Saddlemomma Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I didn't watch the debate because I'm not partial to either of those guys, but I did read some of the post comments on this board. I do subscribe to this newsletter and found their reflections of the debate interesting. If you disdain ID or the creation viewpoint, please don't bother wasting your time reading this. If, however, you have an open mind and like to explore various theories, you may find this interesting: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/02/the_ham-nye_deb081911.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hikin' Mama Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Thank you for posting this. I didn't watch the debate (lack of interest), but I found this article interesting and look forward to reading all the links. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Yes, good article. I watched the first hour, and then finished it up this morning. I agree that both missed some of the points that would have made the overall picture of each side more clear. And Bill Nye missed the boat on some of his evidence, and Ken Ham didn't go deep enough with his evidence. I would have preferred a more evidence-based debate in general, but both have tended to make more sound-bite types of statements versus longer analysis in the past, so no surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kewb Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 The quote that summed up the debate to me (and bear in mind I am on the side of science here) is the following: Debating a creationist is like playing chess with a pigeon. It knocks over all the pieces, defecates on the board and then flies home to its flock to declare victory. (source unknown) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Yes, good article. I watched the first hour, and then finished it up this morning. I agree that both missed some of the points that would have made the overall picture of each side more clear. And Bill Nye missed the boat on some of his evidence, and Ken Ham didn't go deep enough with his evidence. I would have preferred a more evidence-based debate in general, but both have tended to make more sound-bite types of statements versus longer analysis in the past, so no surprise. You can not have a deep evidence-based debate with someone who is a Young Earth Creationist. It simply is not possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalea Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 The quote that summed up the debate to me (and bear in mind I am on the side of science here) is the following: Debating a creationist is like playing chess with a pigeon. It knocks over all the pieces, defecates on the board and then flies home to its flock to declare victory. (source unknown) What a perfect summation!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrub Jay Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 The quote that summed up the debate to me (and bear in mind I am on the side of science here) is the following: Debating a creationist is like playing chess with a pigeon. It knocks over all the pieces, defecates on the board and then flies home to its flock to declare victory. (source unknown) Thank you. This made me laugh hysterically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 That was interesting! People will walk away from this debate thinking, "Ken Ham has the Bible, Bill Nye has scientific evidence." Some Christians will be satisfied by that. Other Christians (like me) who don't feel that accepting the Bible requires you to believe in a young earth will feel that their views weren't represented. And because Ham failed (whether due to time constraints, an inflexible debate strategy, lack of knowledge, inadequate debate skills, or a fundamentally weak position) to offer evidence rebutting many of Nye's arguments for an old earth, young earth creationist Christians with doubts will probably feel even more doubtful. Most notably, however, skeptics won't budge an inch. Why? Because Ham's main argument was "Because the Bible says so," and skeptics don't take the Bible as an authority. They want to see evidence. That's why I strongly prefer evidence-based approaches to origins like ID. Skeptics who say "Show me the evidence" are challenged with evidence, because that's what ID argues from -- the evidence for design in nature, not in the Bible. In a debate where people want to know what the evidence says, that moves everyone in the right direction. Oh wait, no it wasn't. It was more of the same: "We have evidence! Really we do!" Cue the misleading information, ignorant premises, and assumptions as fact. Really, if there is one piece of evidence that supports a creator god poofing the whole world into existence, that evidence would be heralded as the freaking holy grail of science. That would be the biggest discovery of all time, past, present and future. The person who could provide this evidence would become a hero in science, religion, and convert millions if not billions of souls to whatever religion they subscribe to. Their name would be bigger than Isaac Newton, bigger than Albert Einstein. They would be the king of the freaking world. And the scientific community would hail them like a Roman conqueror of ignorance. One piece of evidence. Just one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Just saw this, and as it pertains to my last comment about misinformation (in this case, outright lies), I thought I'd share: You can see it at minute 41:12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Just read that even Pat Robertson is "begging Ken Ham to shut up". Going on to say that "to say it all dates back to 6,000 years ago