Is MUS really not good enough?

[PeacefulChaos]

I read somewhere that MUS doesn't properly prepare kids for college.  Is that true?

 

If not MUS, then what?  

 

I have one kid, in particular, who has thrived with MUS.  He did an entire year of Saxon before that and did not retain ONE thing.  It was awful.  I will NEVER use Saxon again because obviously he doesn't learn well with it, and I don't like the idea of having different kids in different programs (I'm not rich! :D )

I have another who seems to be able to learn math well with anything -he's used Saxon, which was fine (but I did still hate the program so I switched him), Singapore, which he did fine with, and now he's in MUS for the ease of having all the kids in the same program.  

No clue yet on the last one.  She hasn't started math yet, but I can't see using anything but MUS with her because it just seems the most up her alley, as well.  

 

So tell me, is that hype true?  It isn't that I feel it necessary to have the most rigorous math out there, but I do want them to be prepared for anything, and I want them to have a math foundation in school that they can build on in college without needing to remediate.  

[mom31257]

I haven't used it but have 2 friends who did use it all the way through high school. She has an adopted younger child, and she is not using MUS with her. Her older kids did poorly in math on college entrance exams, but made As all the way through MUS. Both told me MUS didn't prepare their kids at all for testing or include nearly enough word problems. 

 

If you like MUS, perhaps you could supplement it when you get to high school. 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Hopefully someone who has actually used it for an extended period and has kids in college can comment but it seems from what I have read on these boards and from comments people I know IRL have made, MUS is a great fit for a lot of kids and not a great fit for others.  I do think that in higher level math the kids seem to do better if they are also supplementing with something else or use MUS as the supplement so they are exposed to different approaches to concepts, etc..   If you read old threads you will see that MUS has been a HUGE help to a lot of kids, really helping them truly understand math but they needed other things at a higher level, too.  

 

But other math systems have also helped a lot of kids like Teaching Textbooks, Math Mammoth, Math on the Level, Math in Focus, Saxon, Singapore, Right Start, CLE, Horizons, etc.  And yet those programs don't work well for every child, and for some kids certain programs didn't work AT ALL.  Every child and every circumstance is different.  I realize that makes things difficult in trying to determine as the educator/parent what the best system will be for getting kids truly prepared for college and beyond.  I hopped a ton of curriculums trying to find what would work for my kids.  My final conclusion is that, IMHO, if you can make certain that they are really mastering concepts and have enough review that old concepts don't get too rusty, I think most kids will do well with nearly any of the main math curriculums as long as they seem to really be learning.  But supplementing with other things seems a really good idea...

 

Edited to add others chimed in while I was posting...hope their responses help OP....

[wapiti]

Just from reading the boards here, it may be important to distinguish between the elementary program and the secondary program.  It was my impression that the secondary levels of MUS are reputed to be light.

 

OP, there are loads of math programs at the secondary level that are neither MUS nor Saxon.  You might look to the high school board threads about math.

[73349]

Okay, I only have Alpha and Primer, so you can take this FWIW, but I see two drawbacks.

1) Quantity: I don't think a MUS level is equal to a full year's instruction. At only 30 lessons, that's less than one a week, and they're not long. (I imagine they're meatier in the upper levels, but they can't add up to 60 hours a year, which is what I'd expect in school.)

2) Feedback: Any video has the drawback of not being interactive. Unless you supplement the teaching, there's a risk of errors in understanding, and of performance without deep understanding. So that's an issue of the format, regardless of content.

 

When you combine the two, there's the risk of just gliding through without really getting everything.

[OneStepAtATime]

Just from reading the boards here, it may be important to distinguish between the elementary program and the secondary program.  It was my impression that the secondary levels of MUS are reputed to be light.

 

OP, there are loads of math programs at the secondary level that are neither MUS nor Saxon.  You might look to the high school board threads about math.

