Kept up at night by math curriculum decision!!

[luthernose]

I know this is a difficult topic with many opinions.

 

We are going into our second year of HSing and I just don't have a tried and true math curriculum. My son did Saxon k-2 math when he was at a private school. Last year we started HSing with Saxon 3, switched to math u see briefly (because Saxon seemed so boring and repetitive to me), then went back to Saxon when math u see didn't seem to cover nearly as much as Saxon, then my son declared he hated Saxon so we finally switched to SM. SM has been difficult but we finally have him in the right level according to his placement test. But, he is still struggling to remember what we learned. He forgets very quickly and gets frustrated super easily (so do I, unfortunately). He's 9 years old and doing fourth grade level work. His Iowa basics composite was an 87, but math was quite low, around the 30% range. He wants to do Singapore again this next year, but I think he needs smaller steps with more repetition. SM seems to go really fast and I don't care for the teacher manual. I could use some help teaching whatever math we choose. I understand the material fine, but find it difficult to explain in a way he will understand.

 

I'm debating on getting Saxon 5/4 with the Saxon teaching CDs. I have researched this for probably 50+ hours and can't come to a conclusion. I want to begin preparing for fall. I would love opinions on this. :)

[Ruby Rose]

I think Math Mammoth is like Singapore. Step by step with lots of practice.

[kolamum]

We left Saxon for MUS but we did not step away.

 

Something to consider is that Saxon is spiral while MUS is mastery. So, at first, you may feel like your child is not covering much in MUS, but truthfully they are covering things below, on, & above grade level in just one mathematical operation/theory.

 

Saxon wasn't a bad fit for our child, he enjoyed it, but when math was eating up THAT much time per day for a child who was GOOD at math & KNEW what he was doing I dunno.. I felt the need to find something that he could still learn with, but wouldn't eat up his entire day. 

MUS is harder to slip into, imho, when you've use to a programme like Saxon or TT. The reason being that you're use to seeing your child learn a lot of concepts in a year, where as with MUS you focus on one major concept for the year, or the duration of a book. My student, for instance, flew through the majority of his first book until he met a point where he left off last year. Then we slowed down to a more reasonable speed. 

 

 

I think when it comes to math curriculum you need to consider a few things:

 

1. How does your child learn best {spiral or mastery}?

2. How much do you want to be involved in the teaching of math?

 

Some programmes, like Saxon & Right Start are pretty teacher intensive. Where as programmes like MUS & TT are not. :)

[homeschoolkitty]

Saxon was OK for my siblings in k-2nd but after that specially middle school was terrible. both of them hate Math because of it.

[coralloyd]

I agree with kolamum. I think you might of answered your own questions. You said,"But, he is still struggling to remember what we learned. He forgets very quickly and gets frustrated super easily", and " I think he needs smaller steps with more repetition". The reason you quit MUS is because it "didn't seem to cover nearly as much as Saxon". MUS is smaller steps and more repetition. It will cement the concepts in his head and he will forget a lot less. He will not be behind. It covers just as much. It is just more focused.

[warneral]

I agree about math mammoth. It goes slow with lots of practice and tiny incremental leaps. It also gives you a typical scope and sequence so that you cover what 4th grade typically covers. It is also nice because you don't juggle books like Singapore. It really teaches to the student and I help when needed

[warneral]

By the way, I think Singapore would work if you added complex word problems and extra practice... Did you use either of those books? Again, I like math mammoth because it is strong in mental and conceptual math, but gives enough practice all in one book

[kbutton]

As PP asked, are you using the Extra Practice or Intensive Practice books with SM? Or the WB? There are many options for additional practice, and I've noticed the workbooks are easier than the TB (smaller steps). I have heard Kitchen Table math recommended many times for explaining things to kids, but I personally don't have the books. Your library may have some good books for explaining concepts. There are also videos online for teaching math, like Education Unboxed.

 

We used SM 3a/3b last year after my son had a very incremental and repetitive program at his former school. It takes some getting used to with the various books.

[8filltheheart]

I would recommend doing a combo of Horizons math along with the SM.   Horizons will provide constant review.   MM, MUS, and SM are all mastery programs.   Horizons is spiral so it constantly reviews concepts while introducing new ones.      FWIW, I have been combining Horizons with MiF with my dd for several yrs now and it is incredibly easy to combine the 2 programs.   I simply mark out the problems in each text that she does not need to do b/c she doesn't require the review.  (they do not match up perfectly in sequence, so sometimes things in MiF are review from the coverage in Horizons.  Horizons always has review, so she might only do half of the problems b/c she will also be doing the problems in MiF's lesson and I don't want math to take twice as much time.)

