HELP me!!!! I am going to strangle my daughter....ok...not really...

[ProudGrandma]

my almost 13dd...doing math. She hates math, she isn't very good at math...she grumps and complains. we are sitting here very quietly working on the MM lesson from level 5b on simplifying fractions. She says she can't do it. She says she hates math. She says she can't think. She hits her head and pounds her fists in frustration.

 

Why does this have to be like this EVERY SINGLE DAY?????? How can I help her? What can I do? I know that part of her problem is that she can't seem to remember her math facts...but the biggest problem is her bad attitude towards math. But it's a vicous cycle. She struggles with math so she has a bad attitude...but she has a bad attitude because she struggles with math. So how do i break this cycle. She is a VERY stubborn girl and she doesn't want to own up to the fact that her attitude plays a HUGE role in this situation.

 

What do I do???? What can I say??? How can I make this situation better and not worse??

[pollo_la]

Maybe take a break and work on ONLY math fact memorization and mastery for a month or two. Start out small - just 39 facts at first (addition zero, ones, and 2's... make it ridiculously easy!) Then gradually add in facts (one fact family at a time - so 13 new facts if you go from 0-12). Make sure she has them mastered before adding in any new ones. Eventually (once she has about 150 - 200 down well) you will not need to review every fact every day, but if this is all you're working on, you should pretty much cover them daily. If at any point some of the previously "mastered" ones become a struggle, stop adding in new ones and just keep on reviewing, then add more. Maybe 3 sessions of fact learning each day - around 15 minutes for each session? She will get good, and she will KNOW she is good finally at math. Then start back up with her other math lessons again. She will have more confidence AND she will be much quicker because she'll have her math facts down.

[songsparrow]

If she's having trouble remembering her math facts, give her a multiplication chart that she can refer to as she feels the need.  It takes off the pressure and allows her to focus on the skill at hand (in this case, simplifying fractions).

 

Are you working through the problems together until she feels comfortable?  I've never used MM, but maybe she needs a different style of teaching.  Does she find working with manipulatives useful?  Might she find videos like the ones from Khan Academy useful?  Might she like the storytelling style of Life of Fred?  

 

And keep the encouragement coming.  Acknowledge that fractions are hard, but you have confidence that she'll get it if she keeps trying.  Remind her of other math tasks that she struggled with, said she could never learn, but now she does easily.  

 

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

Ditch MM.  I'm sorry, but the lady is a foreigner, not a native english speaker, and it really comes across in the math.  My dd THINKS of math the way MM does, but there were just oddities about how things were explained etc.  At 13, it's time to cut your losses.  She's doing 5th gr math at age 13 with a challenging curriculum she can't get to work.  Get an easy curriculum and move forward.  Frankly, Teaching Textbooks was a GODSEND for us.  It gets done.  If you've tried it and it didn't work, fine try something else.  

 

Is she on meds?  

Is she experiencing puberty?

Is she experiencing the FOG of puberty?  I SWEAR my dd spent a year or two telling me 3+4 was 8.  I KID YOU NOT.  It was unbelievable.

 

When she says she can't think, she can't.  Give her a math table.  Actually, go ahead and give her a calculator.  Give her a new math program, and give her a calculator.  Any time it's single digit addition/subtraction/multiplication, she does it in her head or with the math table.  If it's more than single digit, use the calculator.  Sit beside her during the Teaching Textbooks lesson and have her ask when she wants to use the calculator.  That way she gets in the routine.  Single digit will be faster in her head.  What you're actually doing there is protecting her processing so she doesn't wear out.

 

That's what we did, same age, same frustration, and our computation scores went up 20%-ile points in one year.  No joke.  It had NOTHING to do with whether she knew her math facts but was puberty, frustration, her brain locking up, the program, etc. etc.  She needed time, she needed math she could DO.  Sometimes EASIER is better.  I DON'T think doing the hardest dang math program out there is necessarily the way to get the best results out of all kids.  My kid has CONSISTENTLY high test scores, even with Teaching Textbooks.  People who haven't used it scream to high heaven, but with some kids, some situations short, easy, in and out is better.

 

 

 

 

[Rebel Yell]

I let my girls use a multiplication chart for certian things like multiplying fractions.  Mostly, they used it to double-check themselves and speed up the process.

 

Sometimes, goofy hormones kick in and even the brightest, most obedient, well behaved child with the best curriculum and most patient teacher just needs time for the brain to make new connections and mature. Often, whichever random program happened to work when the brain is finally ready is given credit- but often, time was the magic factor.

