. The original post in this thread concerned me because there is a child who is almost high school age who cannot read, cannot do basic math, AND who is being offered no instruction. I would not be overly concerned about a family who did not formally educate for one year, or whose children were one year behind. ETA: I think the OP is taking a reasonable approach to try to help this family get moving in a positive direction. She is NOT jumping to call CPS, she recognizes that such a move could result in more harm than good, but she also recognizes that these children are in fact being educationally neglected and is trying to address that issue. Hopefully there will be a chance to talk to dad soon, I am very curious to know his take on the whole situation. If mom won't actually move a finger to get some tutoring or other instruction going, maybe dad will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 This is a good question. My gut feeling is that she will continue to not do school. She has developed a strong outside of home life that is probably way more fun that doing school all day long with 4 kids. If that were me, it would be really hard to go back to being tied down. This thread is three weeks old. For three weeks you have been scrutinizing, analyzing, and discussing this family. You've had talks with mom, watched her go out of town and leave the family behind twice, considered talking to dad, made predictions about mom's future actions in response to people's totally random conjecture (about her being possibly illiterate, about her likely plot to keep hopscotching around the country to avoid detection)... what are you doing? If you don't mind my asking. Are you still opinion gathering from homeschoolers about whether to call local authorities on this family or are you just shooting the breeze at this point? Have you decided whether they need intervention, and if so, whether you're the one to intervene? How long do you intend to keep watching and judging them without either doing something or leaving them alone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 This thread is three weeks old. For three weeks you have been scrutinizing, analyzing, and discussing this family. You've had talks with mom, watched her go out of town and leave the family behind twice, considered talking to dad, made predictions about mom's future actions in response to people's totally random conjecture (about her being possibly illiterate, about her likely plot to keep hopscotching around the country to avoid detection)... what are you doing? If you don't mind my asking. Are you still opinion gathering from homeschoolers about whether to call local authorities on this family or are you just shooting the breeze at this point? Have you decided whether they need intervention, and if so, whether you're the one to intervene? How long do you intend to keep watching and judging them without either doing something or leaving them alone? She is trying to intervene, in a way that is respectful of the family. The problem has been ongoing for years, why is three weeks too long to try to find some workable improvements? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 With all the crazy worldview stuff being introduced in public schools now, there will be more homeschoolers and there will be those who really have no idea what they are doing or even the gumption to figure it out and ask questions. For a lot of people, little education would be better than losing their child's soul and that is what I think many people believe. This is not a problem that is going to go away. Beth Along these lines, a "sidebar" thought: Homeschooling isn't the only option. When a critical mass of people in a local community are concerned about how their faith meshes with the secular education offered in the local public schools, another option to seriously consider is to create a faith-based school. While private school isn't cheap, ideas developed through the now-decades of homeschooling experience can help make it more affordable. Having 2- or 3-day-a-week attendance options can make good use of classroom space and teacher time; assignments can be given to be completed at home on the other days. Schools can partner with local colleges to offer dual enrollment courses for high schoolers. Thoughtful use of online courses is another cost-saving approach. Requiring significant volunteer hours from parents can keep down costs for cleaning, teacher aides, and other non-teaching tasks; a buy-out option on volunteering can provide flexibility for working parents. Others who share the school's faith can be encouraged to support the school, either financially or through contributing labor as volunteers or at reduced rates with a missionary spirit. Some states will pay for transportation, secular textbooks and educational materials, and various other aspects of private school education; this can save taxpayers money in the long run compared to providing a public school education for the students. Private school can't provide as individually-tailored an education as homeschooling can, and compromises are sometimes needed to include students from a wide enough range of faiths to make the school economically viable. However, it can be a good option for families who would rather not put their children in public school, yet are unable or unwilling to homeschool effectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 She is trying to intervene, in a way that is respectful of the family. The problem has been ongoing for years, why is three weeks too long to try to find some workable improvements? At what point does this become voyeuristic and obsessive? Do you think it's wholesome for a person to camp out on evaluating a family (without their knowledge or permission) for this long, hosting conversations with strangers on the internet about their every move and trying to interpret their motivations? Is this what mandated reporters do, or do they (fairly swiftly) make their determination, do something or not, and get back to their own affairs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Elliot Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Along these lines, a "sidebar" thought: Homeschooling isn't the only option. When a critical mass of people in a local community are concerned about how their faith meshes with the secular education offered in the local public schools, another option to seriously consider is to create a faith-based school. While private school isn't cheap, ideas developed through the now-decades of homeschooling experience can help make it more affordable. Having 2- or 3-day-a-week attendance options can make good use of classroom space and teacher time; assignments can be given to be completed