Excellent point!  Some systems have a great elementary program but the higher maths are weak (or they don't go to higher level maths).  The parents posting that they love MUS seem to mainly be using it in elementary and some early middle school.  They also work with their kids, not just turning them over to the DVDs for instruction.  My mother loves the elementary levels.  She didn't seem to think the middle school/high school levels were as thorough (but she is reading teacher not a math teacher).

 

If MUS is working well at the elementary level, maybe continuing with it in the lower levels would work really well.  That doesn't mean you have to stick with it forever.  It seems from what I see on these boards and IRL that in middle school/high school a lot of people switch to other systems.  And as wapiti wisely pointed out, there are TONS of great math programs for secondary.  I have researched and researched and honestly there are so many good choices.   You don't have to stick with one thing forever.

 

Best wishes...

[Corraleno]

I don't like the idea of having different kids in different programs...

 

I have another who seems to be able to learn math well with anything -he's used Saxon, which was fine (but I did still hate the program so I switched him), Singapore, which he did fine with, and now he's in MUS for the ease of having all the kids in the same program. 

 

I'm sure it's cheaper and more convenient to have all your kids using the same math program, but sometimes kids with different learning styles may need different programs.

 

FWIW, I would definitely not take a kid who is capable of doing well in Singapore and switch him to MUS. You would be going from near the top end of the math spectrum to near the bottom, in terms of thoroughness and challenge; that would be doing him a big disservice, IMHO.

 

Personally, I would not use MUS unless that was truly the only program that worked with a particular child, and even then I would supplement. And I would not use it at all in HS except as a supplement or introduction to a more standard program.

[Mommamia]

We have used MUS for primer to epsilon so far. At times I worried it wasn't enough so we strayed to other products( mm, TT, CLE, and Horizons). I found that MUS actually seemed to be ahead in some areas. I also found we had a couple small gaps that would be filled by the next level of MUS. Hope that makes sense. I guess it seems to be a program that works best if you stick with it. I have found the way it teaches fractions to be wonderful. Now, with that said, we may continue on through high school, but supplement with Horizons to bring in another approach ( picking and choosing lessons). But in a nutshell, we love MUS and I'm happy with results ( test scores, etc)

What I have finally realized....make curriculum your own.

[serendipitous journey]

I've used MUS elementary levels.  I used it for an unusually math-talented and sensitive child (A.) who could not tolerate the pictures in Singapore and moved too quickly through MEP for us to stay there long.  I did teach the material myself, and didn't rely on the videos much at all. 

 

I will say that MUS gave us a terrific foundation for basic maths.  I started hopping around the fractions year, when I began to find the approach was building up the math "intuition" I wanted, and never settled back into MUS.  I tried their algebra when A. reached that point: I am a bit mathy myself, and DH is very mathy, and we were dissatisfied with the way algebra was taught; I don't think it was laying a strong foundation for really using math (that is, using math to do stuff with -- to do analysis, science, statistics, &c).   I would not be comfortable using it as my secondary maths program for a neurotypical, bright classical student. It is just not the math equivalent of Great Books, for example -- a child following WTM recs for history, language and science and using MUS for maths would be much weaker in math, relative to those other areas, I am fairly sure. 

 

(note -- I think MUS Algebra is a strong option for those who wish to do a less-rigorous Algebra as the "pre-Algebra" to a more-rigorous course such as Jacobs &c)

 

There are other excellent options.  Singapore is quite good, though it would require more teacher involvement.  The free British MEP program is outstanding, but again teacher-intensive.  Galore Park is a British company that publishes maths materials through middle school level or so, they are excellent.  And we're using AoPS for pre-A and up at the moment, which does have online courses, but that is a more particular sort of math -- it clearly doesn't suit everyone. 

 

 

[Lori D.]

I have heard MORE than one parent on this board say they did NOT have a math struggler, but that MUS was such an ideal math program for their student that the student went on to college into a STEM field and excelled, or ended up helping other students with college math, because MUS gave them a great foundation. (See the threads below to read those accounts first-hand.)

