How do you teach math to a kid like this?

[Tracy]

I have posted a couple of times about my ds5, and you all have been very, very helpful.  I am still struggling to come up with a plan for him for math.  

 

We have continued with Miquon, and he has continued to avoid the multiplication, largely because he wants to do it himself and can't.  Just yesterday, after getting a Nerf gun, his dad assured him that we can get more bullets for about $5 for a pack of 20.  Ds5 responded that he could get 3 packs for $15 and have 60 bullets.  So now I know he can do multiplication on some level, even though he avoids it.  But if he understands it, why is he avoiding it?  And if he understands it, do I even need to teach it?  

 

This is so different from teaching dd8.  She is decent at math, but it is not her strength.  If I keep her a year ahead, there is enough new material to keep her happy, and I am just gently pulling her along.  With ds, I can't tell where he is or what he needs.  Just when I think he is struggling with a concept, he demonstrates mastery.   :blink:  I would love to plan for next year, and I can't even plan for next week.  

 

I am not even sure I am asking a question.  I would love to hear some BTDT stories, though.  

[OneStepAtATime]

Have you tried moving him to something he can do independently, at least for a change of pace?  Does he have o.k. computer skills?  If he is already attempting multiplication at 5, maybe even Teaching Textbooks or Time for Learning, just to see if he might be willing to do work disassociated from you....?

[Χά�ων]

Umm, he is 5. Relax.

[Tracy]

Umm, he is 5. Relax.

 

I am not stressed.  Just confused.  I have to give him something to do.  I am just trying to figure out how to go about it.  

[Tracy]

Have you tried moving him to something he can do independently, at least for a change of pace?  Does he have o.k. computer skills?  If he is already attempting multiplication at 5, maybe even Teaching Textbooks or Time for Learning, just to see if he might be willing to do work disassociated from you....?

 

He does have very good computer skills.  I looked at Time4Learning at the beginning of the school year, and I don't remember why I didn't go with it.  I think it didn't allow him enough flexibility to choose what to do.  That is why I keep coming back to Miquon.  He wants the blue book, but I thought he should finish the orange book first.  (He already has the red one and works out of both the orange and red books.)  But he only does what he can do on his own, and he wants nothing to do with the rods.

[Χά�ων]

Games. Check out a teacher supply store and pick up math games.

[wapiti]

He could work on skip-counting and still be working on multiplication without realizing it or calling it that?  Just thinking off the top of my head...  I don't have a particular resource in mind.  Skip counting can be really useful when it comes to learning the times table without really trying 

eta, I think there's a skip-counting section in one of the first two BA books but I can't remember what it looks like or whether it would be accessible to a young one.

[dbmamaz]

time4learning allows you to have 3 grade levels of math available to him at any time, he does not have to do them in order, he can re-do any lesson he wants, AND they have some graphing applets and other little tools like that my son liked to play around with.  For my mathy kid, i dont think along grade levels, I just look for fun, engaging materials that seem about right.  I did a lot of math story books with him in the early grades.  but he wouldnt do any worksheets.  Right now, tho, we're doing a major review with spectrum workbooks and he's perfectly happy.

[Tracy]

time4learning allows you to have 3 grade levels of math available to him at any time, he does not have to do them in order, he can re-do any lesson he wants, AND they have some graphing applets and other little tools like that my son liked to play around with.  For my mathy kid, i dont think along grade levels, I just look for fun, engaging materials that seem about right.  I did a lot of math story books with him in the early grades.  but he wouldnt do any worksheets.  Right now, tho, we're doing a major review with spectrum workbooks and he's perfectly happy.

 

Oh, thank you for this!  He is very happy with worksheets, but I think he would love to do math on the computer, too.  I will look more closely at Time4Learning.  

[CrunchyGirl]

Maybe the Right Start math games? They have proven awesome for us with teaching addition and general number sense. LegoMan ate up multiplication so I never used that set of games but all the one's we've tried have been pretty effective.

[serendipitous journey]

I think anything you do will be fine -- even dropping math for the 5yo year -- but wanted to add that I think that K/5 is a good year to have the child get used to regularly doing work he doesn't _want_ to do.  Just something (we do a few somethings) every school day -- a bit of each of the 3 Rs is a one option -- and get the kinks worked out of requiring work that isn't totally optional and fun.  You may have this already in other areas: I don't think you need it in math per se, but do think it is helpful esp. with bright little ones to get some routine of required work going.   That is how I, at least, teach to an accelerated child who doesn't want to learn math from anyone, thank you very much.  ;)

 

I am thinking 5-15 minutes of one or two things, and not necessarily math. 

