bolt. Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 But, do to his choices which result in him wallowing in a mound of schoolwork, they are not willing to have anyone pick him up for fundraisers, they are not willing to allow anyone to HELP him participate in practice launches, they are not willing to let him do anything EXCEPT show up to compete and take whatever accolades the team may earn. That's my huge problem. He is 15, and no one else can simply show up and announce that they are there to pick him up for x,y,z. The parents have the say in it, and they are cutting him off from team participation in ANYTHING to this point and then want to show up on the 10th to compete. It seems to me that that is between him and them. If you give him assignments that he is capable of doing as an unaided 15 year old young man -- and his parents forbid him, then his parents have forbidden him. You provide him the means to come -- if he can't make it happen as a teen in his household, I suppose he can't. That's sad for him, and weird of them, but it has nothing to do with you. I don't think we can allow him to continue because he is NOT going to participate in anything else since he apparently cannot sacrifice the time because of his school situation which we do believe falls squarely on his shoulders and is his parents' problem, not the team's. If he honestly doesn't have the time to do club activities, that falls under work-life balance, and a kid his age should be prioritizing his schoolwork, I think. What I'm trying to get at is that you don't need to know why he isn't meeting trip-going expectations. Just list them, and tick them off, and if he's not qualified, he's not qualified. It's not about people's attitudes or anything else. A manageable task list for one teenager. If he does it, he goes. If he does not, he does not. No expectations that require parental effort... simple parental permission will suffice. If he can't secure their permission, it's over. .... At this point his parents are saying absolutely NO to any participation from this point forward and demanding that he still be allowed to go to the competition. "Thank you for your concern. I discussed the requirements for Jr to come on the trip, and he has a checklist. If he completes the requirements, he will absolutely qualify to attend." {Insisting} "No problem -- your son is a very capable young man and should have no problem qualifying." {Insisting} "Yes, we will take all qualifying team members." {Insisting} "Of course, if he qualifies, I'm sure it will be wonderful." {Insisting} "Yes, it would be unfortunate if Jr doesn't qualify. You might want to look over his checklist, if you think you can be of help to him." {Insisting} "I hear that you are concerned that he might not qualify. I don't really think it will be an issue if he takes the checklist seriously." {Insisting} "What? Huh? Oh--o, You think he should join the trip even if he doesn't complete the qualifications? Why? No, we won't be able to allow that. If he doesn't qualify, he won't be able to participate." {Insisting} "Sorry, we will only be allowing qualifying team members to participate." {Insisting} "Sorry, we will only...." :|| Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Posted Today, 02:53 PM TechWife, on 07 Apr 2014 - 2:24 PM, said: I hope you're not saying they should vote on this. Kids this age do not possess the capacity for a decision like this - I earnestly believe it would turn into a popularity contest. It is definitely within the rights of the team sponsors/coaches/team organizers to make this decision. Voting may not be the right tactic, but the kids should have some kind of a say if they're going to be taking on part or all of his workload. No, this decision should not be put on the kids. It's not their fault. If they "get" to decide, they will end up either feeling like they got screwed or feeling like they were mean to their friend, or both. They will feel pressured and coerced. They should not have to deal with it. That's a job for the adults. It's hard to be the strict one but it has to be done. It's not fair to ANYONE (even you) if you let them take advantage of the group (and you) this way. This is the sort of thing that takes the joy out of volunteering. It happens in every organization and seems to rear its ugly head every few years. Drawing the line now may spare you for the next few years (til everyone forgets and someone new tries it again). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in NH Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 [sNIP] I feel that he has to participate in fundraising or he doesn't go and if they do choose to waste their money to bring him, he's benched. No access to competition or the restricted area for teams, no ice cream social, no sight seeing, no awards banquet, no traveling with the team, and if they should perchance win the competition, no England since they did not want to help his team members get to D.C. in the first place. I feel strongly on that because he would be rewarded for NOT finishing the team year by getting an all expense paid trip to Farnsborough by Raytheon. It seems really wrong to allow him a pass on this and especially since it negatively impacts the team. it was entirely his own fault for what amounts to pretty much being a little weasel at school. [sNIP] Yes, you are right to do this. It is not the team's fault