is just nonsense." And, "Let's be real. Let's not make a joke of ourselves." And I gotta say...I agree with Pat Robertson. :svengo: That almost never happens. Here's one link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/05/pat-robertson-creationism-ken-ham_n_4733625.html And if you want a conservative source for it, here's another (a few typos in this one): http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2014/02/05/Pat-Robertson-Pushes-Back-on-Young-Earth-Creationism-There-Aint-No-Way-Thats-Possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freckles Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 YEC here. Just wondering why people feel the need to express their opinions with such vitriol against people who don't agree with you. I don't agree with major aspects of Evolution or Old earth (even though I used to), but I don't tear down, insult, or call whole groups of people who participate on this forum stupid for not agreeing with me. I'm referring to all of the threads I've read on this subject. My husband has two Masters degrees; he is not stupid. I have a degree in Science. I'm not stupid. I can learn about other viewpoints without agreeing or being mean. I find it interesting the posters that are constantly talking about tolerance are the least tolerant about others having their own convictions and understanding of the world around us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saddlemomma Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 That was interesting! Oh wait, no it wasn't. It was more of the same: "We have evidence! Really we do!" Cue the misleading information, ignorant premises, and assumptions as fact. Really, if there is one piece of evidence that supports a creator god poofing the whole world into existence, that evidence would be heralded as the freaking holy grail of science. That would be the biggest discovery of all time, past, present and future. The person who could provide this evidence would become a hero in science, religion, and convert millions if not billions of souls to whatever religion they subscribe to. Their name would be bigger than Isaac Newton, bigger than Albert Einstein. They would be the king of the freaking world. And the scientific community would hail them like a Roman conqueror of ignorance. One piece of evidence. Just one. I'm still waiting for evidence from Darwinian Evolution...one....just one piece of evidence rather than the same old rhetoric. OR some shred of proof that there isn't a creator God poofing the whole world into existence. That would truly be the biggest discovery of all time: past, present, & future. Anyway, that's why I prefaced this thread with, "If you have disdain for ID or Creationism, please don't waste your time..." Obviously you either ignored that part or felt compelled to once again try to "educate" those who hold a different philosophy than you do. Why can't you just be "tolerant" and let us be? Not everyone is going to agree with you. Agree to disagree and ignore these types of threads. Go participate in all those naturalistic, materialistic, ID & Creationist bashing threads out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Tolerance does not mean smiling and nodding at inaccurate claims. Tolerance means accepting that someone has the right to their beliefs, not that someone must accept the belief. Tolerance means that no one will beat you or throw you in jail or criminalize your opinions. One has to be able to say what they think of a concept or idea without that brig construed as a personal attack on any person who has that belief. People say a lot of things about ideas and beliefs that I have and I don't take them as a personal attack on me. If it is ok to say that nearly every scientist is flat out wrong about evolution or that non-believers are going to hell without that being intolerant, it is certainly ok to say that YE creationism is not supported by credible evidence and to make light of some of the more fantastical claims put forth by the likes of Ham. OE evolution is not incompatible with religious faith or Christianity. To turn the Bible and specifically Genesis into a science text is to strip it of meaning and significance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 My best friend is a staunch Atheist. A few years back she and another atheist friend and a Christian friend of BFF were out to dinner. BFF was having a very difficult year and the Christian friend prayed for her. After the Christian friend left, the atheist friend turned on her and was angry. She demanded to know why she would allow her to pray for her or even why she hangs out with her. BFF replied "Because she is my friend and I care about her. I may not agree with her beliefs, and she certainly doesn't agree with mine, but she obviously cares about me enough to include me in her prayers, and she shows me all the time that I matter, even with fundamental differences in certain viewpoints. I think that is worthy of continuing a friendship." I am not a YEC, but I did not come on this thread to bash those who believe in this. I came to read about other viewpoints. It clearly states at the beginning of this thread (as OP as now reiterated) that if you do not have the same viewpoint, please don't waste your time here, please go to other threads to discuss your viewpoint on this matter. I respect that. I think others should, too. Best wishes to Saddlemomma and Freckles. I hope your thread cleans up and you can share your thoughts on the debate in peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 YEC here. Just wondering why people feel the need to express their opinions with such vitriol against people who don't agree with you. I don't agree