mitzvahmommy Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I am planning my language arts for next year for my two ds who will be in the 4th and 2nd grades. I will be using "old school" books for spelling - Natural Speller and How To Teach Spelling, as those appeal to me. I purchased Learning Grammar Through Writing, and thought I might use that alone as a grammar program, but am not sure what else I need to teach. I have no plans right now for teaching literature or poetry. I see that EVERYONE seems to love MCT - and yet I have read that the program doesn't teach spelling, or diagramming, or grammar thoroughly, or.....I forget what else was on the list of what it doesn't teach well, but the list was long! I am a newish homeschooler, so I am sure I am missing something, but if the list of what it doesn't teach well is so long, and people using it feel the need to supplement with several other resources, why do people love it? If it cost $20, of course I would simply buy it and find out what all of the fuss is about. But with that big price tag, I am hesitant to sink a big portion of my budget for next year into a program that leaves several gaps/holes. We tried FLL this year, and were just BORED to death. The scripted style seemed strange and the pace was slow. MCT lovers out there, please tell me what the love affair is about. Also, if anyone out there has a better recommendation of a program for us, I would love any suggestions! Thanks, Rina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Have you discovered the search function? I suggest you search the archives for MCT, and you'll find LOADS of reading! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Well, not everyone loves it, but those of us who do are often people who "tried FLL this year, and were just BORED to death. The scripted style seemed strange and the pace was slow" ;) so I think you may be one of us!!! :D We (meaning dd and I) like MCT because we hate workbooks, fill in the blanks, etc. We like discussion-based programs. We love words & language and like our grammar examples to come from good literature. We're working hard to learn the vocabulary that will let us read the Great Books. We would much rather do snuggle-on-the-couch reading and discussion, than sit-at-a-desk and fill in the blanks or circle stuff. So MCT is right up our alley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK_Mom4 Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 MCT and FLL were both fails here because DD doesn't like scripted material and she also doesn't want to sit and discuss stuff with me (at least not English!). MCT seems like a nice program, it just didn't work for us. She prefers a just-get-it-done workbook with very little teacher intervention. Her favorite years have been using Hake grammar and writing and now Lightning Lit where all of the teaching is in the student books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 No, not everyone loves MCT. I personally have a love/hate relationship with it. The vocab (at least in the "town" and "voyage" level) is amazing, the poetry is good, and the grammar that it does cover is "meaty". But the way the grammar instruction is spread out over the three books and the ADDish jumping from topic to topic before circling back to the first one drives me up a wall. Here is a previous thread on folks who don't like MCT containing links to several others on the topic. Spelling and mechanics practice are the two big areas that MCT does not cover, but they are easy to supplement. It sounds like you already have spelling covered, and mechanics can be done via something like Evan-Moor Daily Paragraph Editing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mukmuk Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Ds and I never tried any other grammar program, so we have no comparison. But from what I see, it's grammar in a story telling way. SO much more captivating than practicing rules, rules, rules! And it sticks very well too. Snuggle on the couch is the way we school :D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NittanyJen Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 ... I have no plans right now for teaching literature or poetry. I see that EVERYONE seems to love MCT - and yet I have read that the program doesn't teach spelling, or diagramming, or grammar thoroughly, or.....I forget what else was on the list of what it doesn't teach well, but the list was long! I am a newish homeschooler, so I am sure I am missing something, but if the list of what it doesn't teach well is so long, and people using it feel the need to supplement with several other resources, why do people love it? Thanks, Rina From my perspective, and my kids may have a very different learning style than yours: 1. I think MCT helps enormously with spelling, more than many traditional spelling programs. The grammar stage vocabulary books focus on Latin word roots, which will be found throughout the English language, and as you learn to recognize and hear/spot those roots, you learn to spell those words with less effort instead of memorizing them as "exceptions" in spelling lists. It makes English spelling make a lot more sense! In the upper levels, it includes Greek, Old English, German, and other roots as well, making vocabulary and spelling an integrated study, and is quite effective. 2. Diagramming is introduced in logic stage rather than in grammar stage (Magic Lens level). It just isn't given central focus in the program. 3. I find the grammar teaching to be extremely thorough. I grew up as the daughter of a highly talented English teacher, and one of my degrees is in linguistics, and I have no complaints about how thorough the program is thus far. I have DS9 using Town level (after a year of Rod and Staff) and DS12 using the first Magic Lens level (after a year of GWG and Grammarlogues). I find MCT not only does a fantastic job of teaching grammar, but of illuminating or the student how the sentence structures and parts of speech and poetics all work together (or against each other, in poorly crafted work) so they can see WHY grammar matters. Very few programs ever get to the level of demonstrating the relatedness of all those structures we simply use without thought when speaking! My 9YO with language difficulties can now explain clearly where and why nominative and predicate pronouns are used. The practice books are essential as a part of the program, and are part of the teaching of the grammar; the grammar instruction is not all in just the main introductory book-- skip the workbook, skip the heart of the program where the learning takes place. 