 

In a homeschool setting, taking 6 months "off" from regular mathwork can easily be made up in the remaining 3-4 months of the school year (carefully selecting problems/lessons) where in a traditional school setting getting "behind" has little opportunity to catch up. Yes- we have done this- with both math and reading.  Especially reading.

 

Also, look into the time of day she does math.  Is she hungry?  Or too groggy after a big meal? Doe she need daylight and a comfy chair, or some white noise to mask distractions?  Crazy, but SweetChild actually did far better in math when she worked at the computer under the window while I Love Lucy or the Dick van Dyke show was running on Netflix in the background, about halfway in between meals.

[PeterPan]

Your goal is to get them back to the zen zone where they feel brilliant.  I'm not being trite here.  What would it take and what would you have to do to get that?  There is NO compelling reason to use Math Mammoth with a struggling dc.  It has no pictures, no clear helps, no teaching instruction.  There's not actually even a compelling reason to stay in computation with her at this age.  See when you have a kid with these issues, computation is NEVER going to be a strong point.  I could do division ALL DAY FOR YEARS and it's never going to be this awesome point for my dd.  It's just too much processing.  So we cut our losses and move on.  MOVE ON.  Give her a placement test for something sensible (and maligned) like TT.  Sit down with her and watch her do it.  Knit or something.  Give her something she can do that is so stinkin' easy that she's a ROCK STAR.  THEN you have your zen mode back, THEN you have something to build on.

 

Once I had that, then I could come in and do 10 minutes of another program with her, which is what I do with my dd.  But it took TT to get us there, and the other stuff is just bonus when we get to it.

 

Rock Star math, that's what you want.  I'm very ashamed in retrospect that I let the idiotic comments of people who HAD NEVER USED IT, keep me from trying TT so long.  It was total pride.  And what's weird, is the guy on TT really connects with her, but that's a whole other story.  Rock Star math, something where they can be successful.

[Rebel Yell]

Adding to my post above: I also let my girls use a calculator when they need to.  If the point of the problem is finding the answer to 487 divided by 5 then no...  but if it;s the process of solving a problem and using a calculator helps them do that more accurately, then we use it. The change in attitude has been nearly miraculous...

[PeterPan]

Just to pick up Rebel's awesome comments, yes, dd spent a year being constantly, CONSTANTLY hungry.  So yes, feed her.  We did the kitten on the lap (good sensory).  We did physical activity before math (so she could focus better).  We switched the time of day on math (afternoon is better for her).  Also the good fats like omega 3 can help.  But that 1-2 years of brain fog was unbelievable and drove us to the brink.  TT was my last ditch.  Would it have worked before?  Well I like to think it would have and do wish I had tried it earlier.  But yes I totally agree about the brain and puberty thing.  She's much more clear now.  Illogical and ornery, but clear.  :D

[BlsdMama]

Life of Fred.  Maybe doing this for percents and fractions could entice her to enjoy math again.  He saved my oldest DD with algebra. ;)  Now we're not used LoF, but her attitude towards math borders on pleasant. :)

[Farrar]

Well, while I think it's fine to ditch MM (or ANY program that isn't serving you well) if you feel that's the problem, I think MM can work for a struggling learner.  It's extremely incremental and is full of baby steps, yet is also very conceptual.  While I'm well aware that Maria Miller's presentation doesn't work for everyone (it doesn't work for one of my boys at all and we only use MM with one ds) it doesn't seem like a foreign language at all to me any more than many other programs.  Math just has a lot of different ways it can be presented these days.  I'm not clear from the OP if the problem is facts recall or concepts or just the presentation in MM.  So just from what you said, my first impulse wouldn't necessarily be to scrap your program.

 

ETA: For me one of the strengths of MM is that I can sit next to ds when he's doing it and we can "buddy math" it as the Let's Play Math blog suggests.  We take turn doing the problems.  When I do mine, I talk out the solution out loud.  I wouldn't be able to do that with many other programs because there wouldn't be enough problems, but it works really well for my ds who uses MM.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I know that part of her problem is that she can't seem to remember her math facts...but the biggest problem is her bad attitude towards math.

I would bet that the biggest reason she has a bad attitude about math is because she doesn't have her math facts down. Almost every problem past the point when times tables are supposed to be memorized becomes ridiculously tedious and complex when what should be minor calculations demand excessive time and energy. It would be like me trying to make a European recipe that I had to convert from metric to US standard as I go add each ingredient. Hard, hard, hard! It turns something that should be relatively easy into a complex task.

 

I gave my oldest a math facts chart because he knew the concept, just needed more time to absorb the facts. Eventually he learned them all, without stress and without feeling like a math failure. Memorizing math facts does not equal being good at math! DS would have told you that he invented multiplication himself, he understood it so well. LOL But memorizing the whole chart? A separate skill that has little to do with math acumen. Yes, he could calculate them in his head, but that took time, and when you take time in a long division or multi-step fraction problem, you split your attention, forget where you are in the actual problem, and become sidetracked by frustration.

 

If she's having trouble remembering her math facts, give her a multiplication chart that she can refer to as she feels the need. It takes off the pressure and allows her to focus on the skill at hand (in this case, simplifying fractions).

 

I agree.

[ProudGrandma]

we have tried Saxon, MUS, MOTL, LOF, Key to..., and MM for math. yes, I know that is a lot of different maths...but each and every one we had this problem at some point. So i really don't think it's the program. I also allow her a mult table to use...but that doesn't help "it makes me feel like a little kid"....could be hormones...but can we really afford to take off from math for 2 more years when we are already 2 years behind? Time of day? could be...but not sure. She eats when she wants to...so that isn't the issue.

 

not trying to shoot down evey idea here...just trying to give you a clearer picture of situation.

[Alte Veste Academy]

we have tried Saxon, MUS, MOTL, LOF, Key to..., and MM for math. yes, I know that is a lot of different maths...but each and every one we had this problem at some point. So i really don't think it's the program. I also allow her a mult table to use...but that doesn't help "it makes me feel like a little kid"....could be hormones...but can we really afford to take off from math for 2 more years when we are already 2 years behind? Time of day? could be...but not sure. She eats when she wants to...so that isn't the issue.

 

not trying to shoot down evey idea here...just trying to give you a clearer picture of situation.

Do you teach the math and do it with her? Some kids need a math mentor and partner to find any enjoyment in the subject.

[nova mama]

Do you include computer time in your school day?  At the beginning of each chapter there are links to games and online helps that my kids sometimes enjoy.  You could even go back to old chapters and pick the links from there.  It  takes me a little while to go through them and find the ones that will work for us, and occasionally the links are no longer active.  But some of them have been a big hit.  Hope that helps!

[8filltheheart]

Well, my answer is completely different from others. I would put away the math books and work on memorizing her math tables. She is not 9. She is 13. Unless she has an LD, a 13 yo should be able to memorize her tables, even if she has to go back to skip counting. I would also not let her use a calculator. I would make her work out the math.

 

That said, now is the time I would back up and achieve success and mastery of simple basic operations with integers before moving forward to fractions and percentages. I would not accept complaints of it being baby work, bc if it is, she should be able to mastery it quickly. If not, maybe she does have an LD.

 

Fwiw, I love Math It's approach to memorizing tables. I would also consider having her do something like Calculadders daily. You set the times for 1-3 minutes and they do as many as they can in that amt of time. Keep a chart for her to see her progress and how much faster she becomes. Set up a reward system or goal of some sort to make her want to improve.

 

I would then drop MM. I would get Lial's Basic College Math which covers all elementary math concepts. It will probably make her feel far better than using a 5th grade text and cover any gaps she has and hopefully have her finish the yr almost on grade level.

[AK_Mom4]

I like 8's ideas.  We often start the math day with DD12 filling out a blank times table sheet.  You can print them out here:

http://www.atozteacherstuff.com/pdf.htm?math/mult_table_fillall.pdf

 

Every morning.  It takes her about 5 minutes and the rule is that once she fills it out, she can use it in her daily work.  But the funny thing is - once she has filled it out, she rarely needs to use it again because the facts are fresh in her brain. 

 

The Lial's book is really good.  Explanations are clear and problems are reasonable.  You can get it used on Amazon for under $10 and just the title "Basic College Math" will help with the attitude problem.

 

[Susan in TX]

Try Khan Academy. It is free. I have not used it in our homeschool, but my high schoolers who are in public school use it. It is self-paced and starts at the beginning.

 

Have you tried Christian Light Math? My son has LDs and he struggled with math. CLE worked well for him. I would have your daughter take the Christian Light placement test and put her where she needs to be...even if it is several grade levels below where she should be. My son went from the middle of 4th grade Christian Light to public school 8th grade math and he did fine.

 

Susan in TX

 

[PeterPan]

we have tried Saxon, MUS, MOTL, LOF, Key to..., and MM for math. yes, I know that is a lot of different maths...but each and every one we had this problem at some point. So i really don't think it's the program. I also allow her a mult table to use...but that doesn't help "it makes me feel like a little kid"....could be hormones...but can we really afford to take off from math for 2 more years when we are already 2 years behind? Time of day? could be...but not sure. She eats when she wants to...so that isn't the issue.

 

not trying to shoot down evey idea here...just trying to give you a clearer picture of situation.

 

You know I wonder if you've been looking at your learning style or hers??  All those programs are practically alike: black and white text on paper.  My dd would never learn well with those, not ANY of them, and all for the same reason. OF COURSE she's feels like she's being treated like a little kid.  She's being given something with 5 on the top and still failing.  No, I would not stop math for the next two years.

 

This child has or has not had evals?  I'm just asking if you actually know the reason behind her struggles.  At some point getting WORDS for the problem helps you solve it.  For some reason I was thinking we were on the SN board.  I can't remember, but didn't you have another thread recently that hinted toward SN?  And that was for a different dc or the same dc?  At some point, that's the real question.

 

So everything you've done is b&w on paper.  Try color with narrative-style instruction with computer.  Try something totally different.  If nothing else, take the TT placement test.  It might allow her to place up, which would help with attitude .  Let her take the placement test with her multiplication table btw.  

 

BJU --color, narrative

CLE-- not in color, but has the virtue of intelligent spiral

Teaching Textbooks--might be expensive, but I think it has a guarantee?  Anyways, it has been gold for us.  

math tutor--This isn't a program, just a reality check.  When it's not going well, sometimes some outside help can be good.  Might be accountability, fresh eyes on the situation, patience, new enthusiasm, new ideas on how to connect with her.

[Farrar]

But there's a heck of a lot more to a math program than whether or not it's in color.  MUS, LoF, Saxon and MM are really nothing alike, IMO.  They have extremely different approaches.  And MUS is so hands on and the blocks are so colorful.  And MOTL is written to the teacher, not the student, so it's all about how you carry it out - the lessons aren't flat words on the page at all.  I know that sometimes the look of a thing can make a difference to kids, but honestly, I don't see it as anywhere near as fundamental as something like spiral versus mastery or in what terms the information is presented, or what type of problems are given, especially not for an older kid.

 

It does seem like TT might be good since it's often such a success with kids who are struggling and the level is a little lower though.

 

I'm still not totally clear from what's been said if it's basic math facts that are the problem.  But if so, I think there may be something to stopping to try to get it right before you go on.  I've seen some kids get it from just keeping working - they get the concept, the fluency comes with practice across the board.  But it can also stop a kid from being able to do something.  I mean, if you're looking at 18/72 and you don't just automatically see that they have 9 in common or 18 in common because you are versed in multiplication facts, then you are going to struggle to simplify them and if you don't see it, then the amount of work to get to where you do can feel very nebulous and unending.  Having the chart in front of you may just feel like a long list of random numbers, you know?

[Rebel Yell]

we have tried Saxon, MUS, MOTL, LOF, Key to..., and MM for math. yes, I know that is a lot of different maths...but each and every one we had this problem at some point. So i really don't think it's the program. I also allow her a mult table to use...but that doesn't help "it makes me feel like a little kid"....could be hormones...but can we really afford to take off from math for 2 more years when we are already 2 years behind? Time of day? could be...but not sure. She eats when she wants to...so that isn't the issue.

 

not trying to shoot down evey idea here...just trying to give you a clearer picture of situation.

 

Most middle-grades math programs are nearly identical...  very little new material until Algebra. It just repeats, adding a few new concepts, but really, it seems to be a holding pattern until Algebra. So even if she is two years behind in math, that doesn't necessarily mean she has to do 3 or 4 years of math books to catch up.

 

Here's what I did: I used college textbooks. "Basic College Mathematics" seems to be roughly the equivalent of 7th grade math- the last level before pre-algebra. We went through it at an uneven pace... but were never behind- it is a 1-semester college class, and worked well for a full year in 7th grade. It is not set up like typical school books with 120, 150, or 180 days/lessons. We just did each lesson, and every-other odd problem. (most sections had 100 problems) if she needed more work, she did the remainign odd problems, and only three times did we have to go to the evens.

 

There was no need to do all themath books in between, KWIM?  We just took as long as we needed to get through the basic math book, and then moved on tot he pre-algebra book. So you can take a year or two to get where she needs to be, and I bet when she;s truly ready for Algebra, she'll move much more quickly..

[BlsdMama]

Well, my answer is completely different from others. I would put away the math books and work on memorizing her math tables. She is not 9. She is 13. Unless she has an LD, a 13 yo should be able to memorize her tables, even if she has to go back to skip counting. I would also not let her use a calculator. I would make her work out the math.

 

 

 

I think her post is excellent, especially this.  I think the give away is that she doesn't want to feel like a little kid by using a multiplication table. ;) 

[PeterPan]

Yup, like Rebel, I would say to move her up into a gr 7 book unless there's some major reason not to.  BCM is equivalent to a gr 7 text.  7/BCM will go through computation one semester and some pre-algebra concepts the next.  Hopefully (fingers crossed) if she takes the placement test for TT 7 using her multiplication table, she'd test into it. She might even test into their pre-algebra, if you're really lucky.  

 

Btw, I'm coming down so hard on MM because we *used* it, right about the same age/stage, and it was a wasted 6 months for us, utterly wasted.  (didn't improve her computation, didn't get her testing into a higher level in any other program)  It's fine math, but sometimes, at some point, you move on.

[PeterPan]

Btw, the reason those programs can pan out so similarly, is because they're providing minimal instruction to the mom and the mom is the same.  BJU, for instance, will be totally different, with color on the page, stories to go with the lessons, lots of scenarios and stories to bring the concepts and word problems to life.  TT, same deal, lots of use of narrative.  NO ONE talks about this.  They all act like spiral vs. mastery is the holy grail.  It's still saying you can teach them in a linear, non-engaging fashion and the question is merely how much you try to pound it in.  Some kids need to be taught DIFFERENTLY.

 

If working exclusively on facts a while nails it, that's awesome.  Some kids will have those cement and some won't.  We worked on facts till we were BLUE in the face.  Her facts finally solidified the year she started using a calculator.  I think it was partly that she could stop stressing about the processing and start thinking about whether she knew it and whether it was faster to use the help or do it herself.  Some kids are odd like that.  My dh says his spelling has improved most by using spell checker, the very thing they tell you NOT to use with kids with spelling issues.  I also sort of assume the op has worked on that before.  I mean, by 13, the mom has *probably* figured out the kid needs some work on it.  There's usually something that needs an eval.  But you know everyone has their comfort zone there.

[letsplaymath]

Puberty brain fog is real, and also the emotional mother-daughter conflicts that often come with puberty may be a contributing factor. Or maybe not --- you don't say how you and your daughter get along apart from school, but it's clear from the original post that you are both pretty worked up about math right now, and that high level of emotion makes it almost impossible to think clearly about anything.

 

Something has to change. And you are right that taking two years off math is not a solution.

 

But could you take 2-3 weeks? Not completely off, but doing something totally different that is still math, just not the type of math that she's been banging her head against. That way, the emotions would have time to cool down, and you will both have time to think about what to do next.

 

Things you could try during your "textbook break":

• daily online logic puzzles: Daily Treasure, and the Set Daily Puzzle
• logic games like Mastermind, or logic puzzle apps on a smart phone or tablet
• the Dragonbox app
• coordinate graphing puzzle games
• taxicab geometry

None of these are babyish. All of them are "real" math: logic, thinking skills, algebra, geometry --- stuff your daughter will need to learn, and stuff that shouldn't have all that emotional baggage attached.

 

I would also suggest adding the Danica McKellar book Math Doesn't Suck. My daughter (now 14yo) has thoroughly enjoyed all the Danica math books, and they are a refreshing break from textbook work. When we had our seasons of mother-daughter emotional stress the last few years, it was nice to be able to step back and say, "Go do math with Danica."

 

A reasonable daily schedule for your daughter might be (1) read her choice of sections in the Danica book, about 15-20 minutes' worth, (2) play 15-20 minutes worth of online logic puzzle or math games, and (3--optional!) no more than 10 minutes of practice on arithmetic facts.

 

For practicing the math facts, again you want to try something totally unlike whatever you have done before. Here are some of my favorite ways to practice:

• KenKen puzzles
• Free Rice: multiplication or general math (pre-algebra)
• playing Contig (without a timer!)
• the Target Number game (without racing)

And if you want more focused work on the times tables, I have on my blog a low-stress, conversational approach that focuses on building pre-algebra skills:

• Times Table Series

While she is taking her break from the textbook, you should do some homework of your own: buy or borrow an old, used edition of Basic College Mathematics, as 8FillTheHeart suggested above. Sometimes you can get it through your library, or the older editions that the colleges aren't using any more will be really cheap to buy (just go down a few pages in the search results to find them), and the math is still the same. There are a variety of authors who do similar books, so if you can get more than one, that will let you compare to see if you prefer one author or another.

 

Look at the book and consider whether it might be a good choice for your daughter, whenever she's ready to be brave and tackle arithmetic again. The fact that it's a college book should give her confidence that she's not as "behind" as you and she had thought. She CAN do this! Take it slowly, just a couple of pages a day. It is a college book, so it's okay to take longer than a year, if you need to.

 

And then whether you use a college textbook, or go back to Math Mammoth, or use something else, I urge you to consider doing the math buddy-style. It has really, hugely helped my daughter's attitude about math that I'm not asking her to do it on her own, and that I give her the control of choosing which problems she does.

 

[ProudGrandma]

we do math together...I sit right next to her...trying to help her step by step....sometimes that helps...sometimes not.  thanks for all of the ideas...links and such.  I will look at each one later.

 

 

[Jamee]

Knowing how my son and I get along, I wonder if you'd both be better off getting a tutor, to be able to separate yourselves and give her a different approach.  For learning math facts, we've had success with XtraMath.  It's an online program, free, and only takes a few minutes each day.  Good luck.  I know the feeling.  Since I've turned math over to the husband, it's been much smoother sailing here.

[idnib]

Just some encouragement...

 

My (public-schooled) brother was a lot like this. It turns out he's really good at math, and even works in a financial field with lots of numbers. He's teaching himself Calculus now.

 

Hang in there...

[Haiku]

I agree with Elizabeth. Ditch MM. It's a challenging program and it takes a certain feel for math and sometimes the explanations are wonky.

[Trilliums]

Have you tried Khan academy?  She could start from the very beginning...my son did this at age 13 and in one year went from prealg level to complete alg 1.  At that time he also spent some time focusing on math drills as rapid recal of math facts was definitely dragging him down.

 

 Both of my kids just couldn't remember their math facts. Oi! it was so frustrating.  Anyways, once we gave up on elementary level math and went into prealgebra, math became more interesting and they started doing MUCH better.   I think they are actually good at math, they are just bad at computation.  :)

 

They also are very visual.  Could you work out the problems using math cubes or beans?

 

Also, I think the best math tool we had was a giant jar of coins.  We'd count them and rearrange them and talk about and explore ratios and fractions, without a work sheet.

 

 

[ProudGrandma]

I agree with Elizabeth. Ditch MM. It's a challenging program and it takes a certain feel for math and sometimes the explanations are wonky.

 

If I would ditch MM...and since ihave tried about 5 other programs...with similar results...what do I do?  I simply can't afford to keep trying new programs...not to mention, that can't be good for dd either.   So I am REALLY confused now. 

[8filltheheart]

BCM is cheap and thorough.

[Haiku]

If I would ditch MM...and since ihave tried about 5 other programs...with similar results...what do I do?  I simply can't afford to keep trying new programs...not to mention, that can't be good for dd either.   So I am REALLY confused now.

I'd go with Teaching Textbooks. It saved math for my non-mathy kid (my mathy kids really liked it).

[PeterPan]

If I would ditch MM...and since ihave tried about 5 other programs...with similar results...what do I do?  I simply can't afford to keep trying new programs...not to mention, that can't be good for dd either.   So I am REALLY confused now. 

 

 

I'd go with Teaching Textbooks. It saved math for my non-mathy kid (my mathy kids really liked it).

 

Does TT have a money back guarantee?  If they do, you can't go wrong.  It would be radically different from what you've been doing.  At least give her the placement tests and just see where she'd place.  That would cost you NOTHING except the ink.  At this point, you couldn't actually get much worse, kwim?  And one thing you're looking for is some instruction space between you and her.  What's going to change is that YOU aren't the one explaining.  She'll have someone else's explanations and ways of thinking of it.  That's what will be different.  

 

Don't be afraid.  Call them, have them ship it to you.  It will be to you in just a few days, depending on where you live.  By Monday you'll have a new, happy math program and can give it a whirl.  :)

[Haiku]

Also, there are (or at least used to be) extensive sample lessons on the TT website. My son worked through many sample lessons before we took the plunge and bought it.

[DarlaS]

BCM is cheap and thorough.

:iagree:

 

I'm using this with my dd 13. I have found that for *this* kid though, that the layout of the book can be a little busy.

 

So my plan for the rest of it is to go over the objectives and have her do the odds (or certain problems I pick) from the Additional Drill and Skill book. That gives a more typical math lesson of about 25 problems (not including the examples we do together). The Drill and Skill Manual is very plain. Just problems on a page.

 

Then we'll do chapter tests and occasionally the cumulative reviews.

 

I may have this particular kid do their prealgebra also. I know people usually do one or the other, but I can't see her going right into algebra after this. She is rather stubborn--and impatient for work that requires focus.

[ProudGrandma]

what is BCM?

[Trilliums]

How about ck-12 free online text books?  I see they have an alg for 7th graders (probably like prealg) then they go onto algebra.

http://www.ck12.org/algebra/

 

Khan, online, is free and, IMO, very good.  She may benefit from video lectures. 

 

FWIW, DS tried Lial's algebra and it wasn't a good fit. I don't know if BCM is similar, but he did find the Lial's busy and often over simplified or broken down into too many steps.  We pieced together algebra, filling in the gaps as needed.  With more interesting concepts, he was definitely more engaged and the math facts and concepts slowly solidified.

 

Also, just to mention, my older son is very stubborn and was horrible at math and hated, hated it.  He ended up loving Art of Problem Solving.  I think this curriculum gets passed over by families with struggling students of a particular mindset (stubborn and interested in concepts but not basic math) when it can actually be a good fit. 

[8filltheheart]

what is BCM?

Lial's Basic College Math

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0321557123/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used

[Trilliums]

what is BCM?

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0321557123/ref=tmm_pap_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&qid=1377102382&sr=1-1

 

Basic College Math by Margaret Lial.  That is a link to used copy of an older edition.  Would be under $12 including shipping.

 

 

I'd try to develop her math skills without worksheets though.  Talk about math, measure stuff, do some of the hands on activities listed on MM web site.  I suspect it is the abstractness of the concepts, the apparent non-connection to real life and the boringness of the drills getting to her. 

[8filltheheart]

Khan, online, is free and, IMO, very good. She may benefit from video lectures.

 

Also, just to mention, my older son is very stubborn and was horrible at math and hated, hated it. He ended up loving Art of Problem Solving. I think this curriculum gets passed over by families with struggling students of a particular mindset (stubborn and interested in concepts but not basic math) when it can actually be a good fit.

I honestly cannot imagine AOPS being a good fit for a student that doesn't understand fractions.

[ProudGrandma]

today we tired the buddy math system...and she liked the idea of me doing a problem and then her...so that might be a good way to approach...

[PeterPan]

 

FWIW, DS tried Lial's algebra and it wasn't a good fit. I don't know if BCM is similar, but he did find the Lial's busy and often over simplified or broken down into too many steps.  We pieced together algebra, filling in the gaps as needed.  With more interesting concepts, he was definitely more engaged and the math facts and concepts slowly solidified.

 

Also, just to mention, my older son is very stubborn and was horrible at math and hated, hated it.  He ended up loving Art of Problem Solving.  I think this curriculum gets passed over by families with struggling students of a particular mindset (stubborn and interested in concepts but not basic math) when it can actually be a good fit. 

 

 

what is BCM?

BCM=Lial's Basic College Math.  You can pick up an old edition used on amazon for a pittance.  I tried the Lial pre-algebra on dd.  It was fine, nothing stellar.  As the others said, the print is small, the pages loaded (after all, it's a college text aimed at college students), and it's still remedial, which is why the thought process isn't going to fit for some kids.  It just didn't have any advantages for us and still was me teaching her, the real problem.

[Trilliums]

I honestly cannot imagine AOPS being a good fit for a student that doesn't understand fractions.

 

Yep and this is what kept me from trying AoPS (not imagining it being a good fit for my kids because of their struggles).  I finally bought geometry for my older son (after he did Saxon alg) and then pre-alg for younger son (who was struggling with everything else we tried).  The pre-alg chapter on fractions along with Khan academy helped clarify so much for DS although  I realize part of it may have been developmental.  Still, prior to working through that section of AoPS, I had a hard time even pinpointing where DS was having problems.   Approaching the concepts and thinking about them new ways did seem to help (at least, the end result was a kid ready to go onto and succeed in alg and geometry--I, of course, cannot claim that it was all AoPS but it definitely got us thinking and talking about math in new ways.)