 

We used MUS from 5th grade-on with our math struggler, and included other things as supplement (Singapore, Keys to… workbooks, Jacobs Algebra…). He went on to score well enough on the community college math placement assessment in 12th grade to have taken the College Algebra course (not a lower high school level math course) -- and that was after just after completing MUS Algebra 2 and being a math struggler.

 

We also supplemented with our math-minded older DS who used Singapore Primary, NEM, and Jacobs as spines and Saxon as supplement. I am a big believer in using more than one math program to help students see concepts from very different angles,  to increase math connections, and to enhance problem-solving skills. Esp. because MUS is so gentle, it is VERY easy to use supplements, even if you have a math struggler.

 

In comparison to a number of other high school math programs, yes, I'd say MUS is on the "lite" end, along with Teaching Textbooks. Is MUS for everyone? No. But then, no math program is a fit for everyone; MUS clearly clicks well for some students in the early years, and for some all the way through. If possible, I would suggest adding some supplements for deeper coverage and problem-solving.

 

And if your student can handle 2 programs, MUS can make an excellent intro to the high school level of math for LOTS of types of students. (8FilltheHeart says she uses the upper levels of MUS as an introduction, and then goes on to use a more rigorous program.) 

 

Here are past threads with some really good, real-life experiences with MUS through high school and into college -- mostly positive, some negative, which is the way with most programs. ;)

MUS question (results if you used it through high school)

Anyone use MUS all the way thru?

MUS in high school

Happily ever after stories sought

MUS for a STEM student?

 

 

I don't like the idea of having different kids in different programs (I'm not rich!  :D )

 

Well, I wasn't fond of the idea either, BUT, 2 RADICALLY different students meant 2 very different math spines AND different math supplements -- so I ended up having to learn how to use a BUNCH of different math programs ;).

 

Buying used is always an option to help reduce costs. But honestly: math is SUCH an important and foundational subject that if you need 3 different programs to best meet the needs of 3 different students, do it. You won't regret it. And you can always economize elsewhere.

 

Because it's REALLY hard to have to back up and re-do math the farther into you go if you skimped and used a program that really didn't quite click, and as a result your student really doesn't have the foundational skills to be able to handle Pre-Algebra/Algebra later on… WAAAYYY too many people on this Board have posted about that very struggle, so it is a real possibility...

 

BEST of luck in deciding on what math works best for YOUR family! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[kohlby]

MUS was amazing for the younger levels.  It got the basics down and was very easy to pace to the child.  We loved it!  Then I noticed that Pre-Algebra was a bit oversimplified, but the child liked it, so we continued on.  Then came Alg I.  It was extremely watered down and painfully boring for both the child and me as a result.  I'm a former high school math teacher.  Based on that, I'd say that MUS Alg I was below both honors and college prep levels even with the honors pages once it came to Alg I.  However, it was above tech prep level.  So, though I would not suggest that an average or advanced math student uses it, there are some kids who could really benefit from it.  It's better to use an easier program and understand it than a harder program and not understand it. 

 

My eldest moved out of MUS Alg I half-way through.  I wanted to love it but it just wasn't happening.  Plus, he was only in 3rd grade at that point, so I figured we had plenty of time.  He ended up starting AoPS Intro to Alg at the start of the next year, soon after he turned 9.  AoPS is known for its rigor.  My son could handle that.  So, despite MUS not being a strong program with the high school levels, he was able to move into AoPS Intro to Alg thanks to the strength of the earlier levels of MUS.

 

I did have to use two different programs for two different kids.  They are both very advanced math students.  But they learn very differently - they're gifted in math in as different ways as possible!  My middle child did MUS until half-way through Delta and then switched out to Life of Fred.  She's only in Decimals now, but I expect we'll do Foersters when she gets to Alg I.  I'd love to do the rigor of AoPS with her, but I want her to enjoy math and that's worth it more than pushing her to AoPS.  (And Foersters is still a strong program.  Even if we need to stay with LoF, I'll be fine with it).

