Consequences for disrespect

[Storygirl]

There are different types of ADHD, and different children will show different symptoms. Also, sensory processing issues have many associated behaviors that cross over with ADHD -- the impulsivity and difficulty to handle frustration, as well as the release after expressing anger could all be due to SPD. Only an expert can tell you for sure. That's why you might benefit from having him evaluated for both.

[Storygirl]

I just wrote some lengthy posts on another thread this weekend that express some things I'd like to say to you . Instead of trying to recreate them, I'll just cut and paste:

 

 

 

 

Looking back, I can see some of what my parents did wrong. My brother was so hard to manage that he only heard scolding words from my mother. She didn't deliberately give him compliments or positive messages. Meanwhile, my sister and I were fairly obedient and much easier to parent and didn't get yelled at the way my brother did. So he resented us. And he grew up with a great animosity toward my mother that continued into adulthood. I'm convinced now that he didn't feel loved by her. I know for a fact that he was convinced that she preferred the girls.

 

So building a positive relationship with my boys needs to be important. I can't spend all my time rebuking them and fail to give them positive messages. This is hard for me, because they require so much correction!!! It has to be a priority though, because I don't want them to grow up resenting me. I need to be more deliberate about encouraging and praising and appreciating them and not coming down so hard on them so much of the time. Sigh. It's hard. And I have this emotional baggage from my childhood with my brother -- not to mention all of the parental modeling from my parents to work against --  that makes it more challenging.

 

If I could go back to when my boys were smaller, I would be sure to balance out all of the corrections with lots more praise and affection and relationship bonding times. I know I didn't do enough of it, but I still have time to rectify that.

 

You might not struggle in this same way, but I just thought I'd share a bit of my story in case it might help.

 

 

So here is what our psychologist taught me about interacting with DS. I admit that this technique is very hard and I have totally not mastered it, because it is kind of the opposite of how I usually parent and how my parents behaved:

 

Ignore the bad behavior. Praise the good.

 

I of course had heard this before. It's not a new idea. Sounds totally easy. Doing it is very very hard. Our psych's explanation helped me understand how to put it into practice.

 

First a bit of explanation. Because when my children are misbehaving, I find it super hard to find something good to comment on at that moment. In fact, I'm terrible at it. But here is an example. Let's say son is at the school table scowling and complaining about his work. Ignore that. Instead say, "You did a really great job figuring out that story problem. That was a hard one." Or "Thanks for sitting quietly while I'm talking to your sister." Or something else. It can be something little. It can be totally unrelated to what he is doing wrong. You don't need to give false or insincere praise, and you might have to think hard to come up with something to say. Sorry my example is school related; it can apply to ordinary life as well.

 

The idea behind it: The child may be acting out to get attention from the parent. If you respond to the negative behavior, you are actually giving them the attention that they want and therefore reinforcing the bad behavior and making it more likely to reoccur. They learn that acting up gets attention from Mom. So do not "reward" the bad behavior with your attention. Instead show the child that the way to gain attention from you is for them to do positive things.

 

This does not mean that you never address the bad behavior. But it helps avoid that cycle where every interaction with the child is one of correction. And it helps to balance out what the child hears from you, so that they don't continually get the message, "Mom thinks I'm a bad kid."  I've heard it said that they should hear ten positives for every negative comment. So hard for me. Unfortunately, being critical comes easily for me.

 

Here is my struggle. When I try to ignore the bad behavior, I tend not to substitute praising the good. So I end up ignoring the child, which is not the message that I want to send. I don't want the child to feel ignored. I want to give him plenty of positive attention.

 

At the homeschool convention this summer I listened to a speaker who spoke for an hour on what he saw as a looming problem in the homeschooling community: children who are homeschooled who turn their hearts away from their parents when they are grown. His theory is that it is due to overly critical parents who did not receive positive praise and attention from their own parents when they were growing up (totally me), so they are perpetuating a cycle. Especially for homeschool moms who spend all their days with their children and are worn down by dealing with difficult behavior without having their own needs met -- these moms have a harder time drawing on personal resources to give out positive, encouraging things to their children. I had tears streaming down my face for an hour and was emotionally shaken for the rest of the day. My other son (the younger one, who does not have ADHD) has a hard heart toward me already, and he is only nine. I'm utterly heartbroken over it. I know it is because I am overly critical and not encouraging enough.

