s/o Those of you that think gas prices should equal Europe's

[TechWife]

This sounds mostly fine, except that it would have an impact even without the tax.

 

The tax would end up punishing people who can't easily walk down the street in all types of weather, which would be mostly elderly and handicapped people and moms alone with their babies.

 

As for eminent domain, I'd move if they took away my backyard.  To a place where I could have a nice view of nature - not necessarily on a bus line.

 

Yes, it would have an impact! Impact is what we're after! 

 

No one has said people can't drive! Additionally, would you, as a neighbor, consider grabbing that gallon of milk for that elderly lady? 

 

Not sure where moms/babies would have trouble. I took my babe on walks all the time, all year round. Oh, yea, probably your safety issues. 

 

If urban sprawl continues, you eventually won't be able to find a place with a view of nature. 

[poppy]

This sounds mostly fine, except that it would have an impact even without the tax.

 

The tax would end up punishing people who can't easily walk down the street in all types of weather, which would be mostly elderly and handicapped people and moms alone with their babies.

 

As for eminent domain, I'd move if they took away my backyard.  To a place where I could have a nice view of nature - not necessarily on a bus line.

 

Making cities more walkable would enormously helpful to the elderly and handicapped and moms with their babies. Is that not obvious? 

[SKL]

Yes, it would have an impact! Impact is what we're after! 

 

No one has said people can't drive! Additionally, would you, as a neighbor, consider grabbing that gallon of milk for that elderly lady? 

 

Not sure where moms/babies would have trouble. I took my babe on walks all the time, all year round. Oh, yea, probably your safety issues. 

 

If urban sprawl continues, you eventually won't be able to find a place with a view of nature. 

 

Well, I had two non-walkers in the winter of 2007.  Snow accumulation and strollers don't mix too well.  I did learn to stock up plenty of milk just in case.

 

I would also note that in my parents' village, which gets a very high amount of snowfall, they have sidewalk plows that run every time it snows.  Very nice.  The residents still have to clear the path from their door to the sidewalk, but folks will help elderly people and such with that.  The sidewalk plow would be a good idea for northern cities if they hope people will walk more.  (Not sure how much gas they use....)

[SKL]

Making cities more walkable would enormously helpful to the elderly and handicapped and moms with their babies. Is that not obvious? 

 

I didn't say otherwise.  I'm saying these groups will still be more likely than others to drive and thus get hit with a gas tax.  That would be a mistake.

[TechWife]

Well, I had two non-walkers in the winter of 2007.  Snow accumulation and strollers don't mix too well.  I did learn to stock up plenty of milk just in case.

 

I would also note that in my parents' village, which gets a very high amount of snowfall, they have sidewalk plows that run every time it snows.  Very nice.  The residents still have to clear the path from their door to the sidewalk, but folks will help elderly people and such with that.  The sidewalk plow would be a good idea for northern cities if they hope people will walk more.  (Not sure how much gas they use....)

 

Guess how the sidewalk plows are paid for? Taxes!! 

 

That's a great idea by the way, I never knew there was such a thing as a sidewalk plow - very cool! 

[SKL]

By the way, it is not necessary to tell me that taxes already exist and are already used to pay for things in the community.  I get a fat tax bill to remind me of that quite often.  I am also a tax professional.  Just so you know, you don't need to educate me on the basics of taxation.  ;)

[TechWife]

I didn't say otherwise.  I'm saying these groups will still be more likely than others to drive and thus get hit with a gas tax.  That would be a mistake.

 

Why is that a mistake? The tax would also be paying for the roads that they are driving on, the plows that plow them, the people that operate the plows, the stop lights, the maintenance for the stoplights, the people who repair the stoplights, the repair of potholes, etc..

[ocelotmom]

Well, I had two non-walkers in the winter of 2007.  Snow accumulation and strollers don't mix too well.  I did learn to stock up plenty of milk just in case.

 

I would also note that in my parents' village, which gets a very high amount of snowfall, they have sidewalk plows that run every time it snows.  Very nice.  The residents still have to clear the path from their door to the sidewalk, but folks will help elderly people and such with that.  The sidewalk plow would be a good idea for northern cities if they hope people will walk more.  (Not sure how much gas they use....)

 

Yep. When DS was a baby, we lived in an area that, while otherwise very walkable, was horrible in snow. Not only were the sidewalks not plowed, but the street plows would make huge drift of snow at the corners, making the streets near-uncrossable, especially with a stroller. We didn't get all that much snow, and even unplowed sidewalks would have been manageable if not for the street snowplows.

 

We considered moving to an area that gets more snow. DH said that it would probably actually work better, because they were better equipped to deal with it and plowed the sidewalks.

[poppy]

I didn't say otherwise.  I'm saying these groups will still be more likely than others to drive and thus get hit with a gas tax.  That would be a mistake.

 

Actually those groups are among the least likely to be able to afford a car. 

[SKL]

Why is that a mistake? The tax would also be paying for the roads that they are driving on, the plows that plow them, the people that operate the plows, the stop lights, the maintenance for the stoplights, the people who repair the stoplights, the repair of potholes, etc..

 

It's a mistake because it's taxing the people least likely to be able to afford it, for actions they have the least control over.

[SKL]

Actually those groups are among the least likely to be able to afford a car. 

 

Many do, obviously.  The handicapped can get subsidized vehicles; the elderly often have cars or relatives who drop by to drive them where they need to go.  Both groups need some motorized transport to get to doctors etc.