[Mandy in TN]

Both of my big boys used at least some MUS in high school. I wish I had put my oldest, who is dyslexic, in MUS from the beginning. I wish I had left my second in Saxon because it worked for him. In other words, it was silly to feel like I had to use the same program with both boys.

 

Both of my big boys did Alg2 twice. The second time with a math tutor who also teaches honors Alg2 at a local ps. He was very patient with my oldest and worked through things as many times as necessary. He was great with my middle and encouraged him to go deeper. He also taught them how to use a graphing calculator. After this the same math tutor did a year with a Pre-Calc text. With my oldest he used more ACT prep sort of material and had him write formulas on note cards and they would discuss them nearly every week. He met him where he was and prepared him for the ACT and College Alg. My oldest took College Alg and had no problem. With my second son they went further and deeper into the pre-Calc text. His senior year my second son took a semester of college Alg and a semester of trig through dual enrollment at the community college and had no problem whatsoever. In order for the trig credit to transfer to the college he attends, ds had to take a placement test. He aced it and the college encouraged him by both snail mail and e-mail to take the placement test for Calculus. He declined as he had never taken calculus, but he has had no problem with college math. (He is finishing his second year as a computer science major. he thought discrete math his first semester was a joke.) In other words, both my boys had plenty of time after MUS to work with a tutor prior to college, and working with a good math tutor at that level is some of the best money I spent while homeschooling high school.

 

So, how do I feel about MUS is at the high school level? I think that the topics covered are explained clearly. If you have a student with LDs or a student who fears or struggles with math, MUS may be just the thing. The geometry is very proof-lite. The information the geometry covers is the very basics of what is on the ACT. A strong math student of average intelligence with no LDs can easily do MUS Alg1 and MUS Geometry at the same time prior to high school. IMHO- the student could then transition to a more rigorous high school math program.

 

OTOH- my middle ds continued with MUS Alg2 before moving on. So, instead of doing Alg1 twice with two different programs, he did Alg2 twice with two different programs. He doesn't seem to have suffered from this approach of doubling up Alg and then basically doubling up pre-Calc. Maybe he could have moved faster, but he went through some pretty serious teenage brain-fog and, in talking to him, he doesn't regret this approach. I tried to be realistic about where my boys were and their ability to move forward, and I think that is all you can do. :)

 

HTH-

Mandy

I am on my phone, so please just overlook typos.

[Abecedarian]

I read somewhere that MUS doesn't properly prepare kids for college.  Is that true?

 

So here is the painful history with our family and my unfaithfulness with MUS with eldest. We both loved MUS and I bought Abeka math tests to give him extra challenge. He rarely, if ever missed a problem. I stopped at upper elementary bc other homeschool moms convinced me it wasn't enough. Went to Saxon. We became miserable and I kept going back to my MUS curriculum for him to learn the concept and then do Saxon problems. He went from enjoying math to hating it. ( I never won him back :( )

 

So determined to regain his love for math, I went full-fledged back to MUS thru Alg 1. He became agreeable, if not enthused.

 

Once again was convinced MUS wouldn't be enough for college, I panicked and went to AoPS Intro to Algebra. I thought the challenge would motivate him. He could do the problems but his attitude surfaced again so I quit AoPS at ch 13. Still not convinced that MUS Geometry was difficult enough, we went to Jacobs Geometry and he did well. BUT I had to buy the MUS Geometry anyway bc I used it to teach him concepts and Jacobs to do problems.

 

Tried to make math fun with Life of Fred Adv Alg for Alg 2 but that was a flop because all he did was read. :confused1:

 

Thinkwell for Pre-Calc which we didn't stick with long because he did well in the problem sets but bombed the quizzes/tests. Then came ALEKS...

