So a friend and I were talking about this...

[SKL]

What factoid?

 

Your other post said that you don't shake hands at your house. That's what I was responding to.

 

Now I'm confused...

 

OK, after I replied I figured out that you thought "we don't shake hands" means "we won't shake hands."  What I meant was "we don't initiate, require, or expect hand shaking during a friendly meeting.  If you want to shake hands, of course we will oblige to make you feel comfortable."

[SKL]

Wait a second.  How did the young man arrive to pick up the girl?  In a car?  OMG do you know how many people are killed in and around cars every year?  Not to mention abductions, date rapes, and a whole list of other terrible things.  Did he actually think it was appropriate to show the girl's father that potential agent of death on the first date?  How was that not a threat to abduct, rape, and kill the man's daughter?  It wasn't even unloaded.

[BrookValley.]

Cleaning the gun doesn't mean it wasn't loaded. It *shouldn't* be loaded. Doesn't mean it wasn't. People make mistakes, sometimes very stupid ones. This kid wouldn't have known how vigilant the dad is when ensuring his gun isn't loaded.

 

No, I wouldn't panic or assume someone cleaning their gun in their own home was some sort of backwards redneck. I would assume some guy handling and/or cleaning his gun on his front porch for the purpose of intimidating a young man he doesn't know is an irresponsible idiot.

[SKL]

The more I think about it, I'm definitely going to require that my daughters' dates show up on bicycles.  No way I'm going to assume that a guy in possession of a car might actually know how to drive it safely, might have a valid drivers' license even, might even be a good guy.  No way.  It's a lot harder to date rape someone on the backseat of a bicycle.  :P

[SKL]

Oh sorry, I'm joking about violence.  My bad.

[BrookValley.]

Wait a second. How did the young man arrive to pick up the girl? In a car? OMG do you know how many people are killed in and around cars every year? Not to mention abductions, date rapes, and a whole list of other terrible things. Did he actually think it was appropriate to show the girl's father that potential agent of death on the first date? How was that not a threat to abduct, rape, and kill the man's daughter? It wasn't even unloaded.

I don't think owning a car implies the threat of bodily harm, nor do I think the act of owning a gun is an implied threat. The OP specified that the young man felt he was being sent a message by the man's actions, not that he happened to own a gun(s). If the kid joked about driving recklessly with this guy's daughter, then we'd have a comparison.

[Jennifer3141]

 

Nobody was ever shot and killed with an unloaded gun.  Which was obviously what the dad was holding, unless he is extremely stupid.  The fact that he was cleaning the gun makes it clear that the gun is not dangerous at that moment.

 

Now if he were waving it around or pointing it or the like, with no indication of whether it was loaded or not, we'd be having a different discussion altogether.

 

 

And yet again, statistics bear out that an awful lot of gun accidents happen from stupid people maintaining them. Now since we cannot outlaw stupidity, you bet your rifle I've taught my kids to run and scream for me when they see someone with a gun.

 

Because unless I know you, I don't know if you're an idiot. And I especially don't know if you're an idiot with a gun.

 

If a gun in the home made you safer, statistics would bear that out. But the truth of the matter is that a gun in the home actually makes you LESS safe and a HUGE part of that problem is because people are stupid and careless with them and treat them casually.

 

That's why if some nut is sitting on his deck waiting for my kid to pick up his kid and cleaning a gun, my kid knows to get the heck out of there ASAP.

 

A 13 year old girl in Texas died last month when her brother cleaned his gun. Whoops! :(

 

Since intelligence tests and gun licenses are not dispensed together, that's not a risk I'll take with MY kids.

 

And lastly, even if this guy IS a great guy who treats weapons respectfully; he should still understand that guns make many, many people nervous or upset. I have "adult aids" in my home. I don't greet you at the door waving them around. I understand that by doing so I might make some of you laugh, arouse a couple of you, and horrify others. Because I am respectful of other people's beliefs, I don't do that.

 

A good gun owner understands the feelings of others and respects them. They are weapons. You cannot pretend otherwise. I cannot make a milkshake with a gun. I cannot paint my living room walls. I cannot change my TV channels with a gun. A gun is a WEAPON. It's a very good weapon but it IS a weapon. No one in the history of the world ever bought a handgun and thought, "Hey! This will make a lovely umbrella!"

 

So yes, you can kill a person with a car or a rock or even an umbrella if you are so inclined. But that doesn't change the fact that cars were not designed as weapons. Rocks weren't invented to kill people. And an umbrella would be a rather odd instrument of death.

 

But whoever invented the first gun did not think, "Hey! I'm going to fix Cousin Amos' broken leg with this!" Nope. Not the gun's intention.