[TechWife]

It's a mistake because it's taxing the people least likely to be able to afford it, for actions they have the least control over.

 

Any easy, although expensive, solution to this would be to provide a gas subsidy through the current food stamp/SNAP program. Of course, you could take that subsidy money from the gas tax others are paying, which would then cause the gas tax to be higher, because nothing is free. But, if money is the only obstacle you have left, then by all means, I can get rid of this one, too. But then again, the poor would also be driving less because they would be able to get to more things they need without driving!! 

 

Many do, obviously.  The handicapped can get subsidized vehicles; the elderly often have cars or relatives who drop by to drive them where they need to go.  Both groups need some motorized transport to get to doctors etc.

The truly elderly don't drive, they physically can't. Those that are nearing the end of their driving days would probably be delighted that the services they need to access would be so close to them, thus cutting their driving time. A higher gas tax would not affect those that have relatives driving them around, it would affect their relatives. All people will have motorized transport available. Maybe they even won't have to drive as far because those doctors would be in their neighborhoods instead of 15 miles away! Why? Because everything changes when attitudes change, and actions follow attitudes! We have made an impact! You get to move out of the city until you can't get away from it anymore - as long as you pay your taxes when you gas up, it doesn't matter, have fun. 

 

Have a great day! 

[LucyStoner]

Detriot and East St. Louis are outliers, hardly the norm from decaying cities.

 

Due to gentrification of urban areas, there has been a mass return of people with means to many cities. If you look at our rush hour here, you will see, along some corridors, MORE people travelling what used to be called the reverse commute and is now more trafficky than the regular commute because so many affluent people work at large suburban campuses but live in pricey center city housing. This is happening in other cites as well. Change not only can happen, it is happening. Not all of it good -ie low and moderate income people sometimes can't afford to live in the city if they wanted to. The pressure of transportation costs on families is real, but it is not an unfixable problem. It is widely speculated that the isolated housing developments of the boom years very well may become the ghettos of the future as the price of housing close to employment skyrockets when oil is no longer available in unlimited amounts to each consumer. The near in walkable suburbs with job bases and urban areas with jobs will be (and increasingly are) where people of means want to live.

[SKL]

Well that's a leap, to assume all the doctors everyone needs to see can be clustered within walking distance of their homes.  I could see a GP maybe, and a dentist, but not all the specialists that many sick / elderly people need to frequently see.

 

My parents' home is two doors down from a GP, but they don't have any use for him.  (Even if he wasn't a quack.)  Most of their medical needs require a trip to the big city.  I think that is pretty typical.

[SKL]

A higher gas tax would not affect those that have relatives driving them around, it would affect their relatives. 

 

Well, how does that help?  It still increases the cost of getting people to critical destinations.

 

These are the kinds of things that eventually drive people into nursing homes.  Is this a good result?  I don't think so.  I worked in a nursing home.  I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[LucyStoner]

Well that's a leap, to assume all the doctors everyone needs to see can be clustered within walking distance of their homes. I could see a GP maybe, and a dentist, but not all the specialists that many sick / elderly people need to frequently see.

 

My parents' home is two doors down from a GP, but they don't have any use for him. (Even if he wasn't a quack.) Most of their medical needs require a trip to the big city. I think that is pretty typical.

Considering most trauma centers, top cancer facilities and children's hospitals draw from a multi-state area utilizing helicopters and even family housing adjacent to long term treatment facilities out west, I think many if not most of us are well aware of that.

 

I bus or drive to my PCP. I walk to see the optical people and kid dentist. I think that is pretty typical, to need a car or choose a car for some things. I however can and do walk to the cleaners, the grocers, the library, a number of restaurants, some shops and entertainment things and to parks. I can bike to the movies and a larger shopping area (kept the baby trailer for this reason). It really honestly does add to my quality of life. When I briefly lived in a suburb where I needed my car to get basically anywhere, I was really unhappy. We lasted 12 months before moving. The allure of better schools (this was pre-homeschooling) was just not worth it. Obviously these are personal decisions and choices but they do impact the world around us.

[SKL]

Yes, my parents' village is great like that, as are most older areas built on a grid.  While young and vibrant, we walked to the dentist, optometrist, GP, schools, library, parks, all the stores and restaurants, community centers, churches, banks, Lawyers' Row and the courthouse ....  Everything was spread out but all within a couple of miles with plenty of sidewalks.  Jobs were scarce, specialists were non-existent, but for an ordinary young-to-middle-aged family, it was pretty great.  But given a certain age / condition, motorized transport is necessary.

[ocelotmom]

Well that's a leap, to assume all the doctors everyone needs to see can be clustered within walking distance of their homes.  I could see a GP maybe, and a dentist, but not all the specialists that many sick / elderly people need to frequently see.

 

My parents' home is two doors down from a GP, but they don't have any use for him.  (Even if he wasn't a quack.)  Most of their medical needs require a trip to the big city.  I think that is pretty typical.

 

1. Absolutely no one is saying that we should get rid of cars entirely. I suppose we will have to keep repeating this every single post because you just don't seem to get it. No one thinks grandma with a broken hip and heart condition should bicycle 20 miles in a blizzard to see her orthopedist.

