Are AP classes the be-all and end-all for college admissions?

[Lynn in Caribbean]

Does anybody get into a selective or fairly selective college without AP classes on their transcript?

 

Just wondering...my dd has had some dual enrollment classes, some online classes (but not AP), some co-op classes...a nice mixture that she really enjoyed.  She is very diligent, and when she takes a class, she really puts in the time to study - it has been all real learning for her - not just skimming through to get a grade.  But, as I read more and more, I am feeling like I completely missed the boat and have done her a disservice.  It seems like AP classes are so, so important.

[Crimson Wife]

She can still take AP exams without having official AP courses. This was common in my high school back before they got their courses approved by the College Board. Back when I went through, the only "official" AP course was bio, but most of the top students sat for the exams in other subjects.

[Jen in NY]

IMO, if your daughter has good grades in dual enrollment classes, high sat scores, a couple of demonstrable interests, and good letters of recommendation, she'll have as good a chance as most people. Her essays and LORs will mean a lot... Homeschooled or not.

 

ETA: Barbara is right.... some more selective schools require SAT II scores from all of their applicants ... I forgot about that aspect. :)

[regentrude]

My DD got admitted to a school with an admittance rates under 10% without a single AP class or AP exam. She did have several semesters of dual enrollment at a four year university instead.

[Barbara H]

AP tests aren't the only option but they provide some standardized basis of comparison. Depending on the student's goals and the specific schools involved, I'd look seriously at SAT subject tests as an alternative.

[Gwen in VA]

When they look at applicants, selective colleges try to see if students have the ability to succeed in their school and if the student will bring something special/unique to the school -- a talent, a skill, etc.

 

What does a college look at to see if a student will succeed? For selective colleges, students have to have some kind of outside verification of academic achievement -- SAT's, SAT-2's, AP scores, other awards or honors... Community college grades and 4-year college grades are also great sources of "outside verification."

 

AP's are not the be-all-and-end-all, but they are a relatively convenient way of showcasing academic achievement.

[Teachin'Mine]

AP classes and exams are not necessary.  Dd did have a highly rigorous college course schedule in high school and was admitted to highly selective colleges.  SAT/ACT scores count more than APs and many colleges do want SAT IIs especially from homeschoolers.  Some which require them were flexible with that requirement due to her college transcript.  I think that so much more is learned, beyond just the course content, taking actual college classes than high school AP classes.  YMMV.

[Hoggirl]

I think the answer is, "it depends." As others have noted, there is more than one way to show "outside verification." My ds did attend a B&M high school, and he did have five AP exams (AP Scholar with Distinction) under his belt with five more AP courses in progress in his senior year when he applied. AP classes were certainly an easier option since he was in a school, but I think self-studying is a viable option for those who are not. Because he attended a B&M school, he never did DE per se', though he did a summer program at a top twenty uni where he took two summer school courses that were regular college classes. As in enrolled with other college students, not just high school students. I suppose that is "sort of" DE. I do think the caliber of the institution where one does DE may make a difference, and I think courses at a four-year uni are going to be better regarded than those from a CC. JMO. He also took three Subject Tests.

 

Obviously, getting into a top school without APs (as Reg's DD did) is possible, but I think one takes a risk if leaving that stone unturned. AP exams are something that MOST kids' applications at top schools are going to have. We just took the approach of leaving no stone unturned, so to speak. If your kid has zero APs or only one or two and most other applicants have 8 - 10, then, yes, I think that *can* make a difference. Now, even at B&M schools, there may not be that many offered. I think top colleges want to see that a student has availed himself of every opportunity available to him/her. If AP classes are NOT an option, one can still self-study for AP exams. It certainly isn't the only way to go, but if one truly wants a tippy-top school, I am inclined to check off as many boxes as possible.

 

Gosh, I have way too many cliche's in this post! ha ha!

[Brenda in MA]

Does anybody get into a selective or fairly selective college without AP classes on their transcript?

Yes!

 

My oldest only had 1 DE class on his transcript and a couple of on-line courses when he applied. He also had 3 SAT 2 scores, 1 was pretty low, and 2 were good but not great. He also did have excellent ACT scores. I think it was the ACT scores that really helped him stand out.

 

As others have said, I feel like you just have to show some "outside" verification -- DE, SAT2, or AP, not necessarily all three.

 

My next one did have 2 AP scores and 2 APs in progress, but I think it was again his excellent SAT scores that made him stand out.

 

And I disagree with the sentiment expressed above that DE classes are better than APs -- I think it really depends upon the test, the student, and his/her goals. Both are good options.

 

HTH,

Brenda

[regentrude]

Obviously, getting into a top school without APs (as Reg's DD did) is possible, but I think one takes a risk if leaving that stone unturned. AP exams are something that MOST kids' applications at top schools are going to have.

 

Just to add another perspective on the issue:

one certainly does not want to leave any stone unturned, BUT it is also important to realize that students have different strengths and personalities, and only a limited amount of time and emotional energy.

To elaborate on this a bit further: the reason we consciously chose not to do AP exams is that my DD stresses extremely about tests, and that having the validation of her work rest on one single exam would have created a level of anxiety that would have driven student and parents crazy. Seriously, high stakes tests can be detrimental to the mental well-being of a student with test anxiety.

 

OTOH, she is extremely organized and possesses great study skills and the persistence and perseverance that enable her to excel in difficult college classes where a grade is based on cumulative performance  over the course of an entire semester. Plus, she thrives in a  classroom with a live instructor and fellow students and craves this interaction. So, when selecting in which way to showcase and validate your student's abilities, it is a good idea to play to your student's strengths.

 

Also, I would consider how valuable the experience itself is for the student. Not only did the DE give her a valuable taste of working in a college environment and an opportunity to develop academic cameraderie with her fellow students, it also led to a fantastic volunteer opportunity and was the source of  several stellar recommendation letters from professors who got to know her and became really invested in her application  process. (These aspects are more important for a homeschooler than for a student who attends  b&m school, is surrounded by classmates, and who has a pool of possible recommenders among his teachers)

 

None of this is meant to say that AP exams are NOT a good way to show validation - but they may not always be the best way for a particular student. With college admissions to highly selective schools being more like a lottery than anything predictable, I find it important not to burn out the student in the process of chasing that elusive  goal. The high school time is valuable in and of itself.