that he cannot travel with them. He wants to be a part of the championship; he pays. Shape up or ship out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Normally, I would say to cut the boy some slack. I am guessing that he may have some special needs. But sn kids I know usually have parents who go out of their way to give extra help, to even things out, sort of. What I would fear about the mother is that she would say ds is be tired, not feeling well, whatever on the day of the competition, or the mother might be vindictive. I am presuming that an unexpected absence or extra tension could throw your team off. For that reason alone -- since it is a high stakes event -- I would not want a possible negative in the background. You could really go to England if you win? Don't jeopardize that. I am surprised that your 4H only said she'd support your decision. I would absolutely want, in writing, a 4H policy that I could use. Let the parents due 4H, not you, if it comes to that. Oh, I really hope your team wins!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Does the kid's mom really still cut his meat for him? :svengo: D And are their names Norma and Norman? Because this sounds like one messed up mother-son dynamic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted April 7, 2014 Author Share Posted April 7, 2014 Yes Catwoman and Unsinkable, I've witnessed it - cut his chicken parmesan for him...reached across the table, picked up his utensils, and told him he needed smaller pieces then cut it. Messed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Yes Catwoman and Unsinkable, I've witnessed it - cut his chicken parmesan for him...reached across the table, picked up his utensils, and told him he needed smaller pieces then cut it. Messed up. Don't take a shower if either of them are nearby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammi K Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Your perspective is perfect. He can't do the work. They won't help fundraise. They are abusive to you. They actively hurt the progress of the team (pulling out son and leaving other child to do work his own). Their continued presence will be stressful for you and possibly for every other student and parent involved with this. The reason for not cutting him loose is what? I, Supreme Poobah of All That is Right and True, command you to dump this family. :iagree: This! All of it! read it again and again and ask yourself why you are trying so hard to make it work for this kid. And, if you find yourself saying, "Yes, but....." Read it again!!! ((And then remind yourself that every other boy on the team is going to see what this kid got away with and will, quite possibly feel, each according to his own nature, challenged to try to receive unearned benefits as well or will feel offended by his undeserved good fortune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Yes Catwoman and Unsinkable, I've witnessed it - cut his chicken parmesan for him...reached across the table, picked up his utensils, and told him he needed smaller pieces then cut it. Messed up. Wow. That poor kid! :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Because it seems to me there is no way that the child himself can make this right at this point this year, I would let him come on the trip. I would then let him know that he cannot participate next year. I would probably also take the time to discuss with him the choices he could have made personally throughout the year that might have changed that outcome. Yes, he has made bad choices, but he could not have anticipated his parents' behavior and to decide at the end of the year that enough is enough doesn't seem like it teaches the right lesson to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinsomeCreek Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Poor kid. Please don't be another adult in this boy's life who gives him the wrong message. Money issue aside, set expectations and boundaries and turn him away if he can't meet them. Letting him be an exception will reinforce his parents' stance. If he loses enough he will eventually rebel against what sounds like unreasonable control and start taking responsibility for his own life. Or maybe his parents will wake up and see that what they are doing is not working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Oh my, I hope that boy picks a college or job far, far away from his mother. He will probably thrive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Oh my, I hope that boy picks a college or job far, far away from his mother. He will probably thrive. Or else he'll go completely wild and do all of the things he knows his mother would never approve of. I had a few friends whose parents were super-strict, and one of them turned almost into a new person (and not in a healthy way) as soon as she got a taste of freedom from her parents. The other strictly-parented kids I knew turned out just fine, though. I hope this boy turns out well. I'm sure his mom loves him more than anything in the world, but it sounds like she is really messing up. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree Frog Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Have you sat him down (just him) and laid it all out for him and told him that you guys are in a tough position and what does he think would be the fair/best thing for the team/ to do? Once he is forced to think about it (without his parents coaching and enabling), he may come to a different conclusion. I agree with the above. At 15, he's old enough to begin handling some of own stuff. If you don't allow him to return next year, what would be his motivation to improve his current behavior? His parents aren't holding him accountable and it's quite possible he will never see that he is the problem, instead of everyone else being the problem. Could you explain to him why he won't be attending this year's tournament due to his slacking off at school, having to make up the school work, and not having the time to be prepared for the competition? If you tell him he could possibly rejoin next year if he is able to fulfill his current obligations (whatever you decide he needs to do, perhaps something over the summer?) both with the team and his school, he is more likely to respond better. It would also give him time to fix his problem and prove to himself that he can fix what he messed up. Yep, the consequence is that he misses this year's competition. But if he's given a chance to prove himself, he might be able to help the team get to Nationals next year. If the team made Nationals next year, I'll bet he'll make sure his schoolwork is in order! I think those conversations need to happen without Mom around, which doesn't sound likely. Perhaps she wouldn't be allowed at the meeting because of the way she spoke to you, but Dad might be an acceptable stand-in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuirkyKapers Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 FaithManor, wondering if you talked with the family and how it went? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 It's a tough situation, but I completely agree with your thoughts on how to handle it. If you stop participating in practices and refuse to help with the fundraising, you lose the privilege of being included in the competition. It isn't the team's fault or yours that he can't be there for the whole competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 FaithManor, wondering if you talked with the family and how it went? :lurk5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted April 10, 2014 Author Share Posted April 10, 2014 HI everyone, We decided that we just simply needed to put in writing a reasonable set of expectations...here is what it will cost you to opt out of fundraising, here is the number of practice launches he can miss, here is what he needs to do about his presentation competition issue which was that he needed to eat crow, profusely apologize to the student who would take over his portion, and understand that if the team placed in the presentation competition and earned any prize money, he would not be getting any of it. We were very unemotional...just laid out the expectations. Failure to meet those expectations means he does not participate in competition and even IF they drive him there, we will not issue him his credentials to get into the competition areas. The ball is in their court. We have a practice launch this weekend, and a speaking engagement next week, followed by another practice launch weekend and speaking on the 24th, briefing before we leave. Last night they were here to work on their tri-fold backboard and banners for the 24th. He was a no show. So, we'll see. We have it backed up in writing from our 4-H program director which means they have no leg to stand on if they complain. The boy, last we talked, seemed genuinely sad. There was no bravado or bad attitude from him at all. We are very comfortable with the position that we have taken, and it was done in a face to face meeting between DH and the parents. The dad was very much of the opinion that his kid dug a hole and needed to own it. The mom had a how-dare-you-disappoint-my-child-and-we-deserve-special-consideration- attitude. It was obvious that she's, for the first time in apparently a long time, encountering boundaries that are being enforced and that has her very riled. My hope is that he gets his make-up work done, and that he attends the prescribed number of meetings/events so he can go. Working hard, digging out from under, eating some crow, and ending on a positive note would be very, very beneficial to him. But, the wild card is the mother since the dad does not stand up to her. She appears to want to "punish" us or defy us for not automatically bowing to her. It feels, to some degree, like a game of chicken! That said, she's been forewarned that we aren't swerving. Thanks for asking, and for all of the wisdom. My head hurt soooo bad that day, and I hadn't had much sleep so though I'm not normally rattled by the stuff, it really helped to talk it out here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuirkyKapers Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Just checking to see how this turned out in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Yell Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Oh my, I hope that boy picks a college or job far, far away from his mother. He will probably thrive. If he doesn't choke to death on a piece of chicken parmesan. :glare: (Not wishing harm on the boy- referring to a previous post where his mommy cut his meat into smaller pieces for him) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Yell Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 HI everyone, We decided that we