family of 10 starts college at age 12

[Murphy101]

Real college is college classes. What rot to say not taking 15-18 credits semesters isn't "real." Whether they take 12 or 18 a semester doesn't change the course they took or the knowledge required/attained at completion of the course.

 

 

[regentrude]

Real college is college classes. What rot to say not taking 15-18 credits semesters isn't "real." Whether they take 12 or 18 a semester doesn't change the course they took or the knowledge required/attained at completion of the course.

 

But my point was that it there is a big difference in how I would advertise my child's achievement to the world.

I would consider it a misrepresentation to talk about a child who is taken one college course as "having started college" or as being "in college". No. The kid is living at home and supplementing his high school education by taking a college class.

Not that special, not worth writing an ebook, and not worth asking for fees for speaking engagement.

I was under the impression that the kids of this family are actually full time college students at age 12. If they are not, it's not worth mentioning, and certainly not worth selling the experience.

[Nan in Mass]

I suspect there are many college students who consider a STEM degree SPARTA. : )

[stripe]

Back in the old days, kids would start working on the family farm as early as 4 years old and go off to war at the age of 10 or 12.

 

I am uncomfortable with 10-12 year olds who are either soldiers or parents.

 

I am aware of children in present-day Uganda who have been forced into military-like service for the Lord's Resistance Army, and I do not think it is a good thing at all.

 

I think there is a time between the onset of puberty, which can be younger than the 10-12 window cited, and fully assuming complete adult responsibilities. I don't think that's necessarily merely indulging them. Women who have first intercourse when very young have a significantly higher risk of cervical cancer than those who do so later. Just as an example.

[Arcadia]

. But I would not sell this as "my 12 year old has started college". He may have started taking college courses - BIG difference! I was under the impression that the people we are discussing refer to actual college, not supplementing a home education with individual college classes.

And "real" college would involve a 16-18 credit workload.

 

It seems they took a college workload at Faulkner University, Huntingdon College and Auburn University of Montgomery.

From a Todayarticle

"Her brother Heath started at age 11. He's finishing his master's in computer science -- at 17."

"By 12, Seth was hanging out with students nearly twice his age, studying the Middle Ages at Faulkner University"

"Keith is just down the hall, studying finite mathematics, a college senior -- at 14."

 

"But what happens to their childhood?

"We didn’t limit their experience," Mona Lisa says. "They’re taking college classes, but socially, they are just teenagers." Who live at home, not in college dorms.

"We don't drop them off at school, 16 credit hours first semester, 'bye, I'll see you,'" Kip says. These are not itty-bitty adults. They play with kids their own age, but they don’t wait until they're older to figure out what they love in life."

 

From a WSFA article

"While living in California, Harding took a graduation proficiency exam and passed it at the age of 13. Four years later, she was AUM's youngest graduate ever.

....

So what's next for this over achiever? Harding says she has applied to NASA, where she hopes to become an astronaut.

Serennah Harding is a college senior at age 16 and her brother, Heath, is a freshman at age 12. Both attend classes at Huntingdon College in Montgomery."

 

ETA:

I think the graduation proficiency exam Hannah took is the California High School Proficiency Exam

"CHSPE is a test for students who need to verify high school level skills. In some cases, students take the test and leave high school early to work or attend college. Those who pass the test receive a Certificate of Proficiency from the State Board of Education, which is equal by law to a California high school diploma.

People who are 16 years of age or older may take the test. Younger people who meet other criteria can also take the test. This test is given three times each year at many sites in California. The test covers three subjects: reading, writing, and math."

[stripe]

Here is an article from the Davidson Institute on young children attending college

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10108.aspx

 

Notice the section on having your child take courses on knitting and cooking, and other typically enrichment courses.

 

This article is interesting too

 

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/06/16/age

[quark]

I was intrigued enough to buy the ebook and am reading it now.

 

I know she insists her kids are average but they don't sound that way from her journal-style entries in the ebook. She refers to "their gifts" often enough for me to suspect she knows they are gifted but is also being humble because she believes it's not godly to brag.

 

Other than the religious flavor of the ebook, I recognize parenting strategies that I follow in my home such as insisting on hard work and a good attitude. I wouldn't call them unschoolers from her description of what they do. But they do definitely seem to have a different attitude from the majority of homeschoolers I know who still follow a public school model despite homeschooling. Yes, they school year-round and believe kids can start higher level work at anytime as soon as they demonstrate a willingness to learn it and have the drive to learn it. They sound like parents who have stressed enough on motivation and drive so that the kids naturally pick up on it from the example of the older sibs.

 

(ETA: I also get the impression that the kids are mature at an early age. I have the same experience with my only. Was referring to himself in adult terms from a very young age. And like my family, they also seem to believe that there is no need to stop being young-at-heart after 12 or 18 or 25 or whatever. I resonate with this.)

 

There are transcript examples in the book too. She doesn't state explicitly that these are her kids' transcripts (or maybe I missed it) but I think one can assume they are. She believes in allowing her children to learn and relearn until they get an A so all the grades in these sample transcripts are As. I suspect her standards may not be as high as those of the parents who have responded in this thread.

 

An interesting read so far...casual and informal and obviously not edited (they state this upfront). Like others, I don't like the idea of them profiting from this through astronomically-priced speaking engagements though. I don't mind the $20 for the ebook...but $10,000 is preposterous.

[Nan in Mass]

 

I am uncomfortable with 10-12 year olds who are either soldiers or parents.

 

I am aware of children in present-day Uganda who have been forced into military-like service for the Lord's Resistance Army, and I do not think it is a good thing at all.