 

I am in the thick of working this out right now in our family, so I'm just trying to offer up the things that I am learning. They may not even apply to others who are reading this thread, but I thought it might be helpful to some for me to share.  I have not mastered any of these new ways of parenting, but I do believe it is of vital importance that I do. And it starts with me changing myself, not with expecting the child to change (which is what my parenting has always been geared toward previously).

 

[Farrar]

I've worked with a lot of ADHD middle schoolers...  The "attention deficit" label is really misleading.  Many of these kids have an abundance of attention, but only for certain things or they focus too much when they're doing their work and struggle to come out of it when it's time to move on and transition.  I found that most of them loved to be read aloud to (it was often the non-ADHD kids in my class who found that annoying by middle school).  Anyway, just seconding that what you're seeing could be part of a picture of ADHD.  And...  all the more reason to get a good evaluation and find a good psychologist.

[LucyStoner]

I've worked with a lot of ADHD middle schoolers... The "attention deficit" label is really misleading. Many of these kids have an abundance of attention, but only for certain things or they focus too much when they're doing their work and struggle to come out of it when it's time to move on and transition. I found that most of them loved to be read aloud to (it was often the non-ADHD kids in my class who found that annoying by middle school). Anyway, just seconding that what you're seeing could be part of a picture of ADHD. And... all the more reason to get a good evaluation and find a good psychologist.

Exactly. My husband has ADD. He has an abundance of focus on a small number of things. He can't shift between things well and needs to set himself routines to navigate through things the rest of us take for granted.

 

He was apparently a very explosive, very temperamental child. He's a peach now. It can get better.

[Corraleno]

Ok, wow! I never thought about it this way before. Every time I thought about ADHD I just thought about frazzled parents with rambunctious little boys who can't sit still in school for 6 hours at a time, so they drug them. My DS can focus. He can concentrate and sit still.

 

The attention issues are only one component of ADHD. An 11 yo boy who is high energy, impulsive, extremely argumentative, deliberately provokes conflict, and yet seeks affection and connection when he's calm, is a classic ADD/SPD profile. Most kids with ADD/SPD have no trouble sitting still and/or focusing when their nervous systems are calm and functioning normally. The problem is that when their nervous systems are overloaded, for whatever reason, the kids have no way to deal with it. Have you ever been so anxious and agitated that you just felt like you wanted to crawl out of your own skin? Now imagine that you're a child, you feel that way almost all the time, and you have no idea why, or how to deal with it. You find yourself getting more and more agitated, you start acting out and annoying/provoking others, and eventually someone blows up at you, you get a big jolt of adrenalin, and then you feel so much better! Then you feel calm and happy and want a hug.

 

 

 1 1/2 hours round trip in the p car and he was as still as a mouse in his seat the whole time listening to Jonathan Park. He doesn't fidget. But the chemical stuff you described and the sensory stuff.... that sounds spot on.

 

My son is never more relaxed or chilled than when listening to music or audiobooks on long car rides; that's something that has calmed him down since he was a toddler. If you think of it from a sensory point of view, you have the audio background noise (car engine, traffic), the visual equivalent of background noise (random images zooming past the window), and the physical equivalent of white noise (car motion), all of which help calm the nervous system, and then the music or an audio book adds something to focus on. (On a related note — does your son get enough sleep? Mine found that using a white noise machine at night made it much easier for him to fall asleep and stay asleep.)

 

You also mentioned in the OP that your DS finds that showers calm him down, and that's also true of mine; in fact, he likes the water scalding hot, much hotter than I could handle. The feeling of the water repeatedly hitting all over your body provides a kind of neurological "white noise" that helps block out all the anxious/irritable/agitated feelings, and the heat helps relax tense muscles. Hard physical exercise on a regular basis helps too, but I've found that in the heat of the moment (when DS would be really anxious/agitated/angry and unable to calm himself down), a long hot shower is much more effective than trying to make him run around the house or jump on the trampoline or do pushups, and it feels less like punishment to him and more like sympathy, so it doesn't provoke further arguments.