 

2. Regardless of whether the person walks, bikes, unicycles, golf carts, taxis, public transports, or drives themselves, reducing the distance (and therefore gas) necessary for everyday trips frees up gas/money for the big trips. If you absolutely have to drive two blocks to the grocery store for whatever reason, it's using less gas than driving 5 miles. 

 

3. Investing in alternative transport options has the potential to make things easier for medically fragile people. My grandparents are in their 90s and medically fragile, but can still drive. They take trips outside of their local community pretty much only for medical appointments because the trip tends to be exceptionally draining. When possible, they have my dad drive them, but until recently he worked full time and simply wasn't available, and most of their friends are in worse medical condition than them and can't help. A shuttle service that took them into the city would be a huge blessing now, and that's the type of of alternative transport thing a lot of us are thinking about.

Gas vouchers/reimbursement for medical treatment purposes is another possibility. My husband gets milage reimbursment from the VA when he has to travel for treatment.

[Χά�ων]

I agree with much of this, but it isn't an "all or nothing" scenario, even for those of us who live very rural existences.  Even with fuel prices quite high right now, few people's routines have changed.  Those who do drive the super-cab F-150s or the 250s (because it's Ford or die out here) will still drive them.  I do know one couple who drive a Hummer.  They get very dirty looks all the time, but I'm not sure if it's because of the Hummer or because they're both outrageously egregious a$$holes.

 

Those who use more modest and thoughtful transportation still do, as well.  It means not making a trip to town every day for little things, but saving it for a big run.  It means not running off to the big town to "just for fun or because you're bored," but rather planning a monthly run or less.

 

I would venture that anywhere fuel costs are a painful financial consideration, whether it be rural or urban, people will take measures to adapt -- if they are smart.  The reality is that whether the US prices rise to European levels or not, they will rise, period, and people will have to adapt.  Even now, fuel is a prohibitive cost for many people to incur.  That will only increase.  The only question is: what will people do to adapt?

 

I am going with egregious a$$holes. Thankfully, I do not see that where I live. I actually do not know anyone who drives into the city just for fun or because they are bored.  People view big wasteful cars as a status symbol.

 

To the person who said something along the lines of needing a car to take a sick child to the doctor means driving to the store or something like that. You are so far out there it isn't even funny. I take my child to the doctor in the big city. I drive to the store on the way home from a medical appointment. I cannot legally walk to the store per state law (I would actually commit two felonies each way if I did). Unless you count the large freezers in the barn where I store what I grew from my garden as a store, then, yes, I walk to the store.

 

I am not a fan of electric cars, but mostly because here electricity is coal. I am not sure switching to a different fossil fuel is the answer.

 

I would LOVE to have a train that ran between my small town and the large city. LOVE!! It would be great! I cannot tell you how much I would love the idea. The thought excites me to an absurd level. I can take the train into the city in the morning of DS's appointment, go to the doctor, hit up a nearish museum and then take the train home. I LOVE the idea.

 

 

 

I see waste in the suburbs to a disgusting degree. Where I lived before I was half a mile to the elementary school, yet they offered bus service for every child and made it a pain in the neck for kids who wanted to walk home. Even the children who lived in houses backing up to the school where the parents had installed a gate in the back fence so the kids would have easy access to the house were forbidden to go that way by the school. The school had two places for the walkers to exit the school grounds and forbid the kids from walking back onto school grounds to go home. Though it is a step up from when I was in school. We were not allowed to ride bikes or walk to school because of safety concerns.

 

Anyway, my old house was 1-1.5 miles from Wal-Mart, more than a dozen different medical offices, including a major hospital, more restaurants than I can count, a high school, and various specialty type shops. People would still drive their hummer to the store to pick up milk and bread. The city actually made it unsafe for people to walk to Wal-Mart. Not counting the two parks that sat empty or the 5 churches. Within 2 miles I could hit up a grocery store, post office, library several more parks and so on. 5 miles and I could be anywhere I needed to be.

 

But. I was not allowed to have solar panels on my house, I could only grow approved plants (ie I could not have a garden large enough to feed my family for the year), no chickens and so on. In other words I was forced to live in such a way that made me dependent on fossil fuels. There are solutions including, keeping HOA from throwing up road blocks everywhere and changing the mindset from "gas guzzling monster cars are cool" to "fuel efficient cars, walking, biking and minimal carbon footprints are cool" is what is needed. Without the change at a personal level that appeals to peoples since of pride change will not happen.

 

I was seeing the change before we moved, not enough for me to be willing to stay in an area where I was still so dependent on the unsustainable culture and mindset. I hope that people's mindsets and views will continue to evolve. But there will always be people who are unable and unwilling to change, HOA's who, in the name of uniformity, refuse to allow progress and politicians who see their own pocketbooks first.

 

In the mean time, keeping my son from a slow and painful death IS more important to me then staying on the farm every day of the year because those in the suburbs drive their hummer one mile to Walmart to buy plastic junk, packaged in plastic and that will go to the landfill next week.

[ocelotmom]

To the person who said something along the lines of needing a car to take a sick child to the doctor means driving to the store or something like that. You are so far out there it isn't even funny. I take my child to the doctor in the big city. I drive to the store on the way home from a medical appointment. I cannot legally walk to the store per state law (I would actually commit two felonies each way if I did). Unless you count the large freezers in the barn where I store what I grew from my garden as a store, then, yes, I walk to the store.

That was me, and I think you misread me. I was deliberately being hyperbolic. Some people seem to be using exceptional situations as a reason to not do anything at all.

