Article critical of homeschooling by Christian fundamentalists

[Murphy101]

I agree.  Over the 12+ years I've been around these boards, there have been umpteen women post about struggling.  The majority of people will always say "it's okay... go easy... go light... just read aloud for now"  or other such advice.  I never did and never would do that.  To paraphrase ... "A gal's gotta know her limitations."  If you cannot homeschool, don't homeschool.  Find something else that will work for your child's needs because homeschooling is NOT about you, the parent.  It's about what the child needs and what will work best for them.  Hard times come along, for sure, but if you can't find a way to keep the commitment to education, then they need to have that education somewhere or somehow else. Homeschooling is NOT your entitlement.  It is your responsibility.

I don't say that. And it's annoying when I've heard it directed to myself. My entire "career" of home schooling has involved either being pregnant or having itty bitty ones to do it around plus various crisis at times as happens in life. If I'd taken that approach, my kids would be almost completely uneducated.

 

I do think people have to work with what they have got though. It's one thing for me to change how we schooled when I was puking sick for 5 months and another to just decide I was not going to school at all.

[HS Mom in NC]

Thanks so much for this thread - it's given me a needed kick up the butt.

 

I wanted to address something that's been mentioned a couple of times.  I think there is almost a bait and switch thing that happens.  When you begin to explore homeschooling, you're sold on the lifestyle.  

 

I think that's done out of necessity because the decision to homeschool affects most aspects of a family's lifestyle.  I think the intention is to help those get off the fence about homeschooling and focus on the benefits.  I'm surprised how in my 14 years of homeschooling the questions about it have changed.  We've gone from "What about socialization?" to "how do you get your laundry done?"  I can't believe how many questions I've answered about laundry!  I think both of those indicate that people inside and outside the homeschooling community aren't nearly as focused on academics.  I'm also surprised how many people whose kids go to public school talk primarily about socialization when they discuss education.  In America there has been a shift away from academics being the top priority in K-12 education.

 

 

You see the rosy, fun, early elementary side where school is done in a couple of hours and so much time is left for little siblings, excursions and fun.  It's rare that you see (or look for) people slogging along with middle-schoolers and up, I guess because they don't have as much time to be posting on blogs/forums!  There is very little discussion - unless you go looking for it - on what it truly takes to do this long term.  What exactly is the cost?  My oldest is in 4th now, this year has not been great.  I'm coming to terms with the fact that teaching requires x-amount of hours, and it has to be the priority if I'm going to do it to the standard I want.

 

 

I think it's a symptom of the American mindset.  Somehow (I can't explain it) we don't see ourselves living our lives in chapters/stages/seasons.   I think homeschoolers have their own version of that.  Things change. I think there's a big problem with us as whole that we don't recognize the need for change, the normalcy of change and we don't automatically assume there is change coming.  Most of us who went to ps had lighter academics and more fun educational experiences and approaches then things got more academically intense as we got older.  While there are lots of differences between homeschooling and institutional schooling, academic intensity shouldn't be different. We should still be expecting that to happen in our homeschools.

 

 

But what I frequently hear are the feel-good supportive comments.  You're doing fine, it's better than school, it's a light year/season, they're learning so many important character/relational/family/spiritual lessons, they're picking up more than you think...  Many of which might be true, It is tough to keep the momentum going year after year.  Why are we afraid of lovingly saying to each other - it is tough, are you doing the job you envisaged, are you happy with how your homeschooling is going?  If not, how can I support you?  

 

 

It's good to start with encouragement, but encouragement isn't always the same as approval and I think that's another failure of American culture. Anything that isn't obvious applause is often responded to as judgmental or critical.  It doesn't have to be that way.  When someone says things like, "My child is struggling with math." it should be socially acceptable to say things like, " That's frustrating because math is so important.  Have you tried looking into math resources for right brained children?  Have you looked into a different curriculum? Maybe some video instruction will work for you.  Have you looked into a co-op option for this?  Have you looked into private tutor options?" I'll tell you right now, there are homeschoolers who will be upset about such an "overwhelming" or "critical" response. 

 

Homeschoolers need to be self-motivated about assessing the academics in their homeschooling.  If they don't have the emotional and psychological strength to take a good hard, cold  look every year, then I think they're not good candidates for homeschooling.  I think there are also people who blindly put faith in an educational philosophy and lifestyle that may not get the job done for people in general or may not work for particular families or individual children, and they need to be scrapped for what does work.  That requires a variation on what Ruth Beechick called "Curriculum as Servant" (rather than master.) The philosophy and or lifestyle has to serve goals the parent has, the parent doesn't have to serve the philosophy or lifestyle even when it's not working.

 

I run into people who get upset when I recommend first articulating their goals with homeschooling and then evaluating educational philosophy/homeschool approaches that match them.  Then I recommend looking for curriculum last.  When I point out that's a lot more up front but saves time later because you've thought through the issues first before committing time and energy, you've established a framework for a cohesive educational approach and you have criteria for evaluating how it's going, I'm told I'm mean, overwhelming and insensitive to people who have enough on their plates making the decision at all and they don't even want to think about.  They just want to know what curriculum the most people chose for insert subject here.   They'll think about that later.  When I ask, "If you want your child to take a standardized test and to submit a transcript to a selective college, what should your child know the end of elementary school, the end of middle school and the end of high school?" I get silence.  They've never really thought about it and some of them have been homeschooling for a while. That's nicer than my instinctive response which would be something like, "Let me get this straight, you're telling me you want to provide the K-12 education that is the foundation for your child's life as an adult, but you don't want to think about in depth?" I would get slammed if I asked it out loud, so I don't but maybe I should start for the sake of the movement.

 

 

 

 

[Dicentra]

Dicentra, I see what you are saying and it is GREAT. I like it, I really do.

 

But it is the opposite is what is needed in these situations.

 

In these situations "independent learning" is what is used to describe the middle school neglect. That's what happened in my situation. When people would ask "how do you teach them?" my mother would exclaim "I don't! Man, they read so much, they read better than I do! I hardly have to do anything, they do it all on their own!" Yeah, I read, I sat in my room and mostly read Babysitters Club all day long. I could read much higher quality literature, I mean, when we first started homeschooling when I was in K, I was reading the KJV Bible out loud everyday (that was the first "curriculum" when my mother didn't know what else to do). I still feel quite comfortable with that style of language, but there was nothing done with it. No scaffolding, true, but no understanding that one is supposed to scaffold up from there, and where you can take it.

 

While after a certain age you don't need to read the directions, or read all lit out loud, so yes, it is more independent than with a 1st grader, at the same time there needs to be even more involvement. More discussion of lit, more analysis of research papers, more involved science. This can not all be independent. Goodness, teenagers are (largely) capable of carrying on a somewhat-logical discussion, why shunt that to the side and expect them to complete all their work quietly in their room? People have talked to tween/teen homeschoolers, and found that most of them found their quiet days boring and mind-numbing, and this was among homeschoolers who were not "lax" in any way.

 

Maybe my own emotions color this, but this is something I feel passionate about. 

 

 

Faith - thank you for your kind words, yes, this is rather triggering for me. I'd say more, but I have to go play with my kids. 

