wendyroo Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Elliot potty trained pretty easily. We started gently introducing the potty at 12 months, he was in underwear (except for naps and nights) with regularly scheduled potty trips at 18 months, and by 24 months he was getting himself to the potty as needed. I can count on one hand the number of accidents he had from 24 months to 34 month. He was, and still is, in a diaper for naps and nights. He is occasionally dry at the end of nap, but often not. He is never dry when he wakes in the morning. I am in no hurry to drop those diapers. At 34 months he started having an occasional pee accident - about once a week, not a big deal, I responded with a casual "oops" and had him help me clean up the mess. At 35 months the frequency of accidents was increasing and seemed more and more deliberate. I printed out the Chuck E. Cheese Potty Success chart and thought that would be enough incentive to snap him out of whatever funk he was in. At 36 months the accidents were almost daily and often involved pee and poop. I spoke to the pediatrician at his well child check and she tested his urine (normal). We discussed constipation, but it seems highly unlikely. This child poops like a champ: 2 or 3 large bowel movements a day, not runny, not hard, not unusually stinky. Elliot is now 37 months and this potty issue is driving me insane!! He has accidents every day, often 2 or 3 times a day, and that is with me insisting he try to go potty every hour or so. This morning I took him to the potty at 9:30, and he pooped his pants 10 minutes later. When he has an accident, he either doesn't notice or doesn't care, because he doesn't strip off the clothes or come and tell me, but rather just goes on playing in wet and/or poopy clothes until I notice. I find him wet, and then have to search the house to find the puddle. I spend a huge amount of every day doing laundry, cleaning carpeting, airing couch cushions, etc. I've tried some very enticing "carrots" including him getting a treat immediately following every hour that he stayed clean and dry. He was upset about losing the treats, but it did not curb the accidents. I have tried some pretty strict "sticks" including him not being allowed on any carpeting for two weeks which meant no computer, no play room and having to watch TV from the adjoining room. This made clean up a lot easier, but did not act as a deterrent. Nothing has changed in his life. No new stressors. No dietary changes (he is allergic to wheat, but has been since he was a baby). No medical issues. He is eating and sleeping and playing normally, and is a generally agreeable 3 year old, but something is clearly off kilter either physically or mentally or emotionally. I am loath to put him back in diapers at this point. Does anyone have any other ideas? Thanks, Wendy UPDATE in post 15. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I would put him on an elimination diet and give high-dose probiotics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Tick Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 (((Wendyroo))) no advice, but I always found those incidents surprisingly stressful and difficult to deal with calmly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Has he been around a younger baby? Is there any chance at all he could have been abused? eta: is he regressing in any other areas or showing signs of autism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slache Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Is there any chance at all he could have been abused? :iagree: I've seen this response to abuse before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostSurprise Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Is he cleaning himself up (at least 85%...I think anyone under the age of 5 needs some help wiping up after a bowel movement) or are you doing most of the work? Is he stripping himself after every accident, putting the clothing in a dirty laundry basket, getting a washcloth wet and soapy, washing himself, drying himself, putting the dirty washcloth and towel away, washing his hands, and putting new underwear and pants on himself? The reason I ask is because he doesn't seem upset by these accidents, and in fact will keep playing through them. Many boys are that way. If it is more trouble to change and clean himself than go potty, he will go potty. He's probably just getting older and getting involved in what he's doing. It's hard to stop when you're focused. He may be a very focused individual! I would also have him help you clean floors, etc., and tell him matter-a-factly that we all clean our own messes. Don't get mad, don't vent or complain, just make it the most normal thing in the world. This is what boys and girls and mommies and daddies do. You clean up the messes you make. We stop playing and go potty because it takes up so much more time to clean ourselves. I would stop the hourly sitting on the potty...let it be in his control. He already knows how to go. The hourly usually helps them catch the moment when they need to go, so they know what it feels like. That won't help him right now. If he's doing it all and it still doesn't bother him, stay consistent. If it's not a physical problem (and most of the time with an older child it will bother them if it is a physical problem...the lack of control over what they recently could control bothers them), then the lesson will click in eventually. Just calmly make him feel that lesson...he is a big boy and going in his pants makes a lot of bother for him. More bother than missing out on the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73349 Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 I know a family in which an emerging corn allergy (in a child already diagnosed with a milk allergy) was the culprit for potty issues. Since you already know he's allergic to wheat, I would first suspect that he's developed an allergy to something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Dairy and peanuts would be my next go to foods to drop if you know he has wheat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendyroo Posted July 3, 2014 Author Share Posted July 3, 2014 Has he been around a younger baby? Is there any chance at all he could have been abused? eta: is he regressing in any other areas or showing signs of autism? He's around his little brother a lot, but that's not new at all. There has always been some level of "abuse" by his older brother, unfortunately. Peter has a lot of issues, and often grabs, hits and pushes people. I supervise their interactions as much as I possibly can, but Peter still manages to bully Elliot a lot. Again, this is not new at all. Never say never, but I don't think it is possible he is being abused by anyone other than Peter. He goes to the YMCA kid zone a couple times a week, but