So what does it take to move to another country?

[Ginger]

Reading about others desires to move to another country, prompted some questions about how you actually go about doing that. I often tell myself that I'd love to move to another country, like one of our pilgrims, to take my children away from this culture and start fresh somewhere else.

 

But are you able to just up and move to another country---aren't their legalities to consider? Canada for example--can anyone just move there? Do you not have to have a green card?

 

Something so drastic always sound enticing, but I doubt I'd ever go through with it...too many family members/connections here. But I'd like to know how to go about doing it if it ever was a viable option.

 

Ginger

[pqr]

Ginger,

 

If you are talking about living overseas for a few years in conjunction with a job then it can be a wonderful experience. Your children will have the opportunity to learn about other cultures, in many cases learn another language and come away far better people.

 

Companies are always looking for people who will live overseas and provided you are allowed to homeschool, in the nation you go to, the company may love it as they then are not responsible for the exhorbitant fees International Schools often charge. If you take this route ensure that you get adequate home leave and some sort of mail service, as in many nations it is mail is expensive and often not reliable.

 

If you are talking about emigration, one word Don't!

 

I emmigrated to the States when I was younger and though I have since spent over 11 of the intervening 29 years overseas, I have never regretted the move to the States and nowhere else will ever be home. Despite all the mealy-mouthed whining we hear about problems in the States there is no country like it in the world.

 

In much of Europe you have to report to the police station and give them your new address every time you move. This is not for registered sexual predators, but for honest law abiding citizens. Socialized medicine means a wait of anywhere up to a year for non-emergency operations. If you make a comment that is deemed offensive you can actually be charged with Xenophobia. Home schooling? Well you better be in the right nation and it better not be Germany.

 

In Africa... well having spent many years there I do not have the time to list the litany of reasons why it would belie reason to permanently move one's family there.

 

Asia.... I love it, but despite the wonderful cultures and fascinating history, it was not and never will be home. The truth is, (and before people disagree I have spent years in Asia so know of what I speak) you will never be accepted. You will always be the foreigner and there will always be a boundary.

 

Australia, New Zealand... I understand that they are wonderful places, but I would ask why would you move there? Are they that much different to justify a move?

 

South America... I know nothing about it, but 10 minutes reading the news should be enough to dissuade you.

 

Canada.... why bother? The culture is similar, I understand the taxes are higher, and you need to deal with socialized medicine.

 

People all around the world are begging to get into the United States, why would you permanently leave? We have our problems, but there is always a place you can go and be around like minded people. Liberal or conservative you can find an enclave of people who think and behave like you.

 

I have met Americans who have left the country, given up their citizenship and become something else. Without exception they regret it. On the other hand I have met Amerivcans who have followed a job overseas and spent decades outside their nation, they frequently enjoy it. The difference.... the mindset. Move overseas for the experience, but never with any sort of flippant or petulant idea of emmigrating, always plan to go home.

 

 

:patriot::patriot:

 

I was not intending to be jingoistic here, but I will be. I have lived in, or visited, 69 countries and while I truly love some of them, especially the one I am currently in, the United States is still the greatest nation on Earth. We have freedoms undreamed of in most places. For the most part, we go to sleep without fear. I know that my children will not go hungry and that there is a medical system that will, in the vast majority of cases provide for them. Taxes while high still allow me too provide for my family. I can say and think what I want! Tens of thousands have given their very lives to preserve these freedoms and I will never forsake my land.

[AmyB]

I highly disagree with that last post. If you go into another country with a chip on your shoulder, or thinking that the USA is best, you cut off your opportunity to learn. People all over the world respond to kindness.

 

Socialized medicine is fantastic. The American system is lousy and expensive and wasteful. Doctors there always choose the most expensive option. If you think it is great, just watch someone in your family die, and watch the doctors rub their hands with greed that last month. I wish my father had been with me while he died. He would have got much better care here... and we are in a country that is relatively poor compared to the USA.

 

For the OP, it is easy enough to find a contract job in another country for a few months. I wouldn't stay in another country for more than a year, because you begin to get tired of it, and the thrill of sightseeing wears off. We are filling out the papers for Georgia right now. The Georgian script is curvy and beautiful. I feel like I am filling out something very important. Our unofficial headquarters is in London, so whereever we go, we stop off there for a couple weeks to do the paperwork that we can't do in more provincial areas. If you live near a big city with embassies, you should be able to do all the paperwork at home. It makes things much easier.

[8filltheheart]

Usually the first thing that is required is employment. Most countries won't give you a visa for more than a few weeks without have a job.

 

Honestly, I agree with a lot of what pgr wrote. All countries have their problems and the USA is the greatest country in the world. I didn't move overseas to get away from the USA. We went there b/c that is where dh's job took him. It was both a very difficult experience (had to learn a new language, relearn basic skills like how to grocery shop, cook, etc. ) and an extremely wonderful one (saw incredible new places, met kind people, and learned a new culture)

 

I am glad we went and I am also glad to be home.

 

Just so you know.....when you live as an ex-pat, you still have to pay US federal taxes in addition to the taxes of whatever country you are in. You may only vote for president. You are not a legal resident of any state. And it is usually a very expensive proposition. It can also take a couple of months to get all the visas completed. You will probably need to be fingerprinted and have background checks done, etc before the issuing country will approve your visa.

 

You do have to report your every move in many countries. The quality of health care can be dismal (I came home and delivered my dd here. There was no way I was having her there. It was a good thing, too, b/c she was born with an undetected congenital heart defect). You have to abide by their laws. So, if you went to Germany, you could be arrested for homeschooling.