[Wabi Sabi]

We are very open to counseling, but are not sure how to go about finding one. We went down the typical routes, asked pastor, friends, etc. No one ever really enthusiastically gave us a name. I've looked on line, Yellow Pages, etc. I am so leery and weary of the medical establishment that I just don't trust it. I'm afraid we'll get someone who just wants to medicate him. I'm not against medication, but only after an extensive work-up. If it's warranted. Not some fly-by-night 5 minute, clip-board, check the boxes interview. KWIM? My brother was very difficult and my parents went to counseling with him (back in the 70's) and the counselor made my dad pin my brother down. I wasn't there, but they told me and that freaked me out.

 

Can you ask your child's physician for a referral? 

[claire up north]

Do you have anyone in your life that has horses or could teach him horseback riding? Several people sent their sons to stay with us when I was a kid (my dad was a police chief after leaving the military), with basically a if you can straighten my son out I won't have to send him to military school thing. We had horses so there was always work to be done, but mostly I think the thing that had the most effect was the riding. You cannot control a horse if you cannot control yourself, and a lot of times as a kid you're projecting energy you don't even know that you're projecting. I think maybe it's a hormonal thing. Anyway I'm sure my dad did a few fun things with them too, taught some martial arts, maybe shooting, maybe building something, but I think what made the most difference was riding.

 

I've heard really good things about Colorado Outward Bound too, if you can afford a trip like that.

I know nothing about horses, but, this really seems like a great idea. I just love boards like this where creative, thoughtful people can get me thinking outside the box. )

[KrissiK]

 

Can you ask your child's physician for a referral?

I have a dr. Appt for him tomorrow with our GP. He is healthy as a horse, but I just want a physical exam out of the way and then I am going to ask her for a referral. I can't tell you ladies how this thread has given me some hope. Everything you all have said about the ADHD behaviors have just clicked with this boy. So, I am getting on it right away and hopefully we can get him evaluated soon.

[myfunnybunch]

 I think DS finds these "fights" to be cathartic. I've just noticed it over the past year or so. I hate "fighting". I am a peace keeper,

 

This was my experience with my dd. She would pick and pick and pick and pick until I snapped at her or had refused to engage for long enough that she could accuse me of "not caring," then she'd explode.

 

She would feel just fine within 10 minutes, bopping around like nothing happened, and I would feel like a wrung-out dishrag for the remainder of the day.

 

Eventually, when she started to push my buttons, I would just call it: "You seem to need to engage. How are you feeling right now? If you're feeling tense or frustrated or stressed, let's figure it out." It took a loooooonng time, and she has disability issues that limit her coping skills, but as a young adult (19) she can call me up and say, "I'm feeling really stressed/upset/anxious right now," or, "I just exploded and I think this is why," and we can work through it. Working with a counselor on this also helped her.

 

Addressing exercise, diet, and sleep helped too.

 

Hugs to all mommas working through these kinds of issues with your children. You're doing good work, even if on the worst days it doesn't feel like it. Some of these lessons you're teaching now may not bear fruit for many years, but you're planting the seeds they need. Hang in there.

 

Cat

 

[mamakelly]

I have a good friends whose ds is exactly like you describe. He has ADHD with Oppositional Defiance Disorder. You really need a good psychiatrist and psychologist to help. I found ours by calling a large mega church in our area and asking for counseling referrals. They had listings for several Christian counseling centers with professionally trained counselors. (((hugs)))

[DesertBlossom]

I'm learning a lot from this thread. I even have The Explosive Child and The Strong-willed Child. Both helped a lot when I read them a few years ago. I need to re-read them.