just simply needed to put in writing a reasonable set of expectations...here is what it will cost you to opt out of fundraising, here is the number of practice launches he can miss, here is what he needs to do about his presentation competition issue which was that he needed to eat crow, profusely apologize to the student who would take over his portion, and understand that if the team placed in the presentation competition and earned any prize money, he would not be getting any of it. We were very unemotional...just laid out the expectations. Failure to meet those expectations means he does not participate in competition and even IF they drive him there, we will not issue him his credentials to get into the competition areas. The ball is in their court. We have a practice launch this weekend, and a speaking engagement next week, followed by another practice launch weekend and speaking on the 24th, briefing before we leave. Last night they were here to work on their tri-fold backboard and banners for the 24th. He was a no show. So, we'll see. We have it backed up in writing from our 4-H program director which means they have no leg to stand on if they complain. The boy, last we talked, seemed genuinely sad. There was no bravado or bad attitude from him at all. We are very comfortable with the position that we have taken, and it was done in a face to face meeting between DH and the parents. The dad was very much of the opinion that his kid dug a hole and needed to own it. The mom had a how-dare-you-disappoint-my-child-and-we-deserve-special-consideration- attitude. It was obvious that she's, for the first time in apparently a long time, encountering boundaries that are being enforced and that has her very riled. My hope is that he gets his make-up work done, and that he attends the prescribed number of meetings/events so he can go. Working hard, digging out from under, eating some crow, and ending on a positive note would be very, very beneficial to him. But, the wild card is the mother since the dad does not stand up to her. She appears to want to "punish" us or defy us for not automatically bowing to her. It feels, to some degree, like a game of chicken! That said, she's been forewarned that we aren't swerving. Thanks for asking, and for all of the wisdom. My head hurt soooo bad that day, and I hadn't had much sleep so though I'm not normally rattled by the stuff, it really helped to talk it out here. :hurray: :hurray: :hurray: So sorry it was hard for you. VERY proud of how you handled it- great lesson all around. Truly hoping the boy works it out. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Sounds like you handled it very well, documented it well, and gave him fair and reasonable opportunity. I'm excited to hear about how your team fares this season! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Sounds like you handled it very well, documented it well, and gave him fair and reasonable opportunity. I'm excited to hear about how your team fares this season! :iagree: This. And :grouphug: because I'm sure it was still a hard thing to get through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted April 21, 2014 Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 AS it stands, he did show up for the fundraiser because his mother suddenly decided she didn't want to opt out and pay more. She did bring the items she was asked to bring, and she helped clean up too....knock me over with a feather! He missed a meeting after that. So, he can't miss anything else. But, his school administrator came to us and told us he is getting his work done, and that he can miss school for the GM event and presentation. We thought that on Thursday we would have to say he was done since he left early from a launch session and then didn't show to another meeting. I did not think the principle would cave nor should cave. However, I suspect that he is trying to reward the young fella for his efforts. Bottom line is, there is an unhealthy dynamic between the child and the mother...really unhealthy, and I think that he is seeing it and while he probably won't let that child back into his school next year, he's trying to end the year on a positive note and resolve some things for the sake of school records so the teen doesn't enter his new school in the fall with too many strikes against him. As an educator, I applaud that as long as he's tough enough on the child to make him be responsible for his choices. Now, that said, he still can't miss the school event in order to leave with the team. One of the parents will have to drive him, and of course it's going to be the mother, and of course she's now claiming she doesn't want to leave too early in the morning because she doesn't like to drive early, and so he won't be at briefing and registration. DH told her not to bother to come if she won't have him there on time because if he doesn't attend briefing, he is not giving that boy his credentials to be in the restricted area to compete because if he doesn't follow the rules, the team gets DQ'ed. There are going to be some rule changes at briefing and neither of us is staying up until 2 a.m. to fill him in on those changes so we can be up again at 5:00 a.m. NOT HAPPENING! So, we'll see if she gets him there on time, or if it's all for nothing. I hope for his sake she gets him there for briefing. It would be heartbreaking for him if he had to sit out once