 

(And, while I'm at it, I do recognize that the need for a medical specialist may in fact indicate an actual medical need to drive to the store.)

[SKL]

1. Absolutely no one is saying that we should get rid of cars entirely. I suppose we will have to keep repeating this every single post because you just don't seem to get it. No one thinks grandma with a broken hip and heart condition should bicycle 20 miles in a blizzard to see her orthopedist.

 

2. Regardless of whether the person walks, bikes, unicycles, golf carts, taxis, public transports, or drives themselves, reducing the distance (and therefore gas) necessary for everyday trips frees up gas/money for the big trips. If you absolutely have to drive two blocks to the grocery store for whatever reason, it's using less gas than driving 5 miles. 

 

3. Investing in alternative transport options has the potential to make things easier for medically fragile people. My grandparents are in their 90s and medically fragile, but can still drive. They take trips outside of their local community pretty much only for medical appointments because the trip tends to be exceptionally draining. When possible, they have my dad drive them, but until recently he worked full time and simply wasn't available, and most of their friends are in worse medical condition than them and can't help. A shuttle service that took them into the city would be a huge blessing now, and that's the type of of alternative transport thing a lot of us are thinking about.

Gas vouchers/reimbursement for medical treatment purposes is another possibility. My husband gets milage reimbursment from the VA when he has to travel for treatment.

 

Nobody said we should get rid of cars completely, but some people keep implying that driving is something people should be ashamed of.

 

I agree that walkable, safe cities / villages are awesome.  I'm pretty sure I've said that about 100 times.  What I am disagreeing with is the idea of a significant hike in the gas tax on everyone who drives.

 

I also said nothing against alternative transport options, except that these may or may not meet the cost/benefit test on a case by case basis.  A shuttle service for the elderly/handicapped is great - it exists in many places around here - but I'm not sure it has a significant impact on gas usage.

[Χά�ων]

That was me, and I think you misread me. I was deliberately being hyperbolic. Some people seem to be using exceptional situations as a reason to not do anything at all. 

 

Ahh. I didn't catch that while attempting to read replies that come through my email on my phone. 2 inch screens are not the best way to keep up on a forum. And, as you can probably guess from my lack of grammar and punctuation, not the best way to compose a well written reply either.

[Χά�ων]

 

Gas vouchers/reimbursement for medical treatment purposes is another possibility. My husband gets milage reimbursment from the VA when he has to travel for treatment.

 

Yes, I get this for taking DS to his therapies and medical appointments. It is a life saver. Even getting 40 MPG it is a bite to the budget to travel into the city several times a week. I am thankful for the gas reimbursement program that makes it possible for me to keep my DS alive and healthy.

[Χά�ων]

Guess how the sidewalk plows are paid for? Taxes!! 

 

That's a great idea by the way, I never knew there was such a thing as a sidewalk plow - very cool! 

 

I had never heard of them before either. The suburbs where I used to live the sidewalks were the responsibility of the homeowner. If they were not clear the homeowner could be ticketed. For the lazy a$$hat across the street, it was an awesome incentive for him to get out and do it, for the elderly couple down the street it was stupidity that they had to engage in an activity dangerous to their health.

[Laura Corin]

Making cities more walkable would enormously helpful to the elderly and handicapped and moms with their babies. Is that not obvious? 

 

 

Yes.  My 89 year old mother doesn't drive, and four years ago stopped riding her motorbike.

 

She can walk to a small shopping street where she can buy fruit, veg, milk, cheeses, a newspaper, etc.  She's also walking distance to a bus that takes her and her rolling shopping cart to the supermarket.  When she buys too much to bring home on the bus, she calls a taxi from the free phone at the shop.  This is affordable because she does not have the fixed costs involved in owning a car

 

Not only is she not isolated, despite not driving, she also gets a lot of gentle exercise.  Her doctor showers her in compliments about her fitness.

 

L

[Χά�ων]

Well that's a leap, to assume all the doctors everyone needs to see can be clustered within walking distance of their homes.  I could see a GP maybe, and a dentist, but not all the specialists that many sick / elderly people need to frequently see.

 

My parents' home is two doors down from a GP, but they don't have any use for him.  (Even if he wasn't a quack.)  Most of their medical needs require a trip to the big city.  I think that is pretty typical.

Where I lived in the suburbs, I could see any type of specialist I needed within 3 miles of my home for anything I, as an adult, would need.

 

Well, how does that help?  It still increases the cost of getting people to critical destinations.

 

These are the kinds of things that eventually drive people into nursing homes.  Is this a good result?  I don't think so.  I worked in a nursing home.  I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Many states offer transportation for low income and the elderly or gas reimbursement for those have have friends and families able to drive them. Not everyone knows about these programs but they are an option.

 

Considering most trauma centers, top cancer facilities and children's hospitals draw from a multi-state area utilizing helicopters and even family housing adjacent to long term treatment facilities out west, I think many if not most of us are well aware of that.

 

Yep.  I opt not to use these resources because I do not need them at this time. I am thankful that they are available for those who do need them and I may need them in the future. 

[Laura Corin]

Well that's a leap, to assume all the doctors everyone needs to see can be clustered within walking distance of their homes.  I could see a GP maybe, and a dentist, but not all the specialists that many sick / elderly people need to frequently see.