 

DS is 8 and there are time he just gets in this mood. I wish I could say it was a reaction to food dyes or something but I don't think it is. When he gets in that mood, there is no re-directing him. He seems hell bent on teasing and irritating people and sending him to his room to calm down doesn't help because as soon as he's out, he's back to bothering people. You can almost see the physical change in his face when he's in this mood. Typically I can be calm and cool and collected for a certain period of time and then I just lose it with him. And I know it doesn't help. In fact, it just makes the whole situation worse. But it's almost like the situation has to blow up before he can get himself back to normal.  This idea of "self-medicating with adrenaline" could be part of his problem. The thing is, even when he's doing something active, like playing outside in the pool, he just can't seem to NOT be irritating and bothersome to people. And he's highly sensitive to anything he considers is unfair. For example,if he and DS(5) are going back and forth bothering each other and I KNOW that DS(8) is the original instigator and the reason the problem is continuing, if I give DS(8) a consequence but not DS(5), he explodes at me because DS(5) was doing it too.  It drives me crazy. When it's not 115 degrees here anymore, I am going to try letting him run around the block.

 

That being said, he can be such a sweet, caring and responsible kid. Sometimes.

[countrygal]

I don't have a son like yours, but one that acts negatively to get attention (instigates fights, picks on others, does obnoxious things he knows bothers others.) I read The Love Languages for Children - and was surprised at how insightful and helpful it was. It helped me see the needs of my children that they couldn't even verbalize or understand and how I could approach it. Counseling in your situation seems necessary. You have received a lot of good advice to go on! Best wishes. :grouphug:

 

 

 

ETA: The situation that storygirl was talking about up there ^^^^ is the problem that this book addresses. It sounds easy, but it isn't. Maybe it isn't the only issue your ds has but his 'love tank' is likely empty or very low. I realized that how I was treating my ds by 'punishing' or correcting his bad behavior came off as a conditional love, not an unconditional love - that is, he didn't perceive that I love him regardless of his behavior. I didn't even realize how my love was so conditional towards him. That's not what I wanted or intended or even realized until I read this book. I really struggle with this still. It takes a lot of work.

[swellmomma]

The only thing that worked for my child like that is medication and therapy.  Discipline was not enough and we were getting to the point where the only interactions we had were negative or discipline filled.  With medication and therapy we can see the child he was meant to be.  Real connection is coming back with him.  There is a lot of hurt he caused the whole family to overcome, and it does cause issues with the other kids but it is improving.  For him discipline was never enough because there was underlying things going on.  Had we persisted down that road I think there would have been lines crossed that I would never be okay with just to make the discipline actually effective.  Now life is not all peachy keen with him.  This summer of him being gone to camp (he has been gone 4 weeks so far, 2 more to go) has been the most peaceful one I have had since he was born and it has allowed my other kids to really shine, and we all are half dreading his return from camp in case it is more of the same BUT the meds and therapy have made such an improvement that it is only a half dread rather than a full blown, must move away so he can't find us dread which is what it previously felt like.  

[DesertBlossom]

Just a funny (in a make-me-cry kind of way) story-- but we were all walking into church one time and the kids were quiet and calm and I gave them a genuine complement about their behavior. DS(8) who was probably 5 or 6 at the time, suddenly started yelling "la la la la la" just to be obnoxious. I was completely dumbfounded.  It's like everything I had ever learned about parenting was a complete lie.

[KrissiK]

He seems hell bent on teasing and irritating people and sending him to his room to calm down doesn't help because as soon as he's out, he's back to bothering people. You can almost see the physical change in his face when he's in this mood. Typically I can be calm and cool and collected for a certain period of time and then I just lose it with him. And I know it doesn't help. In fact, it just makes the whole situation worse. But it's almost like the situation has to blow up before he can get himself back to normal. This idea of "self-medicating with adrenaline" could be part of his problem. The thing is, even when he's doing something active, like playing outside in the pool, he just can't seem to NOT be irritating and bothersome to people. And he's highly sensitive to anything he considers is unfair. For example,if he and DS(5) are going back and forth bothering each other and I KNOW that DS(8) is the original instigator and the reason the problem is continuing, if I give DS(8) a consequence but not DS(5), he explodes at me because DS(5) was doing it too. It drives me crazy. .

This is his behavior, too. He bothers and bothers and bothers people. And now that I think about it, he does have trouble entertaining himself.