[JennW in SoCal]

None of this is meant to say that AP exams are NOT a good way to show validation - but they may not always be the best way for a particular student. With college admissions to highly selective schools being more like a lottery than anything predictable, I find it important not to burn out the student in the process of chasing that elusive  goal. The high school time is valuable in and of itself.

 

Amen to the bolded!

 

My kids and I are so very grateful that we allowed ourselves to enjoy the high school years.  They had dual enrollment classes, internships and volunteer work that took up much of their time, but they avoided high stakes testing like the plague.  We made time to share books, to drop everything once in a while and go out to lunch or to the movies or the zoo. We enjoyed our time together and they avoided the college application season stress.

 

My youngest did not want a tippy top school, he just wanted a good school with a challenging academic environment, and found more than one that welcomed him with ONLY a single ACT score and numerous community college credits.  He never took an AP nor was he penalized because we didn't turn over every single stone. Our approach worked for him. If he were wired differently and had his heart set on a different sort of school I certainly would have done things differently.

[Teachin'Mine]

Yes!

 

My oldest only had 1 DE class on his transcript and a couple of on-line courses when he applied. He also had 3 SAT 2 scores, 1 was pretty low, and 2 were good but not great. He also did have excellent ACT scores. I think it was the ACT scores that really helped him stand out.

 

As others have said, I feel like you just have to show some "outside" verification -- DE, SAT2, or AP, not necessarily all three.

 

My next one did have 2 AP scores and 2 APs in progress, but I think it was again his excellent SAT scores that made him stand out.

 

And I disagree with the sentiment expressed above that DE classes are better than APs -- I think it really depends upon the test, the student, and his/her goals. Both are good options.

 

HTH,

Brenda

 

 

Yes, absolutely, both can be good options. 

 

I wrote:  "I think that so much more is learned, beyond just the course content, taking actual college classes than high school AP classes.  YMMV."    It's just my opinion and I was referring only to college courses taken on a college campus with college students, not DE in high school taught by high school teachers as that wouldn't offer what I perceive to be some advantages over AP.

 

At dd's college most of the freshmen are very stressed about the transition from rigorous high school classes to rigorous college courses.  Likely most have taken many AP classes and tests.  DE offers the advantage for students of getting used to college level courses with the fast pace of semester long college classes.   Most DE students have learned how to navigate communications with professors, registration, buying textbooks, time management with a schedule with a lot of open time between classes, reading syllabi, etc..  In this respect, I do think that DE has a distinct advantage.

 

As far as course content, AP courses and teachers vary as do college courses and professors.  AP test scores have the advantage of being more standardized than college course grading.  AP tests also have the advantage of being accepted for credit more often than DE classes at top colleges, although this does vary by college.

 

As for the OP's question, it's absolutely possible to get into highly selective top colleges without having taken any AP courses or tests.  If I had a high school student who was aiming for highly competitive colleges and they couldn't or wouldn't be taking any college classes, then I would find a way to include AP tests whether through AP courses or self study.  The more rigorous high school is, the more prepared they'll be for rigorous college work.

[Hoggirl]

To elaborate on this a bit further: the reason we consciously chose not to do AP exams is that my DD stresses extremely about tests, and that having the validation of her work rest on one single exam would have created a level of anxiety that would have driven student and parents crazy. Seriously, high stakes tests can be detrimental to the mental well-being of a student with test anxiety.

I think we have all agreed that there are multiple paths. However, I will reiterate a point that I have made here before: sometimes the validation of one's work *does* rest on one single exam. Obviously, this isn't the case for all fields, and obviously, one often has the ability to re-take an exam, but that is usually not ideal. The bar exam is one example of a single test that carries a tremendous amount of weight. Indeed, in law school one's semester grade is most often determined solely by a final exam (good prep for that bar exam). You don't pass the bar, you don't practice law.

 

Back in the dark ages when I took the CPA exam, there was no calculator use, and one took all sections all at one time over a two and a half day period. That has since changed in that one can take and prep one section at a time. And, unlike law, one can do certain types of accounting without having a CPA license. Nevertheless, much rides on that test.

 

I cannot speak to other professions. I realize not all aspire to "professions," as they are often viewed as "vocational" and less notable/prestigious than pursuing academia. But there are MCATs, GREs, GMATs, etc., that carry weight in determining one's future - some in academia, some not. I feel reasonably certain that there is some sort of rigorous "testing" for engineering as well. One often only gets one "bite at the apple," so to speak. Often, the cumulative opportunity to demonstrate proficiency simply does not exist.

 

I do not think APs are the be all, end all. But there is absolutely no harm, and often great benefit, in being able to successfully take a single exam that carries significant weight.

 

That is probably an unpopular stance, but it is reality in many cases.

[Gwen in VA]

Kids are wired so differently.

 

My kids LOVED their AP classes. Without them, they would have really floundered -- they loved the rigor, they loved the challenge, and the loved the dsicipline involved in studying for a major exam. For them, not doing "standardized tests" would have NEGATIVELY impacted their high school experience!

 

I know that sounds weird, but I do have to speak up for the kids who have EC's out the whazoodle and still want serious academic rigor, not because they are total geeks who don't have a life but because they are kids who thrive on doing, learning, and achieving at a high level.

 

Could my kids have received the college acceptances and the experience they did by taking more classes at the local 4-year (a highly-ranked public LAC frequently refered to as a "public Ivy") -- yes, but at $1200 per class, taking classes at the 4-year college was considerably more expensive than AP's and didn't have anywhere near as much flexibility.

 

The awesome thing about homeschooling is that we can all choose different paths -- and some of those different paths even lead to the same place, like acceptance to a tippy-top school!

 

[Roadrunner]

I am guessing here that it probably depends on what classes one takes as dual enrollment. Maybe AP Calculus isn't as impressive as 2 years of math completed through dual enrollment that is beyond Calculus, but less impressive if it's an equivalent (similar to Algebra of Calculus) course from a community college. This is as much a question as a statement.