 

I think there is a time between the onset of puberty, which can be younger than the 10-12 window cited, and fully assuming complete adult responsibilities. I don't think that's necessarily merely indulging them. Women who have first intercourse when very young have a significantly higher risk of cervical cancer than those who do so later. Just as an example.

 

 

I agree.

 

I think the answer to "why" we have teen years between childhood and full adulthood has a lot to do with not being as desperate. I also think it probably did not take the same kind of maturity to do a low-level soldier's job back then, or to be a farm labourer. I am guessing that feeding a crying child takes a different sort of maturity than studying hard now so that in 4 or 8 years you will have a better job. Some jobs have much more concrete and immediate consequences than others.

 

Nan

[Arcadia]

I know she insists her kids are average but they don't sound that way from her journal-style entries in the ebook. She refers to "their gifts" often enough for me to suspect she knows they are gifted but is also being humble because she believes it's not godly to brag.

 

 

I am wondering whether the word "gifts" in her ebook is used in the religous context instead of as gifted. I attended a catholic school even though I am an agnostic. We (students) are reminded in catechism that we are gifts from God and are each blessed with our own gifts.

[quark]

I am wondering whether the word "gifts" in her ebook is used in the religous context instead of as gifted. I attended a catholic school even though I am an agnostic. We (students) are reminded in catechism that we are gifts from God and are each blessed with our own gifts.

 

It could be that Arcadia. I sense a bit of both actually, but it could be my own reading-between-the-lines into what she says. Personally, I find it a bit of a disconnect, her insisting that she did not choose their genes and their personality. I can't stop myself from shrugging disbelievingly at that. :p

 

I also find it very interesting, at least in Part 1 so far (and I'm in page 40+ of the 90+ pages) that the question they are addressing is "can my child go to college younger?" instead of "should my child go to college younger?". They only briefly touch on the social emotional aspects of it (they don't mention kids taking 16-18 credit classes the first year, and I believe for the older ones, the mom hung around the campus the first year or maybe less than that so kids were not just totally on their own; later on, older sibs helped watch/ study with younger sibs on campus). I haven't read all the responses in this thread so maybe there has already been an extensive discussion of this.

 

They deviate a lot into parenting/ religion so maybe that's their explanation for social-emotional strength. I should probably read it again if I find it interesting enough, to catch all the little nuances.

[Nan in Mass]

Just wanted to say Thank you, Quark, for working to satisfying our curiosity. : )

[8filltheheart]

Nan keeps correctly reminding us that we all might make different choices if we had ten children.

 

Some of us (I, for one) only have a few children and have been saying that we suspect that if we had ten children, we might very well change our minds about how we chose to educate them.

 

 

Well, we might only have 8 and not 10.....but honestly, I think that the number of children one has has absolutely ZERO to do with this conversation. I think it has everything to do with personal philosophy about education, childhood, and the role of parents.

 

(ETA: I hesitated posting this, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that the 3rd one that I listed, role of parents, is another reason why I am completely opposed to this approach. We are pretty hands-off parents with the decisions our young adult children make that affect their futures. We offer guidance and suggestions, but ultimately, we leave our children to live their own lives with the consequences of the decisions they make. So, when it comes to choosing majors/careers/etc, they pretty much make those decisions completely on their own. That is not the role I play with my kids at age 12. Yet, I would be very uncomfortable attempting to influence the decisions that would impact their futures to extent that careers do impact our lives.)

 

Real college is college classes. What rot to say not taking 15-18 credits semesters isn't "real." Whether they take 12 or 18 a semester doesn't change the course they took or the knowledge required/attained at completion of the course.

 

 

It is a valid distinction. I do not say that my 11th grader attends college. He is a high school student taking a couple of college level courses. Based on the wording presented, full-time attendance is what it sounds like. 15-18 hrs is pretty standard for full-time enrollment. There is a huge difference between managing a couple of college courses and full-time load. FWIW, it does sound like their kids are attending full-time.

[Jane in NC]

I guess I don't consider college to be anything more than a place to learn stuff.

 

Dealing with teachers, classmates, making study time and choosing courses is just... Idk...life? Don't they do that in high school and even middle school and such already? It's just more of the same?

 

 

Homeschooling parents are often attracted to online courses, co-op or dual enrollment for the purposes of accountability to someone other than Mom. My son attended a Montessori school through 6th grade so he did have the experience of dealing with classmates, but not with choosing courses or dealing with teachers until he took some classes at the CC via dual enrollment. Even then, the experience at the CC was quite different than elementary school--and quite different from his residential college.

 

My son and I often discussed course content or reading selections. But he had not shopped for his own books--online or in the bookstore--until dual enrollment. Even then we found that Mommy deadlines had some fluidity compared to those CC deadlines.

 

College is about classwork but much more happens there. My son's roommate as a first year student was a young man from Ho Chi Minh City. Going from the tropics of Viet Nam to winter in the Midwest was quite a transition. He relied on my son to help him with his assimilation--which in turn made my son aware of cultural differences. (Sure, that doesn't have to be a college experience but most students do not reside with foreign nationals as high school students unless families welcome exchange students or encourage their own children to go this route.)

 

My son's college features luncheons and evening lectures with visiting scholars, opportunities to have one on one conversations with people doing things of interest to him. People who live in college towns have more of these opportunities but it is usually to sit in an audience and hear a lecture--not share a meal with an expert.

 

Kids in college have to learn to listen to their own bodies. Some don't. What happens when your suitemate is ill or depressed? Do you only focus on yourself or do you step in and accompany your suitemate to the student health facility?