 

Have you looked at MEP?  some of the assignments might go over better. 

 

ETA: looking at below comments, the usefulness of requiring some formal stuff may be particular to my children/situation.  They are definitely outliers!

 

[SorrelZG]

I decided to relax with my child who seems similar (from this post, at least). Although trying to place him in something somewhere was actually stressing me out for reasons you may not be dealing with but, by "relax" I mean that I went less formal and more flexible (although Miquon is generally pretty flexible, I think). But my child was not remotely interested in being accelerated and the result of the approach I took is that he is still as advanced as he naturally started out rather than being even more grade levels ahead. I have noticed that issues we've had over math have been decreasing as he grows and matures perhaps because his ability to communicate his thoughts and feelings and his ability to deal with challenge in this area are increasing.

[Alte Veste Academy]

That is why I keep coming back to Miquon.  He wants the blue book, but I thought he should finish the orange book first.  (He already has the red one and works out of both the orange and red books.)  But he only does what he can do on his own, and he wants nothing to do with the rods.

 

Your OP reminded me of my oldest when he was about that age. One day he asked how far away Christmas was and I said 3 and a half months. He instantly shot back at me, "Oh, so 105 days." And I was just  :huh: .

 

How do you teach a kid who gets math without being taught it? Who resists direct instruction? Who will balk if forced to do something he is not ready for? And balking at direct instruction in multiplication at the age of 5 is showing he is not ready for direct instruction in that area, whether he understands it or not. Nothing more. Anyway, how do you teach this child? Very carefully. :tongue_smilie:

 

My oldest DS used Miquon as his first math books and also wanted nothing to do with the c-rods. He liked Miquon otherwise. I had to do it "right" though :rolleyes: and he resisted, so I dropped Miquon with him. In retrospect, after a while, I really regretted that. He liked it. And it turned out that he could (and still can) see the connections/numbers/relationships in his head. He did not need the manipulatives.

 

So at 5, I vote either to drop it entirely and just play games because this kid is going to get math no matter what or to let him do Miquon in any order he wants to, with or without the c-rods. Whatever you do, do NOT turn it into a power struggle. I lost DS's love of math for a good long while and it was a hard fight to get it back. The most important thing is to keep joy and interest alive. 

[lewelma]

I agree with Alte, just drop formal math. Play games, have him estimate everything - distances, numbers, weights, etc. I think estimation and games are great for developing math skill and is all I did until my son was 6.5. You can play card games like addition war. They are fun!.

 

There is absolutely no need to teach a five year old math. Better to wait than develop resistance that will need to be overcome later.

 

Ruth in NZ

[MissKNG]

Read mathy story books to him - Sir Circumference, Penrose, Basher math book, etc.

[Tracy]

I think you are all saying a bit of what I need to hear.  I haven't made this a power struggle.  (I learned my lesson the first time around.)  I have required a small amount of formal work about 3 days per week.  He is very routine-oriented, does his work willingly, and often does extra work, as long as I am not too involved, and as long as he gets to choose what to do.  I do use it as an opportunity to teach about coping with one's own mistakes.  As long as he is sometimes doing extra work, I think I am safe to assume he likes it at least a little.  

 

I think I do need to do more living math type stuff (books, games).  That is really hard for this routine-oriented mom.  It takes so much extra effort to find those resources, and then I find it hard to schedule it.  

 

I am not sure his resistance to learning multiplication is that he is not ready for it.  He is resistant to learning or doing anything new, and I think that is really the core of the problem.  I have to do a lot of stealth teaching.  

 

It is really hard to just let go and trust that he has the ability to learn what he needs to learn.  And it seems a little unfair that his older sister has always had formal math and needs that formal teaching.  

[sunnyday]

I am not sure his resistance to learning multiplication is that he is not ready for it.  He is resistant to learning or doing anything new, and I think that is really the core of the problem.  I have to do a lot of stealth teaching.  

 

This doesn't sound like an immutable character trait. It sounds like he's five.

 

IMO, computer-based drills and games, where the only goal is to get the right answer, would be the exact wrong approach for a child who's got a natural facility with numbers. To grow into a stronger mathematician, he doesn't need to gain proficiency in computation, he needs to gain persistence in problem-solving, and most of that will come with maturity.

[Tracy]

This doesn't sound like an immutable character trait. It sounds like he's five.