at home on the other days. Schools can partner with local colleges to offer dual enrollment courses for high schoolers. Thoughtful use of online courses is another cost-saving approach. Requiring significant volunteer hours from parents can keep down costs for cleaning, teacher aides, and other non-teaching tasks; a buy-out option on volunteering can provide flexibility for working parents. Others who share the school's faith can be encouraged to support the school, either financially or through contributing labor as volunteers or at reduced rates with a missionary spirit. Some states will pay for transportation, secular textbooks and educational materials, and various other aspects of private school education; this can save taxpayers money in the long run compared to providing a public school education for the students. Private school can't provide as individually-tailored an education as homeschooling can, and compromises are sometimes needed to include students from a wide enough range of faiths to make the school economically viable. However, it can be a good option for families who would rather not put their children in public school, yet are unable or unwilling to homeschool effectively. I love this. You have loads and loads of great ideas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justmeandyou Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 This thread is three weeks old. For three weeks you have been scrutinizing, analyzing, and discussing this family. You've had talks with mom, watched her go out of town and leave the family behind twice, considered talking to dad, made predictions about mom's future actions in response to people's totally random conjecture (about her being possibly illiterate, about her likely plot to keep hopscotching around the country to avoid detection)... what are you doing? If you don't mind my asking. Are you still opinion gathering from homeschoolers about whether to call local authorities on this family or are you just shooting the breeze at this point? Have you decided whether they need intervention, and if so, whether you're the one to intervene? How long do you intend to keep watching and judging them without either doing something or leaving them alone? I'd like to talk to mom and dad together. Mom has to stay home long enough for me to do that. I'll keep watching/judging (as you put it )as long as I have contact with them and they keep asking me to watch their kid(s) while their mom flies off to have fun on a beach in California. (Clarification, if dad cannot be home for dinner or overnight for some reason, he does try to have the youngest kids stay at someone's home so they are not home alone overnight) After a talk with both of them about their plans to educate their children, I'll make a decision about calling additional authorities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justmeandyou Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 At what point does this become voyeuristic and obsessive? Do you think it's wholesome for a person to camp out on evaluating a family (without their knowledge or permission) for this long, hosting conversations with strangers on the internet about their every move and trying to interpret their motivations? Is this what mandated reporters do, or do they (fairly swiftly) make their determination, do something or not, and get back to their own affairs? I am taking care of my affairs very well, thanks for being concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space station Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 At what point does this become voyeuristic and obsessive? Do you think it's wholesome for a person to camp out on evaluating a family (without their knowledge or permission) for this long, hosting conversations with strangers on the internet about their every move and trying to interpret their motivations? Is this what mandated reporters do, or do they (fairly swiftly) make their determination, do something or not, and get back to their own affairs? I have been following this thread closely the whole time. The OP has not been the one who has been voyeuristic and keeping this topic going, it is the community here (including myself in reading every post added). She is giving the family time to respond to her suggestions. She is trying to find an opportunity to talk to the husband. She is not doing nothing, but I also do not see her as camping out and obsessively analyzing their motivations. Her posts have been in response to the community here asking for updates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 OP, I don't think there is anything obsessive about noticing the condition of the children placed in your orbit and wanting what is best for them. I tend to try to be a positive influence in the lives of any children I encounter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justmeandyou Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 I have been following this thread closely the whole time. The OP has not been the one who has been voyeuristic and keeping this topic going, it is the community here (including myself in reading every post added). She is giving the family time to respond to her suggestions. She is trying to find an opportunity to talk to the husband. She is not doing nothing, but I also do not see her as camping out and obsessively analyzing their motivations. Her posts have been in response to the community here asking for updates. Thank you. Indeed, a mandatory reporter would have just turned them in to CPS and let the fall out happen. That is not my preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justmeandyou Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 OP, I don't think there is anything obsessive about noticing the condition of the children placed in your orbit and wanting what is best for them. I tend to try to be a positive influence in the lives of any children I encounter. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 The OP is not being voyeuristic or inappropriately nosy about this family. They keep asking her to watch their kids, for goodness sake. She is not just some casual acquaintance watching from afar. The parents are inserting their children into her life. Of course she would be interested and concerned if she noticed something amiss. I'm not surprised, unfortunately, but I am saddened to see people attacking the OP for her very justified concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 It seems that this is an issue on which some of us will have to agree to disagree. My understanding is that the OP has made a decision to take a certain course of action, so unless there are further requests for input, might now be a good time to conclude this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Elliot Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I don't understand the last two posts. Agree to disagree on what? Continue ad nauseum? Much (not all) of this thread has been thoughtful discussion on real issues. To name a few...What is educational neglect? Can an outsider or friend actually discern whether it's going on? What could be done practically to help prevent it? Can we rely on the government to do it? Should we rely on the government to do it? These are all interesting philosophical questions about real life concerns. It baffles me when people think this type of discourse should die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Perhaps because by now the posts are pretty close to recycling thoughts. I agree that worthwhile positions have been set forth, including views in opposition to each other. Nothing new, though, in a while. (Updates on someone's travel itinerary don't address the core issues, although someone will believe that they do.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Elliot Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I thought posts 434 and 448 (to name a few) which were just posted yesterday on the previous page contained many ideas that are particularly interesting, insightful, new, and relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Strawberry Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 It appears to me that OP has offered personal assistance, reported the family to the appropriate authorities ( the school board, I believe?) and was told that the family is within their rights (they registered, and that is all that is required). Am I missing something, or is this a done deal?If CPS intervention is necessary, it would be on the basis of lack of supervision, as dad is at work, mom is rarely home, and a 13 year old is in charge of 3 much younger siblings pretty much as a primary caregiver, correct? It doesn't seem that educational neglect is a valid claim in OP's state. Is my assessment inaccurate?Background: I'm a mandatory reporter in a low regulation state. Our laws seem to be similar. Educational neglect charges would not fly here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In2why Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 The OP is not being voyeuristic or inappropriately nosy about this family. They keep asking her to watch their kids, for goodness sake. She is not just some casual acquaintance watching from afar. The parents are inserting their children into her life. Of course she would be interested and concerned if she noticed something amiss. I'm not surprised, unfortunately, but I am saddened to see people attacking the OP for her very justified concern. I agree and the OP seems like she is just answering questions at this point. I do have one.........Why are you watching the kids so Mom can take off? It makes sense that you would see Mom leaving so often as a problem, so why are you helping her do it by making their life easier? The only thing you can really control in this situation is your actions. If you stop watching the kids then her neglect will escalate or will stop. If it escalates your choices are clearer and if it curbs then that is good too. I think part of the reaction from some people posting is that it sorta seems that this is an interesting soap opera going on next door and honestly there is a feeling of power that likely comes from the dynamic. Think about it....the OP holds the future of this family in her hand and can decide at any moment. Not deciding is a decision. There is a controlling aspect of not deciding. Most people do not have the type of time unless it is fulfilling a need for the OP as well. That need might come from a healthy place or an unhealthy place but there is something the OP is getting out of the dynamic just like every single interaction that all of us have with people everyday. Basically posters are analyzing the OP's behavior in the same way that the OP is analyzing the families. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justmeandyou Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 I agree and the OP seems like she is just answering questions at this point. I do have one.........Why are you watching the kids so Mom can take off? It makes sense that you would see Mom leaving so often as a problem, so why are you helping her do it by making their life easier? The only thing you can really control in this situation is your actions. If you stop watching the kids then her neglect will escalate or will stop. If it escalates your choices are clearer and if it curbs then that is good too. Mom goes regardless if the kids have child care or not. The 13 yo watches them for up to a week at a time. I only take in one or two when dad asks, usually if he isn't going to be home at night. Sometimes I am not able to take any of them and he'll find someone else or they just stay home alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 So the 13 year old who is very "behind" is being used as a free babysitter by her mother. Is the 13 year old also the one keeping her siblings well fed and in clean clothes? Even though it doesn't sound worthy of calling CPS, the parents seems to be taking neighbors and their oldest for granted. It's not like both parents are working to survive and the kids become latchkey kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Mom goes regardless if the kids have child care or not. The 13 yo watches them for up to a week at a time. I only take in one or two when dad asks, usually if he isn't going to be home at night. Sometimes I am not able to take any of them and he'll find someone else or they just stay home alone. I at least had always before imagined that the dad was home for dinner and at night time. I understand that in many places in the world family circumstances, death, etc. can make 14 year olds into premature heads of house. Elsewhere, like UK, overnight babysitting is not supposed to take place until the age of 16. Some of USA has rules, some not. In my state a child must be at least 10 to be left alone even in the daytime, but I do not think it is a rule that is widely enforced. But for a 13 year old to be left with supervision job of self and siblings, and all day, with no school respite, as many times as has seemed to be the case just since you started this thread, and for reasons that seem to be only the convenience of the parents so the mom can go and ... what? do things she finds more fun to do? And sometimes it now seems, also alone when the dad will not be home at night... It sounds like a sad situation. Not just educational neglect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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