 

The flip side is, you learn how every country's news is totally propagandized, including the US. It is amazing to here the information being reported outside the country and compare it to what is being reported inside. It gives you unique insights that others that haven't lived outside the country can't really appreciate.

[threetreasurs]

Living overseas as a kid, I feel that the biggest lesson I learned is that people are people no matter where you go. Each culture has its good and bad points and each society has good kind people and then not so good, not so kind, even downright bad people.

[Mama Lynx]

Living overseas as a kid, I feel that the biggest lesson I learned is that people are people no matter where you go. Each culture has its good and bad points and each society has good kind people and then not so good, not so kind, even downright bad people.

 

Very true.

 

And each system of government has upsides and downsides, and you have to choose which of those upsides are worth it to you.

[Snickerdoodle]

Are you willing to live far from family and friends with the possibility of not seeing them for long stretches of time?

 

Are you willing to start over in a completely foreign place with no support, no friends? Are you willing to be the outsider or spend years trying to "break in" to the social scene?

 

Are you willing to pay international shipping and extra Value Added Tax for homeschooling supplies thus tripling the cost of everything?

 

Are you willing to homeschool in a place where there are potentially no other homeschoolers?

 

Are you willing to live with a markedly less standard of living? (i.e. shops not being open as frequently, not having an oven or a tiny, tiny fridge, not having most of the foods you are used to, tiny apartments, absolutely NO customer service, people not helping because you don't speak the language, etc....)

 

 

We have been living abroad for several years and while there have been many positive and wonderful things about doing so, it isn't all sunshine and roses either. It is definitely something you should consider with your eyes wide open.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

Reading about others desires to move to another country, prompted some questions about how you actually go about doing that. I often tell myself that I'd love to move to another country, like one of our pilgrims, to take my children away from this culture and start fresh somewhere else.

 

But are you able to just up and move to another country---aren't their legalities to consider? Canada for example--can anyone just move there? Do you not have to have a green card?

 

Something so drastic always sound enticing, but I doubt I'd ever go through with it...too many family members/connections here. But I'd like to know how to go about doing it if it ever was a viable option.

 

Ginger

 

 

While I love my country (the USA) and am so proud to be an American, and hope to live there again someday, I truly enjoy what I'm learning from another culture.

 

Being an American is a unique thing. I didn't know that until I moved here and saw the hassle a lot of citizens of other countries go through to travel. It never occured to me that it would be difficult to get into a country. As Americans, we generally don't have to deal with a lot of visa issues like some do. I don't know why that is, but, it's been the experience I've had.

 

The biggest thing we had to do to get ready to move here was to give up the closeness of our family and friends as well as all that is familiar. It was difficult at first to deal with the language barrier, but, you learn it so quickly here because you have to!

 

We are currently here on a tourist visa. It needs to be renewed every 90 days. At first, we could renew the visa in country every 180 days and leave the country each alternate time, but, now they are deciding to uphold a law noone knew was on the books by only renewing in country once and then we have to leave every 90 days for 2 nights and that renews it for us. We go to Mexico--sounds more romantic than it is! It's a hassle, but, it is what it is.

Right now a religious worker's visa is too risky here and getting residency is really expensive for a family of 5 when we are only here for about another 18 months or so (I think!).

 

The biggest thing to overcome for us has been the mindset of the people here. It's so different from what we're used to. They have such a linear thought process! It can be frustrating. But, we are in their country, and we are in their culture, so we need to adapt!

 

It's been a great experience for our dc and our family. I love what we are able to experience here. I love that we are meeting people from all over the world and have friends here from all over. My dc are getting such a world vision and a global vision that I just love it. They are experiencing something that they wouldn't have gotten in our small hometown in the US.

 

There are downsides, but, I don't dwell on them that much because this is where we live. It's home now. I don't want to spend all my time wishing I were somewhere else.

[Anne/Ankara]

We're in the middle of a move to Turkey, for my dh's work, and are very excited about it-- but it will probably only be for 4-6 years, so it is not indefinite. There certainly will be challenges, but we are somewhat familiar with the culture, so that shouldn't be too much of a problem. And we're moving to a very nice place.

 

There is a lot of paperwork: entry visa, work permits, resident permits, since I am not a citizen of Turkey, and will work there, but it is worth it! The children will attend an International School and truly get a global education.

 

Our roots are here in the US and we plan to return, but this chapter of life will be a grand adventure for all of us!

[Tammy]

I will have to agree with the OP about Canada....I haven't heard much good about socialized medicine in Canada.....but that is just from reading these boards!

[Ellie]

:patriot:

 

Visiting other countries would be a great thing. Living somewhere else permanently...I don't think so. You made some very good points.

[Riverfront Headmistress]

I would like to live abroad, but would not be willing to give up my citizenship to do so. Each time my dh is up for orders, we try to move outside the US, but have failed to do so yet (10 years) - we'll be trying again in another 7 months to move overseas.

 

One thing that we do in our home to teach our kids to think globally is host exchange students. So far we've welcomed S. Korea, Finland, and France - with another Finnish girl arriving Wednesday. In addition, I'm a volunteer for the FES organization and this keeps me involved with even more countries. This upcoming school year we'll have Kuwait, Lebanon, Austria, Germany, Chile, China, Japan, S. Korea, Mexixo, Kazakstan, Thailand, Yemen, Norway, Sweden, Finland - just to name a few! My kids (and myself) love this experience. The good, bad, and ugly.

 

The FES always have a running joke that Americans are overweight, lazy, and dumb - BUT, they would do anything to study and live here. America has its problems, but we are unique. Our language is important, our dollar (um, is coming back, haha), and our people know how to come together.