with major aspects of Evolution or Old earth (even though I used to), but I don't tear down, insult, or call whole groups of people who participate on this forum stupid for not agreeing with me. I'm referring to all of the threads I've read on this subject. My husband has two Masters degrees; he is not stupid. I have a degree in Science. I'm not stupid. I can learn about other viewpoints without agreeing or being mean. I find it interesting the posters that are constantly talking about tolerance are the least tolerant about others having their own convictions and understanding of the world around us. It's not vitriol to point out that which does not confirm a bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I didn't add to this thread to bash anyone but to point out that it is not intolerant to reject YEC vigorously. Tolerance is a word that is too often misused and misunderstood. People are being called intolerant and yet are not tolerated on the thread by those calling for tolerance. If one wants a one sided discussion I can't help point out that the general chat forum of a general interest/diverse homeschool board might not be the best venue. Surely there are social groups and other boards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Vehemently rejecting someone else's beliefs on a post that clearly states they would like to discuss this without that just seems insensitive to me. There are plenty of threads where the posters are welcoming debate and different viewpoints. This one was specifically asking those with a different viewpoint to stay away. I would hope people would want to respect that. I will probably get my head bitten off for saying so, but I know, if I were the OP and had asked for similar parameters to be respected I would very much hope people would be kind enough to listen. Best wishes to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freckles Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 There are social groups and other boards for your beliefs as well. I come to this board to read all view points, but I don't come to this board to berate others and be berated. We can give our ideas, beliefs, convictions, whatever... All I'm asking is for the unkindness to stop. You don't have to believe what I believe. I'm not asking you too, but I'm not going to change my beliefs just because you think I'm stupid, uneducated, ignorant, foolish, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I didn't add to this thread to bash anyone but to point out that it is not intolerant to reject YEC vigorously. Tolerance is a word that is too often misused and misunderstood. People are being called intolerant and yet are not tolerated on the thread by those calling for tolerance. If one wants a one sided discussion I can't help point out that the general chat forum of a general interest/diverse homeschool board might not be the best venue. Surely there are social groups and other boards? Except that the OP clearly asked that those who don't believe in creationism to desist from posting (you guys might not realize it, but many of you post with disdain -- incredulous contempt? -- when addressing this topic). With that being the case, the OP asking those with disdain to not post, comparing creationists to dirty messy pigeons who are too stupid to play chess seems pretty out of place, no? And then to have some back-slapping, good ol' boy "heh heh, good one!" replies following? Pretty tacky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I'm still waiting for evidence from Darwinian Evolution...one....just one piece of evidence rather than the same old rhetoric. You might find evolution101 a good place to start. The information available is introduced for the non-scientist, specifically for educators. I would encourage you to familiarize yourself with what the theory of evolution is by reading about it from a non-religious source. OR some shred of proof that there isn't a creator God poofing the whole world into existence. That would truly be the biggest discovery of all time: past, present, & future. Impossible. If your god exists, he exists outside our natural world. The scientific method is a process by which the natural world can be explored. The two are incompatible. If your god exists, he must reveal himself supernaturally, by definition, and this is what we historically call "divine revelation." The scientific method cannot address that by definition. The burden of proof is on the claim that a creator god did in fact create the world. Anyway, that's why I prefaced this thread with, "If you have disdain for ID or Creationism, please don't waste your time..." Obviously you either ignored that part or felt compelled to once again try to "educate" those who hold a different philosophy than you do. Why can't you just be "tolerant" and let us be? Not everyone is going to agree with you. Agree to disagree and ignore these types of threads. Go participate in all those naturalistic, materialistic, ID & Creationist bashing threads out there. Pointing out information that conflicts with a bias is not "disdain." The article you linked includes faulty information and promotes assumptions as fact. Hearing about this in reply to the offer of an "interesting viewpoint" should not be confused with "disdain." Education, on the other hand, is why we are here. It's what we all have in common - education of our children. Not all information is educational, and it's not intolerant to mention this, it's just not supportive. In the same way I would (and have) comment about historical inaccuracies, I comment about known scientific inaccuracies. As an educator, we should be able to discuss the merits of such topics of conversation without resorting