 

My parents' home is two doors down from a GP, but they don't have any use for him.  (Even if he wasn't a quack.)  Most of their medical needs require a trip to the big city.  I think that is pretty typical.

 

My mother walks to the GP and takes a bus to the hospital where she sees a specialist.

 

L

[LucyStoner]

Yes. My 89 year old mother doesn't drive, and four years ago stopped riding her motorbike.

 

She can walk to a small shopping street where she can buy fruit, veg, milk, cheeses, a newspaper, etc. She's also walking distance to a bus that takes her and her rolling shopping cart to the supermarket. When she buys too much to bring home on the bus, she calls a taxi from the free phone at the shop. This is affordable because she does not have the fixed costs involved in owning a car

 

Not only is she not isolated, despite not driving. She also gets a lot of gentle exercise. Her doctor showers her in compliments about her fitness.

 

L

That's awesome and I want to be living like that at 90 too. My dad, who is in his 70s with MS, gets around without a car for nearly everything. He walks to the store and buys a small amount at a time, walks to his volunteer job and catches the bus to visit me and the train to visit my brother. He also uses the Internet for much of his shopping needs, and could use grocery delivery if needed. His cardiac situation is better and his condition more manageable because he stays active. His doctors compliment him all the time because of his walking. That said, before his car died and he moved to a very urban senior housing development, he more often drove even short distances. He is having some serious health matters right now tied to his MS so I will often pick him up if he has a long haul for a big appointment or I will meet him at his building and go with him on the bus (he is close to most medical stuff except the VA). He's frankly reaching a condition that I don't think would be very safe for driving. I was somewhat relieved when his van died and very relieved when earlier on he moved somewhere without a parking space which made him keep his van at my brother's house and use it way less.

 

No one needs to feel guilty about driving. Guilt is not a healthy emotion. But there is also no need to be defensive when people point out that it does, in fact, have costs to others and it is, in fact, not the only option or way of life. It may actually help people hold onto their health and mobility longer to choose a less car centric way of life. 10 years ago, my dad used a power chair for work (which meant a bus commute) and or cane pretty often. Now he is fine with just the cane and only some of the time.

[SKL]

I do have good medical facilities within a few miles of my home, but not close enough to walk, especially if I were sick.  I used to always go there and loved the convenience.  (We don't have a need for specialists at this point.)  Then my health insurance converted me to their HMO which requires me to drive at least a half hour for everything.  (I need to look into other options, but haven't gotten around to it.)

[ocelotmom]

Ahh. I didn't catch that while attempting to read replies that come through my email on my phone. 2 inch screens are not the best way to keep up on a forum. And, as you can probably guess from my lack of grammar and punctuation, not the best way to compose a well written reply either.

Totally with you on that. I'm on my phone, too. On the way to two different medical specialist appts located a few hours from home, in fact :)

[LucyStoner]

Are you talking about Seattle? If you're not, you are anyway, because that's exactly the situation here. Traffic is practically untenable, and it's such a huge frustration.

 

But, indeed, that is because of the success of the city as a living place. And the smaller outlying cities, as well.

A-Yup. I've lived in or very near to Seattle most all of my life. But reading up and traveling around I see it is not a phenomenon limited to here at all.

 

Part of the issue here is that there are many people here whose idea of mass transit is that everyone else should ride the bus so there is no traffic for their hybrid. Part is because our roads are badly planned or constrained by geography in many spots. And part is because bus routes haven't caught up with people whose commute is not into town in the AM and out of town in the PM. And you are screwed if you don't work downtown bus wise. If you need to get anywhere cross region that doesn't terminate one direction downtown, good freaking luck. We also were really late to the party mass transit wise and our need to study the study to study planning a project slows us way down. A decade ago The Economist labelled Seattle as the urban area with the overall worst transportation planning in a first world country. Nothing has changed. I personally want a refund of my Monorail taxes! Not holding my breath! There are cities with newer train systems that cost less than our process exploring transit, it's utter madness.

 

This reminds me why we are seriously considering moving away from Seattle at some point down the line.

[Rosie_0801]

If they figure out a way to change it, that is great.  I am not opposed to it.  But not to the point of tearing down houses or making people move or punishing them if they don't.

 

And if they do figure out a way to change it, like everything else, it will take a long time.  By then I will no longer have young kids to cart around.  I'll be a quiet old lady who ventures out rarely because she has internet and books and tea to enjoy.  And a nice backyard.

 

 

Geez. Haven't we all been saying things have to start small? You are obviously the sort of person who can make people pay attention. It sounds like nearly everyone in this thread would have a few problems solved if extra footpaths were put in around town and speed and red light cameras were not owned by private companies. You could (you may not want to, but you could, or, I dare say, there are excellent reasons why this non-American solution couldn't work) write some letters, go to the town meeting or whatever options are and tell them to spend some of your taxes on the cameras and use the revenues to upgrade footpaths so the kids can walk safely to the local shop to spend their pocket money. Then tell them to put some school crossings in the streets around schools so those too close to be bussed (assuming there is such a thing) can walk the block or two.

 

This doesn't involve rebuilding an entire neighbourhood or waiting for the national government to pull it's finger out. Local governments can get things done before we're all old and grey.