[OnTheBrink]

Doctors there always choose the most expensive option.

 

Not quite true. Maybe it seemed that way in your situation, (and, maybe some doctors do) and I'm sorry for the loss of your father, but I can attest that doctors in the US don't always choose the most expensive option.

[Peek a Boo]

that is a very negative post -

I highly disagree with that last post. If you go into another country with a chip on your shoulder, or thinking that the USA is best, you cut off your opportunity to learn. People all over the world respond to kindness.

 

Socialized medicine is fantastic. The American system is lousy and expensive and wasteful.

 

I've had MORE issues w/ healthcare when our kids were on the gvt dole vs private --or even NO-- insurance.

honestly, there are plenty of stories about BOTH systems --both positive and negative. You can say the socialized medicine is "fantastic" and still be wrong. To rail against the American system is just as negative as pgr's post --and if you think that negativity is wrong, then so is YOUR post.

 

I wouldn't stay in another country for more than a year, because you begin to get tired of it, and the thrill of sightseeing wears off.

 

ok, to ME, this smacks of "you cut off your opportunity to learn." There ARE people who move to other countries and sincerely enjoy the people there and stay not because of a selfish sightseeing tour but they genuinely LIKE the culture. I don't think I'd leave the US, but I also know there are people who don't need to live in the US to be happy

[AmyB]

11th commandment: thou shalt not respond to a nasty poster for fear of getting thy head ripped off. Don't worry. Rule learnt.

 

This Internet stuff is new to me. We just got our first computer. I'll use it for business from now on since there is clearly no point in being here. Neither of your points is worth a response.

 

I was responding emotionally to the second poster. Please excuse me Peek a Book. Posts like that do bring up emotions. She has had a culturally rich life (full of Tommy Tinkers, I think), but all she can do is complain.

 

Please note that a national health care system is not the same as military medicine or the dole. Many believe that it is immoral to take advantage of someone financially when they are ill. This sentiment is voiced all the time by people in the health care system in countries other than the USA.

[Greta]

pgr, I suppose you'll dismiss this as "mealy-mouthed whining" but I think it's perfectly valid to point out some areas in which the US could be doing better than we are. I am all in favor of being grateful for what we have. That is wise, and it is the way to be truly happy in life too. So please don't think I'm making light of that. But I, along with many others, also feel that we could be doing better, and we shouldn't be patting ourselves on the back to the exclusion of addressing our problems.

 

To me, it's like this. Imagine you're at the mall and there's a group of rowdy kids acting up and making trouble. Maybe you roll your eyes, declare it's a shame, and go on with your day. But if you discover one of those kids is your own child, do you just walk on? Heck no, you're hopping mad and you take action to stop it. You expect more of your own child. Well that's exactly the way I feel about my country -- this is my country and by God I expect better behavior from it!

 

I can love my country and still point out the negatives, and work to change them.

 

And with regards to the "medical system" that you feel will always be there, I'd really like to know what you're talking about. I've lived in the US my while life, 34 years, and the only medical "system" I've ever been aware of is the "every man for himself!" system which completely and utterly fails a huge chunk of the population. I'm lucky enough to be able to afford health care right now. I pray that will always be the case. But I also realize it may not be.

[Peek a Boo]

11th commandment: thou shalt not respond to a nasty poster for fear of getting thy head ripped off. Don't worry. Rule learnt.

 

This Internet stuff is new to me. We just got our first computer. I'll use it for business from now on since there is clearly no point in being here. Neither of your points is worth a response.

 

I was responding emotionally to the second poster. Please excuse me Peek a Book. Posts like that do bring up emotions. She has had a culturally rich life (full of Tommy Tinkers, I think), but all she can do is complain.

 

Please note that a national health care system is not the same as military medicine or the dole. Many believe that it is immoral to take advantage of someone financially when they are ill. This sentiment is voiced all the time by people in the health care system in countries other than the USA.

 

don't worry -- no hard feelings here :)

 

This *is* a discussion board --emotion and all.

If you don't see a point in actually defending and discussing your opinion, and honestly critiquing another's post, then you're right: there's likely no point in you being here.

 

The actual board rules are here:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/faq.php

 

there's not an 11th commandment, but there is one at the very top ;)

 

Having someone critique your post isn't necessarily akin to "getting your head ripped off." I'm sure it can feel like that to someone new to discussion forums, so feel free to take some rhino skin and apply it liberally. It has served me well.

 

It sure didn't appear *to me* like pqr was COMPLAINING --she seemed pretty darn happy about what she has learned about America from where I sit.

 

and do trust me when i say that i am well aware of the differences in socialized, military, gvt, and private medicine/ healthcare plans.

 

I'm sure we CAN agree that having someone take advantage of ANYONE --ill or not-- is immoral. It is also immoral to forcibly take money from one person and distribute it to another.

 

There is a strong debate about where entitlements and rights begin and end. However, America was founded by people who would rather risk a complete failure to be completely free. I'll take the risk of complete failure over the socialized trappings of a well-furnished cage. Unfortunately, America is moving more and more to resemble a well-furnished cage, so i just might end up being one of those who decides to move eventually. ;)

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

11th commandment: thou shalt not respond to a nasty poster for fear of getting thy head ripped off. Don't worry. Rule learnt.

 

This Internet stuff is new to me. We just got our first computer. I'll use it for business from now on since there is clearly no point in being here. Neither of your points is worth a response.

 

I was responding emotionally to the second poster. Please excuse me Peek a Book. Posts like that do bring up emotions. She has had a culturally rich life (full of Tommy Tinkers, I think), but all she can do is complain.