 

College is about the classroom but also the library. Most of us do not have access to the variety of scholarly journals that students can use. Recently I wrote over on the College Board about the incredible new library at NCSU. What a place for geeks to congregate and discuss engineering problems! There are writeable walls in this library where students pose problems and potential solutions. This to me defines the college experience, the convergence of likemindedness that rarely happens in regular society. This is a place to do your work but also participate in problem solving with other students who may be on different tracks, a place to toss out your brilliant idea for bolstering or to be shot down.

 

What makes college different than high school is that many high schoolers have no interest in being in the building. Granted, some college students are not interested in their educations either but these people are usually filtered out after a semester or two. What remains, at least one hopes, is a community where intellectual inquiry is welcomed and encouraged. Whatever it is, it ain't middle school.

[Arcadia]

Personally, I find it a bit of a disconnect, her insisting that she did not choose their genes and their personality. I can't stop myself from shrugging disbelievingly at that. :p

 

I also find it very interesting, at least in Part 1 so far (and I'm in page 40+ of the 90+ pages) that the question they are addressing is "can my child go to college younger?" instead of "should my child go to college younger?".

 

Technically the mother could not choose the gene makeup of any of her children so I don't see a disconnect with that.

My dad was the youngest of 9 children and worked in the family business afterschool since he was 5. I am sure my paternal grandfather would be happy to let any of my uncles and aunts skip grades to get to college younger. In fact my maternal aunt skip a few grades and did 6 years of elementary school in 3 years. I guess having a big family somehow swing the pendulum to can instead of should.

The mum mentioned honing in to her children's individual interest as soon as they have a specific interest. That would probably cut down on the number of subjects they took before college. I don't know what they took before college but in general removing music, world languages, literature, art and history as academic subjects would already free up a lot of time.

The CHSPE that the oldest Harding took is only testing english and math. You can take a look at the sample and let your son try it :)

CHSPE sample http://www.chspe.net/about/specs-samples/secure/CHSPE_Sample_Questions.pdf

These are what I can find for Alabama High school graduation exam http://www.ptc.dcs.edu/schools/hs/ahs/Front%20Page%20Items/AHSGE_Practice_Qs.htm

[Arcadia]

My son and I often discussed course content or reading selections. But he had not shopped for his own books--online or in the bookstore--until dual enrollment. Even then we found that Mommy deadlines had some fluidity compared to those CC deadlines.

 

Some college kids still expect their parents to rescue them with book orders and stuff. My former neighbors had to help their college kids hunt for textbooks around town as it was out of stock probably at the college bookstore. My hubby had to buy a college textbook at a local bookstore for his aunt to ship to a cousin in pre-med overseas because it was out of stock and his cousin waited until the last minute.

Recently I wrote over on the College Board about the incredible new library at NCSU. What a place for geeks to congregate and discuss engineering problems! There are writeable walls in this library where students pose problems and potential solutions. This to me defines the college experience, the convergence of likemindedness that rarely happens in regular society. This is a place to do your work but also participate in problem solving with other students who may be on different tracks, a place to toss out your brilliant idea for bolstering or to be shot down.

 

Lovely idea :) reminds me of Facebook and other started in college business.

[I.Dup.]

Re: getting adjusted to college, not having anyone check homework, needing to choose classes and get there on time, needing supplies for exams without being reminded by a certain date, etc, I would assume the parent would have a lot to do with that, until the child got used to this. It's not THAT hard to learn. It would just take some time to get used to.

 

(ETA: I hesitated posting this, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that the 3rd one that I listed, role of parents, is another reason why I am completely opposed to this approach. We are pretty hands-off parents with the decisions our young adult children make that affect their futures. We offer guidance and suggestions, but ultimately, we leave our children to live their own lives with the consequences of the decisions they make. So, when it comes to choosing majors/careers/etc, they pretty much make those decisions completely on their own. That is not the role I play with my kids at age 12. Yet, I would be very uncomfortable attempting to influence the decisions that would impact their futures to extent that careers do impact our lives.)

 

 

I don't understand this. Does this go back to how independent our good ol' American culture is? It's only been this way since after WWII, what with families all spread out and fending completely for themselves. Why is it so bad for parents to counsel and give their kids advice on these matters? Isn't that what parents have done since the beginning of time?

 

Quark, does the ebook provide details of HOW they make this happen? How they structure their kids days, what they require, how they get them the certain amount of classes by certain ages, etc?

[8filltheheart]

I don't understand this. Does this go back to how independent our good ol' American culture is? It's only been this way since after WWII, what with families all spread out and fending completely for themselves. Why is it so bad for parents to counsel and give their kids advice on these matters? Isn't that what parents have done since the beginning of time?

 

How does one counsel a 12 yr old on a major and career choice? I guess my 6th graders are way below avg in maturity. I have to help my 11 yr old (will be 12 in Nov) put sheets on her top bunk. Some days she gets dressed and forgets to brush her hair. She day dreams. She plays Barbies and American girl dolls. She plays dress-up. She hasn't hit puberty. One day she declares she is positive that she wants to be a meteorologist while the next she wants to be an author while the next she wants to be a fashion designer...... Any "guidance" I would give would be either my bias or my perception of her 12 yr old skills/interests (which are often not indicative of their adult selves. My kids have had major "mental explosions" in middle school that have drastically changed their abilities/interests.)

 

When my kids are in high school, 11th and 12th grades are far more targeted toward what they perceive their career goals to be. They have the opportunity to explore subject matter in-depth and investigate what that career means. ( That "investigation" process wouldn't even necessarily be open to a 12 yr old. I know the plant where my dh works would definitely not allow a 12 yr old to enter the facility, so what working in a factory as an engineer entails is something that has no real connection to reality. ) Through these opportunities, they often discern what they like and what they don't. I am not making decisions for them. We offer the opportunities. They discern.