[MBM]

I am guessing here that it probably depends on what classes one takes as dual enrollment. Maybe AP Calculus isn't as impressive as 2 years of math completed through dual enrollment that is beyond Calculus, but less impressive if it's an equivalent (similar to Algebra of Calculus) course from a community college. This is as much a question as a statement.

 

If a student has finished calculus and two years of college math beyond calculus, I would suggest having that individual take the AP Calc BC exam if it's available. It doesn't hurt to have a little more verification to show what the student has learned, and the university might even allow some college credit for the AP exam if their score is good enough.

[flyingiguana]

Dual enrollment at a decent college/cc is better than AP.  It's more likely to get college credit (if the student took the appropriate class) and gives the admissions office info on whether the student can function well in a classroom environment.  Also, college classes, in general, tend to be harder to do well in than the AP test --  in other words, a student can do really well on an AP test without actually knowing all that much, if they're good at taking those sorts of tests.  It's a lot harder to get a decent grade in an actual class without having learned much.  So for admissions, the DE option is generally going to look better (unless the DE is at a college that is very, very sub-par)

 

AP is more rigorous than SAT subject tests.  If you can't do AP or dual enrollment, the subject tests might be useful.   Or they might not.  Kind of depends on the situation and the college.  Some colleges just don't care about them one way or the other.  They've never been high on my priority list for my kids, and my kids never mentioned taking them.  Their ps friends weren't doing it.  The colleges around here don't look for them at all.  I'm not sure they'd even look at the scores if they had them.

 

Some AP subjects are of more use than others, and which ones are going to be useful will depend on the college.

 

Some colleges give math placement tests that can place a student out of the first 2 semesters of calculus, even if the AP test or DE was never done in this subject.

 

Doing the AP test for one of the standard foreign languages might be a bit of a waste of time.  Many, many colleges now use the CAPE test for placement.  So if one knows the language fairly well, it's often possible to place out of the language requirement at college just by taking that test.  No AP needed.

 

The only reason I'd advise a foreign language test is if the student knows a language that won't be offered at the college of their choice and IF the college will allow them to place out of the foreign language solely on the basis of the AP (even there, many colleges won't).   OR, if the student is very strong in that language and wants another score to toss on their record for admissions.

 

I don't have any experience with getting financial aid at an "elite" school, but after having gone through the process twice now at good LACs (and from watching it from the outside over the years at the college where I work) I suspect that the top scholarship money goes to kids based solely on their ACT/SAT scores.  I know colleges SAY they don't do that, but the reality I've seen is that they do.  They "consider" other things, but it's all in the light of that ACT score.  They do interviews, but the interviewers tend to score the interviews based solely on the ACT score (I keep telling the college where I work that they shouldn't divulge that info to the interviewers until later, but they don't see the problem).  There's something about having that number in front of them that keeps screaming to rate a student high or low NO MATTER how smart or articulate they appear to be in the interview.  (Interestingly, the student interviewers our college uses tend not to be as swayed by that number, but most of the faculty ARE.  And don't even realize it.)

 

So my advice, if you need merit aid, is to spend most of your time working on bringing up that ACT/SAT score.  That's where the big bucks are (at the decent LACs).  Despite what the colleges tell you.

 

And my GUESS is that the merit aid at the elite schools isn't going to be based so much on how many APs a kid has, because everyone will have them. The kids I know who got into those schools had a modest (2?) number of AP tests, decent SAT scores, and some sort of "hook" -- they'd been published are were a top soccer player, for example.  Or they were legacies.  So while a few APs might be necessary (I DON'T KNOW THIS FOR A FACT), that's not enough to get a kid in.  There needs to be more.

 

Another fun fact -- everyone I'm currently dealing with at work who went to Harvard or wherever is a) either of average or below average intelligence/competence and b ) has an inflated opinion of their intelligence/competence.  So I sometimes wonder if sending kids to a place like Harvard is doing them a real disservice.  They don't actually understand that they're average, and they can't work to improve themselves.  (And why -- if going to a place like Harvard is supposed to open up jobs in places the rest of us could never dream of -- why are these people taking jobs at the college where I work?  It's hardly even on the map.  Are we just getting the complete dregs of the barrel?  And if so, is Harvard not at all concerned that their worst graduates are going out among the peons and making Harvard look bad?)

[flyingiguana]

I am guessing here that it probably depends on what classes one takes as dual enrollment. Maybe AP Calculus isn't as impressive as 2 years of math completed through dual enrollment that is beyond Calculus, but less impressive if it's an equivalent (similar to Algebra of Calculus) course from a community college. This is as much a question as a statement.

 

My insider view tells me that 2 semesters of DE calc at a half-way decent cc are way more impressive than the AP Calc BC exam.  It is also a lot more likely to get the student college credit.

 

AP is looked at a bit askance -- mostly by professors who have seen a lot of top scoring AP calc students (and physics and chem....) do really bad in subsequent courses.

 

Some kids (many?) do AP and go on to do well in later classes.  But those aren't the disasters that professors remember.  And if there are AP disasters at small colleges, even the admissions/financial aid people are going to hear about it.  So they also will be less impressed with AP than they are by DE.

 

[flyingiguana]

Also, if you're going to do AP at a local high school, you might want to consider how many kids are taking those classes.  Our local high school is now requiring ALL students to take the APUSH exam (and class).  The quality of teaching has slipped precipitously because they've had to suddenly open up a lot of classes -- taught by teachers who have never taught AP before.

 

Course, back when I was in high school, the AP classes tended to get taught by the teachers who had the highest seniority -- and many of them were just looking to pad their schedule with classes that would not present discipline difficulties.  They had no actual interest in teaching the class.

 

I think my eldest was a lot better off self-studying for the AP exams she took than trying to do it through the local high school.  Even before APUSH was a universal there, the kids were finding they all had to self study anyway, because the teachers were idiots. 

 

I know there must be good AP teachers out there -- because I've used their websites.  But they aren't at our local schools.