 

I'm so sorry this is triggering for you, Sarah. :(  I applaud your passion regarding not having your experience happen to your kids or to anyone else. I'm right there with you! :)

 

I think the key difference between the neglect that's passed of as "independent learning" and scaffolding is that scaffolding of instruction doesn't mean that you eventually end up ignoring the students. :)  My apologies if it came across that way - I think I need some scaffolded instruction in expressing myself well in writing!  When I was talking about scaffolding the instruction towards being able to "do it themselves", it was more directed at learning of skills, not a path to lead to eventually sending the kids off to do all the work by themselves.  Take literary analysis.  You would absolutely have discussions with the student but even the discussions would be scaffolded.  Instead of telling the student what they should be thinking about the piece of literature and how exactly they should word their essay to make sure it's "correct", the discussion would be more Socratic - the parent should be the guide, not the giver of answers.  The parent can help the student to brainstorm the essay but they shouldn't be rewriting sentences for the student or "correcting" the rough draft in such a way that they basically rewrite the essay.  If this is a student's first go at literary analysis, then the discussion is going to be more towards the side of "giving answers".  Slowly, the discussions move away from that towards the type of discussion that two equal, educated peers would be having about the literature in question.  Does that make sense?  In my mind, "independent" doesn't mean "in a room by myself" but it does mean that I'm not being given the answers or being led by the hand towards a final goal.  I probably should have clarified that. :)

 

I do apologize if it seemed as though I was saying we need to move towards just ignoring the kids.  Eek! :)

[Happygrl]

I wanted to address something that's been mentioned a couple of times.  I think there is almost a bait and switch thing that happens.  When you begin to explore homeschooling, you're sold on the lifestyle.  You see the rosy, fun, early elementary side where school is done in a couple of hours and so much time is left for little siblings, excursions and fun.  It's rare that you see (or look for) people slogging along with middle-schoolers and up, I guess because they don't have as much time to be posting on blogs/forums!  There is very little discussion - unless you go looking for it - on what it truly takes to do this long term.  

 

I have found this, too.  It reminds me of parenting--in the early days of nursing and cuddling sleeping babies, lots of mamas have time to post on parenting forums, meet for playdates, etc.  But, as a new mama, it was rare to encounter a mom to a child over 3, maybe 4.  And so when I got past those ages, I felt lost on how to parent school-aged children because I hadn't seen it in action or read much on forums.  

 

Now I'm there with homeschooling.  Several blogs I read in the early days have since chosen public or private school.  The mamas I've been in co-op with had either younger children or older children but didn't have an academic-focus for them.  So now I have 10yo and I'm starting to think ahead to middle school...and ACK.  I have very few ideas how to do that and even fewer strong examples.  

 

I really appreciate the encouragement in this thread in the posts to keep my focus for strong academics.  Its what I appreciate about this board.  We're starting our eighth week this year and then a break...so this came at a good time.  I need to feel refreshed and encouraged.  

[Joanne]

I took a break from this thread. It had quickly taken a dark and unkind and frankly unnecessary turn that was passive/aggressive and personal.

 

I came back and reviewed my contribution. My very first post was that the article, as posted, presented a skewed picture of homeschooling. I never once "played the professional" card and in fact spoke directly and simply and courteously about my experience as a homeschooler, on this board, and with the topics that emerge from the OP. I was pursued about a side issue, which I courteously declined, and someone else played the professional card. As that point, I was called out as if I had to provide additional data, and somehow support my opinion in a way that was academic and scholarly because I happen to be a professional in education and related fields.

 

I still don't understand why I need to mute my observations and opinion simply because it doesn't present homeschooling as across the board adequate. Or because I don't wholeheartedly endorse the homeschool culture and rhetoric that assumes academic adequacy or even superiority.

 

As I have stated, my first DECADE on this board, I argued relentlessly with posters who posted content similar to that I've posted on this topic. Ria, DailyMentalMultVitamin (sorry, but something like that), Stephanie at 1/16, and maybe Doc? would routine challenge the assertion that "most homeschoolers do fine" with their own experiential realities to the contrary. I've since lived my own experiential reality to the contrary. This board *intimidates* me, I certainly don't think I know more than others or feel my opinion is more valid. But neither will I, when backed into a verbal corner, say "it's ok" and downplay or minimize what I do bring to the table in terms of any particular discussion.

I am not chatty, but I am prolific in threads in which I know things or have experience with. So, I end up in THOSE threads (but rarely others) with a frequent voice. Those topics tend to me family, discipline, spirituality, substance abuse, education, divorce and marriage.

 

I also never understood the "public schools do a bad job" argument when it stops there. I could get behind "public schools often fail, and so it doesn't make sense for our accountability to come from that system", but not an insignificant number of persons don't add the tag of accountability but simply mention some form of public schools suck. The fact that public schools fail does not elevate homeschooling.

 

Over the years, I have answered dozens of threads posted by moms about homeschooling doubts. I have encouraged moms to find ways to make homeschooling work - and have given specific suggestions when I was able to offer them. I have not,however, in the last 5 or so years, encouraged moms to keep kids home for that sake alone.

 

There are reasons to be concerned about homeschooling from an academic standard, and also the culture and community around it.  There are reasons to celebrate, to admire, and to engage.

 

 

[Guest]

...They are free to live in a piss-poor school district, even if it means their kids are consigned to poverty for their entire lives because of it.  Parents are free to teach their kids all sorts of crazy religious crap, even if it scars them emotionally for life.  ...

 

 

 

I agreed with a lot of what you said until here.  Do you really think poor people choose this lifestyle?  Maybe I'm mistaken... I've never asked anyone who lives in a poor area if they chose it... that would probably be pretty offensive.

 

Also, are you religious?  The quoted comment is pretty offensive to me, as I am religious.  I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't calling people (who are religious) full of crazy crap.  

 

,,,

 

I am sad that that scenario is still happening today. Maybe there is something in the way hs'ing is thought of? I mean, I see lots of people/resources/articles about schooling elementary, and providing all these enrichment curriculums. And I see parents knocking themselves out going on field trips and special classes with 6 year olds, and I really wonder if all this effort it really worth it. It seems like it's okay to spend half a grand on a kindergarten curriculum, but eh, a 6th grader, just get some books out of the library and let them read them independently. I'm facetiously paraphrasing, but that really does seem to be how things go down sometimes. And I'm just trying to figure out why. Is it burn out from touring too many bread factories with little kids who will hardly remember being there? Is it a matter of the subculture valuing "need!moar!babies!!" over dealing with why?-asking teens? It is just simple anti-intellectualism? Is it maybe because middle/high school was emotionally scarring for the parents, and algebra is a trigger? Is it some of all of the above?

 

I don't know if any of that makes sense. But, FaithManor, yes, I validate your observations, and ugh, I don't know what to do with it. Except feel angsty about it. Bleh.

 

 

Can you go into detail about what you meant with the bolded part?  Which subculture are you referring to?  I'm trying not to get upset over some of the insensitive comments on this thread, but there are several families here that have large families that do *gasp* educate their children properly.  Some families choose to have large families because they love children, don't believe in birth control, etc, and they successfully homeschool their older children.

[Guest]

I took a break from this thread. It had quickly taken a dark and unkind and frankly unnecessary turn that was passive/aggressive and personal.

 

I came back and reviewed my contribution. My very first post was that the article, as posted, presented a skewed picture of homeschooling. I never once "played the professional" card and in fact spoke directly and simply and courteously about my experience as a homeschooler, on this board, and with the topics that emerge from the OP. I was pursued about a side issue, which I courteously declined, and someone else played the professional card. As that point, I was called out as if I had to provide additional data, and somehow support my opinion in a way that was academic and scholarly because I happen to be a professional in education and related fields.