there are a lot of adults and a lot of glass walls there, so I really don't see how abuse would be possible. Other than that he is always with me or DH and I trust DH utterly and completely. Is he cleaning himself up (at least 85%...I think anyone under the age of 5 needs some help wiping up after a bowel movement) or are you doing most of the work? Is he stripping himself after every accident, putting the clothing in a dirty laundry basket, getting a washcloth wet and soapy, washing himself, drying himself, putting the dirty washcloth and towel away, washing his hands, and putting new underwear and pants on himself? After I point out that he is wet, then I insist that he takes off his clothes and puts them in the hamper even though he isn't bothered by them. Then he gets a wet washcloth and cleans himself up (with help if required) and gets redressed. Then he gets a towel and walks around with me while we find the puddle and he helps me clean that up. He truly doesn't seem to know where to look for the puddle, almost like he didn't even notice when he peed. If the accident was while he was reading or playing on the couch or his bed then that makes it take even longer. I make sure the whole process takes at least 15 minutes so that it is annoying and disruptive - if we have to change all his bedding and load it in the washer it takes twice that long. We have been doing this every day for over two months now with no change. I know a family in which an emerging corn allergy (in a child already diagnosed with a milk allergy) was the culprit for potty issues. Since you already know he's allergic to wheat, I would first suspect that he's developed an allergy to something else. Dairy and peanuts would be my next go to foods to drop if you know he has wheat. This is what I am worried about. He had allergy testing done at 18 months when we were already 99% sure he was allergic to wheat, but we only tested for a few other foods. The allergist said we would retest for a wider range of things after he was 3 and perhaps start allergy shots if he had significant environmental allergies. He is constantly wheezing and developing rashes from indeterminable environmental, chemical, animal, and food triggers; the other day he ate some watermelon and within minutes had developed a bright red rash everywhere the juice had dripped on his face and chest, even though he has eaten watermelon almost every day of every summer of his life without any reactions. He has an allergist appointment scheduled, but the next open testing appointment wasn't until September. I am going to have to seriously think about putting him on an elimination diet between now and then. It just seems so weird; he reacted so strongly to wheat (in my breast milk) right from birth that we were able to determine pretty quickly what the problem was. But now I have kept a food diary for him for several months and haven't noticed any pattern that would point to other problem foods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendyroo Posted July 3, 2014 Author Share Posted July 3, 2014 Could he be looking for attention? Since Peter has so many issues he is probably getting a lot of attention. I remember being convinced that one of mine would never potty train. I asked a zillion people and never really got advice that helped. But it did happen. It's really complicated because what works for one kid won't for another. :grouphug: He's normally a pretty mellow, low-maintenance kid. There have been times that he tried to get my attention, but they have always been pretty transparent like when he would bring picture books and stack them on top of baby Spencer while he nursed. He actually gets quite a bit of my attention, though not a ton of one on one time. He is always welcome to participate in learning time, so between that and meals and story reading and errands and walks and helping me with chores, all the boys and I spend most of our days "working" together or, at least, in close proximity. I also make sure to invite Elliot on a one on one outing each weekend; it might just be to the post office or grocery store, but I make a point of actively engaging him in conversation while we are out. Actually, he often declines the invitation and would prefer to stay home, so if he is seeking attention, he wants it on his own terms. Wendy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachel Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Hugs, I get it. My 4 year old is this way and it's never one accident it's 4 or 5 in a day. She potty trained very easily at 18 months and then regressed. There's a book called, "It's No Accident" that basically says it could be caused by constipation even if it doesn't appear to be. We have followed the recommended treatment in there and as long as we stay on too of it, it's helping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 Given the info I'd put money on it being a food intolerance/allergy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 My dd had short absence type seizures at around 3.5. The first sign was wetting herself. If she had any urine in her bladder at the time of a siezure,she would wet herself. I started to notice times when she would stare in space for a few seconds at a time and connected the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendyroo Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 UPDATE Well, it seems it is a dairy issue. We decided to use the long weekend to conduct a dairy-free experiment. Starting Friday morning I eliminated dairy and started a food / accident log for Elliot. Except, I never had to use the accident side of the log because he hasn't had an accident since then. Obviously, it has only been 4.5 days of him staying clean and dry, but since he was averaging 3 accidents a day, I'm counting that as a significant change. This food thing is getting more and more complicated. We will now be eating wheat, soy and dairy free. We try to stick with mostly whole foods and minimize artificial colors, flavors, preservatives and added sugars. DH and I struggle with our weight, so I need to make meals that allow us the option of eating calorie-low and nutrient-high, but the three growing boys clearly need ample protein and healthy fats. Now that the boys won't be eating dairy I will have to work to make sure they take in enough calcium. To add another layer of complexity I've been steadily trying to reduce our food budget from exorbitant to excessive to merely steep. Oh, well, if it's not one thing it's always another. Thank you everyone who steered me in the direction of trying an elimination diet. Wendy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momto10blessings Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Glad you have an answer, thanks for updating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 :grouphug: I'm glad you