[Lynn in Caribbean]

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses.  I realized that I am freaking out just a little bit over my dd’s senior year.  As we have been going through the common app, creating her transcript, etc. I have been second-guessing every decision I ever made about her education.  Did I completely screw up her chances of admission by neglecting “x†– did we do enough of “y†– on and on I go. 

 

When I mentioned some of these anxieties to my dd – should we have done more of these classes, or those tests over the years – she just looked at me and said, “If we had done all that, then what would be the point of homeschooling?†

 

For her, the point of homeschooling has been family relationships and having a margin of time in her life to do creative things, hang out with her kid sister, write, draw, go hiking…She is very strong in all subject areas, and a gifted writer, but she has no desire to be super-competitive academically.  Which means, really, that if she were to get into a super-selective school and be surrounded by super-competitive people, she would most likely be miserable.  She does want to go to a good school with a solid reputation and be challenged, but does not have the desire to do the extras for selective applications.

 

So, anyways, thanks for answering my question about the AP’s.  DE classes were a better fit for her all along, and that is what we did.  So my question was really just about me feeling completely panicked and second-guessing everything :)   Does the common app do this to everybody?? 

 

 

[JennW in SoCal]

 

When I mentioned some of these anxieties to my dd – should we have done more of these classes, or those tests over the years – she just looked at me and said, “If we had done all that, then what would be the point of homeschooling?†

 

For her, the point of homeschooling has been family relationships and having a margin of time in her life to do creative things, hang out with her kid sister, write, draw, go hiking…She is very strong in all subject areas, and a gifted writer, but she has no desire to be super-competitive academically.  Which means, really, that if she were to get into a super-selective school and be surrounded by super-competitive people, she would most likely be miserable.  She does want to go to a good school with a solid reputation and be challenged, but does not have the desire to do the extras for selective applications.

 

Your dd is very wise and will no doubt be warmly welcomed at some good schools.

 

So, anyways, thanks for answering my question about the AP’s.  DE classes were a better fit for her all along, and that is what we did.  So my question was really just about me feeling completely panicked and second-guessing everything  :)   Does the common app do this to everybody?? 

 

And oh my, yes. The common app does this to everybody!  :D   We homeschool moms are really good at second guessing ourselves, but the common app and the admissions process in general just takes it to the extreme!  

[Teachin'Mine]

Yes, the common app and the whole application process and results will have you second guessing everything you've done for the past 12 years!!! 

 

I tend to share my failures, or perceived failures, freely so anyone experiencing the same doesn't feel alone.   When it comes time for results after the agonizing application process, you'll commiserate with the other moms and probably continue to second guess.  But then your student will go to college.  And you'll realize that if you had taken time out to do x, y and z, then your student wouldn't have had time to do a, b and c which were the priorities anyway and while d, e and f weren't even in the original plan, they were opportunities which presented themselves to the student and were able to be done because x, y and z were not priorities.  Kwim?

 

Blinders might be helpful when going through the process.   Let your student choose their priorities because the reality is that they can't do it all and they need to choose their own path.  Apply to a broad selection of schools and the ones who accept them and recognize their accomplishments are likely exactly the ones they should be attending anyway.  And likely any number of them will provide them with an awesome education.  And if they arrive at their destination certain they made the right choice, and grateful to be there, then does it really matter if you should have checked the other box or at least considered doing y?

 

Dd took extensive DE courses at a community college without any expectation of credits transferring or advanced placement, and has placed out of the calculus sequence.  As Gwen said so beautifully, there are many paths to their goals.

 

[plansrme]

Pardon me while I rant, and this is not necessarily directed at anyone on this board, but I feel compelled to reiterate that all DE is not created equal.  For example, I have a neighbor who is all excited because her son (who goes to the same B&M high school as my oldest daughter) is going to take precalculus through DE next year, at a local third-tier four-year university.  His high school, however, offers the following courses after precalculus:  AP Calculus AB, AP Calculus BC, Calc II (post-AP only; available through online DE with Georgia Tech); Calc III (same arrangement as Calc II); multivariable calculus for students who do not get into Calc II/III (admission pretty  much requires a 5 on the AP Calc BC exam); and a regular, non-AP calculus course.  Do I think a college is going to be impressed by a student who skips all of these in favor of a precalculus class at a four-year school with an average ACT in the low 20s?  Heck, no.  Is it better than a good high school class?  Not at this high school.  Is it a good way to get HS-level coursework for homeschoolers?  Sure.  BUT there are two very different goals.  One is providing rigorous high school work at home; another is impressing the admissions officers at competitive colleges.  DE can do both, but its effectiveness is going to depend, in either case, on the caliber of the school and the actual coursework being taken.  I seriously doubt that there are many two-year colleges or even third-tier four-year schools that are going to impress the admissions office of a selective school, and the student who shows up with a passel of CC credits and mediocre SAT scores is probably not going to get the nod.  

 

So the moral of this little tale is that not all DE is created equally.  AP tests, on the other hand, pretty much are, and that is their strength.  I have a love-hate relationship with APs, but they probably do provide more relevant data for admissions counsellors than a handful of DE classes at Chattahoochee Technical College would (that is not the college my neighbor's son is attending for precalc, but it is an actual two-year school in our vicinity that attracts a number of homeschoolers and others eligible for DE every year).  So if admission to a competitive college is your goal, I would limit DE to the best four-year college available and not try to rack up DE credits at your equivalent of Chattahoochee Tech just for the sake of showing readiness for college-level work.  I have seen what passes for college level work at some of those two-year schools, and it is hardly all that and a bag of chips.

 

Rant over.  Please carry on.

[flyingiguana]

I didn't panic -- but I did plan to do way more in high school than my kids actually did.  Because we discovered that it takes a lot of time to do just a few things well.

 

And it's way more important to do the things that are meaningful to the student and may provide them direction in life than it is to load up on a lot of DE or AP if those are in subjects that the student isn't interested in, or if they're taught in ways that don't help the students long term goals.  The former will serve them throughout their lives.  The latter on their transcript may or may not get them into a selective school that they may or may not derive much benefit from attending over some other perfectly adequate college (or from going into something else that doesn't involve college).