 

I still don't understand why I need to mute my observations and opinion simply because it doesn't present homeschooling as across the board adequate. Or because I don't wholeheartedly endorse the homeschool culture and rhetoric that assumes academic adequacy or even superiority.

 

As I have stated, my first DECADE on this board, I argued relentlessly with posters who posted content similar to that I've posted on this topic. Ria, DailyMentalMultVitamin (sorry, but something like that), Stephanie at 1/16, and maybe Doc? would routine challenge the assertion that "most homeschoolers do fine" with their own experiential realities to the contrary. I've since lived my own experiential reality to the contrary. This board *intimidates* me, I certainly don't think I know more than others or feel my opinion is more valid. But neither will I, when backed into a verbal corner, say "it's ok" and downplay or minimize what I do bring to the table in terms of any particular discussion.

I am not chatty, but I am prolific in threads in which I know things or have experience with. So, I end up in THOSE threads (but rarely others) with a frequent voice. Those topics tend to me family, discipline, spirituality, substance abuse, education, divorce and marriage.

 

I also never understood the "public schools do a bad job" argument when it stops there. I could get behind "public schools often fail, and so it doesn't make sense for our accountability to come from that system", but not an insignificant number of persons don't add the tag of accountability but simply mention some form of public schools suck. The fact that public schools fail does not elevate homeschooling.

 

Over the years, I have answered dozens of threads posted by moms about homeschooling doubts. I have encouraged moms to find ways to make homeschooling work - and have given specific suggestions when I was able to offer them. I have not,however, in the last 5 or so years, encouraged moms to keep kids home for that sake alone.

 

There are reasons to be concerned about homeschooling from an academic standard, and also the culture and community around it.  There are reasons to celebrate, to admire, and to engage.

 

Joanne, if someone demanded you give your credentials, I apologize.

[Orthodox6]

[ quoted from an earlier post]  "Parents are free to teach their kids all sorts of crazy religious crap, even if it scars them emotionally for life."

 

This quote places the writer on extremely thin ice. 

 

I am Eastern Orthodox, and have spent nearly forty years enduring Protestants attacking me for allegedly worshiping idols, for inventing false lies about God, even [comically, I admit] vehemently insisting that I am not Christian.

 

I know this was just one line from a long post; however, it is incendiary.

[Guest]

[ quoted from an earlier post]  "Parents are free to teach their kids all sorts of crazy religious crap, even if it scars them emotionally for life."

 

This quote places the writer on extremely thin ice. 

 

I am Eastern Orthodox, and have spent nearly forty years enduring Protestants attacking me for allegedly worshiping idols, for inventing false lies about God, even [comically, I admit] vehemently insisting that I am not Christian.

 

I know this was just one line from a long post; however, it is incendiary.

 

I'm a protestant and I feel our religious beliefs are between ourselves and God.  Don't sum everyone up in this!  :)

 

Besides that part, I felt the same way.

[Orthodox6]

I'm a protestant and I feel our religious beliefs are between ourselves and God.  Don't sum everyone up in this!   :)

 

Besides that part, I felt the same way.

 

I made no global summation.  That would be impossible, given that there are many thousands of distinct Protestant groups in the world!  :001_smile:   What I wrote, as it stands, notes only that Protestant individuals (not Mormons, nor Catholics, not Jehovah's Witnesses, not. . .) have acted in such manner.

 

Anyway, I don't think we are arguing about anything, and hope that you do not, either.

 

My point, which I hoped was clear from the final sentence, is that what the poster wrote "is incendiary" in the eyes of any religious person, no matter what that person's religion.

 

[Guest]

I made no global summation.  That would be impossible, given that there are many thousands of distinct Protestant groups in the world!  :001_smile:   What I wrote, as it stands, notes only that Protestant individuals (not Mormons, nor Catholics, not Jehovah's Witnesses, not. . .) have acted in such manner.

 

Anyway, I don't think we are arguing about anything, and hope that you do not, either.

 

 

 

No, we are not arguing.  :)

[Orthodox6]

No, we are not arguing.   :)

 

I just edited my last answer to you, and hope that it clears things up!

[Guest]

I just edited my last answer to you, and hope that it clears things up!

 

Thank you!  Yes, I agree... it was offensive to all religions.  

[Orthodox6]

Thank you!  Yes, I agree... it was offensive to all religions.  

 

I'm glad we're "squared"!  When people write, they sometimes "cut corners", and think that their intended context is clear to all readers.  I was thinking along the lines of (if I were to articulate my background brain stream, that is) "It will be clear that I am offering one example, only, of the many examples which could be offered by other posters to express their own disgruntled responses."

[Guest]

I got soooo side-tracked, LOL. 

 

I agree that homeschoolers, as a whole, need to be less judgmental about other homeschoolers who choose alternate plans for the higher grades.  I mentioned that my oldest two (that wanted to try out ps and are in their second year of it - middle school) are going to be back at home, soon.  I didn't mention that they will most likely be doing an online school through our state.  I have a third grader that I am homeschooling the traditional route and also a toddler (who is very demanding).  I want to make sure the oldest two learn everything they would at ps.  We live in a great school district... academics is not why I want to pull them.  It's my duty to make sure they get the same (or better) education at home, or even more so, since they are doing so well in ps.  Why pull them so they can do less at home?  With these considerations in mind, I feel that it is best for them to use an online charter school (or some other program that includes instructional CD's/videos, etc) for now.  Many of the complaints I hear about online charter schools are that they take all day.  While I don't think they should take 10-12 hours, I do expect them to take about the same amount of time they would spend in school.  Middle and high school should take a long time.  

 

Anyway, side-tracked again!  In general, most homeschoolers are against these online schools (and even turn their noses down at those who do use them), but sometimes I wonder what type of education their older children are getting (based on their reasons for not liking the charter schools).  There may be other reasons they don't like online schools that I'm not considering, but overall, I just hear that it's a lot of work (although a few complained about kinks in the system, confusion from the teachers, etc. and those reasons are completely valid).

 

ETA: I'm not saying that everyone should use online schools for middle or high school.  I'm just saying that, for us, this seems to be the way to go for now.  It may change later, but for now, I see that as *our* best route.  I just think we should be more accepting of this route if it's what it takes to get the job done well for higher grades.

[Guest]

I'm glad we're "squared"!  When people write, they sometimes "cut corners", and think that their intended context is clear to all readers.  I was thinking along the lines of (if I were to articulate my background brain stream, that is) "It will be clear that I am offering one example, only, of the many examples which could be offered by other posters to express their own disgruntled responses."

 

Totally understand!  :)

[idnib]

I think it's very difficult to bring up a lack of rigor to someone who is already homeschooling. It seems like the best time to have an impact is when someone is considering homeschooling.

 

When I first decided to homeschool I mostly had a picture of early elementary, thanks to all the blogs, picture books, math manipulatives, etc. I also had a partial picture in mind of high school, mostly because I have a terrible long-term memory so that's the clearest pre-university picture I have of my own education. And then there was the middle, which I didn't have a clear picture of when I began, although it's become more clear. In part, I don't know what it's like to have a child who's of middle school capability. I'm just getting there and am relieved by seeing the growth in his abilities. When I think ahead I panic because I compare the work I want him to do with his current capabilities, then I realize I need to have faith he will be ready. Each day my DS is the oldest kid I've ever dealt with. I now know about 10 year olds; 11 year olds are a mystery to me.  :o

 

When I was pregnant with my oldest and we found out, DH fast-forwarded to board games, park trips, hiking, etc. He didn't understand the newborn-age 7 phase so he mentally glossed over it to what he could grok.  :)  I think it's a common human trait and we can have an impact by helping people picture what academics would really look like at different ages.