to accusations and character assassination. I'm not here to "educate those who hold a different philosophy," but to contribute to an interesting point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnificent_baby Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 YEC here. Just wondering why people feel the need to express their opinions with such vitriol against people who don't agree with you. I don't agree with major aspects of Evolution or Old earth (even though I used to), but I don't tear down, insult, or call whole groups of people who participate on this forum stupid for not agreeing with me. I'm referring to all of the threads I've read on this subject. My husband has two Masters degrees; he is not stupid. I have a degree in Science. I'm not stupid. I can learn about other viewpoints without agreeing or being mean. I find it interesting the posters that are constantly talking about tolerance are the least tolerant about others having their own convictions and understanding of the world around us. :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: Threads like this really push me away from the board. One of the last Ham threads was just downright rude, insinuating people that agree with his viewpoints are dumb. DH has a master's in science, and I'm currently working on mine. Maybe it's time for a board break for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 One has to be able to say what they think of a concept or idea without that brig construed as a personal attack on any person who has that belief. People say a lot of things about ideas and beliefs that I have and I don't take them as a personal attack on me. Sure, but that doesn't mean the accusations are never valid—including in this thread. I am not a YEC, but I think it would be silly for anyone to claim, for example, that the pigeon quote mentioned above is not a personal attack on creationists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 YEC here. Just wondering why people feel the need to express their opinions with such vitriol against people who don't agree with you. I don't agree with major aspects of Evolution or Old earth (even though I used to), but I don't tear down, insult, or call whole groups of people who participate on this forum stupid for not agreeing with me. I'm referring to all of the threads I've read on this subject. My husband has two Masters degrees; he is not stupid. I have a degree in Science. I'm not stupid. I can learn about other viewpoints without agreeing or being mean. I find it interesting the posters that are constantly talking about tolerance are the least tolerant about others having their own convictions and understanding of the world around us. I don't believe anyone has called YECers stupid (most aren't.) I will say, without hesitation, that anyone with those beliefs lacks a fundamental understanding of what the theory of evolution actually says, the current evidence supporting evolution, and that they also are basing their opinions on a belief that is lacking any credible scientific evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 For anyone interested in some of the scientific evidence that form rebuttals for YEC, there are a lot of interesting articles on this website: http://www.oldearth.org It is a Christian based website for people who believe both in Christianity and in an old earth. It talks about many of the issues surrounding the discussion too. It doesn't show disdain or contempt for those who disagree with them. Hope this helps! :) One thing that might improve your board experience is using the ignore function so that you don't see posts from certain people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I am not a YEC, but I did not come on this thread to bash those who believe in this. I came to read about other viewpoints. It clearly states at the beginning of this thread (as OP as now reiterated) that if you do not have the same viewpoint, please don't waste your time here, please go to other threads to discuss your viewpoint on this matter. I respect that. I think others should, too. Best wishes to Saddlemomma and Freckles. I hope your thread cleans up and you can share your thoughts on the debate in peace. The bolded is false. She stated "If you disdain ID or the creation viewpoint, please don't bother wasting your time reading this." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Except that the OP clearly asked that those who don't believe in creationism to desist from posting (you guys might not realize it, but many of you post with disdain -- incredulous contempt? -- when addressing this topic). With that being the case, the OP asking those with disdain to not post, comparing creationists to dirty messy pigeons who are too stupid to play chess seems pretty out of place, no? And then to have some back-slapping, good ol' boy "heh heh, good one!" replies following? Pretty tacky. She did not state the bolded. She said "If you disdain ID or the creation viewpoint, please don't bother wasting your time reading this." Changing her words to call the rest of us off is pretty tacky as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I don't believe anyone has called YECers stupid (most aren't.) I will say, without hesitation, that anyone with those beliefs lacks a fundamental understanding of what the theory of evolution actually says, the current evidence supporting evolution, and that they also are basing their opinions on a belief that is lacking any credible scientific evidence. Then I don't think you have read the other posts terribly closely. I think that is being implied and rather clearly in some instances. Again, they have asked for certain boundaries to be respected on this post