 

From what it sounds like, he would do better with spiral over mastery.   Saxon, though, is incremental, not spiral, and makes kids that don't need such small steps go crazy.

 

HTH

[blondeviolin]

I'd look at MEP too.   But if I had to guess, I'd guess Math Mammoth would work nicely for you.  OR, you could do Singapore and add in your own review or spiral with Math Mammoth topical workbooks.

[Kathie in VA]

Okay, he said he wants to do SM again.  Why?  You need to find out what it is about SM that he liked and what wasn't working with Saxon.  They teach very differently as others have posted.  

 

You said, "He wants to do Singapore again this next year, but I think he needs smaller steps with more repetition."  Well, you can easily do this by doing SM lessons with the text and the Home Instructors Guide (HIG) [if you want it, some don't use it], then assign the workbook and assign work from the Extra Practice books.  {There are also Intensive Practice workbooks for more challenge and the Challenging Word Problems (CWP) books that many like to use on occation.}  This will slow the pace of the new lessons and give the extra practice that you are looking for.

 

Also keep in mind that the SM "teacher manual" is not the same as the "Home Instructor's Guide".  If you are using their 'Teacher Manual' then you might want to look into the HIG.

 

Another option mentioned was Math Mammouth.  This will teach similary to the way SM teaches but include more practice within the main program.  Keep in mind that the presentation is not as colorful, from what I've heard.. for some kids this is an issue.

 

I haven't seen MUS but it's not a bad choice here either.... you just need to remember that it's scope and sequence may be different ... but the depth is there.

 

[Hunter]

Math is so hard to choose. Mostly just :grouphug:

 

I've learned a lot about teaching math over the decades from switching curricula over and over, and am starting to know what works for me, when in particular environments, with particular types of students. I wish there was a one sized fits all curriculum that worked for everyone all the time, but I don't think there is.

 

One thing I have learned though is that the teacher needs to pick a curriculum that is within their skill level to teach.

 

And that struggling students seem to do better with a narrower curriculum that doesn't cover non essential topics.

 

And that a lot of time is saved by waiting for a student to be developmentally mature enough to tackle a topic, even if it means waiting longer than the current trends suggest.

[luthernose]

Thank you for all the helpful replies. We have not tried the extra or intensive practice workbooks (or the challenging word problems). I was thinking of ordering those for this next year if we do SM. I do have the HIG and I find it difficult to use. I probably need to spend 10-15 min the day before looking over the concept for the next day. I don't like how they insist on presenting concepts in several different ways, seems confusing and overkill. Maybe it's because I was rushing through things because we started SM later last year and we were always trying to "catch up". Both my kids said they felt math was rushed. :thumbdown: That answers part of the frustration my son probably feels. 

 

I looked at Math Mammoth and printed out some sample pages. It doesn't look like there is any instruction on how to teach the concepts effectively. Is there really enough there? My son immediately dug in his heels when I had him look at it (probably because it doesn't look as "fun" as SM), but after trying out a little of it, he said he could do it. Am I right that it does NOT include a TG, or text, just basically a workbook? Sounds like most people think MM has more practice and presents the info in smaller steps than SM. Is that accurate? 

 

I'm also intrigued by Saxon's teaching CDs. Has anyone used Saxon 5/4 with the teaching CDs? My son loves the idea of doing his work on the computer, but I wonder if the novelty will wear off on that quickly. We may send him back to the private school he was at in the next year or two (maybe) and they use Saxon, so I wonder if using Saxon makes the most sense in that regard. 

 

It's such a hard choice (as my 4-year-old dd always says)!!  :lol:

[Hunter]

I never used any technology with Saxon, just READ the books aloud to my boys. We had CDs and stopped using them. We felt the instruction in them was inferior to the readings in the text, and did not have time for both.

 

Saxon is an excellent long-term option for some families. It get the job done, for butt-in-chair students.

 

There is no curriculum that will work for all students, all the time, with all teachers, but Saxon does work a LOT of the time and is a good default place to start, for families that feel overwhelmed with all the choices.

[NittanyJen]

Hmmm.  I think you did just answer your own question.  You said you rushed through Singapore, then mentioned that your son was having trouble retaining information and that the program seemed to be too quick.  I think, with respect, that this is a Mom problem, not a kid problem, with Singapore.