[Jasperstone]

Off the current subject, but just recently I met a new home schooling family and when I asked what made her pull out her children from ps. She replied that it was when her Year 10 daughter was taught capitals and full stops! It gets worse, I told this to another friend who just went through university, and she told me that they repeat it there as well! Something is seriously wrong with Queensland's education!

[Rosie_0801]

Off the current subject, but just recently I met a new home schooling family and when I asked what made her pull out her children from ps. She replied that it was when her Year 10 daughter was taught capitals and full stops! It gets worse, I told this to another friend who just went through university, and she told me that they repeat it there as well! Something is seriously wrong with Queensland's education!

 

:blink:

[creekland]

My experience of home schooling older children, is of increasing ease. The material becomes more interesting, children are more independent, there is far less demand on my physical energy...I guess that's the benefit of having a smaller family.

 

Same here.  I only started homeschooling when my kids hit 9th, 7th, and 5th grades respectively.  In hindsight, I probably should have left my 5th grader in for another couple of years because I'm far more suited to teach the higher grades than the lower.

 

It's not quite that easy as my then 5th grader was 2 years behind in math when I pulled him out... he did catch up... but the expectations I put on him over those years soured him from homeschooling and he returned to ps for 9th - 12th.  So... pros and cons.

 

I still think in hindsight I'd have started homeschooling all of mine when they hit 7th grade.

 

But I remind myself that I work in our local public high school... so not only is that where my comfort level is, it's also something I could keep up on to ensure my guys were at "levels" I wanted them to be at.  This doesn't fit everyone's situation.

 

I admire those of you who can effectively teach the younger set.  ;)  We, of course, supplemented our kids with tons of extras from travel to history to philosophy and science/math, etc, but it was definitely supplemental.  The foundation of reading and writing, etc, came from ps.

[maize]

Creekland, I have the opposite perspective from you in that I am comfortable homeschooling the early years, in a relaxed manner, because that is what my mother did and I know how well things turned out in my family. But starting around age 8 she sent each of us to school for more structured academics; when I decided to keep my older children home past that point I felt the pressure of needing to do something unfamiliar--provide the formal academics we got at school in a home environment. I am not sure what I will do as my children get older; I like the idea of homeschooling clear through, motivated in part by some rather miserable years in junior high and high school, but i am open to choosing whatever path best fits the needs of my children.

 

I like to hang out on the high school board here, it is very helpful to see how other people are approaching the upper grades with their children.

[SarahW]

I'm so sorry this is triggering for you, Sarah. :(  I applaud your passion regarding not having your experience happen to your kids or to anyone else. I'm right there with you! :)

 

I think the key difference between the neglect that's passed of as "independent learning" and scaffolding is that scaffolding of instruction doesn't mean that you eventually end up ignoring the students. :)  My apologies if it came across that way - I think I need some scaffolded instruction in expressing myself well in writing!  When I was talking about scaffolding the instruction towards being able to "do it themselves", it was more directed at learning of skills, not a path to lead to eventually sending the kids off to do all the work by themselves.  Take literary analysis.  You would absolutely have discussions with the student but even the discussions would be scaffolded.  Instead of telling the student what they should be thinking about the piece of literature and how exactly they should word their essay to make sure it's "correct", the discussion would be more Socratic - the parent should be the guide, not the giver of answers.  The parent can help the student to brainstorm the essay but they shouldn't be rewriting sentences for the student or "correcting" the rough draft in such a way that they basically rewrite the essay.  If this is a student's first go at literary analysis, then the discussion is going to be more towards the side of "giving answers".  Slowly, the discussions move away from that towards the type of discussion that two equal, educated peers would be having about the literature in question.  Does that make sense?  In my mind, "independent" doesn't mean "in a room by myself" but it does mean that I'm not being given the answers or being led by the hand towards a final goal.  I probably should have clarified that. :)

 

I do apologize if it seemed as though I was saying we need to move towards just ignoring the kids.  Eek! :)

 

 

No, no, it's ok. It's just that it seems that when someone has littles and asks "how can I get everything done with my oldest?!" the answer skews towards "oh, it's fine! The oldest can be independent, he can do it all himself!" Which is sorta true, yes, but it also isn't. And if this advice is misused, it can lead to severe educational neglect, and some very lonely homeschooled tweens/teens.

 

Yeah, that wasn't what you were exactly saying, but in the context of this discussion it made me very nervous. Didn't mean to pick on you. Just wanted to point out that homeschooling older kids is just different, and not necessarily less intensive.

[SarahW]

 

Can you go into detail about what you meant with the bolded part?  Which subculture are you referring to?  I'm trying not to get upset over some of the insensitive comments on this thread, but there are several families here that have large families that do *gasp* educate their children properly.  Some families choose to have large families because they love children, don't believe in birth control, etc, and they successfully homeschool their older children.

 

The subculture I'm referring to is the one that says the value of a woman's "motherhood" rests largely on just how many babies she has. And celebrates those squishy little babies all over, but when they stop being cute and start acting up, hmm, you should probably just beat them more to make them behave.

 

We were Gothardites for a little while, and don't get me wrong, I love my little sibs, but there is something fundamentally wrong with a culture that prioritizes just having more babies over learning how to properly parent (and educate, since Gothard is homeschool-only) the kids you have. Motherhood is a lot more than just being a baby machine, kwim?

 

If that doesn't describe you at all, that's GREAT.

[Joanne]

Same here.  I only started homeschooling when my kids hit 9th, 7th, and 5th grades respectively.  In hindsight, I probably should have left my 5th grader in for another couple of years because I'm far more suited to teach the higher grades than the lower.

 

It's not quite that easy as my then 5th grader was 2 years behind in math when I pulled him out... he did catch up... but the expectations I put on him over those years soured him from homeschooling and he returned to ps for 9th - 12th.  So... pros and cons.

 

I still think in hindsight I'd have started homeschooling all of mine when they hit 7th grade.

 

But I remind myself that I work in our local public high school... so not only is that where my comfort level is, it's also something I could keep up on to ensure my guys were at "levels" I wanted them to be at.  This doesn't fit everyone's situation.

 

I admire those of you who can effectively teach the younger set.  ;)  We, of course, supplemented our kids with tons of extras from travel to history to philosophy and science/math, etc, but it was definitely supplemental.  The foundation of reading and writing, etc, came from ps.

 

I homeschooled through my oldest's 9th grade year. I would have homeschooled longer but my life at the time prevented it.

 

I have more patience for and energy for the older crowd, probably 9th and up. What I don't have for the High School crowd is sufficient knowledge and ability to *teach* the STEM subjects. I believe in my ability to facilitate those subjects, to choose curriculum, to choose co-ops, to select outsourcing.

 

I'm confident in my ability to teach English, History. and some electives.

 

I admit, though, I believe in having a set of skills corresponding with development. I believe in research papers, labs, higher math. This informs what I think should be done throughout homeschooling.