4. Many people don't like the writing instruction. I am working through Paragraph Town with DS9, and so far, so good. However, we have enjoyed WWE and IEW and Unjournaling in the past and don't want to ditch them. I have no opinion on the writing component, good or bad, other than the book is a delight to read. Sooooo... I don't find a lot that is lacking or needs supplementation. There isn't a lot about punctuation, but punctuation is not rocket science; just teach them the rules and consistently make them correct errors. MCT does teach the trickier stuff such as punctuating clauses correctly. I love the way the poetry, vocabulary/spelling, grammar, and practice books all reinforce each other's concepts. I love how it makes grammar less intimidating, and make sense. I love how it isn't at all scripted, yet gives you what you need to discuss everything with your kiddo without a bunch of prep work-- it is open and go. I love that the writing books are funny and that my 9YO begs to do grammar and vocabulary, subjects that "should" be onerously difficult for him, but at which he now excels. It is parent intensive, but that's okay-- I signed up for that when I chose to homeschool! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UrbanSue Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I have never used MCT--I think I need to have it in my hands to wrap my head around it but the online stuff just doesn't do it for me. But we're also not FLL fans. We do LA like this: WRTR for spelling, very cheap and easy (once you learn it); narrations in history and copywork/dictation/reading practice from McGuffey's. I have the WWE textbook and I follow SWB's progression for copywork and dictation difficulty at the various levels and also more or less use the narration guidelines for history narrations. Handwriting is focused on in spelling and copywork. It feels pretty streamlined and it is very inexpensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Five More Minutes Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I like MCT because my dd loves it. She's a words girl, and she "gets" MCT on some deep level. It feeds her little literary soul. I enjoy tagging along for the ride! I get to snuggle up with her while she pores over these books (re-reading them for her favourite parts) and we get to tackle sentence analysis together like it's a puzzle. FWIW, I think MCT does teach grammar thoroughly, but it doesn't cover mechanics. My dd is absorbing, retaining, and working with concepts from MCT in a way that she wouldn't / doesn't with other programs. And although it doesn't teach diagramming, it teaches sentence analysis in a different, but I feel equally strong, schematic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbmamaz Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 MCT is only 'snuggle-on-the-couch' for the first 2 levels i think? idk, i guess level 3 maybe . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NittanyJen Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 . And although it doesn't teach diagramming, it teaches sentence analysis in a different, but I feel equally strong, schematic. See above. MCT does cover diagramming, but in the Magic Lens level. It just isn't the central focus of the program, but it is there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbmamaz Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 its not actually diagramming, its analysis but no tree branches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 It's wimsical and elegant and poetic and inspirational and funny. I could keep going :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 If you have no plans to study lit or poetry at these ages, it is not your program. I like it because it teaches more than spelling and diagramming. We love the poetry, language and vocab component. The Practice Island and Practice Town books (level 1 and 2) do have what he calls 4 part sentence analysis. The grammar taught is more meaningful than the basic grammar we have looked at, IMO. MCT is a big ideas type program, not at all a mechanical approach. It's not going to work for all kids/families but it works exceedingly well for us. It's one of my son's favorite parts of the day. My son is a natural speller and we do spelling bee prep rather than a spelling program. He is headed to the Scripps regional spelling bee so spelling isn't a huge worry for us. We don't miss it at all. Also the stems and roots taught with MCT have been helpful in both Latin and for spelling. Finally, there is no better way to learn spelling than through the study and reading of literature written with advanced vocab and complexity IMO. When we are going through the study words for the bee, much of the time my son can tell me the meaning of the word gleaned from the context of something he has read and will say something like "oh, this word was in (insert book name here) so I know it!" The books he references are everything from Treasure Island to Robinson Crusoe to Calvin and Hobbes comics. Words without literature are rather meaningless IMO and we have loved the add on lit trios that MCT is selling now. Unfamiliar words have the definitions printed right on the page and he draws attention to grammar and word usage directly from the book. So awesome. My son is reading A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court right now from the Time set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NittanyJen Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 its not actually diagramming, its analysis but no tree branches I will double check, but the stuff in my son's Magic Lens book looks like all the other diagramming we've ever done... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbmamaz Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 hmm, i guess i didnt get that far in to magic lens, in the lower levels its definitely not diagramming and i thought i'd always heard that he doesnt use diagramming, he uses his 4-part analysis instead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckymama Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Nope, there's actual diagramming in Magic Lens. My older two learned diagramming, but dd has learned MCT 4-level analysis. Either method is fine with me as long as the student understands the relationship between the words in a sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forgiven Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 My two oldest, 2nd and 4th grade, are both doing the Island level now. I originally didn't purchase MCT Island this year, but my daughter (4th grader) was bored with the normal LA (we used ViE--I love ViE). I could see that she did everything well, never got anything wrong, but it just wasn't clicking in her head. Something wasn't right. I decided to splurge and try MCT. I hemmed and hawwed at which level to start her on as she's in 4th grade, but ended up starting at the beginning (she'll be starting Town in a week or so). When MCT Island arrived, my eldest son (2nd grader) saw it and wanted to do it too. I told him that he could try but that if he didn't do well or struggled, he'd have to go back to his other LA program (LLATL, which he LOVED). My son has moved much slower through MCT Island than my daughter, but they're both learning so much and retaining it. My son will correct people on the use of the