 

We've tended to live in the moment and not worry about getting in to college.  For 2 kids this has worked out fine.  But they have always been more interested in learning than prestige -- and have recognized that these are often not the same thing.

 

 

[Teachin'Mine]

Pardon me while I rant, and this is not necessarily directed at anyone on this board, but I feel compelled to reiterate that all DE is not created equal.  For example, I have a neighbor who is all excited because her son (who goes to the same B&M high school as my oldest daughter) is going to take precalculus through DE next year, at a local third-tier four-year university.  His high school, however, offers the following courses after precalculus:  AP Calculus AB, AP Calculus BC, Calc II (post-AP only; available through online DE with Georgia Tech); Calc III (same arrangement as Calc II); multivariable calculus for students who do not get into Calc II/III (admission pretty  much requires a 5 on the AP Calc BC exam); and a regular, non-AP calculus course.  Do I think a college is going to be impressed by a student who skips all of these in favor of a precalculus class at a four-year school with an average ACT in the low 20s?  Heck, no.  Is it better than a good high school class?  Not at this high school.  Is it a good way to get HS-level coursework for homeschoolers?  Sure.  BUT there are two very different goals.  One is providing rigorous high school work at home; another is impressing the admissions officers at competitive colleges.  DE can do both, but its effectiveness is going to depend, in either case, on the caliber of the school and the actual coursework being taken.  I seriously doubt that there are many two-year colleges or even third-tier four-year schools that are going to impress the admissions office of a selective school, and the student who shows up with a passel of CC credits and mediocre SAT scores is probably not going to get the nod.  

 

So the moral of this little tale is that not all DE is created equally.  AP tests, on the other hand, pretty much are, and that is their strength.  I have a love-hate relationship with APs, but they probably do provide more relevant data for admissions counsellors than a handful of DE classes at Chattahoochee Technical College would (that is not the college my neighbor's son is attending for precalc, but it is an actual two-year school in our vicinity that attracts a number of homeschoolers and others eligible for DE every year).  So if admission to a competitive college is your goal, I would limit DE to the best four-year college available and not try to rack up DE credits at your equivalent of Chattahoochee Tech just for the sake of showing readiness for college-level work.  I have seen what passes for college level work at some of those two-year schools, and it is hardly all that and a bag of chips.

 

Rant over.  Please carry on.

 

 

Plansme most of us are not considering what the local high school offers as we homeschool.  Obviously you have a great high school as that is one of the most impressive lists of advanced math courses I've seen available at a high school.  I don't think anyone here has compared taking a precalculus course at a college to taking Calculus III online DE at Georgia Tech.  Obviously when it comes to rigor, there is no comparison.

 

I know you said your comments weren't directed at anyone in particular, but as I mentioned that my daughter took extensive courses at community college, we certainly fit your description.   However she did not take the classes to "try to rack up DE credits at [our] equivalent of Chattahoochee Tech just for the sake of showing readiness for college-level work."  She took a full load of courses because she has many interests and wanted to take full advantage of the excellent courses and professors available to her.  

 

The two year colleges do not impress admissions.  It's the students who attend and what they do with their opportunity which does impress them.   My daughter's accomplishments could not be seen as anything less than impressive by someone in higher education.  Again, there are many roads.   Obviously you have chosen a different path.

 

I do agree with your comment that not all DE is equal. 

 

Also want to add that the student taking precalculus at the "lesser" college is learning a lot in addition to the math, as I mentioned in a post above.  Unless this student is a spring semester high school senior, they'll likely be continuing to calculus and other advanced math courses which your high school may or may not provide.  And while online courses can be very good, obviously Georgia Tech's math would be rigorous, it's still not the same as an on campus class.  Any study groups would be with other high school students only, they might email the professor, but they wouldn't be visiting during office hours, etc..  Still it's the rare school that offers any option for Calc III.  It's a substantial percentage of public high schools in the US which do not offer anything beyond pre-calculus.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

is there any case where SAT Subject tests are more considered than APs? 

I chose to have my son go the AP way (he scored a 4 in Chemistry, and a 5 in Physics, and College Board *lost* his Computer Science one) instead of Sat Subject Tests, under the belief that APs are more demanding (first year college instead of high school).

However all local colleges require Subject Tests and don't mention APs anymore!

[regentrude]

is there any case where SAT Subject tests are more considered than APs? 

I chose to have my son go the AP way (he scored a 4 in Chemistry, and a 5 in Physics, and College Board *lost* his Computer Science one) instead of Sat Subject Tests, under the belief that APs are more demanding (first year college instead of high school).

However all local colleges require Subject Tests and don't mention APs anymore!

 

AP tests are more demanding, but quite a few universities specifically want their applicants to have taken a certain number of SAT2 exams and will not accept AP scores as a substitute. We encountered several such schools with specific requirements of 2 or 3 subject SAT2s, and specific requirements that one had to be math and one had to be a science. Those were required from all applicants, not just homeschoolers.

 

If I had to speculate about the reasoning behind this, my guess would be it is that SAT2s test high school level material and thus should be something ALL applicants have a chance to do, whereas AP tests test college level material and the availability of AP courses varies widely from school to school. So, in some sense using SAT2s as a measure instead of APs might be a way of leveling the playing field and not penalizing students whose high schools simply do not offer AP level coursework.

(I agree that they could still find a way to use AP scores in lieu of SAT2s).

[Matryoshka]

 

 

I do agree with your comment that not all DE is equal.

 

Yeah, did you see my post about the Honors Freshman Comp course my dd signed up as DE for that's using a book called I Am a Magical Teenage Princess as its reading material? (we'll be dumping that in favor of homemade English this year thankyouverymuch)  She's reading much more complicated stuff in her AP Spanish class (García Márquez, week 1), and in a foreign language to boot...

 

Most of the stuff at our local CC, from what I've seen, is not equivalent to AP or sometimes even honors level high school work.  Even their highest level of Spanish wouldn't be reading García Márquez either, I can assure you.  I think I'll be using it mostly for electives (like dd's taking Cultural Anthropology this year).  I am considering it for Physics, because she can get labs there. 