[Crimson Wife]

So what can homeschoolers do when we see a family where the parent is in over their heads (and realizes it, but has a whole litany of reasons for why it's OK) and the kids are way behind, but the parent is probably legally within the bounds of homeschooling in a low or no regulation/evaluation required state?  IS there anything we can/should do, besides answer questions when they're asked?

 

If it's just the overwhelmed by life thing, I've suggested enrolling in a virtual school that provides the curriculum like K12.

 

But those aren't typically the families I'm worried about experiencing long-term educational neglect. It's the subset of "unschoolers" who are anti-intellectual and who aren't working to create an environment conducive to learning. There are some fantastic "unschoolers" who work very hard to find resources for their kids and "strew" them about, etc. But then there are some who don't make that effort and who take a "my kid's just not interested in book learning" attitude when their child is a middle schooler and illiterate or barely literate.

 

What can any of us outsiders do when the problem is the parent's fundamental philosophy?

[maize]

If it's just the overwhelmed by life thing, I've suggested enrolling in a virtual school that provides the curriculum like K12.

 

But those aren't typically the families I'm worried about experiencing long-term educational neglect. It's the subset of "unschoolers" who are anti-intellectual and who aren't working to create an environment conducive to learning. There are some fantastic "unschoolers" who work very hard to find resources for their kids and "strew" them about, etc. But then there are some who don't make that effort and who take a "my kid's just not interested in book learning" attitude when their child is a middle schooler and illiterate or barely literate.

 

What can any of us outsiders do when the problem is the parent's fundamental philosophy?

Really, nothing.

 

Not even when the child is in school. Studies have shown over and over again that the students who perform best in school are those with strong parental support of education. I'm sure there are rare exceptions, but that is the rule.

 

A special ed teacher I know told me of one of her students whose parents actively discouraged him from listening to teachers and following directions--dad taught the kid to say to teachers "you aren't the boss of me". Realistically, the best efforts of education professionals weren't going to get far with that kid.

[Guest]

No, no, it's ok. It's just that it seems that when someone has littles and asks "how can I get everything done with my oldest?!" the answer skews towards "oh, it's fine! The oldest can be independent, he can do it all himself!" Which is sorta true, yes, but it also isn't. And if this advice is misused, it can lead to severe educational neglect, and some very lonely homeschooled tweens/teens.

 

Yeah, that wasn't what you were exactly saying, but in the context of this discussion it made me very nervous. Didn't mean to pick on you. Just wanted to point out that homeschooling older kids is just different, and not necessarily less intensive.

 

When people say that, do they mean like with a set program (like what I am considering? Online public schools?) or just they'll do it on their own with a few books left around for them?

[Guest]

The subculture I'm referring to is the one that says the value of a woman's "motherhood" rests largely on just how many babies she has. And celebrates those squishy little babies all over, but when they stop being cute and start acting up, hmm, you should probably just beat them more to make them behave.

 

We were Gothardites for a little while, and don't get me wrong, I love my little sibs, but there is something fundamentally wrong with a culture that prioritizes just having more babies over learning how to properly parent (and educate, since Gothard is homeschool-only) the kids you have. Motherhood is a lot more than just being a baby machine, kwim?

 

If that doesn't describe you at all, that's GREAT.

 

Okay, I see.  Thanks for going into more detail.  

 

No, I don't agree with this philosophy.

[HS Mom in NC]

I homeschooled through my oldest's 9th grade year. I would have homeschooled longer but my life at the time prevented it.

 

I have more patience for and energy for the older crowd, probably 9th and up. What I don't have for the High School crowd is sufficient knowledge and ability to *teach* the STEM subjects. I believe in my ability to facilitate those subjects, to choose curriculum, to choose co-ops, to select outsourcing.

 

I'm confident in my ability to teach English, History. and some electives.

 

I admit, though, I believe in having a set of skills corresponding with development. I believe in research papers, labs, higher math. This informs what I think should be done throughout homeschooling.

 

Yep.  If my husband wasn't the math and science guy he is, I'd have outsourced those too. Maybe the difference is, you and I wouldn't have apologized for it.  I think there are some homeschoolers who feel the need to apologize when they see they need specialized help or feel pressure to avoid help at all cost.  Where does this come from and how do we work on fixing it so other homeschoolers don't fall into this trap?

 

My husband and I had the conversation when the kids were nearing Jr. High math and science.  I told him there was no way I would be able to teach it, so was he taking it over or was I looking for someone else to do it and how much was in the budget for it if I had to pay for it. We'd discussed it briefly when we started homeschooling, so it wasn't out of the blue or contrary to the plan we agreed on.  We had to make some adjustments based on his work schedule and our evening activities so it could happen.

 

Ya gotta do whatcha gotta do.

[creekland]

I outsourced English for two years for my homeschooled high schoolers.  No regrets.

 

Middle also did Microbio and Public Speaking at our local cc in addition to the English.

 

I think it's good when we recognize our strengths and weaknesses and choose accordingly to do our best for our students.

[idnib]

I am planning to use WTM Academy for WWS 1 next year. I feel I could do it without guidance, but not as well as if I first watch it done.

 

It's the difference between reading a recipe and watching it made. Sometimes I have to make a recipe several times before I get it the way I want it. I don't have the luxury of teaching WWS 1 several times to each kid, so I'm going to watch and be grateful.

[Dmmetler]

When people say that, do they mean like with a set program (like what I am considering? Online public schools?) or just they'll do it on their own with a few books left around for them?

 

More the latter, sometimes "buying a set program", but not actually checking to see if the kids a) have done it, b) if they did, that they did in a way that actually leads to understanding (as opposed to googling answers or looking them up in the answer key) or C) retained any understanding of the topic whatsoever (not necessarily a comprehensive final, but not even necessarily talking with the kids about what they're doing).

 

 

I'm sure there are people who successfully use Teaching Textbooks, for example, and have kids who come out understanding math and doing well, but I'm now to the point that I mentally cringe when I hear someone saying that they love TT because "It does it all for you", because invariably, when I have their child in a class setting, and their child needs math, they can't handle math that they should be able to do based on the level of TT they're using.

[HS Mom in NC]

I am planning to use WTM Academy for WWS 1 next year. I feel I could do it without guidance, but not as well as if I first watch it done.

 

It's the difference between reading a recipe and watching it made. Sometimes I have to make a recipe several times before I get it the way I want it. I don't have the luxury of teaching WWS 1 several times to each kid, so I'm going to watch and be grateful.

 

Just so you know, WWS1 is written directly to the student and the instructor guide has a very long list of specific questions to ask a student when they're stumped. It also has examples of what each step should resemble and a rubric for what should be in the completed writing assignment. That doesn't mean you shouldn't sign up for WTM Academy next year.  I just wanted to make boardies aware that there are resources that are less parent dependent. 

 

Someone trying to do all the instruction on their own and feeling frustrated by it or people who want to a more independent learning for their child (in the real sense, not the they-read-whatever-they-want sense) should be aware that some curricula do it this way. Not everyone is aware of that, so I thought your post would be a good time to point it out in case other people think they might be good candidates for it.

 

I think there's a big market for resources like this in more subjects. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.  There are middle ground options out there.  Like I said, that doesn't mean anyone should have to pick all mom or middle ground options.  Outsourcing is a wonderful resource that meets a variety of needs and when everyone has lots of different kinds of options to choose from, everyone benefits. More choices are better than less choices.

