An interesting viewpoint on the Nye/Ham debate...

[LucyStoner]

At least I am not intolerant of humor.

 

People have called out not just that pigeon quote but also any jest about YEC claims as terrible. Is there to be no jest? No levity? Comedy may not always be comfortable but that doesn't make it is a display of "intolerance". If we can't laugh a drawing of a vegan t-Rex supposedly able to clutch n' munch, what exactly can be laughed at?

 

This tolerance thing goes all ways people. It is not being intolerant of me to disagree with me.

[awisha.]

Maybe the OP should remember to put CC in her threads title next time.

 

Or have a big ol' CHRISTIANS ONLY disclaimer at the start of their posts.

[albeto.]

It was funny, so it's not rude? Is that your initial argument? I think LOADS of things are funny that are clearly rude.

 

The second half of your argument is the *same* mischaracterization that Sadie made. The OP didn't ask people to refrain from posting information. I can *once again* point out that I actually provided information that refutes her argument, but she didn't get upset at me for that. Therefore, *once again*, this claim is demonstrably false.

 

The pigeon comment refers to the debate, she said so at the time. Ken Ham, not the OP.

 

The comment is funny for those who have engaged in calm, constructive debates with people who they interpret to act just like a pigeon, declaring victory never having played the actual game, while leaving behind nothing but crap. Ken Ham's production last night arguably qualifies here. Funny stuff.

 

I also shared information in my post that refutes the claims made by the OP and her link, and yet she got upset with me. Go figure. 

[albeto.]

Maybe the OP should remember to put CC in her threads title next time.

 

Or have a big ol' CHRISTIANS ONLY disclaimer at the start of their posts.

 

 

Or take it to a private subgroup.

[Mrs Mungo]

So, you feel free to disregard the board rules in favor of your *own* feelings about how things should be run? Interesting. This thread was clearly a waste of time on the part of the OP. It's really too bad.

[Aelwydd]

The comment was, arguably, funny to many people. Considering Ken Ham claimed victory when some 92% of people responding to a poll in Christianity Today overwhelmingly voted in favor of Bill Nye doing a better job presenting the facts, it's not too far off the mark, either. Ham offered no evidence, as the bible cannot be used as evidence to support the claims it makes. The link the OP provided does this same thing, albeit in a more nuanced way. It provides more sophisticated responses than "goddidit," but ultimately, they are based on assumptions, misinterpreted information, misrepresent facts, and are used as a means to rationalize a belief in the judeo-christian creation myth. Some people post lengthy replies, some people make their points succinctly. Humor doesn't extend to everyone equally, and I've been told to "lighten up" when I've commented on things I thought were wholly inappropriate, rude, and aggressive towards other posters even. Apparently, diff'rent strokes. That the thread has evolved into a kind of Miss Manners debate about what's too impolite to be allowed is a nice illustration of traditional privilege not being honored. It should be inconceivable to promote ignorance in a classical home education community, or to ask people to censor information and comments to protect the feelings of those who really don't want to hear contradictions to their beliefs. If the OP wants a "safe" place to share her religious takes on science, she could find one of the private groups here and share it with people who aren't likely to crack jokes at Ken Ham's expense.

There's no sacred cow here. You and I and others could certainly make hamburger meat of the YE "science" on this thread.

 

We could also, conversely, start our own s/o thread and do so there. That's not protectionism, that's practicing mutual respect. I sure don't appreciate threads geared towards progressives getting crashed by evangelistic conservatives. Yes, it's a board for classical education, but not every thread needs to be a debate.

 

As I said, I am not sympathetic to Saddlemomma's beliefs. I find some of them untenable. I kindly suggest that best method of establishing the credibility one's viewpoint is to create a thread with a specific premise to that end. Assailing YE proponents on a this thread makes us look like a bunch of unrelenting hyenas.

 

I'd rather not cede the higher ground, but that's just my $0.02. My last contribution to this thread!