 

Please note that a national health care system is not the same as military medicine or the dole. Many believe that it is immoral to take advantage of someone financially when they are ill. This sentiment is voiced all the time by people in the health care system in countries other than the USA.

 

Since you claim to be new to the internet and this board in particular, keep in mind... the 12th Commandment is not to make assumptions about posters you don't know (and then insult them based on the assumption). Possibly followed by Number 13 which would be don't pout after being contradicted or disagreed with. Discuss or politely drop out of the conversation.

 

 

[Peek a Boo]

And with regards to the "medical system" that you feel will always be there, I'd really like to know what you're talking about. I've lived in the US my while life, 34 years, and the only medical "system" I've ever been aware of is the "every man for himself!" system which completely and utterly fails a huge chunk of the population. I'm lucky enough to be able to afford health care right now. I pray that will always be the case. But I also realize it may not be.

 

hm. I'll be 34 next month, and have experienced Medicaid, Medicare [w/ older family members], private insurance, and no insurance. Having been in situations where we couldn't afford private insurance and didn't qualify for anything else, i have been pleased w/ the programs out there that DO help people. I don't have to relegate my thinking of my situation to luck or prayer --plenty of people in America have and offer choices to people of all walks of life. The resources available are phenomenal. Not always easy, but I am amazed every time I hear about Yet Another Way someone has come up w/ to help their fellow citizens.

 

There is certainly a feeling in America of "every man for himself" [see my post above], but I see that as something that tends to make America stronger. And as noted, there are also quite a few organizations that want to step in for those who can't make it.

[clwcain]

Unfortunately, America is moving more and more to resemble a well-furnished cage, so i just might end up being one of those who decides to move eventually. ;)

 

This is actually what motivates my wife and I to seriously consider emigration. If I'm going to live in a socialist country, there are a few I'd prefer, just for the scenery and weather, ceteris paribus.

 

So long as there's a glimmer of hope that, even at the price of blood, the Tree of Liberty can be brought back to full flower, I'll probably stick it out here.

 

Blood is powerful stuff...the seed of the Church and the water of Liberty...hmm...much to think on.

 

Thanks to the OP. Perhaps once I've had a chance to reflect, I'll share my experiences and thoughts on expatriation/emigration.

[Greta]

You're right, Peek, I shouldn't dismiss Medicaid and Medicare so easily. Those are great programs and I am so glad that there are systems in place that help those members of society who are the worst off. But it seems that the way the system is set up, so many deserving people are being left out. There seems to be a lot of "working poor" who make *just* enough money that they don't qualify for aid, but not enough money to provide for their families. That really saddens me.

 

Also, I didn't mean to imply I am relying on just luck and prayer to make sure my family is okay. My hubby has a good job, and he worked very hard to get it. But sometimes even very qualified and hard-working people do lose their jobs. So I think "luck" does play a role!

[Greta]

There is certainly a feeling in America of "every man for himself" [see my post above], but I see that as something that tends to make America stronger.

 

Oh, but on that point, I think we'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree. I believe the benefits of cooperation outweigh those of competition.

 

:001_smile:

[Peek a Boo]

You're right, Peek, I shouldn't dismiss Medicaid and Medicare so easily. Those are great programs and I am so glad that there are systems in place that help those members of society who are the worst off. But it seems that the way the system is set up, so many deserving people are being left out. There seems to be a lot of "working poor" who make *just* enough money that they don't qualify for aid, but not enough money to provide for their families. That really saddens me.

 

Also, I didn't mean to imply I am relying on just luck and prayer to make sure my family is okay. My hubby has a good job, and he worked very hard to get it. But sometimes even very qualified and hard-working people do lose their jobs. So I think "luck" does play a role!

 

well, i wasn't even talking just about Medicaid and Medicare --there are a lot of other private organizations that try to offer medical programs/services too on a very appropriate sliding scale. Those don't get much publicity tho. it seems we tend to automatically think in extremes, and there's a lot of gray area in between.....

 

I do agree that we CAN do better w/ what we have. I think one of those things is to help facilitate/ those organizations w/ some advertising and tax cuts :D ;)

 

and yeah, i know you aren't living on luck and prayer --it was just a nice opposite to my point, lol.

[Peek a Boo]

Oh, but on that point, I think we'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree. I believe the benefits of cooperation outweigh those of competition.

 

:001_smile:

 

hee hee-- in my own self-interest, it serves ME to have a thriving, healthy society. So "every man for himself" does not necessarily negate cooperation ;)

[Peek a Boo]

Blood is powerful stuff...the seed of the Church and the water of Liberty...hmm...much to think on.

 

:iagree:

[sdWTMer]

Oh, but on that point, I think we'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree. I believe the benefits of cooperation outweigh those of competition.

 

:001_smile:

 

Oooh, agree to disagree here, I think that if we took out the employer paid insurance then the prices for healthcare would go down because there would be true competition with the providers.

[clwcain]

Oooh, agree to disagree here, I think that if we took out the employer paid insurance then the prices for healthcare would go down because there would be true competition with the providers.

 

Remove interstate barriers to competition among health insurance plans, and we'll really get going! :D

[Laura Corin]

It really depends on the country. Typically you need a work visa to move to a particular country, which can be applied for when you have already obtained a job there, so the company can sponsor you.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[pqr]

pgr, I suppose you'll dismiss this as "mealy-mouthed whining" but I think it's perfectly valid to point out some areas in which the US could be doing better than we are.

 

Greta Lynne,

 

I am afraid I was not as precise as I like to be. In no way would I call complaining about problems "mealey-mouthed", after all are we not all complaining about our system of education when we choose to home school. I am vocal and vociferious in my complaints about certain aspects of life in the States.