 

 

It is pretty pronounced with him.  He doesn't even want to try a new kind of candy.  

[serendipitous journey]

It is pretty pronounced with him.  He doesn't even want to try a new kind of candy.  

 

This is what my earlier post was getting at.  I don't think whether or not he does math is important at this age.  But if there is a character resistance to trying new things, or to doing things that are requested, that can be very helpful to begin to get a handle on, and it sounds like you are already engaging this. 

 

Things do often get much easier at 8 or 9 years, particularly if you are working on these issues all along. 

 

I wouldn't fret about the unfairness too much.  It is a bit unfair that he has to struggle with these resistances to novelty, whereas his sister sounds like she was just fine with learning new things! 

 

[wapiti]

.

[Tracy]

FWIW, this reminds me of something that happened a long time ago - one of my ds10s wouldn't try ice cream when he was younger.  He also has big perfectionism/underachieving issues, a fear of trying things that might remotely be difficult or that he might not succeed at the first time.  I'm not sure that's related (he's a picky eater also), but it's something for me to think about.

 

I do think it may be sensory-related.  He is borderline SPD.  He gets it from me, and in my experience, doing something completely unfamiliar feels like a sensory issue to me.  

[jillian]

My 5 year old was ready for multiplication but just wouldn't do it. At around 5.5 it clicked and she was ready to work on memorizing them. i got her multiplication keys so she can do some drills too in the car or wherever

[dbmamaz]

My older son always needed more structure and my younger always needed less structure.  It took a while, but i got the swing of it!

[boscopup]

This is why I don't zoom my K'ers ahead. They still like things to be "easy". So we do first grade math that sticks with basic addition/subtraction, learning facts, etc. Yes, they have all figured out multiplication at age 5, but I didn't formally teach it with curriculum until some ways into first grade, when they hit it in the curriculum they're going through. I have noticed with both my older children that there was a shift around age 6-7 where they started to be able to handle some challenge/learning new things. My current first grader has sensory issues, and he doesn't like to do anything that is "work". He's now doing fine with Beast Academy 3A, but I also have him doing CLE 200 (which is "easy" for him), and last year in K he just did Singapore 1A/1B (also "easy"). My preschooler will be in K next year, and I plan to have him do CLE 100. Again, it will be "easy". It's systematic, and he'll know his facts inside and out when he's done :D, but it's "easy". That's ok. He'll be 5.

 

Do encourage him to try new things in different situations. My middle son is starting to get better about that. We have always had a "one bite rule" for food, so he always tries food, even if he says he doesn't like anything. ;) But I just don't see any reason a 5 year old NEEDS to be doing multiplication. So if he is resisting, let it go. Do first grade math and keep it "easy" for a bit longer. Eventually, "easy" gets "boring" for many kids. :) My oldest had that shift at age 6, and middle is more like 7 (ie, it's very recent, since he's only been 7 less than 2 months :D).

[Black-eyed Suzan]

My math-intuitive son enjoyed Life of Fred elementary series in K. The story made it seem like fun and the "Your Turn to Play" section was just enough work for him - even if the concept was review. I could focus on reading/handwriting, but still keep math "going." You might enjoy it because it easily fits into a routine (at least a chapter per day - we often did several). The only thing I did not like about using it as our only math was that it taught some topics algorithmically instead of conceptually...but he seems to understand the concepts intuitively, so it hasn't seemed to cause lasting damage.

 

We also played math games in K. I got out Monopoly as an afternoon activity one day and ended up playing it every day for months (not a full game each day - we kept the board out and came back to it). That's how he learned how to calculate change. My son could smell an "educational" game a mile away - it had to be actually entertaining.

 

I know I said this before in your previous thread, but I suggest not buying anything for next year. You have no idea what level he'll be by then! Seriously! I'm sorry...I wish I could plan, too.  :grouphug:  I now have a general progression in my mind (finish X, then give him Y placement test and do Y until he's ready for Z) and buy things as needed.

[Tracy]

I know I said this before in your previous thread, but I suggest not buying anything for next year. You have no idea what level he'll be by then! Seriously! I'm sorry...I wish I could plan, too.  :grouphug:  I now have a general progression in my mind (finish X, then give him Y placement test and do Y until he's ready for Z) and buy things as needed.

 

<sigh>  I know you are right.  But can't I at least decide what will come next?  <rhetorical question>  

[wapiti]

I do think it may be sensory-related.  He is borderline SPD.  He gets it from me, and in my experience, doing something completely unfamiliar feels like a sensory issue to me.  