 

As gun owners, we own that in my household. And that's the biggest reason why we treat them with all the seriousness an instrument of death requires. I have knives in my house. Rocks. Cars in the garage. But nothing kills with the same speed or accuracy or ease as my gun. Nothing else in my home was DESIGNED to do just that.

 

If they weren't designed to kill, a little flag would pop out the barrel with the word, "Bang!" on it.

[SKL]

Well you only have the boy's impression to go by as far as whether a threat was intended.  Many are the times when a parent gets the impression a teen boy has less-than-wholesome intentions toward his date.

 

It's decided.  Bicycles or foot traffic for my girls' dates, until they are 35!

[Caroline]

Well you only have the boy's impression to go by as far as whether a threat was intended. Many are the times when a parent gets the impression a teen boy has less-than-wholesome intentions toward his date.

 

It's decided. Bicycles or foot traffic for my girls' dates, until they are 35!

But it's perfectly ok for the boys to carry guns because, afterall, guns don't imply any threat. Guns are just tools to make jokes with.

[SKL]

Jennifer, all those are very good reasons for not allowing other people to drive cars anywhere near my house.  And I will no longer go visiting at other homes if there appears to be a car around.  Just too dangerous.

 

You must know that cars kill much more efficently as well as more often than guns.

 

As for the original purpose of the first gun, I must say I do not know for sure.  Pretty much every technological invention started out as an implement of war, and got modified for civilian use.  But the reason my dad has shotguns is so he can shoot targets and hunt critters.  No gun in his house was ever purchased with the thought of aiming it at a human being.  And I'm sure that's pretty typical of traditional gun owners.  It may not be true in some places.

 

As for respecting others' feelings, keep in mind that this guy is coming to the dad's house so he can take the dad's daughter out.  If he has serious, positive intentions in doing so, then he needs to be open to who this dad is, how this family's culture is.  Now's a good time to find out if there's something about this family the young man would not want to deal with.  If he's offended by guns, what better time for him to learn this dad has guns?

 

I must say this is an education for me.  I did not know that in the world of teenage dating, the girl's parents are supposed to jump through all kinds of hoops to avoid offending the boy.  I always thought it was the other way around.  Stupid me.

[SKL]

But it's perfectly ok for the boys to carry guns because, afterall, guns don't imply any threat. Guns are just tools to make jokes with.

 

I do not have a problem with a teen carrying a legally obtained gun in a legal and safe manner.  With or without my daughter around.

[ktgrok]

Nobody was ever shot and killed with an unloaded gun.  Which was obviously what the dad was holding, unless he is extremely stupid.  The fact that he was cleaning the gun makes it clear that the gun is not dangerous at that moment.

 

Now if he were waving it around or pointing it or the like, with no indication of whether it was loaded or not, we'd be having a different discussion altogether.

More to the point, in my experience, the gun is taken apart. It is in PIECES while you are cleaning it. Barrel NOT ATTACHED to the rest of the gun. Now, that isn't true of rifles I guess, now that I think about it....but others seemed to indicate that a hand gun was more intimidating. And a hand gun would be in various pieces. Not something you could shoot someone with. I can't remember if the rifles are totally disabled when being cleaned...I know we store them in pieces..with the idea that you not only would have to disable the lock, and get the ammo out of the safe, but you would have to know how to put it back together to use it.

[Jennifer3141]

 

I must say this is an education for me.  I did not know that in the world of teenage dating, the girl's parents are supposed to jump through all kinds of hoops to avoid offending the boy.  I always thought it was the other way around.  Stupid me.

 

 

I get so tired of the NRA argument that cars kill people too. It's pedantic. And we could spend the rest of the day listing everything within reach which I could theoretically kill you with (waves to stapler) but that's a juvenile argument.

 

I could also theoretically kill you by forcing you to down my entire bottle of folic acid (at gunpoint however). But the obvious breakdown in that car argument is that we REQUIRE far more training to own a car than we do a gun. In MI, every time I buy a new handgun I have to pass a 10 question T/F test. Studying for it was never suggested or needed. All I needed to know to buy my first gun I learned from "Law and Order." To buy a rifle, I just need the money. No test even.

 

I studied my fanny off to get my driver's license and we had more than one kid flunk the driver's ed class the first time through. We had a blonde in my carry class that couldn't pass the test but you can bet the instructor stayed until she could because he didn't want to lose a customer.

 

And yes, I took the carry class and passed it but no, I don't carry. Have the permit. Dislike the ethics. And dislike the law.

 

But if you think putting away a weapon that kills people with one finger is, "jumping through hoops" then we've got nowhere to talk. Because honestly, I don't want to see inside the rest of your house anyway. I'm guessing wiping down the toilet sure as heck isn't an option at your place either. Yikes. All you've done is confirm that DH and I are correct about guns in other people's homes.

 

Yes, there are people who are too stupid to own guns. The parents of every mass murdering teenager come to mind. The 18 year old boy in Texas who murdered his sister last month. And on and on and on.

[Danestress]

As for respecting others' feelings, keep in mind that this guy is coming to the dad's house so he can take the dad's daughter out. If he has serious, positive intentions in doing so, then he needs to be open to who this dad is, how this family's culture is. Now's a good time to find out if there's something about this family the young man would not want to deal with. If he's offended by guns, what better time for him to learn this dad has guns?

.

I agree. I know very few people who are offended by someone owning a gun. But a number of people are offended by the implied message that this little drama sends. So all the boy really needs to do is talk to the Dad and ASK what the 'cleaning the gun charade' is all about.

 

And he needs to talk to the girl too. I think a wise girl is wary of a beau with a domineering mother. And while I am not scared of responsible gun ownership, I would caution my son about a Dad who is really conflicted about his daughter dating and stages little shows out of discomfort. The boy will learn if that is the situation by talking to the girl and her parents.

[Berta]

I seriously doubt any of the certificates were for PEOPLE shooting events. 

 

Or were they? I've been out of that country for a long time.  So, maybe that's sport, too, now?

Well, according to Diane Feinstein it is legal to hunt humans :)

 

http://gunssavelives.net/blog/gun-laws/video-dianne-feinstein-its-legal-to-hunt-people-with-hi-cap-magazines-what/

 

I always have a firearm in my holster so any boy coming to our house would most likely see it. They also would probably already know that my daughter herself shoots. We go to the range every week for "ladies day" and there are targets hanging in our back entrance hallway. She is only 17 so she is not old enough to own/carry, but I know the day she is old enough and gets her permit to carry, she will.

 

[Reflections]

Let's be real.

 

This has nothing to do with "casting aspersions" onto gun owners as a group. It's about an adult who feels as though it is appropriate to intimidate his daughter's date. This particular situation involved a gun as a prop, but it could have just as easily been some other veiled physical threat, and I suspect that many people's reaction here would be the same.

 

My mother threatened many a date with a pickle jar..... 

 

I stopped having my dates pick me up from home.

[KungFuPanda]

It's a common redneck fantasy. I don't know anyone who has played it out, but enough people joke about it that it's a stereotypical way to send a 'mind your manners' message to the boy. This alone would indicate to me that the father is a simple man, but not necessarily a dangerous one.

 

Calling the cops would be a silly overreaction because its not illegal.

[Parrothead]

Jennifer, all those are very good reasons for not allowing other people to drive cars anywhere near my house. And I will no longer go visiting at other homes if there appears to be a car around. Just too dangerous.

 

You must know that cars kill much more efficently as well as more often than guns.

 

As for the original purpose of the first gun, I must say I do not know for sure. Pretty much every technological invention started out as an implement of war, and got modified for civilian use. But the reason my dad has shotguns is so he can shoot targets and hunt critters. No gun in his house was ever purchased with the thought of aiming it at a human being. And I'm sure that's pretty typical of traditional gun owners. It may not be true in some places.

 

As for respecting others' feelings, keep in mind that this guy is coming to the dad's house so he can take the dad's daughter out. If he has serious, positive intentions in doing so, then he needs to be open to who this dad is, how this family's culture is. Now's a good time to find out if there's something about this family the young man would not want to deal with. If he's offended by guns, what better time for him to learn this dad has guns?

 

I must say this is an education for me. I did not know that in the world of teenage dating, the girl's parents are supposed to jump through all kinds of hoops to avoid offending the boy. I always thought it was the other way around. Stupid me.

Actually, I must argue the efficiency of using a car to kill. A car is a very inefficient way to kill someone. It is messy and not altogether a sure thing. A double-tap to the back of the head is much more a sure thing.

[ThisIsTheDay]

 

 

 

Of course that's different. To the best of my knowledge, 32,000 people will not be dead this year from CERTIFICATES.

 

I realize this number is used to shock people, but I wanted to point out for those who wondered that out of those 32,000 dead, 60% were suicides.  35% were homicides (about 11,000).

 

Since the discussion here is about shooting others, I thought this number should be represented accurately.

[LizzyBee]

You're right. It's a lot easier to just suspect every 16-17 year old kid is going to rape your daughter. There's no way to really know.