[dirty ethel rackham]

We are very open to counseling, but are not sure how to go about finding one. We went down the typical routes, asked pastor, friends, etc. No one ever really enthusiastically gave us a name. I've looked on line, Yellow Pages, etc. I am so leery and weary of the medical establishment that I just don't trust it. I'm afraid we'll get someone who just wants to medicate him. I'm not against medication, but only after an extensive work-up. If it's warranted. Not some fly-by-night 5 minute, clip-board, check the boxes interview. KWIM? My brother was very difficult and my parents went to counseling with him (back in the 70's) and the counselor made my dad pin my brother down. I wasn't there, but they told me and that freaked me out.

I would get a referral from your physician.  Tell him that you want a full neuropsych evaluation as well as counseling.  The neuropsychologist will help you identify what is going on so you have a basis for understanding where your child's behavior is coming from.  Similar behavior patterns may have different etiologies.  Counseling can help you and the child develop strategies to make things more peaceful once you know what you are dealing with.  Plus, it can be helpful for an outsider to give validation to both sides, which can be very healing.

 

For my son, his explosive personality came from sensory processing issues (including auditory) plus very low processing speed despite a near-genius IQ.  We worked on the sensory issues on a daily basis.  For him, teaching his brain how to deal with sensory issues helped get the explosiveness out of the way so that we could deal with other issues that were hidden by this really difficult situation.  One place that we ended up for counseling services is a center that is financially supported by area churches so that they can charge a sliding scale, but they are not "Christian" counselors - the respect the religious beliefs or non-belief of all their clients.  If I had heard from one more person that I just needed to pray about it, I was going to explode myself.

 

I have thought about it. I like it because it is on-going and not seasonal like sports are. And the strange thing about him .... He is not aggressive. At all. It's maddening on the sports field. He has got a beautiful physique, strength, stamina, coordination.... and no aggression. He could be the best player on his soccer team, (really, that's not just a mother's opinion), but he does not play aggressively at all. So, while that is frustrating on the sports field, I'm not afraid he will hit me. I'm afraid he may break the door down, but not hit me. He may do well in martial arts. It would probably teach him self control, too.

Karate was essential for my son - and still is.  That discipline, that focus, and the repetitive nature has really helped his focus.  We have been talking about what he will do in college to replace that since they don't have a martial arts club on campus. 

 

The fact that the OP said that the house was so much better when he was at camp seems to suggest that might be a good thing to strongly consider.

 

I would ask your pediatrician for a recommendation for that counselor.  Before you actually go in and pay money, it's fine to say, we are only for medication as a means of last resort, we don't want homeschooling to be the focus of the counseling, etc. and make sure they're on the same page as you.  But at some point, you have to go out on a limb.  Even if you have to try a couple of people, it really sounds like it may be worth it for your family.

:iagree:

 

ETA:  One thing that I worked on ad-nauseum was helping him learn a more respectful way to express his "hair on fire" distress.  We pointed out the disrespectful expression (tone, words, volume, etc.)  Then we told him what a respectful version of that would sound like and requested him to express himself in that way.  We also tried to reduce conflict by finding ways to reduce the source of his frustration. In his case, often it was food that he no longer liked and feeling like there weren't any good options.  We included him in menu planning.  If he "changed his mind" on what he liked as often happened, we tried not to react personally and inform him that he was free to make something else for himself (a sandwich, probably.)

[DesertBlossom]

This is his behavior, too. He bothers and bothers and bothers people. And now that I think about it, he does have trouble entertaining himself.

 

The other day when he was getting ornery, when I was still in a good mood about things, I told him sternly, "You know what you need? You need loves!" Then I wrestled him to the ground and wouldn't let him go while chanting "LOVES! LOVES!" and kissing him all over.  He laughed and it kind of diffused the situation. But I also wonder if the physical part of it was actually helpful. He was fighting against me (playfully) but he's still small enough he couldn't get away. 

 

I decided to put that little strategy in my back pocket and I'm going to have to pull it out again when appropriate. At least while he's still small enough for it to be effective. :p

 

Come to think of it... even when he was really little, DH and I talked about him needing a physical outlet.  The trampoline was a great investment. So is swim team over the summer. We are currently trying to find some sort of martial arts class that's appropriate for him.