 

I've never thought about it this way before, the sensory angle, a loss of control...  I usually think of this as fear of failure/perfectionism and associate it with an introverted personality type (e.g., I think it may be lumped in the introversion chapter in Upside Down Brilliance) rather than the fear of something new...  

[Tracy]

I've never thought about it this way before, the sensory angle, a loss of control...  I usually think of this as fear of failure/perfectionism and associate it with an introverted personality type (e.g., I think it may be lumped in the introversion chapter in Upside Down Brilliance) rather than the fear of something new...  A sensory angle provides a lot of food for thought regarding this one particular kiddo who has handwriting issues and some other less-defined sensitivities.  I have gone back and forth quite a bit on whether he is borderline SPD, to the point of making and cancelling appts with the expensive OT place where his siblings went when they were younger (he was so normal by comparison, LOL....)

 

My ds was evaluated by an OT at 2.5yo, and she declined to diagnose SPD, because it wasn't having enough effect on his life.  Three years later, I have learned that ds also has unusually advanced executive skills that allow him to compensate.  I am not sure it is fair to say he doesn't have SPD because he can compensate, any more than it is fair not to diagnose an LD in a gifted child because his/her giftedness allows him to compensate for the LD.  

[dbmamaz]

I like to have a mental list of at least 4 different options of what might come next . . . 

[Kevin'sMom]

Have you tried anything like Barron's Math Wizardry for Kids, or teaching him to play chess? What about T-tiles, fractals, tangrams, golden triangles?

 

I have always told my son that math is magic, and he simply believes me and sees it all as a wonderful game. I, myself, decided to retake college algebra last semester and am signing up again next semester (I audited but did all the work and went to almost every class). My goal is  to take calculus. There is a quote taped to our school desk: "I'll teach you math and that's your language. With that you're going to make it. You're going to college and sit in the first row, not the back, because you're going to know more than anybody."  Jaime Escalante

 

Multiplication is important, but it is just one tiny piece of math. The important thing, I think, is to show him that math is fun. And that it is MAGIC.

 

Best wishes to you.

 

 

[kbutton]

I do think it may be sensory-related.  He is borderline SPD.  He gets it from me, and in my experience, doing something completely unfamiliar feels like a sensory issue to me.  

 

First, do you know that Miquon is also organized by topical threads, which are listed inside the back cover of each book? You can buy the whole set, and then you can follow a thread through the whole series if you like rather than doing all the sheets in order. That's a lot of moving forward while avoiding multiplication. Are you looking at any videos at Education Unboxed (free videos online)? They use the rods, but it might be worth seeing if there is something fun that would appeal to him or other ideas for self-directed learning that you could tweak to avoid the rods.

 

With the sensory issues and the unwillingness to try new things, I urge you to keep track of these things. Consider writing them down. If you find out that you have a 2e kid, having some things written down will help with evaluation later. Our older son has a lot of resistance to change, sensory issues, and perfectionism that are a bit different from my younger son that initially came to mind from what you were saying in your other thread. It turns out that my older son has Asperger's, and much of the problem is anxiety based (but didn't look like it at all for long time). He was diagnosed last spring at 9 y.o., and it was quite the surprise since he was not like other kids we knew who had Asperger's (at least in the ways that we were thinking about it). I am making a big leap here connecting what you say to my son's diagnosis, so don't get worried that you've got a great big can of worms to open. Just watch things and keep an open mind as he develops. My son's anxiety looked like defiance, reluctance, avoidance, irritation, anger, etc. Basically it looked like everything except anxiety! He's let down his guard quite a bit, and now it's more apparent. I mention this in case these symptoms later become relevant for diagnosis or planning, not to cause worry. It's amazing what little things later become the missing piece in a puzzle. Anxiety and sensory issues are two sides of the same coin, even without Asperger's.

 

Best wishes.

 

[Barbara H]

 That is why I keep coming back to Miquon.  He wants the blue book, but I thought he should finish the orange book first.  (He already has the red one and works out of both the orange and red books.)  But he only does what he can do on his own, and he wants nothing to do with the rods

 

In this situation we set the rods aside and let the child have the whole stack of Miquon books to pick and choose as he saw fit. He understood multiplication years before he knew tables and I think that's quite normal.  He's a math major so I guess it worked out just fine.