[SKL]

LOL about Seattle.  It doesn't sound too much worse than some cities I've been to.  But where I live, the traffic really isn't a problem to speak of.  It usually takes a half hour or less to drive from suburb to downtown big city.  More like 20 minutes if you aren't going in the direction of rush hour traffic.  When you can keep a speed of about 55mph, the usage of gas is a lot less than stop-and-go (and only about half of the popular 75mph).  Parking is also a lot less troublesome in my neck of the woods.  Mass transit is probably about average.  Really, I don't think the overall city design is bad, only the suburbs / subdivisions that have been built up over about the past 20-30 years.

[SKL]

Geez. Haven't we all been saying things have to start small? You are obviously the sort of person who can make people pay attention. It sounds like nearly everyone in this thread would have a few problems solved if extra footpaths were put in around town and speed and red light cameras were not owned by private companies. You could (you may not want to, but you could, or, I dare say, there are excellent reasons why this non-American solution couldn't work) write some letters, go to the town meeting or whatever options are and tell them to spend some of your taxes on the cameras and use the revenues to upgrade footpaths so the kids can walk safely to the local shop to spend their pocket money. Then tell them to put some school crossings in the streets around schools so those too close to be bussed (assuming there is such a thing) can walk the block or two.

 

This doesn't involve rebuilding an entire neighbourhood or waiting for the national government to pull it's finger out. Local governments can get things done before we're all old and grey.

 

We have sidewalks for the most part - with some exceptions.  And we have school crossings.  And we don't have a speeding issue here.  The problem is that everything is too far to walk to, even with a sidewalk, in the course of a regular day.  On a relaxed weekend with halfway decent weather, maybe.

 

I guess I'd have to post a photo of my area to show why some of these suggestions won't work without tearing the place down.  It was intentionally designed to provide the feel of being set apart and not busy.  Each street is short and doesn't have that many houses.  The backyards are separated by deep ravines.  Everything is round about and a straight path to any location would have to cut through many people's backyards, which I don't think is a good idea.  In short, my neighborhood is what it is.  I acknowledge that the planning was bad but I am not responsible for it.  Just like Lucy Stoner is not responsible for the mass transit problem in her city.  I could say it would be nice to have closer public schools, except that my kids don't go to the public schools anyway.  And our city piggybacks off the public school system of a larger nearby city.  There are often articles from our mayor about how that city's school district lied and gave us the short shrift.  They are fighting to prevent the closure of the nearest high school (2+ miles away) as we speak.  But I don't think I have standing and even if I did, I don't have time for that.  (As it is I am about to get in trouble for playing around on WTM instead of preparing for a conference call....).

[J-rap]

I wouldn't mind paying higher taxes on gas.  I get so aggravated by the "why walk/bike when you can just drive everywhere?" crowd.  And don't even get me started on Halloween, where we had a line of SUVs shuttling kids from house to house on a warm night in safe neighborhoods with wide sidewalks.  Heaven forbid kids walk ten feet to the next house when they can just hop in mommy's Escalade and be driven the ten feet.

 

Or the people who are enraged about our city's plan to expand the walking paths and add in more bike trails for the downtown area because the construction will temporarily make it harder for them to drive everywhere, and according to them, no one in their right mind would ever voluntarily walk or bike anywhere when they could drive there instead, so the city should just build more parking spaces.  Aaarrrggghhh.

 

Bring on the gas taxes.  Maybe it will shake people out of their mindset that the outdoors are for cars and anyone walking or biking needs to get the heck out of their way.

 

Sounds familiar.  My husband has worked for years to get funding for bike trails in our area, locally but also to connect our town to other small rural towns in the area.  He has been partly successful, but you would not believe the amount of opposition he has gotten.  People say that the bike trails would bring in too much "riff raff"!  What in the world!!??

[Mergath]

Sounds familiar.  My husband has worked for years to get funding for bike trails in our area, locally but also to connect our town to other small rural towns in the area.  He has been partly successful, but you would not believe the amount of opposition he has gotten.  People say that the bike trails would bring in too much "riff raff"!  What in the world!!??

 

Lmao! What does that even mean?  Like if you put in bike trails, all the world's drug dealers and prostitutes and other random criminals are going to hop on their bicycles and pour into town?  That definitely wins the prize for the most ridiculous argument against bike trails I've heard yet.

 

Just for the record, we already have quite a few bike trails and much of the state is connected via bike trail.  The level of riff raff has stayed roughly the same. ;)

[J-rap]

A little off-topic perhaps, but where my daughter lives (a capital city in Central America), depending on your license plate number, there is one day of the week when you cannot drive your car (or you get fined).  You have to walk, rely on public transportation, or catch or ride with someone who IS allowed to drive that day.  I know that wouldn't work in a lot of places, but in a crowded metro area I think it's kind of an intriguing idea.

[Mergath]

What it means is bike riding is associated with poor people in some places.  And poor people are equated with riff raff. 

 

Not MY view, but I think some people do think like that.

 

Wow, I wouldn't even have thought of that.  That's so sad that people think that way.

[LucyStoner]

LOL about Seattle. It doesn't sound too much worse than some cities I've been to. But where I live, the traffic really isn't a problem to speak of. It usually takes a half hour or less to drive from suburb to downtown big city. More like 20 minutes if you aren't going in the direction of rush hour traffic. When you can keep a speed of about 55mph, the usage of gas is a lot less than stop-and-go (and only about half of the popular 75mph). Parking is also a lot less troublesome in my neck of the woods. Mass transit is probably about average. Really, I don't think the overall city design is bad, only the suburbs / subdivisions that have been built up over about the past 20-30 years.