Math became the equivalent of a daily root canal. :cursing:

 

So obtained Chalkdust Review math to get ready for ACT. He took the ACT and was competent enough to register for the Pre-Calc class at community college and got A's.

 

The lesson for me? Quit monkeying around in the formative years if I find something that works for me as a teacher and my kid as a student. I will stick with MUS bc it works for us and then WAIT til much later to get creative. ;)

(esp. since I have never tried Foerster's...mwahaha)

 

[nitascool]

We have used MUS with 4 children my oldest is just going into the upper levels and is doing well. If you do the program in the way it has been designed...teach it, and have them teach it back to prove mastery, then you will have no issues. If your child can prove mastery from level to level then at end of Pre-Calc. he/she can go into any STEM program (if that is their wish) within their mental scope without issue.

[8filltheheart]

We have used MUS with 4 children my oldest is just going into the upper levels and is doing well. If you do the program in the way it has been designed...teach it, and have them teach it back to prove mastery, then you will have no issues. If your child can prove mastery from level to level then at end of Pre-Calc. he/she can go into any STEM program (if that is their wish) within their mental scope without issue.

I strongly disagree. MUS simply does not have the content to make what you said fact. Kids that make leaps and fill in missing info will probably be ok. Students that need to be taught info in order to know how to apply concepts to unique scenarios vs simply plug and chug, they are going to be in trouble bc MUS is not enough.

[Chris in PA]

I can only speak to our personal experience with MUS at the upper levels as we did not use it for elementary math (we used Abeka).  My dd used the geometry through pre-calculus.  She is currently an English major.  MUS was the first math I had used with her where we had no tears.  She understood the material and scored in the average range on the ACT for math.  In my opinion MUS worked for her.

 

My ds is currently doing Algebra 2.  We started the school year with MUS.  He was doing very well and the worksheets were taking him about 15 minutes a day to do.  I felt the need to supplement the MUS so I was pulling problems from a Larson text I have.  Somewhere around November he told me he felt MUS was too easy.  So we pulled the Foerster Algebra and Trig text off the shelf.  He is thriving with this book.  He now has to work for math and is forced to think.  This is my child who wants to be an actuary.  I can honestly say that MUS is no where near the challenge the Foerster text is. The problem sets are night and day.  We love how at the end of every chapter in the Foerster text there are real life word problems that are multi-step.

 

So I will say this (IMHO):  

1. MUS is a great curriculum for a parent who is not comfortable teaching math.

2. MUS is a good curriculum for a non-stem kid

3. MUS is a good curriculum for a child who hates math or struggles with it.

4. MUS covers the bases for a good, basic high school math education.

 

I tend to agree with 8Fill about being prepared for a stem major.  Your child would need to be very good at filling in missing info in order to be successful.  A student that needs to be taught would have difficulty filling in gaps.

 

To the OP, you need to choose a math curriculum that works for your child and prepares them for what they need in the future.  We have been all over the board with math.  I so wanted AoPS to work for my ds but it did not.  He hated the Introductory Algebra book.  However he is thriving in Foerster and the MWB DVD.  There are lots of choices out there.  Good luck in your search!

 

Chris

[Sunshine State Sue]

We used MUS from K through Algebra 1 finishing in 7th grade.  We supplemented for several years with Singapore's Challenging Word Problems and the last year with Life of Fred.  I loved MUS in the elementary grades, but felt that it was weak starting at Algebra.  I have a degree in math and ds is math-oriented.  I would not be comfortable using it in the high school grades with a student who leaned STEM.  OTOH, I know I have seen posts on the high school board about students who have used MUS all the way through and did fine in STEM related fields in college.  I just wasn't willing to take that chance.

 

If I had to do it all over again, I would do the same, though I would drop LoF and add Patty Paper Geometry.  In 8th grade, we used Foerster's Algebra.

 

Good luck!