[idnib]

Just so you know, WWS1 is written directly to the student and the instructor guide has a very long list of specific questions to ask a student when they're stumped. It also has examples of what each step should resemble and a rubric for what should be in the completed writing assignment. That doesn't mean you shouldn't sign up for WTM Academy next year.  I just wanted to make boardies aware that there are resources that are less parent dependent. 

 

Someone trying to do all the instruction on their own and feeling frustrated by it or people who want to a more independent learning for their child (in the real sense, not the they-read-whatever-they-want sense) should be aware that some curricula do it this way. Not everyone is aware of that, so I thought your post would be a good time to point it out in case other people think they might be good candidates for it.

 

I think there's a big market for resources like this in more subjects. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.  There are middle ground options out there.  Like I said, that doesn't mean anyone should have to pick all mom or middle ground options.  Outsourcing is a wonderful resource that meets a variety of needs and when everyone has lots of different kinds of options to choose from, everyone benefits. More choices are better than less choices.

 

Thanks. I did know that from watching SWB's WWS video, but I'm glad you posted this. 

[apennieformythoughts]

Can I be transparent without getting attacked? Sometimes I feel like I'm caught in the trap of homeschooling the way SarahW describes her experience growing up. Not intentionally, though. We don't homeschool for religious reasons. This is our 2nd year. My girls are in 6th and 3rd grade. The oldest is behind in math (it was her coming home from school feeling stupid that was the catalyst), the youngest isn't much interested in reading. I'm pushing math and reading hard this year, because they are behind, and I'm not comfortable with the fact that my 8 year old isn't reading fluently yet. And it does bother me that my oldest is still struggling with multiplication. Math is also my weak area, which makes it even harder to help her reach higher goals. The longer we homeschool, the more I favor it ideologically. My reasons have changed for why we do this, but I still struggle with our workload. I honestly feel like it's not enough, but whenever I try to reach out to homeschool groups on facebook, or people in real life, I get the advice of "it's just a season, everyone should deschool for a bit, anything is better than PS, when they are ready, they'll catch on," and I don't necessarily always want to hear that. I agree with that to an extent. I don't consider it educational neglect to be a bit lackadaisical or relaxed, but I consider it a slippery slope. We do stuff. We read, the girls are in gymnastics (8yo), piano (11yo), they both play soccer, we go on field trips (both fun and educational), we watch documentaries as we want to, I read to my 8yo, we try to do 1 or 2 AAR lessons a day, but we've been slacking on that the past few days because we babysat and that threw our schedule off, my oldest is reading The Giver and doing vocab, quizzes, and comprehension questions on that, we learned a bit on ancient America, we have the first Learn Math Fast book and are working on that together. But our days feel too bare. We did math a bit this morning and went to the library. The 11yo is doing her book on her own time, I read with the youngest one. And that was it. Do any of you have a bit more guidance? 

[Guest]

Can I be transparent without getting attacked? Sometimes I feel like I'm caught in the trap of homeschooling the way SarahW describes her experience growing up. Not intentionally, though. We don't homeschool for religious reasons. This is our 2nd year. My girls are in 6th and 3rd grade. The oldest is behind in math (it was her coming home from school feeling stupid that was the catalyst), the youngest isn't much interested in reading. I'm pushing math and reading hard this year, because they are behind, and I'm not comfortable with the fact that my 8 year old isn't reading fluently yet. And it does bother me that my oldest is still struggling with multiplication. Math is also my weak area, which makes it even harder to help her reach higher goals. The longer we homeschool, the more I favor it ideologically. My reasons have changed for why we do this, but I still struggle with our workload. I honestly feel like it's not enough, but whenever I try to reach out to homeschool groups on facebook, or people in real life, I get the advice of "it's just a season, everyone should deschool for a bit, anything is better than PS, when they are ready, they'll catch on," and I don't necessarily always want to hear that. I agree with that to an extent. I don't consider it educational neglect to be a bit lackadaisical or relaxed, but I consider it a slippery slope. We do stuff. We read, the girls are in gymnastics (8yo), piano (11yo), they both play soccer, we go on field trips (both fun and educational), we watch documentaries as we want to, I read to my 8yo, we try to do 1 or 2 AAR lessons a day, but we've been slacking on that the past few days because we babysat and that threw our schedule off, my oldest is reading The Giver and doing vocab, quizzes, and comprehension questions on that, we learned a bit on ancient America, we have the first Learn Math Fast book and are working on that together. But our days feel too bare. We did math a bit this morning and went to the library. The 11yo is doing her book on her own time, I read with the youngest one. And that was it. Do any of you have a bit more guidance? 

 

This is the way I see it (others may not agree with me):  If your children were in school, they would not be able to take off a few days to babysit.  Homeschool offers a bit more flexibility than that, but you have to be careful with that freedom!  In our home, any days taken off are made up.  This includes sick days.  There are so many lessons that need to be completed each year (typically 170-180) and they must be completed to move on to the next grade.  Again, this is my way of homeschooling.  

 

I don't agree with all the "when they are ready, they'll catch on" past kindergarten-ish.  Some kids take a little longer to learn how to read, sure, but don't give up.  Try a different approach or curriculum.  *If a child has a learning disability, that is something to consider (and a completely different story).*  If someone doesn't get something and needs to slow down for a bit, fine... but then they need to catch up.  Again, this is in my homeschool.  

 

School work comes before extracurriculars.  Period.  School isn't done for the day?  No field trips, sports, art... nothing.  If these things meet early on a weekday, and it becomes a habit that the work isn't done later that day?  Work on the weekend.

 

If you are uncomfortable with a subject past a certain grade... get a program where someone else teaches it.  Saxon math has a DIVE CD for this.  A Beka has DVD/streaming programs, etc.

 

Yes, this sounds harsh, but it gets the job done.  It really does.   :)

[Guest]

Agreeing with a need to make yourself get work done before or after other activities that take you out of the home. I've just made up a block scheduling timetable for next term to hopefully make really good use of the time we do have at home - we have a lot of time learning out of the home as well.

 

 And with outsourcing where needed. I actually think it's really good for children to start learning about how other people teach, how to behave in a class. The beauty of home schooling is that you have a flexible timetable for accomplishing this - if your 5 year old isn't ready, no sweat. You can try again in a few months. My ds wasn't ready till 8. I pushed him somewhat before then, but gently. It's fine. He goes to classes without a backward glance now.

 

I think what you need to accompany flexibility is persistence. You don't want to be so flexible that everything falls by the wayside, that you give up. Flexibility is a tool to help you meet a child's genuine cognitive, emotional and social needs. Use it wisely :)

 

Yup.  My youngest brother repeated a grade because he was a late learner (it was kindergarten).  Later, he was able to somehow catch up and get back to the grade he would have been in had he not repeated kindergarten (this was in private school).  I was pretty impressed by that, but not everyone can do that.  Some children just need a little more time.  This is what people used to mean when they said it's fine to slow down if a child needs it.  There is a difference in that and just getting lazy and making excuses for not getting work done. Not referring to Apennieformythoughs, here.  I'm referring to the excuses we've all probably heard.

 

I agree with scheduling everything, too.  I always have each year planned out on paper for each child I am homeschooling.  That way, we have set goals and know what needs to be done each day.  We plan in set holidays and I always know that if there is a sick day, that it's made up on a weekend or tacked on at the end of the year (which no one wants to do, so weekend make-ups are done by choice).  We don't have to work Monday-Friday.  Some years we work Sunday-Thursday.  That's the beauty of homeschooling.  Freedom to get the work done on our schedule.  The work has to be done, though!   :p  I always tell my kids... school work is just that... work.  It's not all fun and games.  We can make it as fun/interesting as possible, but there are times where it just comes down to sitting down and getting it done.