 

Based on rape statistics for women under 25, it's hard not to suspect that every guy that dates my daughter is a potential rapist. Here are some statistics from Roger Williams University website, but the stats are actually lower than some I've seen in the past.

 

Here are some data collected from a national study of college students:

• One in four college women have either been raped or suffered attempted rape.
• 84 percent of the women who are raped knew their assailants.
• 57 percent of the rapes occurred on a date.
• Women, ages 16-24, have four times higher risk of being raped than any other population group.
• One in 12 male students surveyed had committed acts that met the legal definition of rape.
• 16 percent of male students who had committed rape took part in episodes with more than one attacker's gang rape.
• 75 percent of male students and 55 percent of female students involved in date rape had been drunk or using drugs.*
• 33 percent of males surveyed said that they would commit rape if they could escape detection.**
• 25 percent of men surveyed believed that rape was acceptable if the woman asks the man out,  the man pays for the date or the woman goes back to the man's room after the date. ***

ETA: My dh has joked about cleaning his shotgun when my dd's dates pick her up, but he's never done it.  And honestly, I'd be a little upset with him if he did, unless he'd actually been out hunting that day.

[beaners]

Well, that shows my perspective.  I've never been assaulted or molested in any way, so my first impression when a father has a "heart to heart" with a guy is that he wants him to drive safely and stuff. I dated a lot of guys in high school, none of whom my father had a talk with laying out expectations.  I picked up on the other potential reason for the intimidation, but typical teenager carelessness or showing off was more of a threat with the guys I knew.

[kwickimom]

I still CANNOT believe that cleaning a gun is SO VERY threatening. Did the guy point the gun at the kid? Actually threaten to shoot him?? NO. All he did was clean his gun on his porch. I would be embarrassed to call the police and report a guy who seemed threatening because he was cleaning his gun. Lets pass a law- NO gun cleaning while daughters boyfriends visit the house to overcome this issue. sheesh 

[SKL]

I read Miss Manners from cover to cover.  Nowhere does she say you are not allowed to clean your gun in front of your daughter's boyfriend.  :P

[SKL]

My mother threatened many a date with a pickle jar..... 

 

I stopped having my dates pick me up from home.

 

I would have liked to see that.  :P

[SKL]

 

 

 

I get so tired of the NRA argument that cars kill people too. It's pedantic. And we could spend the rest of the day listing everything within reach which I could theoretically kill you with (waves to stapler) but that's a juvenile argument.

 

I could also theoretically kill you by forcing you to down my entire bottle of folic acid (at gunpoint however). But the obvious breakdown in that car argument is that we REQUIRE far more training to own a car than we do a gun. In MI, every time I buy a new handgun I have to pass a 10 question T/F test. Studying for it was never suggested or needed. All I needed to know to buy my first gun I learned from "Law and Order." To buy a rifle, I just need the money. No test even.

 

I studied my fanny off to get my driver's license and we had more than one kid flunk the driver's ed class the first time through. We had a blonde in my carry class that couldn't pass the test but you can bet the instructor stayed until she could because he didn't want to lose a customer.

 

And yes, I took the carry class and passed it but no, I don't carry. Have the permit. Dislike the ethics. And dislike the law.

 

But if you think putting away a weapon that kills people with one finger is, "jumping through hoops" then we've got nowhere to talk. Because honestly, I don't want to see inside the rest of your house anyway. I'm guessing wiping down the toilet sure as heck isn't an option at your place either. Yikes. All you've done is confirm that DH and I are correct about guns in other people's homes.

 

Yes, there are people who are too stupid to own guns. The parents of every mass murdering teenager come to mind. The 18 year old boy in Texas who murdered his sister last month. And on and on and on.

 

Yes, there are people who are too stupid to have guns.  Is that really what the OP was about?  I thought we were talking about the implication of a possibly symbolic action, not whether the whole neighborhood is endangered every time someone cleans a gun.

 

Based on your comments, I get the impression you would be happier if nobody was allowed to own a gun in the first place, let alone clean it on his porch with or without company over.  I definitely think this position is coloring a lot of people's reaction to the OP scenario.

[SKL]

Yeah, I guess you would have been horrified by the home I grew up in, where my dad's favorite shotgun (which he built by hand) always hung on the wall over the fireplace.

 

He doesn't do that any more because of the risk of a break-in causing his guns to fall into the wrong hands.  He converted his gun cabinet into a showcase for his teapots.  It's a shame, though, to have to hide a lifelong hobby just because of the way other people's minds work.

[SKL]

Oh and PS, we do clean our toilets periodically.  You know, just in case we get a visit from the Queen . . . .

[Reflections]

I would have liked to see that.  :p

 

She even left a little gherkin in it to slosh around for effect.