incorrect pronoun. It's quite funny. They both have picked up sentence structure so well, I'm floored. They understand sentences better than I ever did when I was in high school. I'm not sure what I'll do with my son next year as I'm not sure if he'll be ready for the Town level as he did Island a bit early. If he wants to try it, I'll let him, but I'm going to use ViE with him to start out as I do love that curriculum--MCT just resonates with my kids better. Angie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFM Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I have never used MCT--I think I need to have it in my hands to wrap my head around it but the online stuff just doesn't do it for me. But we're also not FLL fans. We do LA like this: WRTR for spelling, very cheap and easy (once you learn it); narrations in history and copywork/dictation/reading practice from McGuffey's. I have the WWE textbook and I follow SWB's progression for copywork and dictation difficulty at the various levels and also more or less use the narration guidelines for history narrations. Handwriting is focused on in spelling and copywork. It feels pretty streamlined and it is very inexpensive. We almost use the EXACT same things for LA. I use WRTR for spelling and McGuffey's and WWE and copywork...I love it. I honestly, liked the idea of MCT but found it not very user friendly when I tried to implementation. I like FLL 1&2 but move to R&S in 3rd. I like it, it's thorough, easy to follow, my kid likes it, etc. So, while I see the merit of MCT working for some, I am not a fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof3littles Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I love it. My kids really enjoy a literature-based approach to a lot of subjects, so they like that grammar is told through a story. They've also enjoyed things like Grammarland, Sir Cumference, Penrose, etc. I'll admit that looking at the samples, I just did not get it. At all. But I decided to take the leap based off of what I had read here, and I think it is really such a rich program. We used BL and MoH as part of a co-op, and the interplay between those two was great for us. The kids would use some of what they learned in MoH to write their stem poems for BL. I wish I had learned grammar the MCT way; I skated by on the little bit I learned in school, and was fortunate to sort of just innately pick up on things well enough to get by. My DS1 gets frustrated that he can't get every Practice Island question correct, and I have to remind him that he probably knows more grammar than many highschoolers. I have had him diagram a bit using FLL3, just to expose him to the idea. We also use Daily Paragraph Editing with it. THe beauty of it all didn't resonate until we started using it, and I realized the kids were getting so much out of it. Looking at the samples had me puzzled. I'm glad I took the leap. That said, I'm sure it isn't a great fit for all kids, and it definitely is teacher-intensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariston Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Can i hijack slightly, although maybe this will be useful to the OP since she has two children....Is MCT best done individually or together with two children? I was going to start t for my (will be) 9 year old next year, but now we've decided to homeschool my (will be) 7 year old and I'm not sure how to plan for it... Elena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Because it speaks to my DD, who is very intuitive on grammar and mechanics (in a "It's just right!" sort of way that leads to high scores on standardized tests) in her own language, and gives her the words to understand what she already knows, without boring her, as pretty much every other grammar program I looked at did. She doesn't need a bunch of activities to teach her to identify a subject complement. She just needs to know that "Oh, that's what that thing is called!" and go on. And MCT, with the vocabulary, poetry, and just general play with language, is exactly what she needs. But, if she didn't already have that instant recognition of language structures, it wouldn't be right for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof3littles Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Can i hijack slightly, although maybe this will be useful to the OP since she has two children....Is MCT best done individually or together with two children? I was going to start t for my (will be) 9 year old next year, but now we've decided to homeschool my (will be) 7 year old and I'm not sure how to plan for it... Elena My son did MoH and BL as part of a co-op class I taught. I really, really liked using it together in that setting; the kids really seemed to get a lot out of both doing it as a group, sharing their stem poems, analyzing poems together, etc. I think it was really beneficial. My kids are too far apart to really do it together, but my DD has picked up on some of the material. We did the grammar portion on our own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitzvahmommy Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 Thanks for the advice everyone. I have decided to steal money from a different subject area and splurge on this curriculum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholas_mom Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Because it speaks to my DD, who is very intuitive on grammar and mechanics (in a "It's just right!" sort of way that leads to high scores on standardized tests) in her own language, and gives her the words to understand what she already knows, without boring her, as pretty much every other grammar program I looked at did. She doesn't need a bunch of activities to teach her to identify a subject complement. She just needs to know that "Oh, that's what that thing is called!" and go on. And MCT, with the vocabulary, poetry, and just general play with language, is exactly what she needs. But, if she didn't already have that instant recognition of language structures, it wouldn't be right for her. THIS describes my son to a capital T. H e loves MCT Island and he knows his grammer and corrects ME when I get mixed up sentences for lessons. AND for some strange reason, he cannot get enough of Mud! Mud is a strange phenomenon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicianmom Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 My mom, the high school foreign language teacher, has worked with dd on 4-level analysis in Practice Island, and concluded that dd7 already has a better grasp on grammar and sentence structure than most high school students. So MCT is working. Also, it's dd's favorite part of the school day. Also, the poetry book is helping me as a beginner songwriter. Therefore, I will close my eyes and ignore the fact that I'll be spending more on Town next year than for the rest of the year's curriculum for 2 kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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