[Lady Florida.]

My opinion--the OP is not a newbie and knew exactly what sort of thread she would get.  She has to know that, it's been done a million times already. Then starting the "a mature person would know to infer" bit is just as ridiculous as the direction of the thread.

 

 

This, exactly. The OP even said in another thread (addressing the OP of that other thread) that anything to do with evolution is a hot topic here. So, she obviously already knew before starting this thread that it could go in a direction she might not appreciate. She can't claim ignorance of how a topic like this might end up.

[Joker]

This, exactly. The OP even said in another thread (addressing the OP of that other thread) that anything to do with evolution is a hot topic here. So, she obviously already knew before starting this thread that it could go in a direction she might not appreciate. She can't claim ignorance of how a topic like this might end up.

 

 She said that after her own thread started going downhill. Maybe she then came to realize this is just another area that can't be discussed reasonably here. I don't feel she knew the way it would go (but I do think some posters knew how their posts would be taken and still decided to stir the pot).

[TCB]

One thing that might improve your board experience is using the ignore function so that you don't see posts from certain people.

 

How do you put someone on ignore? I used to know, but I don't think I've used it since the new forum started.

[albeto.]

So, you feel free to disregard the board rules in favor of your *own* feelings about how things should be run? Interesting. This thread was clearly a waste of time on the part of the OP. It's really too bad.

 

Don't be silly. I'm reminding you that people comment according to subjective reasons, reasons that will not be shared by everybody. To derail a conversation for the sake of playing the role of the manners police is ridiculous, in my very own subjectively derived opinion. There's been more conversation about one single comment than is necessary. One poster made a comment that some appreciated, others didn't. Most people moved on. Most. It's okay to move on. Most people do in other threads as well, and the inconsistency between playing the role of the manners police in one thread while neglecting the opportunities in others is something that hasn't escaped everyone's attention. The OP's mistake might have been in thinking there would be no disagreement with such a controversial subject. Perhaps her mistake was to think there is a legitimate debate in this subject.  Perhaps her mistake was to think that the only alternative to respect is disdain. Who knows. Your point has been made, it won't be agreed with by everyone. Same with my point. And all of our points here. 

[Saddlemomma]

This, exactly. The OP even said in another thread (addressing the OP of that other thread) that anything to do with evolution is a hot topic here. So, she obviously already knew before starting this thread that it could go in a direction she might not appreciate. She can't claim ignorance of how a topic like this might end up.

 

If you look at the timing of this OP and the timing of when I responded to that post you are referring to, you will notice I made that post AFTER this OP and the flack it generated.

 

Secondly, I thought (wrong on my part) by placing this post on the Chat forum and not the Educational forum, and not originally posting my personal view but just posting an interesting alternate view, and prefacing my posting with what I did, that maybe, just maybe, we could all be adults, read the link and mull it over between YE, OE, and IDers. OBVIOUSLY that's not what has happened.  Too bad.

[AlmiraGulch]

I still don't understand what the problem is, really.

 

If you post something, unless it's a JAWM post, and people reply with opinions that differ from your own, why is that so problematic?  Who cares if people don't have the same world view?  Why is that so threatening to some people?

[albeto.]

If you look at the timing of this OP and the timing of when I responded to that post you are referring to, you will notice I made that post AFTER this OP and the flack it generated.

 

Secondly, I thought (wrong on my part) by placing this post on the Chat forum and not the Educational forum, and not originally posting my personal view but just posting an interesting alternate view, and prefacing my posting with what I did, that maybe, just maybe, we could all be adults, read the link and mull it over between YE, OE, and IDers. OBVIOUSLY that's not what has happened.  Too bad.