 

 

 

Sure, NOW, it's a hoot - crazy - but funny.  Then, well, I'd have to say I was mortified. And, I'd also have to say, I didn't like her saying that the guy I was going on a date with might well be deserving of being intimidated.  I think, in looking back, she was motivated by fear. 

[SKL]

I think, in looking back, she was motivated by fear. 

 

Of course.  Maybe she had a guy attack her on a date, or knew other women who did.  I think it's an understandable fear.

 

Still want to see that flying pickle jar.

[QueenCat]

I have no problem with people owning guns...... we do. But to intentionally clean, in an odd place to clean a gun (the front porch), with the intention of the date seeing that daddy is watching him, is just not right. A friend's husband did this to his daughter's date, and the daughter took months to forgive dad. She was so embarrassed. The daughter refused to let the boy come to the house when dad was there, for a very long time. Mom actually encouraged this as she was pretty peeved at her dh too.

[kwickimom]

I have no problem with people owning guns...... we do. But to intentionally clean, in an odd place to clean a gun (the front porch), with the intention of the date seeing that daddy is watching him, is just not right. A friend's husband did this to his daughter's date, and the daughter took months to forgive dad. She was so embarrassed. The daughter refused to let the boy come to the house when dad was there, for a very long time. Mom actually encouraged this as she was pretty peeved at her dh too.

 

 

The front porch is not really an odd place to clean a gun. We always clean our guns outside. Once, we were cleaning guns when the UPS man came by. I am SO glad he didn't call the cops on us.  :rolleyes:

[QueenCat]

The front porch is not really an odd place to clean a gun. We always clean our guns outside. Once, we were cleaning guns when the UPS man came by. I am SO glad he didn't call the cops on us.  :rolleyes:

 

I've never seen anyone do it outside but to each his own, as long as you aren't impacting others. Dh says he'd never do it outside as it'd be harder to keep the wind from carrying bits of dust, etc into the environment he's trying to clean.

[Corraleno]

I don't really get the logic here:

 

(1) It's perfectly normal, even prudent, to assume that every teenage boy is a potential rapist and therefore deserving of a "symbolic" warning with a gun.

(2) It's ridiculous, absurd, ignorant, and irrationally fearful to assume that a man who is purposely cleaning his gun when his daughter's date arrives, as a veiled warning, might be anything other than a perfectly reasonable, rational, responsible gun owner who would never ever clean a loaded gun, let alone shoot somebody.

 

I also don't get this logic:

 

It's not really a "threat," it's just a joke and a bluff — but it sure will make that boy think twice about hurting Daddy's little girl. Either the dad's just a macho blowhard who would never follow through on this "symbolic" threat, in which case it has zero value as a deterrent, or the boy is left wondering if there's the tiniest possibility that he's crazy enough to act on it, in which case he should walk back to his car and drive home. 

 

I find it amusing that those who are defending this guy are trying to portray those who disagree with it as wimps who are terrified of guns — despite the fact that many GUN OWNERS, including those with law enforcement experience, have also posted that they think what the guy did was irresponsible and not OK.

 

Jackie

[Jennifer3141]

 

Yes, there are people who are too stupid to have guns.  Is that really what the OP was about?  I thought we were talking about the implication of a possibly symbolic action, not whether the whole neighborhood is endangered every time someone cleans a gun.

 

Based on your comments, I get the impression you would be happier if nobody was allowed to own a gun in the first place, let alone clean it on his porch with or without company over.  I definitely think this position is coloring a lot of people's reaction to the OP scenario.

 

 

Oh yes, CLEARLY I would be happier if no one owned guns since I AM A GUN OWNER. You got me. <insert eyeroll here>

 

And your father's gun over his door? Uh, I keep mine propped up against the door in my closet. I need to be quick when a fox or raccoon come for my lady ducks. So, wrong yet again. You've got a pattern going on here.

 

And again, hanging the gun on the wall is VERY different from sitting on the front step handling it when someone arrives, especially if the intent of said cleaning is actually intimidation.

 

You can keep pretending two verbs (hanging and cleaning) are the same but that does not make it so.

[SKL]

Like I said, some people obviously do not get it.  You have a picture in your mind and that's about as good as it's going to get.  That's fine, but I wish people would remember that just because someone's culture is different from yours doesn't mean he's a creep.

[Guest]

Well....lets just say I have a feeling any boy picking up my daughter may very well find out how that feels. My DH has already said he plans to have his guns out, cleaning them, when dates some over.

 

If I were the guy I'd find it funny, but also cautionary :)

My Dad always said he would do this when I was little. he never did. I would think it was funny.