 

Remember, the Singapore presentation is concrete-pictorial-abstract; it is that way because it works, and it works very well (I come at this from the perspective of the parent of a pair of highly gifted kids-- my 9YO will be starting the upper level Singapore series this summer, and has already been doing some algebra on his own.  He has been through Singapore levels 2--5, and they have been very effective).  At the minimum, I hope you are using the text and the workbooks for each level; for an advanced kid, the intensive practice books are a good idea.  The other books are good for kids who really need the additional practice, but before you decide that, *slow down* and make sure you are really presenting the information correctly and not racing through-- if your son is not retaining the information, you are moving too quickly.

 

Here is a suggested presentation:  

*Introduce the material using the concrete, hands-on lessons.

 

*Segue into working on paper or the white board or whatever works for you and get out the textbook, going through the examples and problems in the text together.

 

*Do the related workbook problems either later in the day or the next day, as independent work.  This gives the information time to gel before he tries to tackle it on his own, and will provide a better metric of whether or not he really digested it or just did the nod and "Yes I get it" because the presentation of the material in Singapore is so logical and appears so easy-- at first.

 

*Assign any practices and reviews as independent work, helping him with any problems he is stuck on as needed.  These are not tests.  Make sure your assistance is helping him to store the information in memory though, and isn't just doing the assignment for him.  Let him use the manipulatives if needed.  I like to only assign some of the workbook exercises, so that if the reviews show any gaps, he can go back and do the workbook pages again on his own another day.  If you're using the IP book, you can do this step with the IP book instead-- assign the IP book a week or two behind the main lessons.  Neurologically, we need to see material a few times before we build permanent connections.

 

*Don't move on until he has achieved the lesson goal.  Do remember that Singapore will repeat the lesson again in the next year (though going into more detail).  If it isn't *perfect* that's probably okay.  I used to freak out about that in the younger levels, then I realized that with the repetition, he got better.  I had to set realistic goals for his accomplishment, that were age-appropriate.  Perfect mastery each exposure was not appropriate, even for a highly gifted kid.  However, by the time he finished level 5B, he had the information nailed down.  So understand the lesson goals, what they are, and what they aren't.  Number bonds early on are pretty important.  Understanding the relationships between the numerator and denominator is important.  Understanding the number line is important.  Perfect recall of area and volumetric formulae in the third level book is not essential; it will be repeated.  Perfection of all fraction operations in the 3rd level book is not essential; it will be repeated.  Measurement will be practiced continuously throughout the books (at least, in the US Edition) in all the word problems after being introduced, and reviewed in each level, and you can reinforce by having him cook with you.

 

*Go at your son's pace.  Remember those test scores?  Remember that a grade equivalency does not mean your son is working at that grade level.  Slow down.  If he likes Singapore, give it another shot; it's an excellent program.

 

**A note about Math Mammoth: Yes, all the information needed for instruction is right on those pages.  The pages are written directly to the student, and presented in a very logical, incremental fashion.  MM is another excellent program.

 

Good luck to you!  It can be a shaky feeling to try to find a good match-up for both you and your kiddo!  It doesn't help when everyone has an opinion, but in the end yours is the one that counts :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gratitude]

My best advice for math is stay with one program since they all have different scope & sequences and they all build on themselves.

 

It honestly sounds like MUS would be an excellent fit for your situation. Steve covers everything by the end of Zeta and teaches both of you with the DVD. It is a 'do what you need self paced program'. So if he needs more practice you do 7 worksheets for one concept. If it is easy and he is getting 100 percent you do the first sheet and skip the next two. The new updated version has application pages as well.

 

If you are even 50 percent sure you are sending him back to the private school I would definitely go with Saxon and stay at grade level for a solid transition back.

 

I love teaching Singapore, but I loved math in school & college. I don't use the HIG. We have to test starting at age 8 for Sept. My oldest is the only one tested so far and received 96th the first year & 99th the second. So Singapore has worked for us, but he also gets math. I supplement with MUS when we need a math break doing two sheets and one test for each week unit. The work though is there in MUS for a full program; but I use it as a review break. For new concept teaching there are plenty of small steps and review built in. I like how Steve teaches place value.

 

I think you first decision is:

 

Is this for 5 - 7 plus years and we are planning to homeschool and MUS would work over time OR

 

We need to stay with Sacon since he is going back to private in a year.