[fairfarmhand]

 

Physicall discipline only ever made things worse. T

 

This has been my experience too.

 

As for push ups?

 

My dd would stand there with a "You want to make me?" look on her face. There's no way to make her do it if she doesn't want to, and I refuse to make statements that I can't enforce. I can enforce screen time restrictions, extra chores (you don't want to do chores? Fine. You won't have x privilege till its done) etc. But physical stuff, I can't make her do that.

[bettyandbob]

I have a dr. Appt for him tomorrow with our GP. He is healthy as a horse, but I just want a physical exam out of the way and then I am going to ask her for a referral. I can't tell you ladies how this thread has given me some hope. Everything you all have said about the ADHD behaviors have just clicked with this boy. So, I am getting on it right away and hopefully we can get him evaluated soon.

 

Besides ADHD you should get an evaluation for anxiety. He may have both. He may only have anxiety. If a person who has anxiety with or without ADHD ends of taking meds for the ADHD you need meds that will not mess with anxiety. Many common ADD meds make anxiety worse. If you get the anxiety controlled the ADD may not be a lot more manageable.

[KrissiK]

Besides ADHD you should get an evaluation for anxiety. He may have both. He may only have anxiety. If a person who has anxiety with or without ADHD ends of taking meds for the ADHD you need meds that will not mess with anxiety. Many common ADD meds make anxiety worse. If you get the anxiety controlled the ADD may not be a lot more manageable.

Will keep that in mind. I am hoping to get a doctor who will do a full evaluation, not just focusing on the one thing we "think" he has. I know nothing about any of this, so this is a whole new experience for me. Dh has not been happy about it, but I think he's coming around, as I've tried to explain that it is a medical condition. Doesn't mean I think he's crazy.

[LMV]

My husband's godson (who became our foster son after his dad died) has ADHD which escalated with puberty.  His dad died in the line of duty when he was a young adolescent and his biological mom was not in any position to parent then (or really any time before or after sadly).  My husband definitely earned his parenting stripes but they both came out on the other side healthy, reasonably happy, and with a very strong healthy "father"-son relationship.  

 

Things which helped/a few thoughts:

-Effectively treating the ADHD (initially with stimulants now as an adult he is doing very well with a non-stimulant medication).  Kids with ADHD often really struggle with impulse control and just can't hop off their wave well in other cases.  [untreated ADHD also increases the risk of substance abuse in self medication attempts.  It appears that these kids seem more genetically predisposed to addiction as well if they venture down the substance abuse path.]

-Ensure underlying depression/ and or depression is identified and addressed as ADHD increases the risk for depression in children/adolescents and is often co-morbid with anxiety. 

-Adequate outlets for physical activity and exertion.  DH, DSS, and DFS built many houses with habitat for humanity during the boys adolescent years.  It was a physical outlet for them, an opportunity for service (DFS's eagle project developed out of this as well) and something that they all looked forward to doing together which was really important at that time.

-Parental understanding of what was a reasonable expectation at what time.  DH did very well with setting up for success but also holding accountable when appropriate.

-CBT can be very effective at helping manage escalating anger issues.  With younger children (or amenable adolescents) it can be helpful if the parents learn the skills/and techniques alongside the child because then they can model and encourage skills use at home between sessions.  This definitely helps in terms of consolidation.  DBT can also be helpful as an adjunct and with older adolescents.  Our experience/bias is with DBT building on CBT which seems more successful but others may have a different experience.

-The therapeutic foster program we worked through taught parents motivational interviewing skills and my husband believes this was what made the biggest difference at least in helping him parent the child in front of him the way that child needed to be parented.  

 

Am I correct that your son came into your lives as a foster child?  We've always tried to acknowledge the developmental context of both attachment issues and grief.  It also seems that sometimes kids will shelve grief when they aren't in a position/sphere to acknowledge and experience it.  Often this comes back and can get in the way of securing the earlier attachments you may have worked very hard to develop and nurture. I'm not saying that either of these are relevant for your son but it may be something else to consider.  

 

Good Luck!