and apparently some people are incapable of respecting those boundaries. Why? Why are the people that are posting on here against YEC posting in fhe first place when the OP has specifically asked that you not? What are you hoping to gain? That suddenly, despite some of the rude comments, they will go "Oh my gosh...you are RIGHT! I am dumping my belief system immediately. What was I thinking?" They did not start this post for a debate. Why try to turn it into one, when the OP clearly stated she did not want that? I do not think a moderator would be terribly happy with how quickly people stopped following the OPs original requested guidelines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freckles Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I don't believe anyone has called YECers stupid (most aren't.) I will say, without hesitation, that anyone with those beliefs lacks a fundamental understanding of what the theory of evolution actually says, the current evidence supporting evolution, and that they also are basing their opinions on a belief that is lacking any credible scientific evidence. I have a fundamental understanding of what the theory of evolution says. I just start out with a different philosophy or world view. My outlook and understanding of all things is God centered not man centered. I am not a humanist. Two different world views and perceptions when we look at things. That's okay. I'm not trying to make anybody agree with me. When I die I'll find out the areas of all my beliefs and understanding of life that may be faulty. I'm pretty sure we will all be a bit surprised when we take our final breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I will say, without hesitation, that anyone with those beliefs lacks a fundamental understanding of what the theory of evolution actually says, the current evidence supporting evolution, and that they also are basing their opinions on a belief that is lacking any credible scientific evidence. I think part of the problem is an inherent disconnect in the general public with regard to a fundamental understanding of evolution. Most people who agree with the theory of evolution don't really understand it. Many science museums present outdated information. Many people (on both sides of the issue) conflate the theory of evolution with wider theories about how life on earth started on earth like the theory of abiogenesis. It makes it difficult to discuss because few people are starting with the same assumptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 OP, apparently many people posting here are not understanding what you were trying to say are your guidelines (although they seemed abundantly clear to me). Perhaps you should restate them so that others can more clearly understand what you were hoping to accomplish with this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I think part of the problem is an inherent disconnect in the general public with regard to a fundamental understanding of evolution. Most people who agree with the theory of evolution don't really understand it. Many science museums present outdated information. Many people (on both sides of the issue) conflate the theory of evolution with wider theories about how life on earth started on earth like the theory of abiogenesis. It makes it difficult to discuss because few people are starting with the same assumptions. That is very true, and when you think about it, quite unusual when compared to most scientific theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 . You don't have to believe what I believe. I'm not asking you too, but I'm not going to change my beliefs just because you think I'm stupid, uneducated, ignorant, foolish, etc... This was the most interesting part of the debate for me, when Ken Ham implied the same thing. He didn't talk about changing beliefs because people might think those beliefs are stupid, uneducated, ignorant of foolish, but he did say very confidently that he will not change his beliefs. This to me is telling, it is the ultimate pillar upon which this creationism hypothesis is built - a belief that will not change regardless of any evidence to the contrary, because it is based on belief and trust that the bible is accurate and true and good. I understand that most people are not scientists, do not take the years of study, instruction, practical application of the scientific method, and essentially rely on experts who do. I think some people tend to trust a certain argument for reasons that are unrelated to the scientific method. Ken Ham did his best to interject these fears throughout the debate (morality, marriage, enjoyment of life, etc). To discuss these issues on a home education board is to open the arguments up for scrutiny, to be analyzed and reviewed by peers (in this case, other home educators). However, the idea that one would boast a belief without concern for the criticism it generations suggests to me a kind of stubbornness that is difficult to tip-toe around. How do we do that? How do we have a conversation when someone says they are unwilling to be flexible based on introduction of new information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 She did not state the bolded. She said "If you disdain ID or the creation viewpoint, please don't bother wasting your time reading this." Changing her words to call the rest of us off is pretty tacky as well. Well, if you don't read, you can't reply (in a knowledgeable way), correct? Well, you could I suppose. It just might not make sense if you don't know what you're posting about (since you didn't read it per the OP's request). I didn't really change her words so much as interpret her meaning (I don't think I was