[luthernose]

Hmmm. I think you did just answer your own question. You said you rushed through Singapore, then mentioned that your son was having trouble retaining information and that the program seemed to be too quick. I think, with respect, that this is a Mom problem, not a kid problem, with Singapore.

 

Remember, the Singapore presentation is concrete-pictorial-abstract; it is that way because it works, and it works very well (I come at this from the perspective of the parent of a pair of highly gifted kids-- my 9YO will be starting the upper level Singapore series this summer, and has already been doing some algebra on his own. He has been through Singapore levels 2--5, and they have been very effective). At the minimum, I hope you are using the text and the workbooks for each level; for an advanced kid, the intensive practice books are a good idea. The other books are good for kids who really need the additional practice, but before you decide that, *slow down* and make sure you are really presenting the information correctly and not racing through-- if your son is not retaining the information, you are moving too quickly.

 

Here is a suggested presentation:

*Introduce the material using the concrete, hands-on lessons.

 

*Segue into working on paper or the white board or whatever works for you and get out the textbook, going through the examples and problems in the text together.

 

*Do the related workbook problems either later in the day or the next day, as independent work. This gives the information time to gel before he tries to tackle it on his own, and will provide a better metric of whether or not he really digested it or just did the nod and "Yes I get it" because the presentation of the material in Singapore is so logical and appears so easy-- at first.

 

*Assign any practices and reviews as independent work, helping him with any problems he is stuck on as needed. These are not tests. Make sure your assistance is helping him to store the information in memory though, and isn't just doing the assignment for him. Let him use the manipulatives if needed. I like to only assign some of the workbook exercises, so that if the reviews show any gaps, he can go back and do the workbook pages again on his own another day. If you're using the IP book, you can do this step with the IP book instead-- assign the IP book a week or two behind the main lessons. Neurologically, we need to see material a few times before we build permanent connections.

 

*Don't move on until he has achieved the lesson goal. Do remember that Singapore will repeat the lesson again in the next year (though going into more detail). If it isn't *perfect* that's probably okay. I used to freak out about that in the younger levels, then I realized that with the repetition, he got better. I had to set realistic goals for his accomplishment, that were age-appropriate. Perfect mastery each exposure was not appropriate, even for a highly gifted kid. However, by the time he finished level 5B, he had the information nailed down. So understand the lesson goals, what they are, and what they aren't. Number bonds early on are pretty important. Understanding the relationships between the numerator and denominator is important. Understanding the number line is important. Perfect recall of area and volumetric formulae in the third level book is not essential; it will be repeated. Perfection of all fraction operations in the 3rd level book is not essential; it will be repeated. Measurement will be practiced continuously throughout the books (at least, in the US Edition) in all the word problems after being introduced, and reviewed in each level, and you can reinforce by having him cook with you.

 

*Go at your son's pace. Remember those test scores? Remember that a grade equivalency does not mean your son is working at that grade level. Slow down. If he likes Singapore, give it another shot; it's an excellent program.

 

**A note about Math Mammoth: Yes, all the information needed for instruction is right on those pages. The pages are written directly to the student, and presented in a very logical, incremental fashion. MM is another excellent program.

 

Good luck to you! It can be a shaky feeling to try to find a good match-up for both you and your kiddo! It doesn't help when everyone has an opinion, but in the end yours is the one that counts :)

[luthernose]

Thank you Jen Nittany for your thorough explanation of SM, which helps quite a bit. Can you further clarify a few things? What does concrete pictorial abstract mean when applied to teaching SM? It's a bit confusing for me, not having a teaching background. Also, when you went through the steps for instruction (which look excellent), can you clarify the first step "introduce the material using the concrete hands-on lessons". I am not aware of any manipulatively SM offers. I have a whiteboard, balance scale, cuis. rods, charts, number line, clock, and that's about it. How can I make the instruction concrete and hands-on? I have typically drawn pics on the whiteboard of what the HIG is wanting me to demonstrate, then we use problems from the text on the board to practice, then I have him do the wb pages and some a mental math sheet from the HIG. Definitely to much seat time for one sitting with an active boy.

 

I definitely plan to slow down this year and go at his pace and resist the urge to just "get through it on schedule". I'm such a type A perfectionist. My poor kids. ;) We will definitely use the web, HIG, text and extra practice if we do SM. Do you think it's confusing to supplement with the Math U See videos for each concept? I'm not sure they line up well, but I love the way he presents concepts, it's so understandable.