[HS Mom in NC]

 I'm pushing math and reading hard this year, because they are behind, and I'm not comfortable with the fact that my 8 year old isn't reading fluently yet.

 

Not reading fluently at 8 is within the normal range.  If you've been giving the phonics a go in diligent consistent way for a while and it's just not sticking, then the child isn't being neglected.  My middle child started college at 15.  She was ready to start learning to read at almost 8 years old.  How did I know?  Well, when she was 5 we got out the phonics, did two 10 minute lessons a day for a few weeks and nothing stuck.  We put it away for 3 or 4 months and got it back out and tried again.  Nothing.  Same thing 3 to 4 months after that.  Nada. In the mean time we continued to read aloud high quality children's books, practiced writing letters and copying simple words, did math, read aloud about nature and other sciences, read aloud history and got her a copy of SOTW on CD for review, etc.  Eventually, just before she turned 8, the phonics started to stick and by the time she was 11 she could read fluently like an adult. I knew my oldest wasn't normal learning to read fluently like an adult by age 5.  I'm not at all bothered that my youngest is 9 and can't read fluently like an adult yet.  It will come. She's a good, solid reader and we continue to work on it.

 

And it does bother me that my oldest is still struggling with multiplication. Math is also my weak area, which makes it even harder to help her reach higher goals.

 

My oldest struggled with math. We had to do skip counting songs and flashcards with the answers on them for a long time to help her memorize things.  I think the problem is in saying, "My daughter struggles with math, so I don't expect her to learn math." Which isn't what you're doing.  I think it's better to say, "What have others done with kids who struggle with multiplication?" and then seeing if there's something you haven't tried yet that might work.  Maybe it's a change in curriculum.  Maybe you need something more right brained by Diane Craft.  Maybe video instruction will work better.  Maybe some time with a math tutor will help.  Maybe asking a math tutor to be a consultant to evaluate what specifically you should focus on with her for now and how to focus on it.  A consultation fee will probably be higher than the hourly tutorial fees, but that's what consultants do. Maybe sign her up for abacus classes if you have some available.

 

 

The longer we homeschool, the more I favor it ideologically. My reasons have changed for why we do this, but I still struggle with our workload. I honestly feel like it's not enough, but whenever I try to reach out to homeschool groups on facebook, or people in real life, I get the advice of "it's just a season, everyone should deschool for a bit, anything is better than PS, when they are ready, they'll catch on," and I don't necessarily always want to hear that. I agree with that to an extent. I don't consider it educational neglect to be a bit lackadaisical or relaxed, but I consider it a slippery slope. We do stuff. We read, the girls are in gymnastics (8yo), piano (11yo), they both play soccer, we go on field trips (both fun and educational), we watch documentaries as we want to, I read to my 8yo, we try to do 1 or 2 AAR lessons a day, but we've been slacking on that the past few days because we babysat and that threw our schedule off, my oldest is reading The Giver and doing vocab, quizzes, and comprehension questions on that, we learned a bit on ancient America, we have the first Learn Math Fast book and are working on that together. But our days feel too bare. We did math a bit this morning and went to the library. The 11yo is doing her book on her own time, I read with the youngest one. And that was it. Do any of you have a bit more guidance? 

 

I've homeschooled through a couple of crisis situations.  In those times  Reading, Writing and Math were our primary focus.  Once the crisis was over, we could add back in other things. If  someone can't school according to a child's needs and abilities all the time or for extended periods of time then something has to change.  If it's just temporary and the few things that are being given priority are being done diligently and well, I think room can be made for a smaller number of subjects.  Once a child is reading fluently, reading can consist of high quality living  books in history and science.  The writing can be based on what the child's reading. Math can be given attention daily. 

 

Or maybe a different schedule can be adopted for a while.  Maybe more days of school per week but fewer hours per day is the best option for a while.  Maybe fewer days of school per week need to happen, but those days need an additional hour or two to keep moving forward steadily. Maybe the school year needs to start later and end later. Maybe the school year needs more weeks in it for this year.  Maybe it's time for a year round schedule.

 

This is when short term, mid term and long term goals are useful tools.  What do you want to accomplish today?  This week?  This month? This semester?  This year?  By mid-elementary school?  By the end of elementary school?  By the end of middle school?  By the end of high school?  If you zoom out a little do you see your homeschool still making progress for the year?  Are you falling more and more behind? Which subjects need more attention?  Which need less? Which skills have they mastered?  Which do they struggle with?  Which skills are dependent on others? If your kid were in school what would the teacher tell you to work on with him/her?

 

 

 

[LibraryLover]

I agree.  Over the 12+ years I've been around these boards, there have been umpteen women post about struggling.  The majority of people will always say "it's okay... go easy... go light... just read aloud for now"  or other such advice.  I never did and never would do that.  To paraphrase ... "A gal's gotta know her limitations."  If you cannot homeschool, don't homeschool.  Find something else that will work for your child's needs because homeschooling is NOT about you, the parent.  It's about what the child needs and what will work best for them.  Hard times come along, for sure, but if you can't find a way to keep the commitment to education, then they need to have that education somewhere or somehow else. Homeschooling is NOT your entitlement.  It is your responsibility.

 

I have never said that. But I have suggested folks start reading more, start paying attention to the important things. Too many folks think home education is a fat stack of workbook pages completed.

 

That isn't true. A pile of forced workbook pages doesn't mean the child has understood and integrated the ideas.

 

Stacks and piles might make adults feel they did something, but it doesn't mean kids are better off.

[creekland]

I'm sure there are people who successfully use Teaching Textbooks, for example, and have kids who come out understanding math and doing well, but I'm now to the point that I mentally cringe when I hear someone saying that they love TT because "It does it all for you", because invariably, when I have their child in a class setting, and their child needs math, they can't handle math that they should be able to do based on the level of TT they're using.

 

Just to be clear, TT isn't the problem.  We used it exclusively for all three of my boys (though we didn't start until TT Math 6 since my youngest was in 5th grade when we started homeschooling and I believe TT to be a year behind my ideals).

 

My two who homeschooled through high school used it for Geom, & Pre-Calc and scored in the Top 3% and Top TOP 1% respectively on the SAT/ACT.  The Top 3% boy had Alg 1 + 2 in ps.  The Top 1% boy had Alg 1 & 2 via TT.  Both also went on to Calc with no issues foundationally whatsoever.

 

The problem can come from any curricula and comes when the student isn't learning the math.  They are just learning to memorize it, or perhaps with TT's online grading, are learning to cheat the system.