[Matryoshka]

AP tests are more demanding, but quite a few universities specifically want their applicants to have taken a certain number of SAT2 exams and will not accept AP scores as a substitute. We encountered several such schools with specific requirements of 2 or 3 subject SAT2s, and specific requirements that one had to be math and one had to be a science. Those were required from all applicants, not just homeschoolers.

 

You don't happen to know after what level of math kids should take the SAT2 math exams  - I know there are two levels, and I get confused about which to have them take when (is the Level 1 test even worth it?...)

 

[plansrme]

Plansme most of us are not considering what the local high school offers as we homeschool.  Obviously you have a great high school as that is one of the most impressive lists of advanced math courses I've seen available at a high school.  I don't think anyone here has compared taking a precalculus course at a college to taking Calculus III online DE at Georgia Tech.  Obviously when it comes to rigor, there is no comparison.

 

I know you said your comments weren't directed at anyone in particular, but as I mentioned that my daughter took extensive courses at community college, we certainly fit your description.   However she did not take the classes to "try to rack up DE credits at [our] equivalent of Chattahoochee Tech just for the sake of showing readiness for college-level work."  She took a full load of courses because she has many interests and wanted to take full advantage of the excellent courses and professors available to her.  

 

The two year colleges do not impress admissions.  It's the students who attend and what they do with their opportunity which does impress them.   My daughter's accomplishments could not be seen as anything less than impressive by someone in higher education.  Again, there are many roads.   Obviously you have chosen a different path.

 

I do agree with your comment that not all DE is equal. 

 

Also want to add that the student taking precalculus at the "lesser" college is learning a lot in addition to the math, as I mentioned in a post above.  Unless this student is a spring semester high school senior, they'll likely be continuing to calculus and other advanced math courses which your high school may or may not provide.  And while online courses can be very good, obviously Georgia Tech's math would be rigorous, it's still not the same as an on campus class.  Any study groups would be with other high school students only, they might email the professor, but they wouldn't be visiting during office hours, etc..  Still it's the rare school that offers any option for Calc III.  It's a substantial percentage of public high schools in the US which do not offer anything beyond pre-calculus.

 

I don't actually think we disagree on anything, so I hope you were not offended by my post.  My use of my neighbor as an example may have muddied my point somewhat, which was merely that a lot of schools through which DE is available are not going to provide the rigor that an AP would.  If the choice is DE versus AP, and the goal is a selective college, DE is not automatically the better choice.  It may be a fine choice; but it is not better just because the provider has "college" in its name.  

[Teachin'Mine]

Yeah, did you see my post about the Honors Freshman Comp course my dd signed up as DE for that's using a book called I Am a Magical Teenage Princess as its reading material? (we'll be dumping that in favor of homemade English this year thankyouverymuch)  She's reading much more complicated stuff in her AP Spanish class (García Márquez, week 1), and in a foreign language to boot...

 

Most of the stuff at our local CC, from what I've seen, is not equivalent to AP or sometimes even honors level high school work.  Even their highest level of Spanish wouldn't be reading García Márquez either, I can assure you.  I think I'll be using it mostly for electives (like dd's taking Cultural Anthropology this year).  I am considering it for Physics, because she can get labs there. 

 

Yes I posted on your thread about the class.  I think your situation is unusual in that the usual honors professor isn't available for the class.  I also think that you're confusing a college writing class with a high school English class.  The college course focuses primarily on writing and Comp I has a different focus from Comp II, whereas the high school English class incorporates both writing and literature.  A college student interested in literature will take separate literature classes.  The readings used in a Comp I class are mainly to provide material for the student to write about.  A good professor tries to find readings which interest the students, not necessarily the most intellectual or advanced reading.

 

I wouldn't make all your decisions on DE based on the material used for this one class, especially without having even completed the course.   Personally I would try another honors course and then re-evaluate your perceptions.  Yes, physics is a great class to take with all the great lab equipment.

[regentrude]

You don't happen to know after what level of math kids should take the SAT2 math exams  - I know there are two levels, and I get confused about which to have them take when (is the Level 1 test even worth it?...)

 

 

Your question is answered here:

http://sat.collegeboard.org/practice/sat-subject-test-preparation/mathematics-level-1

 

The SAT Math 1 tests less material, but has a brutal curve. All advice I heard was to forgo this one and take Math 2 instead which covers more advanced material, but has a more forgiving curve.

[Matryoshka]

Your question is answered here:

http://sat.collegeboard.org/practice/sat-subject-test-preparation/mathematics-level-1

 

The SAT Math 1 tests less material, but has a brutal curve. All advice I heard was to forgo this one and take Math 2 instead which covers more advanced material, but has a more forgiving curve.

 

So would a kid who's only getting through PreCalc by senior year be stuck taking the Level 1 test, or could she try for the Level 2 at the last minute (like spring of senior year)?  Or is that too late for admissions?

 

[Kathy in Richmond]

is there any case where SAT Subject tests are more considered than APs? 

I chose to have my son go the AP way (he scored a 4 in Chemistry, and a 5 in Physics, and College Board *lost* his Computer Science one) instead of Sat Subject Tests, under the belief that APs are more demanding (first year college instead of high school).

However all local colleges require Subject Tests and don't mention APs anymore!

 

As regentrude said, some US colleges require SAT 2's of all applicants, and those admissions committees are not likely to make an exception even in the case of corresponding AP scores.

 

Unlike SAT 2 scores, AP scores aren't very finely tuned, which might explain their reasoning. A score of 5 in some AP subjects can mean anything from getting approximately 65% of the exam questions correct all the way up to a perfect 100%. This might also explain why college profs see mixed results from students allowed to skip intro coursework based on high AP scores.

 

I think that grading AP exams on a % basis would be more meaningful & useful to colleges. :)

[MBM]

You don't happen to know after what level of math kids should take the SAT2 math exams  - I know there are two levels, and I get confused about which to have them take when (is the Level 1 test even worth it?...)