[NittanyJen]

FYI, I am not ignoring your questions!  I had the poor judgement to stand on a spider's nest the other night when bringing in my wash-- short story is that I was bitten at least 21 times!  Sadly, I don't react well to Benadryl, but I decided it was better than the ER, so I've been swimming back up from those reactions.  Not sure what kind of spider it was, other than they were small, brown, furry, and lived in the ground in mind-blowing numbers-- I couldn't even see my legs from the knee down there were so many of them all over me ::::::shudder:::::  Even sadder, even after all those bites, I still cannot spin a web on my own-- bummer.  I was hoping for some super powers or something.

 

Anyway, I will get back to you when I'm firing on all cylinders again!

 

 

Thank you Jen Nittany for your thorough explanation of SM, which helps quite a bit. Can you further clarify a few things? What does concrete pictorial abstract mean when applied to teaching SM? It's a bit confusing for me, not having a teaching background. Also, when you went through the steps for instruction (which look excellent), can you clarify the first step "introduce the material using the concrete hands-on lessons". I am not aware of any manipulatively SM offers. I have a whiteboard, balance scale, cuis. rods, charts, number line, clock, and that's about it. How can I make the instruction concrete and hands-on? I have typically drawn pics on the whiteboard of what the HIG is wanting me to demonstrate, then we use problems from the text on the board to practice, then I have him do the wb pages and some a mental math sheet from the HIG. Definitely to much seat time for one sitting with an active boy.

I definitely plan to slow down this year and go at his pace and resist the urge to just "get through it on schedule". I'm such a type A perfectionist. My poor kids. ;) We will definitely use the web, HIG, text and extra practice if we do SM. Do you think it's confusing to supplement with the Math U See videos for each concept? I'm not sure they line up well, but I love the way he presents concepts, it's so understandable.

 

[warneral]

Oh Jen! Sounds like a horror movie

[Pen]

My ds had excellent retention from what was done in MUS--and it can be speeded up if the child is ready to go on faster by doing fewer of the practice pages.  My ds also found it boring however, and I moved to something else, which may have been a mistake as his retention was not as good (the something else was MM).

 

You could do MUS and a something else to cover more types of things (for example, a Spectrum workbook, or SM challenging word problems or IP if he likes SM, or Mathematical Reasoning).   

 

Another possibility could be Math in Focus which is a SM style math but might be more user friendly for you.

[...................]

I would stay with Saxon.

 

We had a 3 month foray into a mastery based critical thinking type math. My son complained a lot less about boredom, but then he ended up very frustrated about lack of memory. So he ended up with a worse problem than being bored. And then I had to supplement so much with different drills that they complained about that.

 

At least with Saxon they have so much retention and that builds confidence!!! So if something is repetitive that's not so bad.

 

Math is hard work however you shake it, just like learning the piano or learning ballet. It takes time.

 

Use whatever math works seamlessly for your child.

[Guest]

Bob Jones wins here after trying 16+ other programs over 8-9 yrs. I use the DVDs option because I am a bad math teacher. It is worth the cost.

[NittanyJen]

Thank you Jen Nittany for your thorough explanation of SM, which helps quite a bit. Can you further clarify a few things? What does concrete pictorial abstract mean when applied to teaching SM? It's a bit confusing for me, not having a teaching background. Also, when you went through the steps for instruction (which look excellent), can you clarify the first step "introduce the material using the concrete hands-on lessons". I am not aware of any manipulatively SM offers. I have a whiteboard, balance scale, cuis. rods, charts, number line, clock, and that's about it. How can I make the instruction concrete and hands-on? I have typically drawn pics on the whiteboard of what the HIG is wanting me to demonstrate, then we use problems from the text on the board to practice, then I have him do the wb pages and some a mental math sheet from the HIG. Definitely to much seat time for one sitting with an active boy.

 

I definitely plan to slow down this year and go at his pace and resist the urge to just "get through it on schedule". I'm such a type A perfectionist. My poor kids. ;) We will definitely use the web, HIG, text and extra practice if we do SM. Do you think it's confusing to supplement with the Math U See videos for each concept? I'm not sure they line up well, but I love the way he presents concepts, it's so understandable.

 

Here is how I do it, in well under 30 minutes of direct instruction per lesson:

(individual lessons may vary some, because of course if he has having a load of fun I don't cut him off!):

 

Concrete-- Anything hands on you can do to introduce the concept in a way that matches the way they are showing it in the textbook.  It's okay to extend the idea, but try to avoid reverting back to the way you were taught (unless you were taught the Asian way yourself as a kid, which most users of these boards were not).  