 

If you look back at the beginning of the thread, accusations of "vitriol" were made after two comments that disagreed with the claims you sponsored (for lack of better word) by linking that article. One was short, a personal opinion, and was found to be humorous by some, not so by others.  That particular thing happens all the time here (comments being found humorous by some, not so by others). No one continued with that caricature until the poster came back (some five? hours later) to explain. By that time, the wagons had been circled and accusations had flown that people are always and constantly tearing down, insulting, or calling whole groups of people who participate on this forum stupid. We are adults, and we don't always agree. This should not come as a surprise. 

[Mrs Mungo]

How do you put someone on ignore? I used to know, but I don't think I've used it since the new forum started.

You click on your name up at top, then "manage ignore prefs." There is a box where you will be able to type in names and add them to your ignore list.

 

Back to the general thread: I am *stunned* at some people's knack for self-delusion. It's impressive.

[Saddlemomma]

CC next time might help. It's like a sign showing a room is booked for a particular group.

 

I was not aware of that. Thank you for the info.

[milovany]

CC next time might help. It's like a sign showing a room is booked for a particular group.

 

Although I've been told by atheists here that CC to them doesn't mean that they can't come into the "room" and post their opposing viewpoints. Instead it means something like the OP is coming from one perspective, but others can also share their own perspectives, even if opposing.  So, CC means different things to different people and putting it doesn't really solve the issue.  I feel like how she handled it in the original post was the best option she had to try and keep the discussion focused on the link and not on the general science vs. creationism debate, and to try and keep the disdain out of it.  It still went south within three replies.  Too bad.  It was an interesting link. 

[PollyOR]

 

I have had many discussions in my life with people of diametrically opposing viewpoints to mine, where we were not trying to prove the other wrong, or imply they are stupid or uneducated, but simply to share our views and come to a better understanding.  

 

:thumbup1:

[PollyOR]

For an example of a thread that stayed civil ... http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/345246-the-unscientific-american-watches-a-mammal-walk-into-the-water-and-grow-fins/

 

Lewelma did a great job of keeping it on topic which many people appreciated.  It can be done. :)

 

 

 

edited to change the link to the first page of the thread

[milovany]

For an example of a thread that stayed civil ... http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/345246-the-unscientific-american-watches-a-mammal-walk-into-the-water-and-grow-fins/?p=3584683

 

Lewelma did a great job of keeping it on topic which many people appreciated.  It can be done. :)

 

You should edit your post to say DO NOT REPLY TO THE OLD THREAD in nice big large red letters.  Or it might not stay nice.  ;)

[dereksurfs]

I didn't watch the debate because I'm not partial to either of those guys, but I did read some of the post comments on this board.  I do subscribe to this newsletter and found their reflections of the debate interesting.  If you disdain ID or the creation viewpoint, please don't bother wasting your time reading this.

 

If, however, you have an open mind and like to explore various theories, you may find this interesting:

 

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/02/the_ham-nye_deb081911.html

 

I didn't watch the debate for the same reason.  But I found that article interesting.  So thanks for posting it and for the original intent of the thread. This is an important topic for all parents to consider, whether they be YE, OE, ID, Theist Evolutionist, or Evolutionist.  Sometimes we can and do learn from each other.  The more I research this area including the great variety of viewpoints the more I realize how much there is still to learn and discover.  Isn't that one of the great aspects of learning about our world through science, history and for some us our understanding of the Divine?  I'll add a somewhat funny but relevant quote from Einstein which I like:  "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."   And one more which is apropos with emphasis on the sense of humility one experiences as we pursue such areas:  "Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble." 

 

This is obviously a hot button issue, but one which 'can' be discussed civilly like most threads on here.  That is one of the things which typically sets this forum apart from other forums and the Community Guidelines help establish that atmosphere.  IMO, this is as important a point as is the topic itself, possibly more.  Common courtesy and mutual respect go along way toward having any meaningful kind of discussion whether we agree with others or not.  This is something which we must not only attempt to achieve but teach our children as well.  Like many things it is sometimes easier said than done.   ;)

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And now we're done.

 

Moderator