[Arcadia]

Re: getting adjusted to college, not having anyone check homework, needing to choose classes and get there on time, needing supplies for exams without being reminded by a certain date, etc, I would assume the parent would have a lot to do with that, until the child got used to this. It's not THAT hard to learn. It would just take some time to get used to.

 

One put-off about sending my own kids to local colleges a few years early is that dorm stay is required for the first year. The Harding family ferried their kids to college everyday and pick them up at the end of day. The parents are able to wake up the kids and get them to college on time for their first lessons. They are able to remind/nag their kids about their college assignments and exams. They are able to proofread their kids homework if they are in the mood for it. They are able to give opinion on course selections and remind their kids to register for the next semester courses on the first day registration opens (or the course vacancies will fill up).

It is a different scenario from sending a teenager at 12 to stay in a co-ed dorm where his/her room-mate might most likely be a 17 year old. There are people in dorms who overslept and miss their exams. When I was in the hostel/dorm, we had a whiteboard on every level where people can put down their names and room number for "waking up service" for exams. So people like me who wakes up early would just do a kindness and knock on a few doors to make sure those people taking morning exams are awake and down for breakfast. We do the same kindness for people taking afternoon exams. There are obviously people who forgot to do their laundry and wear the same shirt two days in a row. There are also obviously the engineering guys who come to class at 9am half awake, hair in a mess and definately hungry from missing breakfast :)

If you have a nearby college where you can send your kids to and there is no dorm requirement, than sending kids to college at 12 might be workable for your family.

[Nan in Mass]

 

 

 

Well, we might only have 8 and not 10.....but honestly, I think that the number of children one has has absolutely ZERO to do with this conversation. I think it has everything to do with personal philosophy about education, childhood, and the role of parents.

 

: ) I will defer to your wisdom. It is not something I have any experience with. Although, now that you mention it, I remember adding my sister's three children to my three effortlessly. I wasn't homeschooling then, though. Anyway, it is outside my experience so I probably shouldn't have mentioned it. : )

 

(ETA: I hesitated posting this' date=' but the more I think about it, the more I realize that the 3rd one that I listed, role of parents, is another reason why I am completely opposed to this approach. We are pretty hands-off parents with the decisions our young adult children make that affect their futures. We offer guidance and suggestions, but ultimately, we leave our children to live their own lives with the consequences of the decisions they make. So, when it comes to choosing majors/careers/etc, they pretty much make those decisions completely on their own. That is not the role I play with my kids at age 12. Yet, I would be very uncomfortable attempting to influence the decisions that would impact their futures to extent that careers do impact our lives.)

[/quote']

 

I agree. Some of my children knew where they were going at 12. For those children, I was willing to add things, and I was willing to skimp on things to make room for the additions, but I wasn't willing to elimiate things until they were older. I wanted to keep as many options open as long as possible.

 

Nan

[umsami]

 

 

PS I just realized the 22 year old in the Harding family is an osteopath not an MD--not sure how that relates, and for the older girls, teacher and architect, the younger age is perhaps not such an issue in those areas.

 

Not sure if anybody addressed this, but having DOs and MDs in my family--there is no difference in the U.S. Med school classes are the same, post-graduate education is the same, etc. Only difference is the DOs also learn osteopathic manipulation, but most rarely use that in real life (a shame, IMHO).

 

My Dad headed up an osteopathic radiology residency program, and his residents often went on to do fellowships at leading allopathic hospitals, such as those associated with Harvard, Yale, etc.

 

The only difference I can imagine is that perhaps a DO program was willing to take a chance on her vs. an MD program. But Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine (where she attended) is one of the most competitive (and largest) osteopathic programs out there.

[quark]

Technically the mother could not choose the gene makeup of any of her children so I don't see a disconnect with that.

[...]I guess having a big family somehow swing the pendulum to can instead of should.

The mum mentioned honing in to her children's individual interest as soon as they have a specific interest. That would probably cut down on the number of subjects they took before college. I don't know what they took before college but in general removing music, world languages, literature, art and history as academic subjects would already free up a lot of time.

The CHSPE that the oldest Harding took is only testing english and math. You can take a look at the sample and let your son try it :)

CHSPE sample http://www.chspe.net...e_Questions.pdf

These are what I can find for Alabama High school graduation exam http://www.ptc.dcs.e...Practice_Qs.htm

 

I should have phrased my response more carefully. I agree that technically she cannot choose the gene makeup but the way she distances herself from being genetically similar in some way to her 10 kids (we are not talking about one or two but 10)...that just seemed peculiar to me. They are a very deeply religious family and that comes across in almost every line they write so I can understand why they think so but I can't help that skeptical part of me asking "c'mon, really?" :p

 

I homeschool the same way they do in some sense. We remove a lot of subjects that the majority of homeschoolers deem as a necessary part of the school day and focus on these removed subjects more from an interest/ unschooling approach so yes, I think what they are doing is completely possible. I'm also interested in how they define genius in their e-book. I don't separate genius from hard work but they seem to so it's interesting to me to see another family's definition of genius. I.e. they seem to indicate that their kids are not geniuses because they work hard, fail to pass certain exams and then go back and retake those exams with renewed zeal etc. I think one can be a genius and still fail (ETA: and still be motivated enough to go back and work at whatever the failure was; i.e. not all geniuses give up so easily) but I have a feeling that they don't seem to think that. Not saying one is right one is wrong, it's just interesting to me, that's all.