 

 

IIRC, the SAT II subject test is usually taken after precalc. It's not a difficult test but your child might want to take a practice test just to see what it's like.

[Teachin'Mine]

Matroyska, I was curious about the assigned book and googled.  I found this link  http://webs.wichita.edu/?u=DeptEnglish&p=/Newsletters/2012_Sept/

 

If you scroll down to the bottom, there's this:

 

Former Student Successes:

Recent MFA graduate Luke Geddes, currently pursuing his Ph.D. in Creative Writing at the University of Cincinnati, was in town this summer to promote his first story collection, I am a Magical Teenage Princess (Chomu Press).  Luke read to a packed house at Watermark Books and then led the parade to the Donut Whole and then the Alibi Room.

 

 

The content probably strongly appeals to college students (and makes for fun writing assignments), but not necessarily to homeschooling parents.  It's good that you found out that there was content you weren't comfortable with for your students ahead of time.

[Teachin'Mine]

As regentrude said, some US colleges require SAT 2's of all applicants, and those admissions committees are not likely to make an exception even in the case of corresponding AP scores.

 

Unlike SAT 2 scores, AP scores aren't very finely tuned, which might explain their reasoning. A score of 5 in some AP subjects can mean anything from getting approximately 65% of the exam questions correct all the way up to a perfect 100%. This might also explain why college profs see mixed results from students allowed to skip intro coursework based on high AP scores.

 

I think that grading AP exams on a % basis would be more meaningful & useful to colleges. :)

 

And then watch how many high schools drop their AP programs.  lol

[Matryoshka]

Matroyska, I was curious about the assigned book and googled.  I found this link  http://webs.wichita.edu/?u=DeptEnglish&p=/Newsletters/2012_Sept/

 

If you scroll down to the bottom, there's this:

 

Former Student Successes:

Recent MFA graduate Luke Geddes, currently pursuing his Ph.D. in Creative Writing at the University of Cincinnati, was in town this summer to promote his first story collection, I am a Magical Teenage Princess (Chomu Press).  Luke read to a packed house at Watermark Books and then led the parade to the Donut Whole and then the Alibi Room.

 

 

The content probably strongly appeals to college students (and makes for fun writing assignments), but not necessarily to homeschooling parents.  It's good that you found out that there was content you weren't comfortable with for your students ahead of time.

 

I'm actually not even that prudish on the content (although... really??)... but I'm just not looking for "fun" writing assignments in an Honors level college writing course - I rather wanted rigorous academic content... silly me

 

[MBM]

So would a kid who's only getting through PreCalc by senior year be stuck taking the Level 1 test, or could she try for the Level 2 at the last minute (like spring of senior year)?  Or is that too late for admissions?
 

 

Aim to finish taking the SAT subject tests before applying to colleges which is usually November 1st or so for early admission/early decision and January 1st or so for regular decision. (At least one university I know of has an October 15 early admission, I believe, just so you know.) You'll put the SAT subject test scores on the Common App.

 

Your daughter could take both SAT I and SAT II in math and just see how she does. You get to choose which test scores to submit to colleges. 

 

ETA: Matryoshka, here is a list of all of the universities that are members of the Common Application. Not all universities belong and if you apply to one, you will use that school's own application. At the following website, you can easily look up admissions deadlines and other information such as application fees, if the school wants the writing portion of the SAT or ACT test, whether a college wants a writing supplement specifically for that particular college, etc. It can be helpful, but my son's high school recommends that applicants double-check all deadlines.

 

It won't let me link the actual site, but you can get there by clicking on "Member Colleges" at the top and then clicking on "Application Requirements."

 

https://www.commonapp.org/Login

 

[regentrude]

So would a kid who's only getting through PreCalc by senior year be stuck taking the Level 1 test, or could she try for the Level 2 at the last minute (like spring of senior year)?  Or is that too late for admissions?

 

Spring of senior year is too late. Even fall of senior year may be too late in some cases when schools have very early application deadlines (some of DD's colleges had  regular deadlines late October/early November). Most had deadlines by the end of the year. So, any spring exam would be too late.\

Now, other schools accept applications until late in the spring. From what I have seen, these tend to be the less selective schools where you would not need an SAT2 anyway.

[Hoggirl]

So my advice, if you need merit aid, is to spend most of your time working on bringing up that ACT/SAT score. That's where the big bucks are (at the decent LACs). Despite what the colleges tell you.

 

 

I am not sure I agree with this. However, I am not sure what you mean by "decent LACs." Certainly there are schools that have published, cut-and-dry charts where it is obvious that higher test scores equate to more merit money. I think for top schools that do offer merit money, the review is much more holistic. At least this was our experience at one school - Rice. Ds was accepted with significant merit money there, but his classmate with an identical ACT score and virtually identical courses and grades was outright rejected. Obviously, I am not privy to this child's essays, but I do know that he had VERY few ECs on his application. He is just a kid with high test scores, good grades, and not much else. Rice is not an LAC, however.

 

My ds only applied to one LAC - a top 10. They do offer merit, though not to many. His scores were in the top 25th percentile, but he wasn't even accepted - waitlisted.

 

The only experience I can give from what I would consider to be a "decent LAC" (my alma mater - Hendrix College) also confirms that high test scores don't necessarily drive merit money. There were probably four or five kids from ds's school that applied for the competitive eight top merit awards there. The one recipient did NOT have the highest test scores of the bunch.

 

I am not trying to be contrary :) I am sharing that our experiences were different. I think the answer to most college admissions and chances for merit questions is "it depends." Certainly a threshold score is going to be necessary to get into a read pile and then again perhaps into a consideration for merit $ pile, but that alone is not going to be enough.

[Teachin'Mine]

Matroyska, your daughter can start preparing now for the SAT II math level I.   It would take a huge effort, IMO, to self study all she'd need in precalculus now for the Level II.  Then again, while some state that they require level II scores, even MIT says that either level I or II is fine.   As Regentrude said, spring is too late for admissions purposes.