 

When introducing my 9YO to angles and compass directions, we had some fun with it-- I used the GPS on my husband's phone to find true north in our kitchen, and laid down painter's tape pointing N, S, E, W, NE, SE, SW, and NW.  I made the NW direction clear.  For fun I also labeled that as 12:00.  I laid out a second set of crosshairs in painter's tape on the floor next to it, just a single X in a perfect 90-degree angle, with one tape line parallel to the N-S line and the other parallel to the E_W line.  I had him stand, facing north, and asked him to turn 90 degrees to the west.  Okay, now turn 180 degrees clockwise.  Now turn 270 degrees counterclockwise.  Now turn 45 degrees more counterclockwise.  What direction are you facing?  If you turn 90 degrees plus 180 degrees more in the same direction, how many degrees will you have turned?  How many more degrees will you need to turn in order to complete turning in a circle?  It was pretty easy to just stand there and make up questions, and he had a lot of fun with it.  We'd play on those tape lines for a couple of weeks, and by the end of it, his sense of time, direction, and angles was excellent (and he always knows which way is north if he's anywhere in our house or yard or nearby in our neighborhood!!).

 

To introduce fractions without purchasing manipulatives: cut a strip of paper 12" long and 1 or 2" wide.  Fold it exactly in quarters.  Make several of these (say, 4).  Have him shade in 1 box, 2 boxes, 3 boxes, and 4 boxes on each respective strip, and write the appropriate fraction on each strip in dark marker.  Point out that the bottom number is the same on each strip, because the bottom number, the denominator, shows you how many (equal) pieces you have divided something into.  (Accordion the thing up so he can see they are equal).  The top number, the numerator, shows you how many pieces you have-- one of the quarters, two of the quarters, three of the quarters, or four of the quarters.  If you have all four of the quarters, you must have the whole thing, which is why 4/4 = 1.  Does he think this will be a rule?  Will something over itself always be 1, then?

 

For more involved fraction math, I personally love fraction stacks, and we have gotten our money's worth from them.  Hand him several stacks, and ask him to add 1/4 plus 1/3 plus 1/6 plus 1/8.  It will be frustrating for a while . . . until he figures out that he can swap out each of those blocks for an appropriate number of 1/12 blocks, and then add up the 1/12 blocks with ease.   You can do something similar with Cuisinaire rods, of course.  I believe member Rosie has some brilliant videos on how to show just about anything with Cuisinaire rods.

 

With the fraction stacks, you can again reinforce the fraction concept itself.  Why is 1/4 bigger than 1/6?  If he remembers the first lesson with the paper, he should stare at the blocks, put the stacks together into whole 1's, and then remember and be able to tell you in his own words that the 6, the denominator, means the whole was divided into 6 pieces, and the 4 means that one was only divided into 4 pieces, so the 1/4 will be bigger.

 

Okay, so now onto pictorial.  In Singapore Math, nearly EVERYTHING comes down to bar models.  In fractions, this is quite obvious in the easier problem levels-- draw a rod and divide it up as necessary.  As you go into harder problems, KEEP USING THE BAR MODELS.  There are other pictorial representations-- redistributing tens into ones when you need more ones in order to subtract is done pictorally; obviously much geometry is done pictorally*

 

*Geometry:  The geometry lessons in the level 5 books are positively BRILLIANT.  Assuming you have stuck with Singapore that long, DO NO SKIMP on the CONCRETE in these lessons!  I am writing this from the perspective of having used the US Edition; I can only assume the Standards Edition is similar, given the loyal following it has.  When the text shows a triangle with the points folding down to fit into a rectangle--- GO get graph paper, cut out the triangle and have your child actually do this, and PROVE that the area of a triangle is 1/2bh.  Particularly wacky shaped triangles where he will have to draw a reference triangle first!  This is math that was traditionally never taught until high school, and my 9YO got it instantly once he did it hands-on like this.  Similarly with the angle theorems that are taught in these books-- actually cut out triangles and trapezoids and the other shapes and let him prove that the angles add up the way the books suggests.  Use a straight edge, use a protractor, use a right-angle.  These lessons will be unforgettable.