have an answer and truly sorry it's more complicated for your budget and time. I am gluten free; additional restrictions would be tricky--people just don't "get it" when you are removing things from your diet, esp. if they are already healthy-ish things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 UPDATE Well, it seems it is a dairy issue. We decided to use the long weekend to conduct a dairy-free experiment. Starting Friday morning I eliminated dairy and started a food / accident log for Elliot. Except, I never had to use the accident side of the log because he hasn't had an accident since then. Obviously, it has only been 4.5 days of him staying clean and dry, but since he was averaging 3 accidents a day, I'm counting that as a significant change. This food thing is getting more and more complicated. We will now be eating wheat, soy and dairy free. We try to stick with mostly whole foods and minimize artificial colors, flavors, preservatives and added sugars. DH and I struggle with our weight, so I need to make meals that allow us the option of eating calorie-low and nutrient-high, but the three growing boys clearly need ample protein and healthy fats. Now that the boys won't be eating dairy I will have to work to make sure they take in enough calcium. To add another layer of complexity I've been steadily trying to reduce our food budget from exorbitant to excessive to merely steep. Oh, well, if it's not one thing it's always another. Thank you everyone who steered me in the direction of trying an elimination diet. Wendy I'm sorry. Food issues always feel really overwhelming. It's funny that you say this. My hardest to train was Rebecca. We now know she has significant food issues. If it makes you feel any better some of my kids who have serious issues with dairy can still do yogurt and kefir, so, when you're feeling strong, you can introduce that and see what happens. Also, milk isn't that great for calcium. For what it offers and leaches out of the body, it's simply not worth it. Growing up in the Midwest milk is drank at every meal. Once you kick it, you honestly don't miss it and you realize how little you needed it. Check out this link for calcium foods: http://whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=45 And calcium in greens is much better absorbed and offers a LOT more as far as nutrients. We have smoothies every morning with greens in them and the kids don't think a thing about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luanne Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I guess I don't understand why all three children have to give up dairy entirely just because one of them is sensitive to it. My entire family hasn't gone gluten free just because I can't eat it. I haven't given up eating eggs just because my daughter is allergic to them. My daughter and I still eat fruit even though my mother doesn't like it. ... and yes, we eat a lot of meals together. We just don't eat every single aspect of what the others are eating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I guess I don't understand why all three children have to give up dairy entirely just because one of them is sensitive to it. My entire family hasn't gone gluten free just because I can't eat it. I haven't given up eating eggs just because my daughter is allergic to them. My daughter and I still eat fruit even though my mother doesn't like it. ... and yes, we eat a lot of meals together. We just don't eat every single aspect of what the others are eating. Because you and your daughter are both adults. You can cook for yourselves. And you aren't going to feel left out too much because you have the understanding of an adult. Wendy, our family is dairy free and use almond milk instead in cooking. There are other "milks" out there as well. We also like the almond or coconut milk ice creams. (We do not like the rice milk ones - those have a gross aftertaste in my opinion.) My kids have taken a calcium supplement during big growth spurts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luanne Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 There were things I couldn't eat as a child and my mother never made everyone else give them up as well. I was fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendyroo Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 I guess I don't understand why all three children have to give up dairy entirely just because one of them is sensitive to it. My entire family hasn't gone gluten free just because I can't eat it. I haven't given up eating eggs just because my daughter is allergic to them. My daughter and I still eat fruit even though my mother doesn't like it. ... and yes, we eat a lot of meals together. We just don't eat every single aspect of what the others are eating. All the kids aren't going completely dairy free, but it is still going to greatly impact how we all eat. I'm not going to offer two of the kids a cheese stick with lunch right in front of Elliot knowing that he loves cheese and will feel left out, especially since I don't know of any good cheese substitutes. I'm obviously not going to make something with dairy for dinner since it would require making Elliot a whole separate meal which is more work for me than just finding dinner options that everyone can eat. Wendy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendyroo Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 Wendy, our family is dairy free and use almond milk instead in cooking. There are other "milks" out there as well. We also like the almond or coconut milk ice creams. (We do not like the rice milk ones - those have a gross aftertaste in my opinion.) My kids have taken a calcium supplement during big growth spurts. I'm not that worried about milk; my kids don't drink a ton of milk and I have experience using almond milk in cooking. Eliminating cheese and yogurt will be the biggest adjustments. Wendy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiewindmomma Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I'm glad you've got it sorted out. We had to eliminate dairy for the same reason when my daughter was about the same age. Keeping a list of "safe" snacks helped keep me sane through the transition of adding yet another food allergy. Most snacks here revolve around veggies, fruit, tortilla chips, and popcorn. I occasionally make a baked treat for a change. Rice or tapioca pudding made with almond milk is a good substitute when a child is missing dairy. Nuts and seeds, avocado, and veggies with dip are easy ways to add in healthy fats. FWIW, our local allergist has never met a kid who is allergic to dairy (in a non-anaphylactic way) who also reacts to organic butter. You might give it a try. We found that we can do butter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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