 

As for schools requiring SAT II scores, many have the requirement that it's either the SAT with SAT II  OR the ACT.   If she hasn't tried the ACT yet, I would recommend she do that.  Again practice is recommended especially for the science section as it's unique.  There are colleges which require SAT IIs even if the ACT is taken, but all it takes is a call or email from your student to see if this is flexible. 

[MBM]

Last year 22 seniors at my son's high school got perfect ACT scores. It probably helped some get scholarship money but I don't know how much.

 

My son has been offered decent scholarship money by one university for his scores on a math contest. It's his #2 school as of yet. Every year, someone at his high school or two others, competes for a 4-year full-ride to that same university. Difficulty of courses, GPA, test scores and the obligatory essay all factor in to who gets the scholarship. We might have to make that his #1 choice if he can get the full-ride!

[regentrude]

As for schools requiring SAT II scores, many have the requirement that it's either the SAT with SAT II  OR the ACT.   If she hasn't tried the ACT yet, I would recommend she do that.  Again practice is recommended especially for the science section as it's unique.  There are colleges which require SAT IIs even if the ACT is taken, but all it takes is a call or email from your student to see if this is flexible. 

 

I have seen the bolded, but always in connection with the stipulation that it had to be the ACT with the (normally optional) essay!

So, if you want to use the ACT, make sure your student signs up for the writing portion as well.

[MBM]

I think that grading AP exams on a % basis would be more meaningful & useful to colleges. :)

 

Next year the AP people can do this but only after my stubborn, complaining child takes the AP Latin exam. He is going to need a lot of help to get a 5 so that his language requirement will be fulfilled. LOL.  :)

[Teachin'Mine]

Thank you Regentrude!  Yes - ACT with writing!!

[8filltheheart]

I'm pretty sure that Case's merit $$ is heavily dependent upon test scores.   In reading CC last year, it seemed that the merit awards seemed to follow certain score ranges.  I never saw anything published and I do not know what other factors were weighed amg those who were awarded $$ and who weren't.  (I don't think it is cut and dried like everyone who has scores in the XXXX and above range receives $YYYYYY, but it definitely seemed like it was those who received $YYYYY had scores at certain thresholds.)   

 

Anyway, my pt is that it may not be as simple as a direct correlation but definitely related.

[Hoggirl]

I'm pretty sure that Case's merit $$ is heavily dependent upon test scores. In reading CC last year, it seemed that the merit awards seemed to follow certain score ranges. I never saw anything published and I do not know what other factors were weighed amg those who were awarded $$ and who weren't. (I don't think it is cut and dried like everyone who has scores in the XXXX and above range receives $YYYYYY, but it definitely seemed like it was those who received $YYYYY had scores at certain thresholds.)

 

Anyway, my pt is that it may not be as simple as a direct correlation but definitely related.

I think this is true at Hendrix as well. If you have a certain score, you are most likely going to receive the maximum amount they give for merit (outside of their competitive merit scholarship process). But, once you have hit that score, scoring higher isn't going to get you any more money. Most private schools have a fixed top amount of merit $ that they will give. As an example, Ds and a friend were both accepted to the University of Denver. They received the exact same amount of merit $ even though her ACT score was four or five points lower than his. Once you hit a certain score you maxed out on merit money.

[Caroline]

To add to your rant, if I'm guessing said college correctly...

 

I have taught calculus at said uni and at the bottom high school in the area. We are talking less than 50% graduation rate, the vast majority of people are scared to be anywhere near it. I guarantee my AP Calculus high school course is a heck of a lot more rigorous than the college one. And, students who have taken the high school course do much better in the higher level math classes at GT than the transfers from the other uni.

 

In response to Teachin' Mine, most of the GT DE students in the ATL area do spend time on campus and working and studying with the college students.

 

Pardon me while I rant, and this is not necessarily directed at anyone on this board, but I feel compelled to reiterate that all DE is not created equal. For example, I have a neighbor who is all excited because her son (who goes to the same B&M high school as my oldest daughter) is going to take precalculus through DE next year, at a local third-tier four-year university. His high school, however, offers the following courses after precalculus: AP Calculus AB, AP Calculus BC, Calc II (post-AP only; available through online DE with Georgia Tech); Calc III (same arrangement as Calc II); multivariable calculus for students who do not get into Calc II/III (admission pretty much requires a 5 on the AP Calc BC exam); and a regular, non-AP calculus course. Do I think a college is going to be impressed by a student who skips all of these in favor of a precalculus class at a four-year school with an average ACT in the low 20s? Heck, no. Is it better than a good high school class? Not at this high school. Is it a good way to get HS-level coursework for homeschoolers? Sure. BUT there are two very different goals. One is providing rigorous high school work at home; another is impressing the admissions officers at competitive colleges. DE can do both, but its effectiveness is going to depend, in either case, on the caliber of the school and the actual coursework being taken. I seriously doubt that there are many two-year colleges or even third-tier four-year schools that are going to impress the admissions office of a selective school, and the student who shows up with a passel of CC credits and mediocre SAT scores is probably not going to get the nod.

 

So the moral of this little tale is that not all DE is created equally. AP tests, on the other hand, pretty much are, and that is their strength. I have a love-hate relationship with APs, but they probably do provide more relevant data for admissions counsellors than a handful of DE classes at Chattahoochee Technical College would (that is not the college my neighbor's son is attending for precalc, but it is an actual two-year school in our vicinity that attracts a number of homeschoolers and others eligible for DE every year). So if admission to a competitive college is your goal, I would limit DE to the best four-year college available and not try to rack up DE credits at your equivalent of Chattahoochee Tech just for the sake of showing readiness for college-level work. I have seen what passes for college level work at some of those two-year schools, and it is hardly all that and a bag of chips.

 

Rant over. Please carry on.

[J-rap]

I didn't read all of the replies, so I realize the conversation may have evolved.  But back to the OP, my kids mostly did not take AP courses, with the exception of my son (who studied on his own and then took AP tests).  My kids had a very well-rounded education, solid, did well, and had lots of extra-curriculars and interesting/unique experiences.  They didn't have the advanced courses, duel-enrollment, or AP on their transcripts.  They all got into very solid, respected, private regional universities with top scholarships.