far off). You can see why she put what she did. Rather than the discussion she was looking for, she got the same old tired defense about who's got the more reasonable and understandable belief system. I probably worded things poorly, but have a Skype call coming in calling me to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Then I don't think you have read the other posts terribly closely. I think that is being implied and rather clearly in some instances. Again, they have asked for certain boundaries to be respected on this post and apparently some people are incapable of respecting those boundaries. Why? Why are the people that are posting on here against YEC posting in fhe first place when the OP has specifically asked that you not? What are you hoping to gain? That suddenly, despite some of the rude comments, they will go "Oh my gosh...you are RIGHT! I am dumping my belief system immediately. What was I thinking?" They did not start this post for a debate. Why try to turn it into one, when the OP clearly stated she did not want that? I do not think a moderator would be terribly happy with how quickly people stopped following the OPs original requested guidelines. It really doesn't matter what she implies. She posted a link about a hot topic on the board. She should expect others to read that link and comment on it. Frankly, saying anyone who disagrees with it shouldn't even read it was quite dismissive on her part. And btw, saying someone else shouldn't read the link isn't "posting guidelines" for the thread. And yes, people have changed their minds based on the discussions on this board (and others.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 However, the idea that one would boast a belief without concern for the criticism it generations suggests to me a kind of stubbornness that is difficult to tip-toe around. How do we do that? How do we have a conversation when someone says they are unwilling to be flexible based on introduction of new information? She was apparently hoping to just visit on some things with like minded individuals. She was trying to make it clear at the beginning of the post that she did not want a discussion that could easily dissolve into determining the validity of YEC. Anyone disagreeing with her is not forced to participate. You don't have to tiptoe around the conversation. Just don't participate. They would like to discuss this in peace. I am really baffled that so many are so unwilling to give them that space on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vida Winter Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I didn't watch the debate because I'm not partial to either of those guys, but I did read some of the post comments on this board. I do subscribe to this newsletter and found their reflections of the debate interesting. If you disdain ID or the creation viewpoint, please don't bother wasting your time reading this. If, however, you have an open mind and like to explore various theories, you may find this interesting: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/02/the_ham-nye_deb081911.html Thank you for posting this, especially for those of us who did not agree with either side on this debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freckles Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 This was the most interesting part of the debate for me, when Ken Ham implied the same thing. He didn't talk about changing beliefs because people might think those beliefs are stupid, uneducated, ignorant of foolish, but he did say very confidently that he will not change his beliefs. This to me is telling, it is the ultimate pillar upon which this creationism hypothesis is built - a belief that will not change regardless of any evidence to the contrary, because it is based on belief and trust that the bible is accurate and true and good. I understand that most people are not scientists, do not take the years of study, instruction, practical application of the scientific method, and essentially rely on experts who do. I think some people tend to trust a certain argument for reasons that are unrelated to the scientific method. Ken Ham did his best to interject these fears throughout the debate (morality, marriage, enjoyment of life, etc). To discuss these issues on a home education board is to open the arguments up for scrutiny, to be analyzed and reviewed by peers (in this case, other home educators). However, the idea that one would boast a belief without concern for the criticism it generations suggests to me a kind of stubbornness that is difficult to tip-toe around. How do we do that? How do we have a conversation when someone says they are unwilling to be flexible based on introduction of new information? I'm all for the discussion without the name calling for lack of a better term. I completely understand that your views on the subject are your truth, but my world is God centered. He works outside of our understanding. What I'm trying to say is that I believe he created everything on Earth and beyond Earth and its boundaries, linear timeline, etc... I don't claim to understand everything because I don't. However, I don't simply base my beliefs on hard science alone. So, to restate, I enjoy learning from other viewpoints, but I'm tired of the unkindness. There are parts of evolution that I agree with, but much I do not. As I've said before, I come from a different world view, a different lens I'm looking at life through. So, we can agree to disagree and enjoy the conversation a long the way. I may come across as stubborn to you, but from my viewpoint the other side is just as stubborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 YEC here. Just wondering why people