 

When I made the comment about "mealey mouthed whining" I was refering to those who make comments such as "It is so much better overseas, why can we not be more like XXXX?" The truth is that there are pitifully few nations whose standard of living in any way approaches that of the United States and of those many would now be speaking German were it not for the United States.

 

As for AmyB,

 

Congradulations on Georgia, it is a wonderful country and there is enough there to occupy you there for far more than your self appointed year. T'Bilisi is a wonderful city, but the mountains hold the real attraction.

 

I do not, however, understand where you get the idea that socialized medicine is "fantastic".

 

In Britain which has socialized health care... "Over the past year 45,000 Britons have travelled abroad for dental treatment. 78 % of people in Britain, are unable to find an NHS dentist willing to carry out bridge work and most could not afford to pay for treatment at a private practice.

A survey of 5,000 patients and 750 dentists revealed that Britain is now so woefully short of state-funded dentists that one in 20 people say they have resorted to some style of DIY dentistry — a handful agonisingly pulling out their own teeth with pliers."

 

DIY dental work because socialized medicine has failed is "fantastic"???

 

Additionally hundreds die because they have to wait months for appointments for their ills. Google it, I am not kidding.

 

I fail to see how homeschoolers, of all people, can grasp onto the concept of socialized medicine. Have we not all fled from socialized education? My children's education and their health are two of my highest priorities. Why would I not trust the government with the former but embrace it for the latter?

[sdWTMer]

Absolutely!

[Mabelen]

Reading about others desires to move to another country, prompted some questions about how you actually go about doing that. I often tell myself that I'd love to move to another country, like one of our pilgrims, to take my children away from this culture and start fresh somewhere else.

 

But are you able to just up and move to another country---aren't their legalities to consider? Canada for example--can anyone just move there? Do you not have to have a green card?

 

Something so drastic always sound enticing, but I doubt I'd ever go through with it...too many family members/connections here. But I'd like to know how to go about doing it if it ever was a viable option.

 

Ginger

 

 

I have lived in the UK and now in the USA. I initially travelled to the UK to work as an au pair after college, Spain was still not a full member of the European Market, so I needed a visa and register with the Police.

 

We moved to the USA because my dh's company transferred him here, they did all the paper work, so I didn't have to deal with any of that personally, but it was a lot of work and money.

 

Any country will have their own legal requirements for people who come to work there. First you will have to meet their requirements, then jump through the burocratic hoops.

[Happy]

I loved living in Belgium. I never wanted to stay permanantly......but several years is wonderful.

 

For our family, living overseas required a job in that country (through our American employer.) Dh had to qualify for a work permit, we all had to pass health and background checks.

 

Being away from family is hard. Many of them came to visit us which was fun. We had wonderful connections to a church and made life long friends there.

 

I would move to another country in a heartbeat, especially in Europe (despite the soft dollar.) Three or four years gets you deep into a culture and language...and is so very addicting.

[Happy]

Oooh, agree to disagree here, I think that if we took out the employer paid insurance then the prices for healthcare would go down because there would be true competition with the providers.

 

Absolutely!

 

Then, have everyone write a check for taxes to the IRS with every pay check instead of withholding. We'd have tax reform in a very short time.

 

Life would be much, much better. :D

[Mrs Mungo]

We lived in Germany for almost five years but we are military and that's a whole other animal.

 

I would highly recommend trying out a new location before deciding to move there permanently.

 

You might check out this link:

http://www.usajobs.gov/infocenter/ working for the federal government or an NGO overseas is one way to try out living overseas.

[tibbyl]

Why do you believe that all homeschoolers should hold your opinion regarding socialized medicine? There are those among us who have carefully weighed the options and reached a different conclusion from yours.

[Peek a Boo]

Why do you believe that all homeschoolers should hold your opinion regarding socialized medicine? There are those among us who have carefully weighed the options and reached a different conclusion from yours.

 

 

well, I think she already stated why she believes that:

 

I fail to see how homeschoolers, of all people, can grasp onto the concept of socialized medicine. Have we not all fled from socialized education? My children's education and their health are two of my highest priorities. Why would I not trust the government with the former but embrace it for the latter?

 

so i guess in order to explain to her why your opinion would differ you might want to start by clarifying/ answering the questions she already asked ;)

 

I do understand that some homeschool for different reasons. not everyone is homeschooling because of a distrust of gvt. some homeschool cuz they simply LIKE being w/ their kids. or a plethora of other reasons. But I think it is always profitable to explain to another your own POV. It helps break down stereotypes :)

[orangeblossom]

We moved from Canada to the US...similar Countries, but believe it or not, there are many differences between the two. We love it in the US but have no plans to become citizens. As for the health care discussions, there are positives and negatives to both sides.

We've also looked into moving to Europe. You can't just pick up and move, there's always immigration requirements (having a job being one of them - one of you would have have a job secured in the country first, unless you have X amount of money at your disposal).

We moved away from all of our family and friends, to a city where we knew only one person. I have to tell you, I've made better friends here than I ever had at home.

[PariSarah]

. . . my son and I are better for it. (Dh had already lived there.)

 

I met a lot of people there, though, that were there to "find themselves" or to "experience Paris," and they always struck me as having gone into it bass ackwards.

 

The things that made our experience so rewarding:

 

* A stable job, with its attendant help navigating through the bureaucracy.

* A community of English speakers, just to give my ears a break from time to time.

* A strong and exciting church community.

* Love for the country we were in. (We only vacationed outside of France once, our whole time there, not counting three conferences we went on through dh's work.)