We have no rush hour here it seems. It's like rush day time and rush random Sunday afternoon. But we have a generally thriving, safe city that many people want to live in. No bombed out war zones here. Like I said, we don't know from ghetto here.

[poppy]

It's funny to think of bike riders being poor. In my neck of the woods, most riders have pretty expensive bikes. There are specialized bike shops in every town where you can't buy a bike for under a few hundred bucks, absolutely minimum used. I went in one to get a cheap used bike for my kindergartener and had such sticker shock (ended up with a yard sale bike for $12!)  Most serious riders have multiple bikes, each worth a few grand. And certain parts of Boston are absolutely clogged with bikes from college students who could fairly be described as elite.

[Χά�ων]

It's funny to think of bike riders being poor. In my neck of the woods, most riders have pretty expensive bikes. There are specialized bike shops in every town where you can't buy a bike for under a few hundred bucks, absolutely minimum used. I went in one to get a cheap used bike for my kindergartener and had such sticker shock (ended up with a yard sale bike for $12!)  Most serious riders have multiple bikes, each worth a few grand. And certain parts of Boston are absolutely clogged with bikes from college students who could fairly be described as elite.

Yep. Yep and Yep.

 

I about fainted when I decided to look at getting a bike. I ended up at Wally World with a clearance bike. I tried to ride it home but the chain fell off. I about screamed.

[Mrs Mungo]

Growing up I lived in an area where you really NEVER saw bike riders except for the very poor who just had no other way to get around.  And where I live now, it's not much different.  Poor people really are the only ones who ride bikes around here (other than children or the occasional exerciser/athlete).  The city is not set up for bikers either.  So you'd almost have to be nuts or desperate to consider it.  That's why when people here showed me those bikes with carriers I had to kinda shake my head because they have no idea what it is like where I live.  Something like that would be pretty difficult to use without putting myself and my kids in very dangerous situations.

It is sad.  There has been some effort to add areas for biking, but the focus has been more on fitness/fun rather than transportation.  So these are areas you'd have to drive to to actually use, not something you can use to get around.

The question is not whether it's accessible to bikes now. The question (in my mind) is this: *should* we start to make places more accessible for walking, bikes, etc and invest in public transportation now because we won't have a choice at some point?

[skimomma]

I thought of this thread today.  The high today was 4F and we have had 80 inches of snow so far this year.  Dh walked to work (30ish minutes) today because it was too much effort to try to get a car totally defrosted.  I did manage to get a car out but passed not one, not two, not three, but four bikers on my way home from the store in the dark.  There are no bike lanes.  There are few sidewalks and even fewer that are cleared in the winter.  Bikers are now common enough around here, year round, that the cars know how to work around them.  There are many many pedestrians.  It is safer and often easier to walk than drive when the roads are really bad even though you have to walk on the roads (no sidewalks).  People use kick-sleds (think stroller but with runners instead of wheels) if they have kids or a lot of cargo.  We had a kick-sled and it worked just fine when dd was too young to walk.  At that time, we had one car and dh had it most days.  It was a pain sometimes but not the end of the world.  

 

We cannot just run full-speed into a disaster.  We all see it coming.  Taxes or not, gas is going to increase in cost and probably faster than any of us think right now.  We are not going to be worried about being able to drive our kids to all those very-important extracurricular activities.....we are going to be worried about how to drive to work or FOOD.  I believe we are just delaying the pain with subsidies.  It is time to put on the big-girl panties and start to adapt.  Start.  That means doing what we can as individuals AND collectively.  Sitting around poo-pooing every possible solution is not going to help anyone.  If something is not feasible for you, then don't do it.  That does not make it a crappy idea for others.  I was not biking home from the store tonight for several reasons I won't bore you all with.  Completely "legitimate" reasons.....  Most would say 4 degree weather is reason enough......  But I can (and do) walk sometimes.  Even at 4 degrees.  And with time and practice and experience, I can do more and more.  And I can advocate for change in my community.  Baby steps.

 

And just a word about the elderly.....  It is scary to drive in my area for 6 months of the year.  Most older people decide to stop driving at younger ages than normal.  It is not only hard to drive but also hard to get your vehicle out and clear enough to drive safely.  Not great for older folks.  We have no public transportation.  Yet we have hundreds, maybe thousands, of individuals that do not drive that somehow get around.  It is neighbors, community groups, family, and taxis that get these people around.  We have an entire volunteer organization that has the sole purpose of helping the elderly get to doctor appointments (and oddly to chop firewood).  This started out as a few people helping out and has grown into a much larger organization with a fleet of vehicles.  These local, situation-specific solutions will happen everywhere when we have no choice.  Seems like a good idea to start working on them now, doesn't it? 

[SKL]

I too find it surprising that bikes are associated with "riff raff" in some places.  I mean, yes, there are poor people who bike in my area, but more often those on a bike are middle class to well-off.  They do it for fun, fitness, or sport training.  Even if they bike to work it's more for their health than because they are environmentally conscious.

 

I have a couple of bikes, neither in good repair.  I haven't really ridden a bike in ages, because my kids are not old enough to take the steep hills with me (we live on top of a hill).  Instead, their 16" bikes are in the trunk of my car.  I drive them someplace where they can ride without wiping out at the bottom of a hill.  Since my bike does not fit in the trunk, I just walk around the path while they ride/play.  As a single mom, I can't leave my kids so I can go bike alone.  I do look forward to the time when we can all ride around the neighborhood.