feel the need to express their opinions with such vitriol against people who don't agree with you. I don't agree with major aspects of Evolution or Old earth (even though I used to), but I don't tear down, insult, or call whole groups of people who participate on this forum stupid for not agreeing with me. I'm referring to all of the threads I've read on this subject. My husband has two Masters degrees; he is not stupid. I have a degree in Science. I'm not stupid. I can learn about other viewpoints without agreeing or being mean. There are social groups and other boards for your beliefs as well. I come to this board to read all view points, but I don't come to this board to berate others and be berated. We can give our ideas, beliefs, convictions, whatever... All I'm asking is for the unkindness to stop. You don't have to believe what I believe. I'm not asking you too, but I'm not going to change my beliefs just because you think I'm stupid, uneducated, ignorant, foolish, etc... Except that the OP clearly asked that those who don't believe in creationism to desist from posting (you guys might not realize it, but many of you post with disdain -- incredulous contempt? -- when addressing this topic). With that being the case, the OP asking those with disdain to not post, comparing creationists to dirty messy pigeons who are too stupid to play chess seems pretty out of place, no? And then to have some back-slapping, good ol' boy "heh heh, good one!" replies following? Pretty tacky. Sure, but that doesn't mean the accusations are never valid—including in this thread. I am not a YEC, but I think it would be silly for anyone to claim, for example, that the pigeon quote mentioned above is not a personal attack on creationists. :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: Disagreement isn't the problem. The insinuation that those who disagree with you are complete morons is the problem. And that kind of attitude often goes both ways in this kind of discussion, so I'm not picking on either side. Many people can disagree respectfully and still manage to get their points across. The snide comments serve no purpose other than to upset people, and aside from being unnecessary, I am pretty sure they also violate forum rules. I don't care whether or not anyone here believes in creation or evolution or that we are all descended from aliens from outer space. It doesn't matter to me. What does matter is when I see people I like (on both sides of the argument) being treated like they are clueless, dimwitted, and uneducated if they believe in creation -- or that they are evil and will end up with a window seat on the bus to Hell if they believe in evolution. Both arguments are just plain ridiculous, and more than that, they are mean, yet many threads on this topic have ended up being locked by the moderators for just that reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 To be fair, if I was on a bus to hell I would definitely want a window seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 To be fair, if I was on a bus to hell I would definitely want a window seat. As in understand it, it would be a one-way trip, so it makes sense that you'd want to make the best of it. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saddlemomma Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 OP, apparently many people posting here are not understanding what you were trying to say are your guidelines (although they seemed abundantly clear to me). Perhaps you should restate them so that others can more clearly understand what you were hoping to accomplish with this thread. Nah....not worth it. But thanks for the opportunity anyway. I really just thought I would share an interesting article about a different take on the debate, and how the same science can be interpreted by valid scientists in different ways, plus introduce current scientific trends and their implications while trying to stay away from this perpetual contention surrounding this topic. I guess that blew up in my face. This has just become a run-away train wreck. I don't have a problem with YEC, OEC, or IDers. I started out as a YEC, but my views are "evolving"...lol...the more I study (however never towards atheism/naturalism/materialism). I'm not a theistic evolutionist, but am leaning more towards OEC/ID. That, however, doesn't mean I don't value and respect YECs and their thoughts. Everyone has a different viewpoint, and I greatly respect that. I'm just sick of certain people evangelizing to YECs, OECs & IDers about how ignorant, uneducated, and stupid we are. Unfortunately, because of all the negative rhetoric and elitist attitudes by proponents of Darwinian Evolution, I find I don't even take them seriously anymore and skip over anything they have to say or evidence they wish to promote. That's a shame, but I'm just totally turned off, burned out, and tired of getting upset about being called stupid and uneducated at this point. Thanks to everyone who tried to keep this thread what it was intended for, and I will definitely be employing those filter buttons ASAP. Thanks for that heads up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Except that the OP clearly asked that those who don't believe in creationism to desist from posting (you guys might not realize it, but many of you post with disdain -- incredulous contempt? -- when addressing this topic). 1. If I post about a controversial subject in a diverse group, I expect mixed answers. If someone wants to talk to only people that they agree with, then a mixed forum isn't a great choice. 