 

**I know this sounds like quite a lot, but these lessons do NOT need to take a long time.  They can be quite short, in fact, if your son gets them.  Leave the stuff out so he can play with it in his own way later if he wants to, with no pressure.  Be prepared to make a few props beforehand if you don't want to buy stuff you may only use a few times, depending upon his age.  We spend about 4-10 minutes on the concrete stuff, depending upon the lesson (geometry got long, because it was so much fun; he loves that stuff).  We take a short stretch, then sit down for the pictorial stuff, which is about 2-4 minutes, as it is often just a recap of what we learned in a concrete fashion.  If it is tougher, we may take longer.  Then we do the abstract (writing it all out in symbols and numbers) as we do the problems together-- maybe 5-10 minutes.  That is under 30 minutes at the most for direct instruction, per lesson.

 

Only after we are done everything we are to cover that day will I hand off the workbook.  We do absolutely NO "flipping back and forth through books."  I hand him the workbook, and he does all the marked exercises independently for that day at once.  We save all flipping for gymnastics :).

[kbutton]

I know I am not the OP, but thank you Nittany Jen! We used SM for our first HS year last year, and while I really liked it, We were dealing with unidentified special needs (2e aspie with dysgraphia) as well as trying to get DS to the right level (previous program from school was completely different). he doesn't retain math facts, but the word problems were too easy for him, so we would blaze through some portions and slog down in others. I was a little worried about the next level as there are many new concepts, but this gives me greater confidence that I can actually follow the scope and sequence this year and not have to adjust so much. I will also try more hands-on--last year it was overkill given that the focus was "mastering" math facts that he understood conceptually but just.wouldn't.retain.

[Mommy22alyns]

He may just not be cut out for Singapore, which is just fine.  I would pick one program and stick with it, and it sounds like he needs a spiral approach.  Just throwing CLE out there - it's been a huge lifesaver here!

[Farrar]

I looked at Math Mammoth and printed out some sample pages. It doesn't look like there is any instruction on how to teach the concepts effectively. Is there really enough there? My son immediately dug in his heels when I had him look at it (probably because it doesn't look as "fun" as SM), but after trying out a little of it, he said he could do it. Am I right that it does NOT include a TG, or text, just basically a workbook? Sounds like most people think MM has more practice and presents the info in smaller steps than SM. Is that accurate? 

 

 

When someone says SM but with more practice and more scaffolding or incremental steps, that always sounds like MM to me, so I thought I'd come back to that suggestion if you're still interested in it.

 

Yes, there's no TG with MM.  It's only a worktext.  The instruction is on the pages, written to the student.  There are a few pages at the start of each chapter that are to the parent and include links to online games and some teaching tips, but mostly it's just there on the page.  The bulk of the instruction is actually doing the problems.  They are very incremental and they teach different ways of thinking but in baby steps.

 

The look of MM is very dry and busy pages, which is, IMO, it's biggest drawback BY FAR.  Many kids don't like it for that reason or are immediately intimidated by it.  But it's a great program and very inexpensive.  It works extremely well for one of my ds.  The other one not so much.

 

Whatever you do, it sounds like you need to inject some love and fun into math.  How about making a day when (in addition to regular math work) you read living math books (things like Penrose and Sir Cumference) or work on a math project (like about symmetry or with grid art) or do a math lab (try The Perfectly Perilous Book of Math) or play a math game (lots of options out there for that) or watch a math video (Vi Hart's Youtube channel is a good option for that).  I find that giving this type of "side" attention to math helps us appreciate the sometimes duller work of practice.

[jessj]

Just a note about SM Manipulatives.  I know there was a list somewhere in the books, maybe the HIG?  But if you go to Rainbow Resource, under their math section there is a separate section for "Singapore mainipulatives"  Or similar wording.  For my own kids I've found it's worth it to use them.  I've been making do without some of them and this year I decided to order them.  Even seeing a picture of something isn't the same as moving the same thing with your own fingers.  Some kids really need that step. 

 

We started out with MUS, moved to Singapore and have done well with it.  I will admit that I don't go through all the steps of each lesson if it seems like my child understands.  But I also like that on something she doesn't understand (we hit a wall with division in 3a), I can slow down, order the intensive practice book, and park there until she does get it. 

Math Mammoth is also great.  I've printed many samples and also have ordered a couple of her Blue Series books to supplement Singapore.  For my very visual family though, they aren't visually appealing enough.  Also, switching programs in the middle can be difficult.  And it often leads to confusion and frustration... for everyone!  I would say if your son LIKES Singapore, you've won over half the battle.  Slow down a bit, take your time.  There is no rush! 