 

I've seen the CHSPE sample, thanks! :) I think mine, if he set his mind to it, could pass it now without prep. I don't see the need to just yet because we are fortunate enough to have a tutor/ online programs that can still challenge him. :)

[quark]

Quark, does the ebook provide details of HOW they make this happen? How they structure their kids days, what they require, how they get them the certain amount of classes by certain ages, etc?

 

To some extent, as in what curriculum was used for some subjects for some of the kids, how they emphasize daily math and daily writing then reading good books (much like what most of us do, I'm guessing), but not in step-by-step detail.

 

ETA: she does list some parenting/ homeschooling-themed books that she found very helpful/ inspiring.

[boscopup]

CHSPE sample http://www.chspe.net...e_Questions.pdf

These are what I can find for Alabama High school graduation exam http://www.ptc.dcs.e...Practice_Qs.htm

 

 

I don't know about the California exam, but the Alabama one was a joke when I took it. I know they've supposedly upped the level to that of *8th grade* since then. When I took it, my entire homeroom class started laughing during the test. The teacher had to tell us to stop laughing. There were questions such as: "Which of these is a triangle?" and "Which of these is a color?" My 8 year old could have passed that exam. The Alabama graduation exit exam is NOT what I would use as a benchmark of ability to handle college. :lol:

 

There is a reason why colleges use SAT/ACT scores and high school transcripts, NOT the exit exam. :)

[Dana]

There were questions such as: "Which of these is a triangle?" and "Which of these is a color?" My 8 year old could have passed that exam. The Alabama graduation exit exam is NOT what I would use as a benchmark of ability to handle college. :lol:

 

There is a reason why colleges use SAT/ACT scores and high school transcripts, NOT the exit exam. :)

 

 

I had to take a state test for certification to be a high school teacher.

The first question in the math section was given a printed ruler and a paperclip, how long was the paperclip?

My son should be able to pass it. I honestly was offended at having to take it.

 

Yeah... I feel good about homeschooling here.

[I.Dup.]

How does one counsel a 12 yr old on a major and career choice? I guess my 6th graders are way below avg in maturity. I have to help my 11 yr old (will be 12 in Nov) put sheets on her top bunk. Some days she gets dressed and forgets to brush her hair. She day dreams. She plays Barbies and American girl dolls. She plays dress-up. She hasn't hit puberty. One day she declares she is positive that she wants to be a meteorologist while the next she wants to be an author while the next she wants to be a fashion designer...... Any "guidance" I would give would be either my bias or my perception of her 12 yr old skills/interests (which are often not indicative of their adult selves. My kids have had major "mental explosions" in middle school that have drastically changed their abilities/interests.)

 

 

I hear you. My 11 yo certainly isn't ready to be sent off to college (and I wouldn't dream of sending any 12 yo off to live in a dorm!!). I was just addressing the general theory of "I would never tell my kids what to do with their lives"- at 11 or 17 that attitude confuses me, and I've seen it a lot around here. Of course we shouldn't order them to do a certain thing, but I see nothing wrong with giving them a lot of help and strong guidance. But what do I know, my oldest is my 11yo and I can't see her being firmly convinced in another 2 or 3 years what she will be.

[Arcadia]

To some extent, as in what curriculum was used for some subjects for some of the kids, how they emphasize daily math and daily writing then reading good books (much like what most of us do, I'm guessing), but not in step-by-step detail.

 

Quark, does the ebook provide details of HOW they make this happen? How they structure their kids days, what they require, how they get them the certain amount of classes by certain ages, etc?

 

 

The book review comments kind of imply Calvert program was what the mum used for her kids. The mum said her oldest daughter had to go to a tutoring center all of her undergrad years and her third daughter always studies and gets help from her classmates. The mum also said they homeschool because they believe in intelligent design and are staunch opponents of secular science classes teaching evolution exclusively.

http://healthy-family.org/college-by-12-review-harding-ebook/

[Barbara H]

How would a 12 year old get into college? Don't they need transcripts of high school courses? This still fascinates me, but I still don't understand it. Can we give our children an SAT at any age and that's all they need, as long as they get a good score on it? I don't get it.

 

The process is the same as it is for older students at that particular institution. Typically students submit a high school transcript and ACT or SAT scores as well as whatever else that particular school requires such as essays or additional test scores such as SAT subject tests. Maturity level is often scrutinized carefully and students are sometimes asked to do additional interviews with administrators. There are also some early entrance college programs that are primarily designed to allow high schools students to skip junior and senior year or complete it at the same times as the first two years of college.

 

Several people raised concerns about students living in the dorm, but that tends to be a nonissue. Most early college students either live at home with parents or are enrolled in special early college programs (such as Mary Baldwin's PEG program) where the dorms and support services are designed specifically for younger students. For students who begin in the 11-15 age span most treat college as a kind of high school. They go for classes and some campus clubs or activities. but they maintain a social life separate from college through regular teen activities like soccer, church youth group, music lessons, etc. Taking classes is a distinct activity from hanging around a frat house keg.

 

It may be easy to get a different idea with the buzz this topic gets in homeschool circles. but really early college students are pretty rare. It is very common for homeschoolers in high school to take some college classes, but middle school aged kids enrolled full time in college are quite uncommon. Families tend to choose this option when other options fail, not as a first choice.

[Arcadia]

Spam by Danar2amir reported

[8filltheheart]

 

 

The process is the same as it is for older students at that particular institution. Typically students submit a high school transcript and ACT or SAT scores as well as whatever else that particular school requires such as essays or additional test scores such as SAT subject tests. Maturity level is often scrutinized carefully and students are sometimes asked to do additional interviews with administrators. There are also some early entrance college programs that are primarily designed to allow high schools students to skip junior and senior year or complete it at the same times as the first two years of college.

 

Several people raised concerns about students living in the dorm, but that tends to be a nonissue. Most early college students either live at home with parents or are enrolled in special early college programs (such as Mary Baldwin's PEG program) where the dorms and support services are designed specifically for younger students. For students who begin in the 11-15 age span most treat college as a kind of high school. They go for classes and some campus clubs or activities. but they maintain a social life separate from college through regular teen activities like soccer, church youth group, music lessons, etc. Taking classes is a distinct activity from hanging around a frat house keg.

 

It may be easy to get a different idea with the buzz this topic gets in homeschool circles. but really early college students are pretty rare. It is very common for homeschoolers in high school to take some college classes, but middle school aged kids enrolled full time in college are quite uncommon. Families tend to choose this option when other options fail, not as a first choice.

 

 

I just wanted to highlight Barbara's post bc it is excellent. Her last couple of sentences are also spot on.

[mamajudy]

 

Not sure if anybody addressed this, but having DOs and MDs in my family--there is no difference in the U.S. Med school classes are the same, post-graduate education is the same, etc. Only difference is the DOs also learn osteopathic manipulation, but most rarely use that in real life (a shame, IMHO).

 

My Dad headed up an osteopathic radiology residency program, and his residents often went on to do fellowships at leading allopathic hospitals, such as those associated with Harvard, Yale, etc.

 

The only difference I can imagine is that perhaps a DO program was willing to take a chance on her vs. an MD program. But Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine (where she attended) is one of the most competitive (and largest) osteopathic programs out there.

 

 

Thank you for posting this. I haven't had time to post these last few days, or I would have pointed out the same.

[Nan in Mass]

 

 

...I was just addressing the general theory of "I would never tell my kids what to do with their lives"- at 11 or 17 that attitude confuses me, and I've seen it a lot around here. Of course we shouldn't order them to do a certain thing, but I see nothing wrong with giving them a lot of help and strong guidance. But what do I know, my oldest is my 11yo and I can't see her being firmly convinced in another 2 or 3 years what she will be.

 

 

We guide a lot, too, but what struck me about 8's extra bit, where she says she would rather not do career counseling for a younger child was exactly what you say here about your 11yo not being firmly convinced what she wants to be. It was one thing to tailor my children's education to their interests when they were younger. It would be another thing to eliminate things in order to streamline their education for a career they had picked when they were 11. (I am assuming streamlining was necessary for acceleration.)

 

I think probably the community college phase was a bit longer than usual? My youngest started classes in 10th grade, but in order to have his engineering transfer AA degree, he would require another year or year and a half beyond high school because he started with classes like drawing, and because he had to take intro chemistry, good classes for general education but not exactly in the two-year eng tran plan lol. If their children start cc classes (or the equivalent) at 12 and take 4 years to get through the first two years of college, then go full time in their major for the last two, I guess they could graduate at 18. I still don't believe them when they say they are just average, though. : ) And it sounds like they are taking full advantage of their family size. The family is big enough to have some weight against cultural norms like not going to school in the summer and big enough that they can create their own tiny micro environment within a college. I'm still really glad I'm not trying to do it, though. I would rather go a little slower and have time to add my own richness to elementary and middle school and the first half of high school rather than leave that to the college. Things changed pretty drastically when they began college classes. I liked having plenty of time to add in non-academic learning things, too, like crewing for Grampa on his boat and gymnastics all the way into high school. LOL Another thought - I can NOT see managing to get my sons through the 12-16 stage without a sport that involved almost daily 4 hour practices. They desperately needed that physical outlet. They had other things they were desperate to do, that would have prevented them from being willing to go to college at 12. These were major reasons why we chose not to send them to the public school, too. Interesting to think about, though...

 

Nan

[stripe]

The mum also said they homeschool because they believe in intelligent design and are staunch opponents of secular science classes teaching evolution exclusively.

http://healthy-famil...-harding-ebook/

 

 

I wonder how these colleges approach science. Two of them are at least moderately conservative.

 

"The foundation principle of Faulkner University is predicated on the conviction that the Bible is the inspired word of God."

http://ww2.faulkner....ss/handbook.asp

 

Huntingdon College is also a religious college

http://www.huntingdo...out.aspx?id=402

[JumpyTheFrog]

Another thought - I can NOT see managing to get my sons through the 12-16 stage without a sport that involved almost daily 4 hour practices. They desperately needed that physical outlet.

 

 

Can you tell us more about this? I have a 7 year old that I am almost certain will need that much exercise as a teen. He probably needs 2-3 hours per day now but it's hard to find ways for him to get it.

[I.Dup.]

 

The process is the same as it is for older students at that particular institution. Typically students submit a high school transcript and ACT or SAT scores

 

Okay, so that means that these families need to know by age 6 or 7 that they will be starting high school classes by age 8 and start administering high school level courses and preparing transcripts accordingly at that time? It isn't really something you can suddenly start at age 10 or 11? They need a full 4 years of "high school" transcripts? Does this work the same for even CC?

[Murphy101]

It depends on the cc.

 

Some require a transcript, some are based more in ACT or compass subject test scores. And all will work with a student if necessary outside of those parameters. For example, I'm fairly sure that our local CC would ignore the lack of transcript if a kid had a perfect ACT or SAT score.

[8filltheheart]

Okay, so that means that these families need to know by age 6 or 7 that they will be starting high school classes by age 8 and start administering high school level courses and preparing transcripts accordingly at that time? It isn't really something you can suddenly start at age 10 or 11? They need a full 4 years of "high school" transcripts? Does this work the same for even CC?

 

I'm pretty sure we discussed this in the other thread. First, there needs to be a distinction made between dual enrollment (sometimes referred to as concurrent enrollment) which takes place before high school graduation and admission for full enrollment which takes place after high school graduation.

 

First....dual enrollment/concurrent enrollment-- At CCs the student can typically go to the campus and take the Compass test and placement into eligible courses is based on the test scores. Some CCs will accept ACT or SAT scores in lieu of the Compass test. Some CCs restrict enrollment to those 16 and older with no exceptions. Some have no age restrictions.

 

Dual enrollment at universities--our experience is that dual enrolling students at universities actually have to submit higher qualifications than high school graduates. For example, one university where one of my students dual enrolled had to have a minimum SAT score of 1250 (only CR and M) whereas applying as a first time freshman only required a 940. Most universities restrict dual enrollment to jrs or srs or even only 2nd semester jrs up. Many times they state they have no exceptions. We have been able to persuade admissions to allow a 1st semester jr to dual enroll even though they were initially adamant that they would not permit it, but only after demonstrating that the student was beyond the level of courses offered at the CC level and that the university was the only available local option for the level of coursework. (ETA: it also not unusual for universities to limit the number of dual enrollment courses to 2 (plus required labs).)

 

As far as full-time enrollment---at CCs, it will vary by school. Some don't require anything beyond the Compass test. Some will want to see high school equivalent courses as meeting pre-reqs (if they don't have them, they can take the remedial coursework at the CC as the pre-req). Some programs have actual admission criteria (Allied Health programs, for example, have restricted admissions with minimum test scores and core courses). There is no single answer, but for the most part taking classes at the CC is typically restricted only by Compass scores and possibly age.

 

Full enrollment at university---some schools have ECE (early college experience) which allows students to enroll full-time during the jr or sr yr (in which case some of the course requirements are waved like 11th/12th grade English). The admission criteria (via test scores) are higher than for normal entering freshman and require letters of recommendation from a guidance counselor (or in the case of homeschooling, from the parent). There are also programs like Mary Baldwin's for young gifted students. Again, I think these programs have already been discussed or linked, but they are geared toward gifted students that are not thriving in standard educational environments.

 

The other approach, the one apparently being discussed by the family in the OP and as Barbara described, is full high school graduation with complete high school transcripts, test scores, etc.

 

FWIW, enrolling in some courses during high school at the local CC is not a difficult process. It is not unusual for homeschool students to graduate with 20-60 hrs of CC credit.

[Dmmetler]

I imagine you also might do some retroactive transcripting. A lot of people I know with accelerated kids are using high school level materials in elementary ages without the intent of necessarily calling it a high school class yet-but, if the DC decided that they really, really wanted to study this class at the college level next, could go back and document said study, the books used, labs done, tests taken etc.

[Nan in Mass]

Can you tell us more about this? I have a 7 year old that I am almost certain will need that much exercise as a teen. He probably needs 2-3 hours per day now but it's hard to find ways for him to get it.

 

For a rather high price, a good gymnastics team will gladly take your teenager and work him hard for 4 hours almost every day. Swim teams seem to provide a similar amount of excersize but it the practices may be before school rather than evenings. My impression is that that is not cheap either. You an check out your town's soccer program. When that is in season, it seems to involve several hours of running around each day, judging by my nieces. I suppose the cheapest option would be to find your teen an afternoon job that involves working hard physically.

 

Nan

[Jane in NC]

While CCs in my state have "open enrollment" policies, they do have certain requirements that applicants must meet, the first being a high school diploma or a GED. High school students may take dual (or concurrent) enrollment classes (each CC seems to have some variation on general policy) provided that students are at least 16.

 

So I think here parents would have to graduate their kids early. Even then, I am wondering if there are any liability issues for parents or institutions? I remember a parent who tried unsuccessfully to enroll her then fourteen or fifteen year old at one of the local CCs a few years back. Now that many of the CCs in the state have early college programs, perhaps the liability issue is handled differently.

 

Mary Baldwin's Early College program has a long history in working with gifted youth. This might be one route to consider if you have an exceptionally talented girl.

 

I will repeat myself on one aspect of this issue: Dual enrollment/AP is probably the new normal but it is the rare student who can take the plunge to do college level work across all of the disciplines at an early age. We have known musically gifted students who have outgrown their local music teacher and thus began lessons and theory work with college professors. We have known high school students who outgrew the mathematical offerings at their high school. But how many teens have the entire package: writing skills, foreign language proficiency, mathematical skills, science exposure, etc. at an early age?

I think one reason many folks here express skepticism, at least for their own family, is that graduating kids from high school by 12 seems anti-TWTM. How do we express this in terms of the classical trivium? Are they doing the rhetoric stage at university, having compressed grammar + logic into the first six years? Or is it compressing logic + grammar + rhetoric into six years? Is it skipping one of the stages?

[shawthorne44]

I've been thinking about this some more. Their kids might very well have started out with a normal IQ. We know that IQ isn't the one-number-for-life that people think it is. Math, for example, if you work hard at it, and work lots of practice problems, you will appear math-smart. If your average kid worked hard on their academics, I think they could do college at 12.

[momma2three]

I think the primary difference is people who love this idea and people who hate it is between those who see education as a journey, v. those who see it as a destination. Personally, I can't understand wanting to specialize so young, and think that even if a child is accelerated there is soooooo much that they can explore and learn before they have to go off to college and start thinking about a job. But I know that other people look at it the opposite way: why would anyone want to waste time on things they don't really need for life?