2. You who? I speak for myself, and myself alone. It is impossible to read tone. What some see as jest, others will read as contempt. Just like people tend to think their guy "won" a debate even when there is no objective measure of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 lol...the more I study (however never towards atheism/naturalism/materialism). I'm curios. If you studied and found information that did not confirm your religious beliefs, or information that outright contradicted them, would you ignore it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freckles Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Saddlemomma, thanks for trying! I enjoyed the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 1. If I post about a controversial subject in a diverse group, I expect mixed answers. If someone wants to talk to only people that they agree with, then a mixed forum isn't a great choice. 2. You who? I speak for myself, and myself alone. It is impossible to read tone. What some see as jest, others will read as contempt. Just like people tend to think their guy "won" a debate even when there is no objective measure of that. 1. Except that mature adults should be able to manage it and politely honor someone's request. I've seen it happen. I recall one thread here in particular where someone was looking for religious/Christian guidance, and she wanted to stick with a view of Christianity that saw God as triune. She stated so. Those Christians who do not see God as triune politely refrained from posting. And this was a thread that went on for pages and days. It never devolved into a debate about the trinitarian nature of God, not even after numerous dozens of posts -- unlike this topic which always seems to devolve within about three posts. The OP of that religious thread was very thankful and said so publicly to the non-trinitarian Christians. 2. Yes, it was a general "you" that I knew/know doesn't include everyone who takes the non-faith side of the creation issue. But I don't think the pigeon story can be seen as anything but demeaning no matter who reads it. It was demeaning and was (case in point) reply #3. I didn't even count before I made my note above about these types of threads devolving within three posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 1. Except that mature adults should be able to manage it and politely honor someone's request. I've seen it happen. I recall one thread here in particular where someone was looking for religious/Christian guidance, and she wanted to stick with a view of Christianity that saw God as triune. She stated so. Those Christians who do not see God as triune politely refrained from posting. And this was a thread that went on for pages and days. It never devolved into a debate about the trinitarian nature of God, not even after numerous dozens of posts -- unlike this topic which always seems to devolve within about three posts. The OP of that religious thread was very thankful and said so publicly to the non-trinitarian Christians. 2. Yes, it was a general "you" that I knew/know doesn't include everyone who takes non-faith side of the creation issue. But I don't think the pigeon story can be seen as anything but demeaning no matter who reads it. It was demeaning and was (case in point) reply #3. I didn't even count before I made my note above about these types of threads devolving within three posts. And where was that request made again? Right. It wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJosMom Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I didn't watch the debate because I'm not partial to either of those guys, but I did read some of the post comments on this board. I do subscribe to this newsletter and found their reflections of the debate interesting. If you disdain ID or the creation viewpoint, please don't bother wasting your time reading this. If, however, you have an open mind and like to explore various theories, you may find this interesting: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/02/the_ham-nye_deb081911.html Thank you for the link. It was an interesting read. I'm sorry that the resident belligerent, obnoxious anti-theists felt the need to derail your thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Mature adults should also be able to hear opinions they don't like. The OP asks people who don't have her viewpoint to not bother reading the link. I think it is silly to expect to fully control the flow of a thread posted in a very mixed forum. There are plenty of places that people can talk into an echo chamber if they wish. And FWIW, anyone thinking that I am militant about anything, much less this is off the mark. I am not an anti-thiest by any stretch of the imagination. I even planned to be a nun at one point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Honestly, I thought the requests for one side were just to notify people that they are coming from that POV. I came to this conclusion after several of my requests for secular information was met with very Christian resources (Abeka, VP, Apolgia ect). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 And where was that request made again? Right. It wasn't. Mature adults can also infer some things. It's the way of the world. I'm sure there are things you want/hope your s.o, friends and kids to infer from the things you say. OP said that those who disdain creation (and there are plenty here) didn't need to read the story. The implication was/is that if you don't read it, you can't really get involved in the discussion. She wanted to discuss with people open to discussing what was in the link without going into the same old, same old debate. Her desire for this thread not to become what it's become is not really as questionable as you're trying to imply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts