If you DON'T like WWS....Why?

[mo2]

:)

[Mom22ns]

i wouldn't really say I don't like WWS, but after completing WWS 1 and signing up to be a beta tester for WWS 2, dd begged me not to do it and I acquiesced. 

 

When she did WWS 1, she didn't hate it and her writing did improve some. However, WWS is very much parts to whole. You work on pieces of the writing puzzle (so to speak) in isolation. She could do the pieces, but when it came to the later lessons where things were supposed to come together, she was lost. She felt lost through the whole thing even though she could produce what Susan asked for she didn't get why she was doing it. She needed to see the goal, the big picture much earlier in the process.

 

It actually reminded me of math when she was in ps. She always got As, but she felt lost. It was an exploration based curriculum very parts to whole. My dd just doesn't work that way.

[hollyhock]

Keep in mind that I actually haven't used WWS, but I have looked over the samples endlessly because it keeps calling my name and I keep wanting to like it.

 

I find it confusing and too detailed. *I* feel lost when I read the lessons. I would also rather choose my own passages. I like things simple and straight-forward and I feel that WWS isn't like that; as if it makes things more complicated than they need to be. Some people love that. Maybe it's a learning style issue, I don't know. But my son seems to be the same way. I just can't imagine him doing well with it.

 

So instead we do narrations and outlining and lit essays the way SWB has outlined in her audio lectures and in the WTM. This way makes so much sense to me and my son seems to be doing well with it. Last year, in 5th, his written summaries improved vastly over the course of the year, just by writing them twice a week and having me give him feedback on areas that sounded awkward, or were unnecessary, etc. So we are going to keep on with that.

[Mom0012]

i wouldn't really say I don't like WWS, but after completing WWS 1 and signing up to be a beta tester for WWS 2, dd begged me not to do it and I acquiesced. 

 

When she did WWS 1, she didn't hate it and her writing did improve some. However, WWS is very much parts to whole. You work on pieces of the writing puzzle (so to speak) in isolation. She could do the pieces, but when it came to the later lessons where things were supposed to come together, she was lost. She felt lost through the whole thing even though she could produce what Susan asked for she didn't get why she was doing it. She needed to see the goal, the big picture much earlier in the process.

 

It actually reminded me of math when she was in ps. She always got As, but she felt lost. It was an exploration based curriculum very parts to whole. My dd just doesn't work that way.

So what are you using instead?  I have done half of WWS 1 with my son and he did well with it.  I was thinking of picking it back up again this year, but I wondered the same thing.  Even though his writing for some of the WWS assignments was better than anything that he'd ever written before, I wasn't sure he was going to be able to put all the pieces together and understand why he was doing each part. 

[Luckymama]

It was too incremental for dd.

[Momling]

I didn't care for the terminology used -- copia, topoi, etc..

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

We are only on week 8 of WWS but are loving it. However, my kid has already done a lot of paragraph and essay writing with book reports in 3rd grade, Writing Skills by EPS, IEW US History with Classical Conversations, and papers last year in school so he already has a big picture so to speak. Perhaps a quick run through Writing Skills or the Paragraph Book which I used to get ds up to speed on school writing before WWS would be helpful.

[Mom22ns]

So what are you using instead?  I have done half of WWS 1 with my son and he did well with it.  I was thinking of picking it back up again this year, but I wondered the same thing.  Even though his writing for some of the WWS assignments was better than anything that he'd ever written before, I wasn't sure he was going to be able to put all the pieces together and understand why he was doing each part. 

 

We've really done a hodgepodge of writing. Dd, who did WWS, did a year of SL LA, Jump In, and The Lively Art of Writing during her middle school years. (5-8th). Jump In was her favorite and worked well with her. She is a natural writer who had trouble transitioning from creative writing in ps to more fact based writing when she came home. Lively has improved the quality of her essays tremendously and I am very glad we added that in too.

 

Ds was my reluctant writer (who now wants to be a professional writer). He did writing with no curriculum (the system I learned as a kid), Wordsmith Apprentice, Jump In, and SL during middle school. He is an amazing writer today and produces the most insightful papers. He is hoping to pursue a BFA in Creative Writing in college. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to outsource some writing classes during his last two years of high school, but he has a very full load and is already doing some dual enrollment.

[Mom0012]

We've really done a hodgepodge of writing. Dd, who did WWS, did a year of SL LA, Jump In, and The Lively Art of Writing during her middle school years. (5-8th). Jump In was her favorite and worked well with her. She is a natural writer who had trouble transitioning from creative writing in ps to more fact based writing when she came home. Lively has improved the quality of her essays tremendously and I am very glad we added that in too.

 

Ds was my reluctant writer (who now wants to be a professional writer). He did writing with no curriculum (the system I learned as a kid), Wordsmith Apprentice, Jump In, and SL during middle school. He is an amazing writer today and produces the most insightful papers. He is hoping to pursue a BFA in Creative Writing in college. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to outsource some writing classes during his last two years of high school, but he has a very full load and is already doing some dual enrollment.

Thanks for letting me know what worked for your kids.  Alas, my son is not a natural writer by any stretch of the imagination and really struggles with it, so I'm not sure what will work for him.

[Mom0012]

We've really done a hodgepodge of writing. Dd, who did WWS, did a year of SL LA, Jump In, and The Lively Art of Writing during her middle school years. (5-8th). Jump In was her favorite and worked well with her. She is a natural writer who had trouble transitioning from creative writing in ps to more fact based writing when she came home. Lively has improved the quality of her essays tremendously and I am very glad we added that in too.

 

Ds was my reluctant writer (who now wants to be a professional writer). He did writing with no curriculum (the system I learned as a kid), Wordsmith Apprentice, Jump In, and SL during middle school. He is an amazing writer today and produces the most insightful papers. He is hoping to pursue a BFA in Creative Writing in college. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to outsource some writing classes during his last two years of high school, but he has a very full load and is already doing some dual enrollment.

Thanks for letting me know what worked for your kids.  Alas, my son is not a natural writer by any stretch of the imagination and really struggles with it, so I'm not sure what will work for him.

[Mom22ns]

Thanks for letting me know what worked for your kids.  Alas, my son is not a natural writer by any stretch of the imagination and really struggles with it, so I'm not sure what will work for him.

 

Wordsmith Apprentice is VERY gentle. It is just an inexpensive workbook, not much to lose. I think it was huge in engaging ds to write.

[Mom0012]

Wordsmith Apprentice is VERY gentle. It is just an inexpensive workbook, not much to lose. I think it was huge in engaging ds to write.

Thx! I'll take a look at it.

[SilverMoon]

My DD beta tested level one of WWS after years of Classical Writing. She could do the work asked of her, and her confidence grew, but neither of us liked the assignments being so detached from what we were learning. If it had a guide book like a CW core or the WWE hardback we might have stuck with it.

 

We never could have done something like the WWE workbooks either. That's just not how we do writing. We did WTM style grammar stage writing with just the recommendations in the book.

[mo2]

Thanks all.   I'm torn because I think that my dd needs very incremental, detailed instruction in writing, but when I look at the WWS samples, it just seems like it would overwhelm her.

[Haiku]

We didn't like it for several reasons:

 

1. The selections to read were uninteresting to dd.

 

2. The instruction was far too wordy.

 

3. The terminology used was not what dd's peers and other teachers (as she got older and took outside classes) would be using.

 

4. The pacing of the lessons was inconsistent. Some were relatively shorter and some were what I felt to be rather ridiculously long.

 

5. It turned something my dd enjoyed doing and was good at into something tedious that she dreaded.

 

We are using instead School Composition, a vintage book from Google Books that accomplishes the same things in a much more straightforward, enjoyable, evenly paced way.

[Haiku]

Btw, I never even considered WWS for my son, who is delayed in language arts and not a strong writer. He would never understand it. We used WWE until shortly into level 3, where it outpaced his skills. Then we tried Winning With Writing, which he tolerates but which I loathe because the language is offensively simplistic. We will begin 5th grade with Writing Skills from EPS.

[Haiku]

http://books.google.com/books/about/School_Composition.html?id=E_8AAAAAYAAJ

 

It's followed by Writing in English by the same author.

[Alte Veste Academy]

i wouldn't really say I don't like WWS, but after completing WWS 1 and signing up to be a beta tester for WWS 2, dd begged me not to do it and I acquiesced. 

 

When she did WWS 1, she didn't hate it and her writing did improve some. However, WWS is very much parts to whole. You work on pieces of the writing puzzle (so to speak) in isolation. She could do the pieces, but when it came to the later lessons where things were supposed to come together, she was lost. She felt lost through the whole thing even though she could produce what Susan asked for she didn't get why she was doing it. She needed to see the goal, the big picture much earlier in the process.

 

It actually reminded me of math when she was in ps. She always got As, but she felt lost. It was an exploration based curriculum very parts to whole. My dd just doesn't work that way.

 

OK, this is my thing. I own WWS1 and have read/worked through it myself in preparation for teaching it. Generally speaking, I like it, but my big (maybe insurmountable?) hang-up is that I really want my kids writing across the curriculum. Really, really, REALLY love how easy it is to make that happen with the WWE 1-4 guide and IEW. IEW was supposed to be an interim program for us, a bridge between WWE and WWS and something to keep the kids moving forward while I wait until DD8 (almost 9) is old enough to do WWS with DS10. The mental block I'm facing is that the longer I work with IEW and have them writing across the curriculum, the stronger my commitment becomes to that--and the more I like IEW (and the more my kids like Andrew Pudewa :lol:). I read the recent thread about WWS2, and apparently kids get to self-select more of their own material...but I wonder if it's enough (for me) and if it's worth spending a very intense year in WWS1 to get there. My kids all like writing, and I have to wonder if that is partly because half the time they don't even think about it as a separate subject called "Writing." Most of the time when they are writing, they would actually tell you they are doing science, history, art, current events, and other stuff they love.

 

SilverMoon, you have fascinated me by mentioning that CW cores allow for writing across the curriculum. Really?! I looked at CW years ago and dismissed it (cannot even remember why), but I would love to hear more about how it works for linking writing with other subjects. I had so hoped that SWB would put out a guide for WWS similar to the one for WWE (although I can see how that would be a logistical nightmare, because the program is so very detailed). Still, that is my holy grail for mid to upper level writing.

 

WWS is very much parts to whole. You work on pieces of the writing puzzle (so to speak) in isolation. She could do the pieces, but when it came to the later lessons where things were supposed to come together, she was lost. She felt lost through the whole thing even though she could produce what Susan asked for she didn't get why she was doing it. She needed to see the goal, the big picture much earlier in the process.

 

This is my other concern. DS10 is very much a whole to parts person. I am starting to suspect that we all are. I know I am too. That may be why I love IEW TWSS. There it is. BAM. The whole program. :lol:

[Chrysalis Academy]

Well, I have a love-hate relationship with WWS, so I think that qualifies me to comment on this thread  ;)

 

What I don't like about WWS is the extreme parts-to-whole nature of the program.  The thing is, this isn't a flaw in the program, it's an explicit pedagogical choice.  You really have to look at it as step 1 in a 3-step program that prepares students for rhetorical writing.  As such, it explicitly just teaches them pieces in step 1 - you have to wait till later to learn to put the pieces together.  It teaches the pieces very well.

 

But here's the thing:  my kids, and me, like many of you, just can't learn and remember things if we don't understand why we're learning it, what it means, and how it fits in to the big picture.  Without that, all the pieces don't stick.  I mean, she can do each of the pieces, but it just flies in one ear and out the other, so I don't know if I can say she's actually *learning* it, KWIM?

 

I find that I must do this explicitly - I must teach the lesson again, in context.  I must teach the whole, or the part doesn't make any sense.  So, ok, I can do that, that's where writing across the curriculum comes in, and WWS does provide the tools to make sure you're doing the pieces correctly.  But I have to say, I'm really disappointed at how badly the pieces are sticking in the meantime.   

 

Here's an example, ripped from the headlines:  We did the Description of a Person/Biographical Sketch pieces last January.  This week, I've had dd read a biography of Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and her assignment is to write a biographical sketch.  Before she started reading, I had her go back and read the lessons in WWS to remind herself what the biographical sketch was all about.  She did this, then she read the book, then today I asked her to make notes for the two pieces of the biographical sketch - the description and the chronological narrative.

 

Well, she was totally clueless.  She looked at me like I was speaking Russian.  I said, "You reviewed the WWS lessons, right?" and she said yes, but she still didn't understand what she was supposed to do.  We had to go back and find her biographical sketches that she had written as WWS exercises, read them, and discuss what they were.  I basically realized I needed to re-teach her what to do almost from scratch.  

 

Again, it's ok - maybe it's unrealistic to think something she learned months ago would still be in her brain.  But if that's the case, how will the pieces all still be in her head when it's finally time (in WWS) to put them all together?  I just think this parts-to-whole thing is profoundly not how most people learn - I think we learn by hooking information to other information in our heads, by hooking it to context, and by both building up parts, and understanding a holistic context.  I just thing that WWS errs too much in its focus on parts without providing any whole, any scaffolding, to hang the parts on.

 

There are other things that help with that - I've found MCT's Paragraph Town and Essay Voyage helpful in the big-picture context-setting.  And clearly writing across the curriculum, actually using the parts on a regular basis, is going to be indispensable.  And I haven't found anything else I like better (or find useable) for teaching the parts, so I'm plugging along with WWS, but I have to say that it is not a stand-alone writing program for us.  Because we just can't wait 3 years to build up the pieces to understand what it's all for.

[mo2]

You all are so good at describing what I was feeling when I read the samples.  I didn't really think through it in my detail.  I just looked at it and thought, "Whoa.  This way too much for us right now."  And it could be something that I will revisit later or with my other kids.  It just isn't going to be a fit for my dd.  She needs detailed instruction, but not so detailed that it is overwhelming.  And she needs to understand why she is doing things. I'm not sure the parts-to-whole instruction is going to work for us.

 

[Penelope]

I do like it, but I understand what some of you are saying.

 

I thought that a WWS summary book was in the works after all, but maybe after the four levels are done, or at least that's what I remember reading. I think that will help with the whole.

 

I don't really see that the parts are being taught and then abandoned, but rather taught and then repeatedly practiced and integrated with other things. Looking at the lessons from level 2 after finishing 1, I am happy to see that continues.

 

But I get that the books can seem overwhelming to kids. One solution I've considered for this is to take the book apart and pull out the lessons in narration and outlining, at least for level 1, and maybe the outlining in level 2. I feel confident that I can ensure these get taught and done well in our content subjects. Then suddenly the book is smaller, and it is only "composition lessons." I haven't figured out if this will work for level 2 or if it will help, maybe not so much.

 

The thing is, I have looked at (and purchased, unfortunately) so many writing programs, and so many of them are so vague in their instructions. My son doesn't do well with vague, lol. He might complain about WWS now and then, but he does remember the forms (after completing level 1) and he is using them in other writing assignments. We are also more whole to parts here, so I have to provide the whole if it isn't there. For writing, I have had him read essays and magazine articles and pointed out places in books where the forms he has learned are there. And I have had to do the same for writing, grammar, math. Getting a taste of what it is they are working toward is kind of necessary here, and I think a lot of kids by fifth or sixth or seventh grade are going to do better if they get that.

[hollyhock]

 I had so hoped that SWB would put out a guide for WWS similar to the one for WWE (although I can see how that would be a logistical nightmare, because the program is so very detailed). Still, that is my holy grail for mid to upper level writing.

 

 

She did promise to write a WWS "guide" awhile back, although I'm sure it won't be for another few years. I sure hope it's still in her plans because I'm waiting for it. :D

[Mom0012]

I do like it, but I understand what some of you are saying.

 

I thought that a WWS summary book was in the works after all, but maybe after the four levels are done, or at least that's what I remember reading. I think that will help with the whole.

 

I don't really see that the parts are being taught and then abandoned, but rather taught and then repeatedly practiced and integrated with other things. Looking at the lessons from level 2 after finishing 1, I am happy to see that continues.

 

But I get that the books can seem overwhelming to kids. One solution I've considered for this is to take the book apart and pull out the lessons in narration and outlining, at least for level 1, and maybe the outlining in level 2. I feel confident that I can ensure these get taught and done well in our content subjects. Then suddenly the book is smaller, and it is only "composition lessons." I haven't figured out if this will work for level 2 or if it will help, maybe not so much.

 

The thing is, I have looked at (and purchased, unfortunately) so many writing programs, and so many of them are so vague in their instructions. My son doesn't do well with vague, lol. He might complain about WWS now and then, but he does remember the forms (after completing level 1) and he is using them in other writing assignments. We are also more whole to parts here, so I have to provide the whole if it isn't there. For writing, I have had him read essays and magazine articles and pointed out places in books where the forms he has learned are there. And I have had to do the same for writing, grammar, math. Getting a taste of what it is they are working toward is kind of necessary here, and I think a lot of kids by fifth or sixth or seventh grade are going to do better if they get that.

I have thought the same thing about separating out the outlining, narration and grammar (copia or to poi?) and keeping the other parts together. Then again, I've been reading TWTM suggestions for outlining and history writing for the logic stage and that seems so much simpler.

[TracyP]

I pulled this quote from another thread because I thought it fit well here. It has helped me make the decision. My daughter is a natural writer, but I am in the 80%. We are going to give it a try.

 

Alte Veste, it also addresses the WWS guide issue. If only it would come out sooner. That would be SOOO great!

 

WWS is a completely fleshed-out version of the writing recommended across the curriculum in TWTM.

I have always said that the *ideal* way to teach writing is to *not* have a writing curriculum, but rather to incorporate writing into the subject areas. So WWS is, in a way, an artificial method of teaching writing. What I've come to realize, over the past fifteen years of talking to home educators, is that only about 20% of parents really have the confidence and skill to follow the original TWTM recommendations as laid out. (Which I still think are ideal.) The rest just struggle, and struggle, and ultimately quit. (Listen, if you'd spent years listening to parents say, "Well, we're doing everything in TWTM except we're not really writing at all. That's OK, right?", you'd see the need for an option with some more hand-holding too.)

If you don't need the hand-holding, GO YOU. Sounds like the right decision. (Having said that, I do think that one area we didn't address in TWTM thoroughly enough was the whole research-and-documentation thing: What is plagiarism? How do you avoid it? How do you footnote? When? Why? THAT is thoroughly addressed in WWS1.)

If you do need the hand-holding, don't beat yourself up about it. You're in the 80%. Use WWS.

That's the parent part. Here's the kid part:

The more intuitive and natural your young writer is, the more they'll hate WWS. It is absolutely the wrong choice for a kid who loves writing. I call it my "Engineer's Guide to Writing." It was constructed with the non-intuitive, "I can't figure this out!" weeping writer in mind. *Those* were the kids who seemed to me to be totally unserved by existing writing programs.

HTH,

SWB

P.S. I will be doing a "WWS handbook," like the WWE core text, that outlines the basic requirements for each year but allows you to choose from your own materials. However, the scope & sequence is so complex that I need to finish the actual spelled-out levels first before putting the handbook together, so that's a couple of years down the road.

 

[Tracy]

Thank you TracyP for sharing that quote!  But I guess it means that I have to get out my WTM get to reading.   :svengo:

[Alte Veste Academy]

I pulled this quote from another thread because I thought it fit well here. It has helped me make the decision. My daughter is a natural writer, but I am in the 80%. We are going to give it a try.

 

Alte Veste, it also addresses the WWS guide issue. If only it would come out sooner. That would be SOOO great!

 

That was an extremely helpful quote! Thanks!

 

This part might be a nail in the WWS coffin for my kids: "The more intuitive and natural your young writer is, the more they'll hate WWS. It is absolutely the wrong choice for a kid who loves writing." I wouldn't necessarily say all three of mine are natural writers, although I have one who definitely is. But they do all enjoy writing. They enjoy learning and applying new things when we write for school, and they all write on their own outside of school. I can see how micro-focusing on details in the sort of engineering way she's described might be a turn off for them.

 

I guess we will be waiting about three years for the WWS guide. :nopity: :lol: Until then, I guess I will keep on keepin' on with my writing workshop philosophy.

[lewelma]

  I just think this parts-to-whole thing is profoundly not how most people learn - I think we learn by hooking information to other information in our heads, by hooking it to context, and by both building up parts, and understanding a holistic context.  I just thing that WWS errs too much in its focus on parts without providing any whole, any scaffolding, to hang the parts on.

 

 

I agree with the above.  And when we beta tested WWS2, all my recommendations were to include more of the above.

 

Overall, we loved WWS but only because I adapted it to our use. I made 3 main additions/changes:

 

1) We had a 30 minute to 1 hour discussion every week talking about the context, holistic context, scaffolding.  We found example paragraphs in national geographic and discussed how the little pieces build up to a whole. We would identify the different types of paragraphs and figure out how they added to the whole. We also outlined our own larger compositions using all the different types of paragraphs we were were learning to write.

 

2) We often did not use the provided topic/materials for the writing assignment.  He was either interested or not, and if not, we could easily find something else to write about.  However, all the examples to read were really really useful.

 

3) Finally, my son does NOT take notes they was SWB does, so we adapted the work to his style.

 

Personally, I thought that the programme was worth the effort I had to put in to make it work for us.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

 

[Penelope]

That was an extremely helpful quote! Thanks!

 

This part might be a nail in the WWS coffin for my kids: "The more intuitive and natural your young writer is, the more they'll hate WWS. It is absolutely the wrong choice for a kid who loves writing." I wouldn't necessarily say all three of mine are natural writers, although I have one who definitely is. But they do all enjoy writing. They enjoy learning and applying new things when we write for school, and they all write on their own outside of school. I can see how micro-focusing on details in the sort of engineering way she's described might be a turn off for them.

 

I guess we will be waiting about three years for the WWS guide. :nopity: :lol: Until then, I guess I will keep on keepin' on with my writing workshop philosophy.

Yeah, that might just depend. My one kid that is using WWS is not writing novels on his free time, but he does write outside of school, does enjoy writing, and has no problem coming up with his own ideas for writing when asked to.

 

I still think the program is good for him, and' also, ahem, at this point, I'm in the 80%. :D But I'm usually a pretty fast learner and I'm hoping by the time my others are ready, I'll "get it" and can be the teacher and won't need to rely on the books so heavily. So far that has even true for everything to do with Language Arts for my oldest. I start out having no idea what to do, so the first kid goes through the program, and then the rest benefit from me knowing what I am doing and how to tailor things more to them, and get a more organic experience.

[Chrysalis Academy]

That was an extremely helpful quote! Thanks!

 

This part might be a nail in the WWS coffin for my kids: "The more intuitive and natural your young writer is, the more they'll hate WWS. It is absolutely the wrong choice for a kid who loves writing." I wouldn't necessarily say all three of mine are natural writers, although I have one who definitely is. But they do all enjoy writing. They enjoy learning and applying new things when we write for school, and they all write on their own outside of school. I can see how micro-focusing on details in the sort of engineering way she's described might be a turn off for them.

 

I guess we will be waiting about three years for the WWS guide. :nopity: :lol: Until then, I guess I will keep on keepin' on with my writing workshop philosophy.

 

 

Yep, I'm with you.  It's funny, I swear I've read that whole thread like 5 times, and somehow I missed that quote.  That actually fits our situation to a T.  I think I'm making the right choice to use WWS but to adapt it liberally - kind of how Ruth described just above.

 

You gotta love serendipity.  After posting here earlier, I went out to my mailbox, and there was my copy of The Lively Art of Writing - and on the first page it says:

 

"You will write first the whole essay, in order to get a full sense of its structure.  But with each chapter you will move deeper and deeper into the essay, studying progressively smaller parts of it, writing as you go, making new discoveries about style as you write."

 

I think I just found my whole-to-parts resource!!   :lol:  :hurray:

[Alte Veste Academy]

Yeah, that might just depend. My one kid that is using WWS is not writing novels on his free time, but he does write outside of school, does enjoy writing, and has no problem coming up with his own ideas for writing when asked to.

I still think the program is good for him, and' also, ahem, at this point, I'm in the 80%. :D But I'm usually a pretty fast learner and I'm hoping by the time my others are ready, I'll "get it" and can be the teacher and won't need to rely on the books so heavily. So far that has even true for everything to do with Language Arts for my oldest. I start out having no idea what to do, so the first kid goes through the program, and then the rest benefit from me knowing what I am doing and how to tailor things more to them, and get a more organic experience.

I think this is a great plan. Unfortunately, my oldest is the one who needs the organic experience. I expend a great deal of energy making things look seamless and easy as pie. I feel like The Great and Powerful Oz sometimes (which is to say a sham, LOL).

 

Yep, I'm with you. It's funny, I swear I've read that whole thread like 5 times, and somehow I missed that quote. That actually fits our situation to a T. I think I'm making the right choice to use WWS but to adapt it liberally - kind of how Ruth described just above.

 

You gotta love serendipity. After posting here earlier, I went out to my mailbox, and there was my copy of The Lively Art of Writing - and on the first page it says:

 

"You will write first the whole essay, in order to get a full sense of its structure. But with each chapter you will move deeper and deeper into the essay, studying progressively smaller parts of it, writing as you go, making new discoveries about style as you write."

 

I think I just found my whole-to-parts resource!! :lol: :hurray:

Earlier, I considered starting a whole-to-parts LA thread. Will go to Amazon instead. :tongue_smilie: I already requested some writing across the curriculum books through ILL this afternoon, on top of already using IEW as a guide for this process. (I branch out from virtually everything I use, but not without a lovey in my crib to run back to when I get emotional. :lol:)

[Chrysalis Academy]

I think this is a great plan. Unfortunately, my oldest is the one who needs the organic experience. I expend a great deal of energy making things look seamless and easy as pie. I feel like The Great and Powerful Oz sometimes (which is to say a sham, LOL).

 

 

Earlier, I considered starting a whole-to-parts LA thread. Will go to Amazon instead. :tongue_smilie: I already requested some writing across the curriculum books through ILL already this afternoon, on top of already using IEW as a guide for this process. (I branch out from virtually everything I use, but not without a lovey in my crib to run back to when I get emotional. :lol:)

 

 

I'm kind of cracking up at the thought of WWS as the "lovey in my crib", but well said!  :laugh:

[Dana]

You gotta love serendipity. After posting here earlier, I went out to my mailbox, and there was my copy of The Lively Art of Writing - and on the first page it says:

 

Thanks for mentioning this. Checked it out on amazon and learned I'd bought it a couple years ago! I've found it and will be showing it to my son tomorrow. I think it'll help some!

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

We really like WWS so far even though my ds is a natural writer. I like the specifics in instruction. Perhaps my son does not mind it since he has had practice with essays and paragraphs so he already has an idea of the big picture. So I disagree with SWB about natural writers not liking WWS. They just might IMHO!

[Chrysalis Academy]

True, (and yay for your son!) but I think her point still holds - that this isn't the audience she wrote WWS for.  Maybe there are a lot of different curricula that could work with a natural writer, but not so many for the more analytical/engineering/reluctant writer types, and she's really targeted this curriculum to that audience.  I find that enlightening.

[crazyforlatin]

Rose, glad you mentioned The Lively Art of Writing. I bought it during Ruth's mega writing thread on the Logic Board early last year and then forgot about it. I think what I need now (like this month) is to read it myself - I feel like I'm floundering with writing (although DD is thoroughly enjoying W&R) and what I really need is a roadmap.

 

TracyP, thanks for taking the time to provide that quote - it really helps me understand the purpose of WWS. I want to use it and it's good to understand SWB's intended audience for the book.

[SilverMoon]

SilverMoon, you have fascinated me by mentioning that CW cores allow for writing across the curriculum. Really?! I looked at CW years ago and dismissed it (cannot even remember why), but I would love to hear more about how it works for linking writing with other subjects. I had so hoped that SWB would put out a guide for WWS similar to the one for WWE (although I can see how that would be a logistical nightmare, because the program is so very detailed). Still, that is my holy grail for mid to upper level writing.

I'm on vacation and just now had downtime to respond.

 

In CW at the 5th-6th level (Homer) you use one model a week. You can use the suggested models or pull your own from something you're reading in another subject. There is a chart in the back for tracking skill levels in the various analysis areas (word, sentence, paragraph, etc), and the core tells you roughly what size model for each level. You'll need well written models from fiction and non-fiction. The analysis and writing skills are easy to take to other subjects. When you cover author emphasis, use it on original sources in history. Strong and varied verbs can be used in any writing, and such..

[Chrysalis Academy]

I should mention that Lively Art of Writing is specifically focused on essay writing, and it doesn't cover any other type of writing.  WWS 1 doesn't teach essay writing - it's all about learning the parts which I assume at some point will get built up into an essay, but it's much more focused at this level on report writing/expository writing.  So they are different beasts.  I haven't had dd10 write any essays yet, we've been reading Essay Voyage, so she's getting an idea of the whole.  Lively Art of Writing follows that, I think, and really teaches one how an essay is done in a whole-to-parts way.  Then I think maybe A Rulebook for Arguments would be a nice follow up to that - once you know how to put together an essay, then you can really work on building strong arguments.

 

All this is theoretical, obviously! Just coming back to say that LAW is great, and whole-to-parts, and I'll definitely use it, but it doesn't replace WWS.  WWS teaches pre-essay skills.  I still don't have a good alternative for that.  :confused1:

[go_go_gadget]

According to my university professors I'm a respectably strong writer, but as with reading and spelling, I didn't receive explicit instruction in these areas and thus find it difficult to explain what I'm doing. I learned to write well by reading good writing, and I think that's an essential component of learning to write, but won't necessarily work for all students. I have ''Aha!'' moments all the time when reading the explanations for phonics, styling sentences, grammar, etc., because while I can use all of these constructs well, I don't have the tools to ''teach'' them beyond simple exposure. So while the nuts and bolts of WWS can be tedious, I feel like I need the hand-holding to be sure I'm covering everything, just in case the osmosis method (which we still use, of course) fails.

 

[hollyhock]

Lively Art of Writing follows that, I think, and really teaches one how an essay is done in a whole-to-parts way.  Then I think maybe A Rulebook for Arguments would be a nice follow up to that - once you know how to put together an essay, then you can really work on building strong arguments.

 

Thanks for mentioning this! This was my theoretical plan for future use and it's nice to see that others think it should work.

[Penguin]

Like some other posters mentioned above, I find WWS to be too incremental and I really, really wanted DS to write across the curriculum. 

 

It is just a little thing, but WWS1 does not teach standard MLA format and that really bugged me. 

 

We made it through most of the book last year, but I am going to do things differently this year.  I am going to use WWS as a guide for teaching expository writing and research papers.  I have already downloaded the opening lessons of WWS2 and I will definitely buy it.  But I think that I will use it as (1) a checklist for me to cover certain things and (2) a source of models for us to read through and discuss.

 

I had also become bothered by the fact that DS was not writing essays, and I also bought the Lively Art of Writing.  Yikes, could the print in that book be any smaller?!  Before buying, you should also know that the some of the topics that the author discusses seem dated.

 

Here is a link to a thread that has the workbook to go along with it.

 

 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Rose, glad you mentioned The Lively Art of Writing. I bought it during Ruth's mega writing thread on the Logic Board early last year and then forgot about it. I think what I need now (like this month) is to read it myself - I feel like I'm floundering with writing (although DD is thoroughly enjoying W&R) and what I really need is a roadmap.

 

TracyP, thanks for taking the time to provide that quote - it really helps me understand the purpose of WWS. I want to use it and it's good to understand SWB's intended audience for the book.

 

 

That's CAP's new Writing & Rhetoric program, right?  Remind me how old/what grade your dd is in?  I ordered this too with the idea of adding it in at some point for dd7, but I can imagine that there might be pieces dd10 would benefit from as well.

 

It makes me happy to read about how others are planning to adapt WWS to their purposes.  That's definitely what we are doing here, too, but you all have some great ideas.  Like, *reading and discussing* the models, but choosing our own subject for the writing assignment.  This is how we're using Essay Voyage, we're not actually doing any of the assignments, but we really enjoy reading and discussing the essays that are included.  It hadn't really occurred to me that WWS has the same thing - a lot of good models that could be read and discussed, and then the principles could be applied to our own writing assignments,  I was stuck feeling like we "should" be doing it as written, but taking breaks to do other writing - now I"m seeing that we can go ahead and use it as a guide, but not feel like we have to do all the assignments it includes, we can just pull out the principle and do it with a history or science topic.  Duh, but somehow this thread has helped me take the next step in that epiphany!

[Mrs Twain]

I am glad to read this thread, too. At first I crossed WWS off of my list because it is so wordy I couldn't imagine using it with my 5th grade son. But I decided to buy it anyway because I like the skills it teaches. My plan for this year is to do half of IEW SICC-B and the first half of WWS, attempting to tweak WWS to try to make it work for us as others mentioned. My son enjoys writing after completing a couple years of IEW and other paragraph writing programs. I am cautiously hoping we can find a way to do WWS that will help him continue progressing in writing without taking the joy out of it.

[crazyforlatin]

That's CAP's new Writing & Rhetoric program, right? Remind me how old/what grade your dd is in? I ordered this too with the idea of adding it in at some point for dd7, but I can imagine that there might be pieces dd10 would benefit from as well.

I just responded to your PM.

[Penguin]

When using WWS excerpts as models, keep in mind that many (most?) were written long ago.  I want DS to be able to read, comprehend, enjoy and write about older works, but I don't want my son to write like an 19th century writer.  I am planning to pull more contemporary pieces into the mix this year.

[mo2]

I think this is a great plan. Unfortunately, my oldest is the one who needs the organic experience. I expend a great deal of energy making things look seamless and easy as pie. I feel like The Great and Powerful Oz sometimes (which is to say a sham, LOL).

 

 

Earlier, I considered starting a whole-to-parts LA thread. Will go to Amazon instead. :tongue_smilie: I already requested some writing across the curriculum books through ILL this afternoon, on top of already using IEW as a guide for this process. (I branch out from virtually everything I use, but not without a lovey in my crib to run back to when I get emotional. :lol:)

 

What writing across the curriculum books have you got on your list to read? 

 

I just can't decide.  I've got Brave Writer which we are going to use this year.  But I would also like a writing curriculum that really teaches outlining and academic writing.   The three I keep vacillating between are WWS, CW, and now CAP's W&R.  Can someone just decide for me??

[AimeeM]

I don't dislike it, it just didn't work for my dyslexic daughter (none of SWB's writing programs did).

[Penelope]

When using WWS excerpts as models, keep in mind that many (most?) were written long ago. I want DS to be able to read, comprehend, enjoy and write about older works, but I don't want my son to write like an 19th century writer. I am planning to pull more contemporary pieces into the mix this year.

I think that's a good idea, but looking at the samples from level 2, I'm not sure that's as true for this year.

[TCB]

It is just a little thing, but WWS1 does not teach standard MLA format and that really bugged me.

Just a quick question about this. Are kids in 5th or 6th grade supposed to be learning MLA format? I thought that was more of a high school skill.

[coffeefreak]

Just a quick question about this. Are kids in 5th or 6th grade supposed to be learning MLA format? I thought that was more of a high school skill.

 

That's a debate for the ages.  I started looking for an MLA book for my 7th grader last year, and when I asked a friend that teaches high school English what she uses, she said they don't even teach it anymore.  She said there are several good sources on the internet that are free so they tell the kids to pick one of those and tell which source they used to write their paper.  I don't like that though.  After doing more research, I decided to start teaching from the MLA book in 9th grade.  In the meantime, we use Writer's Inc which teaches MLA in a gentle way.

 

To answer the original question, some programs just don't gel with certain kids.  I read the quote by SWB and laughed because that was my oldest when we tried it 4 or 5 years ago.  I then tried it with my youngest and realized she was bored stiff and dreaded doing it.  It's not that I don't like it or there is something wrong with it.  It just didn't engage my kids, which is important in elementary school.  My oldest loves creative writing which SWB does not recommend for elementary school (I don't remember the age she recommends you start that at and I'm too lazy to go looking for it :) ), so we were better off finding a program that encouraged creative writing but still taught the concepts she needed.  Writing Tales fit that bill.  My youngest has no interest in writing at all so I decided to follow Charlotte Mason's teachings and hold off until this year.  We've been working on grammar and mechanics and this year we'll use Rod and Staff's writing exercises and hopefully add in some Write With the Best exercises.  Since she just wants to get the assignment done and finds no pleasure in it, that's what we'll do.  She's at an age now where I can say to her, "You have to do it because it's what's required," and she will accept that.  She is in the logic stage where she knows there are just some things you gotta do.  

 

So, if you're interested, buy the book used and give it a try!  It's inexpensive and you don't need any workbooks.  If you don't care for it, sell it.  That's what the rest of us do. ;)

 

Blessings!

[Penguin]

I think that's a good idea, but looking at the samples from level 2, I'm not sure that's as true for this year.

 

This is good to know - I have only glanced at the samples.

 

As for the MLA format, WWS 1 has the student creates citations using a format similar to MLA.  This happens toward the end of the program.  I was baffled as to why the Instructor Manual explicitly told me that the students were going to be taught according to MLA style and then the citation format differed from MLA style.

 

There were at least two threads about this:  here and here.