[ocelotmom]

What it means is bike riding is associated with poor people in some places.  And poor people are equated with riff raff. 

 

Not MY view, but I think some people do think like that.

 

Around here, bike commuters are widely assumed to have had their license suspended, generally because of a DUI.

 

I *think* I escape suspicion on this as my job has background checks and I tend to come off as a goody-goody :P

[Dory]

A few years ago I could've never imagined a first world country with cities and towns that didn't have sidewalks, plows for said sidewalks, and often biking trails. In the town that I live beside we have a few old people that live in the elderly housing on the opposite end of town from the hospital. It's not uncommon to see them walking to appointments. There is a shuttle for those that can't walk and a shuttle that goes to the nearest city for specialist appointments once a week. It does cut down on fuel as there is only one vehicle going instead of 6 or more. I live about 4 miles out of town and I have walked home before. Biking there and back isn't that big a deal. In the town next door, where I spent my younger childhood, most people biked and walked. The car was for during the worst winter weather and when the odd old person or mom was having a really bad day.

 

Just having the trails and sidewalks does make more people move that direction, and makes it safer for them to do so.

 

My first visit to Tennessee I walked 5miles to my dh's aunt and uncle ahead of the rest of the family because I wanted some fresh air and I desperately wanted to stretch my legs out. Everyone there was shocked that I had walked. I was shocked that there were no sidewalks and I had to be so careful. Crossing the street was a little freaky. I don't understand why everyone is willing to pay for a gym membership so they can run on a treadmill, but having sidewalks put into their town is too expensive? I don't get it.

[LucyStoner]

I don't understand why everyone is willing to pay for a gym membership so they can run on a treadmill, but having sidewalks put into their town is too expensive? I don't get it.

This always strikes me as funny too. Mind, you can't have my gym (Y) membership unless you pry it out of my cold dead hands because I like the pool, group classes and the childcare but most of my heavy duty working out is out of doors, even in the winter. Running indoors strikes me as extremely dull. Like why bother dull.

[Rosie_0801]

I've been wondering about what kind of alternative energy technology can be used in snowy areas. (Sure, I could google but I'm in the middle of listening to a lecture and don't want to side track too much.) Obviously such technologies are out of the price range of many of us, but they also become cheaper over time so perhaps that problem will resolve itself eventually. Solar won't be much use, but what about domestic wind turbines? 

 

A slight diversion in topic, I realise.

[TravelingChris]

I am absolutely against raising tax prices.  I am also in favor of getting rid of the ethanol subsidies (which do exist).  Gas is NOT subsidized.  As that chart showed, our base price is the same basically as other countries but our taxes are lower.  The 'subsidies' some posters are talking about are tax breaks that, for the most part, are the same for both oil and gas companies and every other kind of company= capital gains tax breaks. The other 'subsidies' they supposedly receive in some nefarious scheme are research and development tax credits or deductions (I believe they are tax credits but could be deductions).  Anyway, I want the oil companies to be doing research- developing new energy sources and methods is one of the priorities we should be interested in continuing.  Finally, the last type of 'subsidy' they receive is that their taxes were lowered along with all of ours back during the Bush era and then continued under Obama.  SOme of those taxes have been raised again but again that is for all who make or earn over a certain amount- not just oil companies.  And I go back to my earlier point, not raising oil company taxes is not the same at all as subsidizing them.

 

Now, the second major point I have is that in October, for the first time in many, many years, we became a net exporter of oil rather than an importer.  For all those who remember the old ideas that we are running out of oil and will be out of it by 20XX (there were many predictions). read about the new predictions.  I believe that we are now set to have enough oil for over a century more/  Someone my dh knows who works at the DOE stated succinctly, " we don't have an energy problem, we have a cheap energy problem".  Even that is turning out to be not so dire a situation now because of point 3---- technology innovations.  Even some minor innovations are helping save energy-  for example, my 2006 car tells me if my tires are low- improperly inflated tires increase gas consumption.  But that is the just a very minor innovation/  A more major one is what is happening currently in CA and NV where tests are being done on regular highways and streets of non human operated cars/  So far, they have not had any problems with these.  It is expected that those types of navigation systems will be coming out to the consumers within a few years, like 3 years.  Wyy is that important?  Because the cars will be driven much more efficiently by robotic control.  It will also get rid of most of the problems of traffic jams on highways since the cars will be able to drive fast and close and that will reduce the need for building even more freeways.  It will also take care of the problem of the elderly who can't drive anymore and lots of the disabled too.

 

But there are even more technological innovations to come like remote surgeries, better controls over household energy expenditures by  multiple room detectors that can open and close vents and window shades, etc, to more efficiently work at heating and cooling houses and hundreds of thousands of more I can't even think of at this time.

 

So what to do know= start changing to LED lights, maintain your vehicle in maximum fuel efficient way, combine trips, etc. 

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Growing up I lived in an area where you really NEVER saw bike riders except for the very poor who just had no other way to get around. And where I live now, it's not much different. Poor people really are the only ones who ride bikes around here (other than children or the occasional exerciser/athlete).

Yup. That's the split here. Latino day workers on little kid bikes and the random exec on a $2k racer. Most of the in town roads are fine to pedal, but to get to an office, you've got to hit the larger roads that aren't safe, not because they're new, but because they're old and narrow.