 

Also, we weren't particularly attached to the American community in Paris, but I'm sure it made our lives easier. There was an anglophone library, seven churches, a synagogue, yadda yadda yadda.

 

I disagree that you get tired of a place after a year. You're just getting your feet under you after nine months!! After three incredibly full years, we still had a long, long list of things we never got to do--places we never got to, experiences we missed, foods we still hadn't tried, etc.

 

I doubt I would ever up and move just for the sake of moving. But when employment took us Paris, it was indeed a terrific opportunity. And if we ever got jobs there again, we'd go yesterday.

[Happy]

. . . my son and I are better for it. (Dh had already lived there.)

 

I met a lot of people there, though, that were there to "find themselves" or to "experience Paris," and they always struck me as having gone into it bass ackwards.

 

The things that made our experience so rewarding:

 

* A stable job, with its attendant help navigating through the bureaucracy.

* A community of English speakers, just to give my ears a break from time to time.

* A strong and exciting church community.

* Love for the country we were in. (We only vacationed outside of France once, our whole time there, not counting three conferences we went on through dh's work.)

 

Also, we weren't particularly attached to the American community in Paris, but I'm sure it made our lives easier. There was an anglophone library, seven churches, a synagogue, yadda yadda yadda.

 

I disagree that you get tired of a place after a year. You're just getting your feet under you after nine months!! After three incredibly full years, we still had a long, long list of things we never got to do--places we never got to, experiences we missed, foods we still hadn't tried, etc.

 

I doubt I would ever up and move just for the sake of moving. But when employment took us Paris, it was indeed a terrific opportunity. And if we ever got jobs there again, we'd go yesterday.

 

What she said!:D

 

We'd move to Belgium, France, or Italy yesterday...faster than yesterday. Incredibly positive experience for us.

[PiCO]

Socialized medicine is fantastic. The American system is lousy and expensive and wasteful. Doctors there always choose the most expensive option. If you think it is great, just watch someone in your family die, and watch the doctors rub their hands with greed that last month. I wish my father had been with me while he died. He would have got much better care here... and we are in a country that is relatively poor compared to the USA.

 

 

This is patently false and I find it offensive. I did watch a loved one die of cancer here, and the doctors certainly did NOT "rub their hands with greed that last month." The doctors were just as disappointed as I was when the cancer kept returning after different treatments.

 

The doctors did choose some expensive options, but those options extended dh's life by 2 years.

[Colleen in NS]

Reading about others desires to move to another country, prompted some questions about how you actually go about doing that. I often tell myself that I'd love to move to another country, like one of our pilgrims, to take my children away from this culture and start fresh somewhere else.

 

But are you able to just up and move to another country---aren't their legalities to consider? Canada for example--can anyone just move there? Do you not have to have a green card?

 

Something so drastic always sound enticing, but I doubt I'd ever go through with it...too many family members/connections here. But I'd like to know how to go about doing it if it ever was a viable option.

 

Ginger

 

I married a Canadian, that's how I went about moving out of the States! :)

 

You don't get a green card for Canada, you get a work visa, student visa, or apply for permanent residency (i applied as a spouse of a Canadian, but there are other ways to apply). I first came to Canada on a student visa.

 

It was hard for me at first to move here permanently, leaving behind the familiar, but of course I was getting married, so that was a good reason to go :D. And that was 15 years ago, so I am very used to living in Canada now, and this is my "new" life.

 

As for some other items I saw brought up: if you are American living out of the country, you only have to pay taxes if you make more than something like $80,000 US per year (and I can't remember if that's before or after Canadian deductions, etc.). I fill out the forms every year (1040 and 2555EZ), and that amount keeps going up. Even when I was working for pay, I never had to pay U.S. taxes from Canada. Also, I have voted for offices other than president, on my absentee ballot. Also, I LOVE the health care system here. I am so thankful for free care for the necessities, esp. the more I hear about what's going on in the States. And I am still an American citizen, despite having acquired Canadian citizenship. My kids and I are all dual citizens, which makes travelling easier.

 

But you are right, it's a drastic move. Dh and I have considered moving out of Canada, too, to maybe Europe (dh can get an ancestry visa to England and eventually become a citizen if he wants, and so can we apparently), but most likely it won't happen, at least not soon. But if it's something that you want to do, and an opportunity comes up, then why not consider it? Sure it's a hassle and it costs, but you have to decide if it's worth it to you. I was just talking to a Mexican woman today on the phone, who has been coming to our church. She and her husband came here a year ago from Texas, for her dh's job. In a couple of weeks, they are being transferred to France (Sorry, Sarah!!!) for four years. So she has moved from Mexico, to the States, to Canada, and now to France, and she loves the adventure of it. She's happily learning French now. The hassle is worth it to her and her dh.

[Janet in Toronto]

My family and I moved to the US for five years from Canada. It was a great experience and quite different culturally. (We were in the South....). We needed visas to move to the US which were sponsored by DHs work. The children and I were on visas that did not permit us to work (or even get SSNs), but we eventually got Green Cards.

 

We are now back in Canada and have an appreciation for the different systems. While we had excellent health insurance in the US, health care was much more costly for us than in Canada, for equivalent quality care (although US hospitals and docs offices are more nicely decorated....). Shopping is better in the US, but society is much less consumption-oriented in Canada (and I sort of got sucked into that, I have to admit). We miss the great weather, excellent roads, and the openess to religious practice in the US....Canada is a very secular society and religious practice is something of an anomaly. Public schools were better, at least in our county in Georgia, than our experience in Ontario.