[La Texican]

Previously, my kid did Singapore Early Bird, Khan Academy "telling time", and watches random kiddie math clips on YouTube. At one point (2yrs ago) I told him to watch YouTube khan academy multiplication and paused and pushed play to make notes on the whiteboard. (seriously, khan has a beatiful simple demonstration for multiplication & division). I handed him my iphone with the Khan Youtube videos and told him to take notes, you won't understand all of this, I told him, but I want you to take notes on the board and tell me one or two new things that you learned. I don't know if this practice will help the all or nothing thinking, imposter syndrome, or growth mindset, and I don't even know if you're supposed to try to fix those things. I know he'll get a good education and learn how to study things and learn things. I know he'll watch something he doesn't understand all of, take notes on just the parts he does understand, and rewatch later until he gets it down.. so I think it's been beneficial and educational.

 

This year we have started Singapore Math as assigned daily schoolwork. (I don't know how Miquon is). I only have the textbooks. I bought a notebook of graph paper (read that's best for teaching neatness in elementary math.) I let my son do a few pages daily of Singapore Math orally, and *I* write down the answer in his math notebook. -This works for language arts, why not math? And he likes bossing me to tell me what to write. I read the phrase "buddy math", here, I think there's a blog about it somewhere. Anyway, sometimes my son tells me the answers and I write, sometimes I tell him the answers, and he writes. I'm telling you, this gives me the flexibility to teach him a little something (and him learning to accept teaching), and lets me schedule in a little pencil work for him to practice writing down his answers. It gives him more feeling of authority in doing his math, and more of a buddy partnership since we're sharing the work.

 

I bought CTC math on a holliday special. I'm not what I think about it. There's not very much to it. I guess I'm spoiled by Khan Academy. Bedtime Math has lost it's appeal. He went from answering "If there's 3 birds, 2 cats, and a dog.. how many animals". with "what's 5+1?" tojust not wanting to play. He likes SumDog.com. He likes Beast Academy (a few pages once a week for school). We just started watching "mastering the fundementals of math" by the Great Courses. I'm glad, because I thought it was for after Singapore math, but it actually starts off in early elementary.

 

I do kind of an ad lib spiral approach. He's solid in the concept of division, so yesterday I wrote on the whiteboard 462/2 and 396/3. I asked him "what's 4 split 2 ways, 6 split 2 ways, etc.." I know he didn't catch why I was drawing arrows, subtracting numbers, and everything. I did it quick. I didn't explain. He knows how to watch and learn just one or two things new, not all or nothing, from the lesson I already mentioned.

 

I don't know if any of this is helpful. It's just that we're approaching numeracy like literacy and making it not just the scope and sequence from one curriculum, but surrounding ourselves with math problems online and math books so they're just as normal as storybooks, (not counting board games and incidental math) and just mentioning the buddy math notebook assignments for next year or whenever you start making assignments.

 

We have hardly used any manipulatives, just fingers and pencils and papers, and lately I bundled straws (coffee stirrers with rubber bands). I think it might be a learning style, symbolic rather than visual/spatial, or else my kid just has cheap parents and quickly made the best with what he had. Is symbolic thinking rather than visual/spatial a thing, anyone know?

[Tracy]

Lots of great ideas!  Thank you so much.  I think I may just break down and get the rest of the Miquon books.  I tend to feel like I am doing something wrong if we are not using the rods, though I know in my head that it is okay.  I will check out Khan Academy, too.  I had looked at the very first lessons and was not impressed with the explanations of simple addition, as I figured this is not something you learn by explanation but by doing.  But I am eager to check out the other lessons there now.

[La Texican]

All of the khan academy arithmetic lessons have been direct teaching with pencil and paper type lessons. If you don't like that style, that's pretty much how they all are so far. If you just want to see the videos right now without waiting to get there, google "YouTube + khan academy + division". Either way, check out the khan academy telling time lessons if your kid doesn't tell time yet. It's workbook style questions, but it has a virtual clock manipulative, which makes it much better imo than a plain workbook for telling time.

[boscopup]

I tend to feel like I am doing something wrong if we are not using the rods, though I know in my head that it is okay.

 

My oldest never used manipulatives for elementary math. He didn't want or need them. He's more of an abstract thinker. He fully understands elementary math conceptually without using manipulatives. I'm the same way - I do better with pictures rather than manipulatives. I know that sounds weird, but manipulatives drive me nuts. I only have manipulatives because my middle son needed them.

 

It's perfectly ok to not use manipulatives if the kid doesn't need them.