[DarlaS]

FWIW, DS tried Lial's algebra and it wasn't a good fit. I don't know if BCM is similar, but he did find the Lial's busy and often over simplified or broken down into too many steps.

Definitely an issue for some kids. I am teaching myself using Introductory Algebra, and I am finding my groove using mainly the DVTs (Digital Video Tutors) and the Drill and Skill manual. I have found myself confused at some of the explanations.

 

They took like 1/2 page to explain proportions, and really only needed to say that cross products are equal. (I am mostly likely an ADD adult, so I always just blamed it on that.)

[8filltheheart]

Yep and this is what kept me from trying AoPS (not imagining it being a good fit for my kids because of their struggles).  I finally bought geometry for my older son (after he did Saxon alg) and then pre-alg for younger son (who was struggling with everything else we tried).  The pre-alg chapter on fractions along with Khan academy helped clarify so much for DS although  I realize part of it may have been developmental.  Still, prior to working through that section of AoPS, I had a hard time even pinpointing where DS was having problems.   Approaching the concepts and thinking about them new ways did seem to help (at least, the end result was a kid ready to go onto and succeed in alg and geometry--I, of course, cannot claim that it was all AoPS but it definitely got us thinking and talking about math in new ways.)

 

I am going to speculate that your ds was incredibly bored and needed challenge.   Perhaps he needed a better form of instruction.   But, I do not believe that his experience translates into struggling students doing well with AoPS.   I have never seen the lower levels, but the higher levels are definitely not going to be a good fit for any student that doesn't have a solid foundation and isn't willing to wrestle through very challenging problems.   (not the type of kid that is hitting their head and pounding fists over simple fractions.)

[mommymilkies]

I agree. NOT AoPS. That would be a horrible fit. Drop MM. I think it's good for some kids, but drive even my Kathy kids to tears and tantrums every.single.time. I even tried hiding what it was.

[katilac]

Does TT have a money back guarantee?

They have a 30-day money back guarantee, but they do specify that the book has to be in 'resalable' condition. I'm not sure what they mean by that - we keep our books in excellent condition, but after 30 days, it is not going to appear brand new, and I can't imagine selling it as brand new.

 

 

today we tired the buddy math system...and she liked the idea of me doing a problem and then her...so that might be a good way to approach...

Good mom, lol. I always tell my kids, I have ALREADY DONE 7th grade math. It's your turn!

[DarlaS]

Good mom, lol. I always tell my kids, I have ALREADY DONE 7th grade math. It's your turn!

I said exactly this to my 5th grader today (Only about 5th grade math)! lol!

[Trilliums]

I am going to speculate that your ds was incredibly bored and needed challenge.   Perhaps he needed a better form of instruction.   But, I do not believe that his experience translates into struggling students doing well with AoPS.   I have never seen the lower levels, but the higher levels are definitely not going to be a good fit for any student that doesn't have a solid foundation and isn't willing to wrestle through very challenging problems.   (not the type of kid that is hitting their head and pounding fists over simple fractions.)

 

 

 

I encounter, over and over again, posts about kids who sound just like my boys during elementary years.  They can't get the long division algorithm, don't understand fractions, haven't memorize math facts, or can't do whatever math process.  They wail over math and declare their hatred for the subject.  The families do not consider AoPS because it is automatically dismissed as "horrible for the struggling student".  Maybe some of these kids are incredibly bored, in need of challenge or a better form of instruction as you speculate, all reasons why students might be struggling.   Maybe for some of these kids AoPS will be a good fit after all.  I would not make a blanket statement saying that AoPS is a program where struggling students do well.  But, that doesn't mean it cannot be a good fit for some. 

[ktgrok]

we have tried Saxon, MUS, MOTL, LOF, Key to..., and MM for math. yes, I know that is a lot of different maths...but each and every one we had this problem at some point. So i really don't think it's the program. I also allow her a mult table to use...but that doesn't help "it makes me feel like a little kid"....could be hormones...but can we really afford to take off from math for 2 more years when we are already 2 years behind? Time of day? could be...but not sure. She eats when she wants to...so that isn't the issue.

 

not trying to shoot down evey idea here...just trying to give you a clearer picture of situation.

 

CLE is cheap, and worth a try. It is spiral, and incremental like TT, but cheap to start with. Mosf of what you listed above (other than Saxon) is Mastery Based, and/or very conceptual. Try something different.