 

It was a fantastic opportunity for the whole family to experience something different, meet new people, and seeing new ways of doing things, for better or for worse. To understand that there are different fundamental beliefs about life, the earth, and our role in the world. The US sometimes felt like an island unto itself. I can't count the number of times I heard things like "The US is the only country in the world where you can start from nothing and become something." I just had to laugh.

 

ANYWAY....I have great affection for our neighbours to the south and would live there again if the opportunity presented itself.

 

To come to Canada, you need to marry a Canadian, have a big pile of money to invest in a business here, or get a work permit (that can lead to permanent residence status). Under NAFTA, there are some classes of workers that can get a permit almost automatically (scientific/computer science/engineers). There are other categories of workers that get preference because there aren't enough Canadians to do those jobs.

 

For anyone that I've enticed to give Canada a try, here's the Citizenship and Immigration Canada website!

[Laura Corin]

.....the United States is still the greatest nation on Earth.

 

An American election expert writes a speech suggesting that the US is the envy of the world. Other members of the team suggest that this may not in fact be true. His reply, "People in England don't vote [in the US elections],' by which he means that he doesn't actually care what people in the rest of the world think - all that matters is that he and other Americans believe themselves to be the envy of the world.

 

Do I think that the US is the greatest nation on earth? I really don't think that nationhood is a race with only one winner. The US suits some people. For others, some US citizens included, other choices are preferable.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[pqr]

Laura,

 

Sometimes even Hollywood is right:-)

 

As I stated I have spent years overseas, and undoubtedly will continue to do so. I well understand the desire to live overseas and have followed it, but that does not mean that I am not also realistic. Despite individuals telling me that they strongly disagree with my comments no one yas yet provided any evidence to show that in the grand scale of things I am wrong.

 

I received a negative reputation point (please note that I am NOT suggesting this was from you) that stated "such attitudes are why we are held in contempt" interestingly enough whoever left this has never posted anything to show that I am wrong in my attitudes, just that others may not like them (One might argue that the ability to air such opinions is yet further proof of my argument). I, as an immigrant and naturalized citizen, know full well the views that many non-Americans hold for this nation, but most of them will agree, in the end, that we in the US have more freedoms and a better quality of life than anywhere else.

 

If you wish to argue that nationhood is not a race with only one winner, I may accept that you have an argument, even if I do not completely agree. (Though I do understand that some Scandinavian nations may certainly be contenders) Nevertheless we probably would agree that there are only a few contenders for the front tier and that the overwhelming majority of nations are some way back.

[Laura Corin]

Despite individuals telling me that they strongly disagree with my comments no one yas yet provided any evidence to show that in the grand scale of things I am wrong.

 

You also have to take into account how much the individual cares about those scales. I might think that universal health care is important; you might think that the right to bear arms is crucial.......(of course, these are random examples)

 

You say that the US is the best country in the world. I have lived there and prefer to live elsewhere - I may value different aspects of life to those that you value. My US-born-and-bred husband also prefers to live elsewhere. It's your impressions against ours; this does not add up to a reasoned argument.

 

Laura

[pqr]

 

You also have to take into account how much the individual cares about those scales. I might think that universal health care is important; you might think that the right to bear arms is crucial.......(of course, these are random examples)

 

You say that the US is the best country in the world. I have lived there and prefer to live elsewhere - I may value different aspects of life to those that you value. My US-born-and-bred husband also prefers to live elsewhere. It's your impressions against ours; this does not add up to a reasoned argument.

 

Laura

 

 

Laura,

 

With respect.

 

Scales??

 

Universal Health Care?? I think that point has been belaboured in this post. Again, if someone does not trust the universal education offered by various governments why would they trust universal health care offered by the same governments?

 

Freedom of religion. The ability to worship as one wishes without facing the wrath of the government (As one does in most of the Arab World and in China). Even the United Kingdom is now facing debate over Sharia Law and if a priest who makes anti-homosexual statements may find himself facing charges.

 

Freedom of expression, to include being able to make statements even if some find them offensive and NOT face civil or criminal charges. (As one would in many parts of Europe, Africa and South America).

 

Freedom to keep what one earns without paying most of it to the government (As one does in much of Europe)

 

Freedom not to report your movements to the police every time you change residences (As one must do in much of Europe and some of the more developed nations in Asia)

 

Freedom to defend yourself, your family and your property without facing charges (As one does in most of the non-US world)

 

Freedom to access the web without the Communist Government shutting down access to web sites (As one finds in China)

 

Freedom to homeschool.

 

Freedom to elect one's leaders (Still rather rare in many parts of the world, especially Africa and of course China)

 

I offer substantative and measurable freedoms, pray tell what nation offers, on the whole, greater ones?

 

If we are talking about the intangibles then I agree there are reasons to live overseas (I do), but the "reasoned argument," on nations, deals in tangibles such as are listed above.

 

I do not know the answer to this question, but I would assume that if your American born husband prefers to live overseas, perhaps because he does not believe that the US is the finest nation and has found somewhere better, then he has renounced his citizenship. I would also assume that your children are not dual nationality but rather have taken yours. If both of these assumptions are not correct, then .....QED

[Greta]

Hi pgr. I lost track of this conversation and got involved in others. But I wanted to finally acknowledge your response and let you know that I appreciate it. I have, unfortunately, never had the experience of living in any country other than the US. It is my sincere hope that I will someday, probably not permanently, but at least long enough to be able to really understand a culture other than my own. I agree with Laura's sentiment that some cultures and governments are going to suit some people and not others. We all have different priorities. And yes, there are objective ways to measure quality of life. But some that are important to me were not on your list. So I cannot conclude that the US is the best place for me to live. It might be. It might not. I hope someday my experiences will allow me to better answer that question.

 

Also, I think my reasons for homeschooling are probably different from yours. :D

[pqr]

GretaLynne,

 

As long as our children grow up to be something that we can be proud of, honour their family name, defend their beliefs, and are an asset to society I suppose the reasons for making the choice to homeschool do not really matter quite as much.

 

-pqr

[Laura Corin]

Laura,

 

With respect.

 

Scales??

 

Universal Health Care?? I think that point has been belaboured in this post. Again, if someone does not trust the universal education offered by various governments why would they trust universal health care offered by the same governments?

 

Whether you trust it or not is your business, simply your opinion. Is it better to have excellent healthcare for some and dreadful for others, or mediocre for everyone? That's a matter of personal belief.

 

FWIW there are many reasons to home educate - not all do it out of mistrust.

 

Freedom of religion. The ability to worship as one wishes without facing the wrath of the government (As one does in most of the Arab World and in China). Even the United Kingdom is now facing debate over Sharia Law and if a priest who makes anti-homosexual statements may find himself facing charges.

 

On China and other countries, I have no argument.

 

The Anglican tradition has been that of a broad church; this remains the national opinion. We do not seek to make windows into men's souls. Forbidding inciting others to violence, however, is UK law: the protection covers evangelicals as much as it covers homosexuals.

 

The debate on Sharia law (following on from an incautious statement by the Archbishop of Canterbury) was a storm in the teacup.

 

Freedom of expression, to include being able to make statements even if some find them offensive and NOT face civil or criminal charges. (As one would in many parts of Europe, Africa and South America).

 

I think that you will find that, since 9/11, US freedom of speech has been very much curtailed. That's a glass house to throw stones from, I believe.

 

Freedom to keep what one earns without paying most of it to the government (As one does in much of Europe)

 

People in the UK do not pay 'most' of their income to the government. On the other hand, my American husband has been paying US taxes for the last twenty years that he has not lived in America. I believe - but may be wrong - that the only other country to tax the overseas earnings of its expatriate citizens is Cuba.

 

Freedom not to report your movements to the police every time you change residences (As one must do in much of Europe and some of the more developed nations in Asia)

 

People in the UK did not even have picture driving licences until the last ten years. I still have an old one: a typed piece of paper with my signature on it. I have never reported my location or moves to the police.

 

Freedom to defend yourself, your family and your property without facing charges (As one does in most of the non-US world)

 

It is in the law of the UK that you can defend your home and your family from intruders if you reasonably feel that you are at risk. You may not shoot a lost exchange student who innocently comes up your driveway and knocks on your door, but you may attack a burglar.

 

Freedom to access the web without the Communist Government shutting down access to web sites (As one finds in China)

 

I do not defend China.

 

Freedom to homeschool.

 

The UK has freedom to home educate. I have recently moved to Scotland, and have no requirement to report to the government, have my children submit to testing, submit annual notifications...... nothing. Few states in the US are so liberal.

 

Freedom to elect one's leaders (Still rather rare in many parts of the world, especially Africa and of course China)

 

I have never defended dictatorships. If you read my blog, you will find it to be concerned with people, not politics. Last I checked, most European countries had ancient democratic systems.

 

I offer substantative and measurable freedoms, pray tell what nation offers, on the whole, greater ones?

 

You assume that freedoms are the most important aspects of a society. I have answered your questions above, but I ask you to ponder your own stress on this one aspect. Culture, security, tolerance, responsibility, mutual aid - these are all worthy values. Freedom is not the only prize.

If we are talking about the intangibles then I agree there are reasons to live overseas (I do), but the "reasoned argument," on nations, deals in tangibles such as are listed above.

 

See my replies above.

 

I do not know the answer to this question, but I would assume that if your American born husband prefers to live overseas, perhaps because he does not believe that the US is the finest nation and has found somewhere better, then he has renounced his citizenship. I would also assume that your children are not dual nationality but rather have taken yours. If both of these assumptions are not correct, then .....QED

 

No, my husband has not renounced citizenship and my children do, indeed, have dual nationality. How does this prove that the US is, or we believe it to be, the best country in the world? We keep US and UK citizenship, as well as right of abode in Hong Kong. We feel that there is a value in having options in this crazy world we live in. FWIW I have not chosen, at this time, to pursue US citizenship.

 

 

I fear that, in your zeal for your own country, you lump the rest of the world together. I would only ask that you try to see your own country as others see it, and consider calmly that other nations may also boast virtues.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[Susan in KY]

I highly disagree with that last post. If you go into another country with a chip on your shoulder, or thinking that the USA is best, you cut off your opportunity to learn.

 

Hmm, I didn't quite read that into that post. I think the poster was right. Having lived as an exchange student in a few different countries (one muslim) and as a missionary in several places, and in the military abroad, I agree that the USA is a truly great nation! That doesn't mean I don't appreciate other nations and cultures, or that I go around with a chip on my shoulder. I just recognize our unique-ness in the world.

 

About socialized medicine, I am eligible for the VA healthcare system, and I use it. It *is* socialized medicine, right here in our own country. While I have been treated by some phenomenal doctors, I also have an ankle injury I have had to jump through hoop after hoop for. It's been 15 months since I injured it and they've done all sorts of tests. They *know* the issue, but haven't been able to fix it because my PCP referred me to podiatry instead of orthopaedics. The podiatrist isn't allowed to treat the ankle, but he had to try all these methods of fixing it before he could send me to the othopaedist. I am still in pain, waiting for my appointment over a year later.

 

Granted, I stick with it because it is cheap and when I do get care, it seems to be very good. But 15 months for a referral? Really.....

 

Susan