[luthernose]

Wow. You all have been so very helpful and supportive with your thorough explanations. I'm thankful to be on this board. Thanks everyone for your help.

 

I realize now I have definitely gone too fast in the name of getting the lessons "checked off" and I totally skimped on the "concrete" demonstrations because I thought it would take too long. If I had taken the time to explain the concept thoroughly, our lessons probably would have actually been faster (not that being fast is the main thing, but my 9-year-old ds takes about an hour and half to do his math work-this makes it very hard to get all our work done). I think we need to take SM in smaller chunks, making sure to go through the steps of concrete, pictoral and then abstract like Jen said (thank you Jen for your incredibly thorough explanation of how to teach math!). We need to really emphasize hands-on materials. I wish I were more creative and on-the-ball with these ideas. Do these ideas all come from the HIG?? I would like to use MUS too, but I'm not yet sure how to work with both properly. I want to emphasize the one as the main program and supplement with the other. Gratitude so beautifully suggested using MUS as a review that is behind what we are doing to solidify math concepts previously learned (do two MUS worksheets, then do the MUS test-as a break from SM math for each week). I really like the MUS videos and would like to incorporate them somehow. Is this too much? My kids like watching the MUS videos. I like the way each concept builds on the next.

 

Does anyone else use both SM and MUS together? I would love to hear more about how they might work together.

[NittanyJen]

I don't use the HIG myself, but I highly recommend it if you have difficulty seeing ways to create the concrete activities, as they are in there.

 

Even better, on the Singapore website you will find the college textbook (not expensive) used to teach classroom teachers how to teach the Singapore way, and I understand it is loaded with activities; it sounds like an excellent investment to me.

 

We use Singapore and Life of Fred together, but I hear good things about MUS too. Use what works for your family.

[haleysmommom]

I didn't read all of this, I apologize. But I identify with you, op, as this is our second year with hs, and last year, I too, was kept up at night trying to choose a math program. My son is now 10, math was his worst subject, and the reason I pulled him from ps. He is doing sooooo well now, above grade level, well above what ps is doing anyway. :)

We are using mcp math. I don't know why I never see it mentioned, but we love it. It is straightforward, easy to understand, lots of practice, optional review at end of chapters , tests, etc. My son was failing math in ps. Now he's getting it, the progress is amazing. Hope this helps someone!

[luthernose]

Ok, you ladies have all been just awesome and so helpful with giving me a variety of viewpoints. Thank you so much. :) We are going to try staying with SM and also supplementing with MUS behind our SM lessons to solidify concepts already learned. I just really like them both and maybe during our year one will "win out" over the other. We're going to try this and see how it goes. If anyone else has experience with doing this, I would love to hear about how exactly you do this (what days of the week you do one or the other, how much time you spend on one and then the other, how far behind one curriculum is over the other, any way you correlate the two, whether you watch ALL the videos, etc.). Thank you! :)

[jessj]

I know someone who uses MUS and Singapore both.  I'm pretty sure they go through both full curriculum every year.  Actually more than one.  

 

I think you could go through MUS using very little of the worksheets.  And at the same time go through Singapore doing the full thing.  They won't match up though.  We've done MUS Primary - Beta and Singapore up to 3a.  (different kids, different times)  My younger daughter is a faster worker, and is more advanced in math.  She's actually done both MUS and Singapore, but not at the same time.  She did a level of MUS first, and then a level of Singapore.  My elder daughter has only done one or the other.  (She recently tested very very well in math so don't feel you have to do two curriculum!)  We started with MUS for her K-1 and then moved to Singapore for 2-3.  Singapore is now our core for both kids.  I won't be doing anymore MUS after YDD finishes up Beta.  I will probably supplement a bit with MM instead if I need to. 

It can be so hard to choose ONE when you see things you like in each.  I keep saying that if Singapore had a teaching video... it would be perfect! 

[jer2911mom]

luthernose, you might find this thread helpful:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/454789-combining-mus-and-singapore/

 

Kathy

[wallingjan]

We had a couple of years of math angst. We dropped Saxon because I was bored and she didn't like it. We then struggled through many programs and realized that she absolutely needed spiral review. I used math on the level to build my own review for math mammoth. Ugh. In the end we circled back around and realized that Saxon actually had what we needed and she just gets it done. It's not her favorite, but she accepts that it works for her and vows to just use it and move on the the subjects she finds more fun.