he got there. But, we can't risk the other six team members chances because of both choices he's made, and her narcissistic behavior. Anyway, so far, it's not playing out as badly as it could have...it's a waiting game though in terms of the final outcome for him. Thanks for asking! As for the trip in general, I'm looking forward to it. This team, without undo influence from others, works supremely well together, has great sportsmanship, and enjoys each other's company. They travel well too. So getting down there early and sight seeing with them, attending the congressional breakfast, etc. is just going to be a joy. The newest team member has never been to the D.C. area, and I'm pretty certain he's so geeked, he probably won't sleep a wink before we leave, LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 You have a lot on your plate, since the boy's attendance is still not a definite yes/no. I applaud your patience! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 she's now claiming she doesn't want to leave too early in the morning because she doesn't like to drive early Well isn't that special. (Said in my best SNL church lady voice.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 The mom sounds like a real ... nice lady. :laugh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 How goes it, Faith? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted April 30, 2014 Author Share Posted April 30, 2014 Hi Seasider, We got the last of the money in today. We will have $125.00 more than needed for the trip - if nothing goes wrong. But, the parents are sending each child extra money so Dh and I won't have to fund any disasters entirely on our own. In previous years, we did just fine with the budget and didn't have any expensive unexpected items pop up. The kids flew a 4 and a 10 on Sunday. These are super good numbers so we have high hopes they'll make it into the top 24 and get to fly a second flight to compete for the scholarships and prize money. If they make another top ten finish, we'll be beyond thrilled but glad for the experience no matter what happens. If they were to win, oh ha-ha...this is funny...the international competition is in England. They would have to leave the 9th of July, and we do not get home from Iceland until the 6th!!! On top of that, they'll be gone until the 14th, and on the 19th we have mega 4-H responsibilities at the County Fair. So, yah...if they win, YIKES! However, it's a good kind of crazy to have so we'll roll with it. Current weather conditions indicate that they won't be able to put up any more practice flights before we leave. We are having rainstorms all week. The current prediction for the 10th is light rain and a scattered thunder storm. If there is lightening, it gets called and then continued the next day. Last year we were spit on, and winds ran north and south of the field, but held off enough to finish the event. Wind gusts were brutal and most teams, if they went up and down safely, didn't care much about the score and just yelled "We're alive!" It wasn't any easy year. So, it could be more of the same. We'll see. The presentation competition is coming along. The kids are finishing the memorizing of it, and the rough draft and computer graphics - that's the part that had to be sent in by the 28th - were in on time. We'll know Monday the 5th if we are one of the 12 that are chosen to give their presentation in person. Last year we were...there were 34 teams that sent in presentations for judging and we were one of the 12 they picked. We came in fourth the day of the competition when they gave the presentation in person and had the two minute question and answer period. Hopefully, we'll place in the top three this year. First place is $1000.00 for the team members that participated. But, that's not the big carrot. Tons of industry reps hang out at this thing and so do college scouts. Last year our eldest boy was offered a college internship with Timken. He was only a sophomore at the time. No joke. We have it in writing from an executive, and they don't care where he goes to college. They'll provide it no matter what and guarantee a family for him to live with if he has to go very far. That's amazing! Our middle boy talked with scouts from Virginia Tech and U of Alabama. Both of the girls had a LOT of interest from several universities and a couple of NASA astronauts thought they were the cat's meow! They are very well spoken young ladies, impressive to listen too though a little shy when interviewing. I have to get our laundry caught up this weekend and pack. We pick up the GM van on Tuesday, pack Tuesday night, and leave Wednesday morning at 5:30 a.m. The whole team is very excited! I have to admit that I am too...I love this group of kids! We have "blast" :D together! Thanks for asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted April 30, 2014 Author Share Posted April 30, 2014 Oh bummer, you just reminded me that I forgot to submit our sleeping arrangements plan to our program director. Good thing she can now approve it herself without sending it to campus. Last year it had to go to someone at MSU for approval. Sigh....MUST do this tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Sounds so fun, and fantastic opportunities for the students. Keep us posted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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