 

I think it's just two very different core educational philosophies, and never the twain shall meet. I personally would not under any circumstances encourage or probably even let (never say never) my kids go to college before they were 18. I'd like them to go to a solid, residential liberal arts or science based college, where they spend 4 years living on campus with peers and working with professors as adults.

[8filltheheart]

I've been thinking about this some more. Their kids might very well have started out with a normal IQ. We know that IQ isn't the one-number-for-life that people think it is. Math, for example, if you work hard at it, and work lots of practice problems, you will appear math-smart. If your average kid worked hard on their academics, I think they could do college at 12.

 

 

Depends on what they want to do. I have strong math students. At 12, not one of them was doing the math required for a freshman level engineer (cal 1). So, if you are talking about majors that only require low levels of math, then maybe. But, if you are talking about degrees that require higher level maths for the pre-reqs for "in major" courses, it is going to be a very slim percentage of children that are capable of that level of math at a young age. So, that alone will limit the "what" a student could pursue as a career.

 

FWIW, my 17 yos ds has already completed all the math required for a chemical engineering degree (the same courses his older brother took earning his chemE). But at 12, he was only in either geo or alg 2. He was not ready for cal until 10th grade. And none of his siblings could have replicated his path. Mental development, solid mathematical foundation both take time.

[readinmom]

It would be interesting to revisit this in 10-15 years and see if the children choose to educate their own this way.

[Murphy101]

Umm. I view education as a journey. :/

 

Again. That attitude comes off as very...

 

superior and condescending.

 

I simply don't think the map is as rigid as some seem to think and I don't think there is a speed requirement on its roads.

 

And I think most people have some idea of where they want to go on their journey. Most would consider it a huge luxury and rather unreasonable to just get in the car and wander the roads in hopes of just happening to arrive where you want to be without any thought of planning what routes to take to get there.

 

 

[momma2three]

Umm. I view education as a journey. :/

 

Again. That attitude comes off as very...

 

superior and condescending.

 

I simply don't think the map is as rigid as some seem to think and I don't think there is a speed requirement on its roads.

 

And I think most people have some idea of where they want to go on their journey. Most would consider it a huge luxury and rather unreasonable to just get in the car and wander the roads in hopes of just happening to arrive where you want to be without any thought of planning what routes to take to get there.

 

But I think that's the "luxury" of childhood, and I personally don't really see any purpose in rushing through the journey, but I see many downsides. It's just my opinion, and I know that other people feel differently and their opinions are valid too. I don't mean to be condescending, I'm just sharing my opinion.

[8filltheheart]

 

And I think most people have some idea of where they want to go on their journey. Most would consider it a huge luxury and rather unreasonable to just get in the car and wander the roads in hopes of just happening to arrive where you want to be without any thought of planning what routes to take to get there.

 

Interesting, Martha, but this quote of yours is exactly how I perceive the idea of sending a 12 yr old to college. I see middle and high school as preparing and planning for the trip and providing the skills for driving the car and navigating the route. Whereas sending a child to college at 12 is unreasonably putting the child in the driver seat and telling them to drive to location X when they don't know how to drive and expecting them to learn to drive, navigate, and know what destination X is without the foundation to do so or fully understanding what X really means long-term.

 

[Χά�ων]

Can you tell us more about this? I have a 7 year old that I am almost certain will need that much exercise as a teen. He probably needs 2-3 hours per day now but it's hard to find ways for him to get it.

 

Do you have an ice rink near you? Start him in figure skating. Most rinks have daytime hours that are cheap. The standard is 2 hours but I have seen 4 hour blocks that cost $5. There are kids at the rink who are homeschooled because they skate. it is an intense sport.

I gave up and just joined a gym that offers lots of classes. People think I am nuts because he does so much physically. What they do not understand is that I am just along for the ride. He begs for it.

[Murphy101]

I can see that. My only issue is I don't see an arbitrary age or timeline to it. It takes my dh longer to get himself loaded in our van for a trip to Walmart than it takes me to load all 10 kids and be waiting in the van for him. He isn't more prepared than me bc he took longer. I'm not some genius kid-whisper guru bc i do it faster. We're just different people going in the same direction in our own manner.

 

 

Interesting, Martha, but this quote of yours is exactly how I perceive the idea of sending a 12 yr old to college. I see middle and high school as preparing and planning for the trip and providing the skills for driving the car and navigating the route. Whereas sending a child to college at 12 is unreasonably putting the child in the driver seat and telling them to drive to location X when they don't know how to drive and expecting them to learn to drive, navigate, and know what destination X is without the foundation to do so or fully understanding what X really means long-term.

[shawthorne44]

I think the primary difference is people who love this idea and people who hate it is between those who see education as a journey, v. those who see it as a destination. Personally, I can't understand wanting to specialize so young, and think that even if a child is accelerated there is soooooo much that they can explore and learn before they have to go off to college and start thinking about a job. But I know that other people look at it the opposite way: why would anyone want to waste time on things they don't really need for life?

 

I think it's just two very different core educational philosophies, and never the twain shall meet. I personally would not under any circumstances encourage or probably even let (never say never) my kids go to college before they were 18. I'd like them to go to a solid, residential liberal arts or science based college, where they spend 4 years living on campus with peers and working with professors as adults.

 

I, too, see it as a journey. I just see college as where it gets interesting. If my child started college at 12 (living at home, there is still many choices), and then took 8 years to finish (because so many courses were audited). I would OK with that.