[Ausmumof3]

Can I be transparent without getting attacked? Sometimes I feel like I'm caught in the trap of homeschooling the way SarahW describes her experience growing up. Not intentionally, though. We don't homeschool for religious reasons. This is our 2nd year. My girls are in 6th and 3rd grade. The oldest is behind in math (it was her coming home from school feeling stupid that was the catalyst), the youngest isn't much interested in reading. I'm pushing math and reading hard this year, because they are behind, and I'm not comfortable with the fact that my 8 year old isn't reading fluently yet. And it does bother me that my oldest is still struggling with multiplication. Math is also my weak area, which makes it even harder to help her reach higher goals. The longer we homeschool, the more I favor it ideologically. My reasons have changed for why we do this, but I still struggle with our workload. I honestly feel like it's not enough, but whenever I try to reach out to homeschool groups on facebook, or people in real life, I get the advice of "it's just a season, everyone should deschool for a bit, anything is better than PS, when they are ready, they'll catch on," and I don't necessarily always want to hear that. I agree with that to an extent. I don't consider it educational neglect to be a bit lackadaisical or relaxed, but I consider it a slippery slope. We do stuff. We read, the girls are in gymnastics (8yo), piano (11yo), they both play soccer, we go on field trips (both fun and educational), we watch documentaries as we want to, I read to my 8yo, we try to do 1 or 2 AAR lessons a day, but we've been slacking on that the past few days because we babysat and that threw our schedule off, my oldest is reading The Giver and doing vocab, quizzes, and comprehension questions on that, we learned a bit on ancient America, we have the first Learn Math Fast book and are working on that together. But our days feel too bare. We did math a bit this morning and went to the library. The 11yo is doing her book on her own time, I read with the youngest one. And that was it. Do any of you have a bit more guidance?

I haven't read the whole thread but a couple of things stand out for me. I don't know what the situation is with the babysitting but often people can presume because you're home you're free to drop everything. It has been helpful to me to set up a rough schedule and say xyz are school hours, sorry we are not available then. I don't have to be totally strict but people need to realise that your time is committed.

 

The other thing is if I feel it's too light on often it's because I don't have enough resources for the subjects I'm trying to cover.

 

I roughly block my mornings into an hour for maths (2 kids) and hour for language and an hour for read alouds (includes science and history). The afternoon has what I think of as fuzzy subjects - art, Italian, piano, pe, design. That way if we get derailed at least Maths and language gets done.

[6packofun]

I've seen it in extreme fundamentalist houses, and unschooling houses. Both extremes have it. 

 

 

 

 

Same here.  It seems to be only the fundy Christians who get press, though.  (Unless the parent(s) make the news for actual physical abuse or murder, but even then the family's religion is usually trotted out as well.  lol)

 

We are friends with a family that "unschools".  I'm pretty sure they are not even notifying their school district, which is required in our state.  They do NO school work, but the daughter goes to a "co-op" of unschoolers where they do arts, crafts, and other non-core (I guess I would call them) classes.  It's fun and social and they also go to lots of neat places as a family--not usually of historical significance or anything specifically educational, IMO. 

 

It's tough.  Do I think they are being neglectful?  YES.  However, if I compare the experience and opportunities and extra-curricular type stuff that they do with their kids--the ONLY thing they are purposefully doing with their kids--they show up our hard-working eclectic homeschooling family by quite a bit.  Kwim?  We just can't afford all that fun.  lol  They also don't seem to believe in any discipline whatsoever.  What *should* I do?  (As an example, I don't think their 12yo has ever read a single book in his life.  I think that's sad and wrong.)

 

The other family I know of currently is one that I get info about second and third-hand from my mom.  The mother in the family in question is mentally unstable.  She needs psychological help but the husband is a total wimp and doesn't seem to want to rock the boat.  The kids are supposed to be doing a charter school, but their grandmother said that the last time she was there no one was doing school, her daughter (the mom in question) could only crawl up and down the stairs and seems to be "hanging out in the basement all the time".  I am astounded that the family has not offered help or called children's services.  I am offering advice to the mentally ill mom's AUNT, through my mom.  (Got that?!!)  How sad is it that *I*, some daughter of a friend of a relative am the only one URGING them to seek help??

 

These are complicated situations and I look at them individually.  Every single situation and family should be looked at individually and not lumped into a group or sub-group that someone claims to have so much experience with that they can diagnose the problem fully.  It IS a problem, but the answers are as varied as the families.

[apennieformythoughts]

I don't know how to snip posts, so I just copied some of the things I want to respond to. 

 

"Personally, I don't think relaxed schooling is a slippery slope. I would call my homeschool 'relaxed'. And yet I stay aware of a need not to plateau in my expectations. I mean really, it's just like parenting. You don't treat a 17 year old like a 10 year old, or the 10 year old like a 4 year old....so why would you school a 5th grader like a 2nd grader ? Kwim ?"

 

I think slippery slope was the wrong way to describe what I mean. I meant, for me, that if I get TOO relaxed, it slides towards pure laziness/nothing getting done. One derailed day bleeds into the next, which bleeds into the next. So for people like me, I do think that a bit more structure would keep me more on task and focused on what we are doing that day. 

 

 

 

"Yes, this sounds harsh, but it gets the job done.  It really does.    :)"

 

It doesn't sound harsh to me. I appreciate a clear look at the situation. I do believe that there are seasons where things are tough, but I also know that that can be a bs excuse to not do anything. I can only speak for myself, of course, but I know it's a trap that I fall into. "It's ok that things are hard. It's ok if we don't do this lesson today." I appreciate no-nonsense advice. 

 

"I think what you need to accompany flexibility is persistence. You don't want to be so flexible that everything falls by the wayside, that you give up. Flexibility is a tool to help you meet a child's genuine cognitive, emotional and social needs. Use it wisely  :)"

 

Ah, Sadie! I think this is hitting the nail on the head. I am very flexible. But that flexibility knocks my persistence right out the window. Everything DOES start to fall by the wayside. Mirroring it like this makes sense to me! 

 

"I haven't read the whole thread but a couple of things stand out for me. I don't know what the situation is with the babysitting but often people can presume because you're home you're free to drop everything. It has been helpful to me to set up a rough schedule and say xyz are school hours, sorry we are not available then. I don't have to be totally strict but people need to realise that your time is committed."

 

The babysitting thing was (hopefully) a one time situation. A friend had to leave town to deal with a family emergency and didn't want to bring her 4 year old with because his grandma just died and she didn't want him to have to deal with hospitals and all that stuff so soon after that. Of course I said yes, but we did have him overnight, had to bring him with to extracurriculars, and the girls were distracted by playing with him, so no actual work got done. That was 2 days, and I'm STILL trying to get us headed in the right direction, with our schedule being so knocked over like that. That's a situation where it makes sense to say yes, but I also do have a hard time saying no to other things. Library time. Time spent with another homeschooling family we are close to (they tend to finish before us, and then invite us over). Letting the girls watch one more episode, or another documentary, or another video, or whatever the case may be. I do need to learn how to say a firm NO to people (and things). 

 

"I went to public school, and struggled with math from the very beginning. By "struggled", I mean I did not understand anything at all, except perhaps basic counting. From the very beginning, I was made to stay after school to finish that math work I did not understand, often for hours. While the other kids were playing outside during recess, I'd sit with the teacher and that math work (the teacher ate, I was meant to figure the math out myself). The teachers were convinced I was lazy or defiant, since  could do other things fine and better than fine."

 

Your experience sounds like mine, to a T. I was in special ed math classes all through high school. Before high school I was in Title 1 classes, taken out of the classroom. I got shuffled along, with no real intervention. I read well, I spell well, I'm polite and respectful, I don't break rules. So they paid a bit of attention to my math problems, but not much because I wasn't causing problems in other areas. I can add and subtract just fine, but everything at the 3rd and 4th grade level starts to get progressively harder for me. I don't want my oldest daughter to EVER feel stupid, just because math isn't her strong suit. She's musical, she draws very well, she sings, she reads voraciously... there are other things she can focus on. But I don't want to do her a disservice either, and not give her those skills at all!