NCAA?

[ElizabethB]

Hugs to all of you...I hate stupid paperwork!

 

Anyway, I just wondered if what I did is still a possibility? I was invited to be a recruited athlete for my sport in college, but it was a ton of extra paperwork and I knew I was competitive for normal admissions. So, I just went through normal admissions and then tried out for the team as a "walk-on" my freshmen year. I made the team and did 1/4 of the paperwork for college admissions compared to the paperwork needed for athletes. This is a NCAA Div I school, but this was a while ago.

[In The Great White North]

Anyway, I just wondered if what I did is still a possibility? I was invited to be a recruited athlete for my sport in college, but it was a ton of extra paperwork and I knew I was competitive for normal admissions. So, I just went through normal admissions and then tried out for the team as a "walk-on" my freshmen year. I made the team and did 1/4 of the paperwork for college admissions compared to the paperwork needed for athletes. This is a NCAA Div I school, but this was a while ago.

 

No, you have to do all the paperwork to be allowed to compete as a freshman, whether you are recruited or not.

[swimmermom3]

No, you have to do all the paperwork to be allowed to compete as a freshman, whether you are recruited or not.

 

So...

 

If a student is accepted to a school on a purely academic basis and once he gets there decides he might like to play a sport, he is SOL if he is a homeschooler and has never done anything with NCAA requirements?

[In The Great White North]

If a student is accepted to a school on a purely academic basis and once he gets there decides he might like to play a sport, he is SOL if he is a homeschooler and has never done anything with NCAA requirements?

 

My understanding is that he still has to jump through all the hoops before he can practice/compete in college. Or wait til he's a sophomore, at which point they accept his college grades as proof of his academic work.

[snowbeltmom]

Hugs to all of you...I hate stupid paperwork!

 

The stupid paperwork I can handle. It is the stupid policy that I have a problem with.

 

If I were to be completely honest when completing the NCAA worksheet, I was told today that the NCAA would not accept the AP Chemistry class my son took with PA Homeschoolers because the class has not been accredited by the NCAA. As the rep told me today, the "educational outcome" does not matter to the NCAA, so I can't use my son's AP and SAT II chemistry scores to demonstrate mastery of the subject and the effectiveness of the online class. The only way the course will be approved is if the online provider is accredited with the NCAA.

 

I have not investigated simply walking-on. My boys are going to need to go through the NCAA Clearinghouse. I'll just need to stock up on wine and dark chocolate.

[ElizabethB]

No, you have to do all the paperwork to be allowed to compete as a freshman, whether you are recruited or not.

 

That is too bad. I hate paperwork. We are a ways off anyways, but that is still not good to hear that my loophole is now closed. (Of course, I wasn't homeschooled, but still.)

[Luckymama]

...wanders off to thank dd for choosing ballet...

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

 

That is too bad. I hate paperwork. We are a ways off anyways, but that is still not good to hear that my loophole is now closed. (Of course, I wasn't homeschooled, but still.)

 

My sports time is way back in misty memories. But I don't think it was a matter of recruit or walk-on. There were some forms I had to fill out with crew as a sophomore despite not being recruited. And I think with a high school transcript you would have been fine.

 

The whole situation is Kafkaesque. One of our classes is not yet approved but the same course taken through a state virtual academy IS ousted as approved. As in the virtual academy contracts with the exact same school I do and their kids take the same lessons and tests.

 

And of course if I stumble my way through Wheelocks with my kid that is homeschooling and is ok but if my kids are in a weekly online class with a PhD in classics that isn't approved it's not acceptable.

 

See I'm undoing all the good of the batch of cookies I made.

[swimmermom3]

My sports time is way back in misty memories. But I don't think it was a matter of recruit or walk-on. There were some forms I had to fill out with crew as a sophomore despite not being recruited. And I think with a high school transcript you would have been fine.

 

The whole situation is Kafkaesque. One of our classes is not yet approved but the same course taken through a state virtual academy IS ousted as approved. As in the virtual academy contracts with the exact same school I do and their kids take the same lessons and tests.

 

And of course if I stumble my way through Wheelocks with my kid that is homeschooling and is ok but if my kids are in a weekly online class with a PhD in classics that isn't approved it's not acceptable.

 

See I'm undoing all the good of the batch of cookies I made.

 

I appreciate everyone's input even if I can't yet find enough big girl words or use my indoor voice to respond. Sebastian, your use of "Kafkaesque" is quite polite considering the situation you describe above defies all logic. Who benefits from the NCAA requirements as they stand?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

 

I appreciate everyone's input even if I can't yet find enough big girl words or use my indoor voice to respond. Sebastian, your use of "Kafkaesque" is quite polite considering the situation you describe above defies all logic. Who benefits from the NCAA requirements as they stand?

 

 

This seems to be what they are fighting. http://chronicle.com/article/Need-3-Quick-Credits-to-Play/135690/

 

But the cure sure sweeps in a lot of other classes.

[swimmermom3]

This seems to be what they are fighting. http://chronicle.com...to-Play/135690/

 

But the cure sure sweeps in a lot of other classes.

 

Wow! I think I lead a sheltered life.

 

Okay. I can do the hoops, even if I don't like them, don't agree with some of them, and really had not planned of having to deal with them. At least now, I know they are there and that I should make them a part of our yearly accounting and planning.

[Corraleno]

... Any classes taken at PS/CC will be a breeze. ... They have new core course worksheets that ask a bunch of questions.

 

Do we still have to fill out course worksheets for dual enrollment/CC courses? Or do we just put in the title, name of the college, and "see college transcript"? I hadn't seen those worksheets before, just the sheet where you fill in course name and textbook, so I hadn't thought it would be a big deal. With the new format, I may have to look at more DE courses. :thumbdown:

 

I just think it's INSANE that NCAA will accept credits for a 10-day online course — with unproctored exams — from Western Oklahoma State, but won't accept a year-long course from PAHS or Lukeion. :cursing:

 

Jackie

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

Do we still have to fill out course worksheets for dual enrollment/CC courses? Or do we just put in the title, name of the college, and "see college transcript"? I hadn't seen those worksheets before, just the sheet where you fill in course name and textbook, so I hadn't thought it would be a big deal. With the new format, I may have to look at more DE courses. :thumbdown:

 

I just think it's INSANE that NCAA will accept credits for a 10-day online course — with unproctored exams — from Western Oklahoma State, but won't accept a year-long course from PAHS or Lukeion. :cursing:

 

Jackie

 

 

I think it is the fact that they know those courses are bogus that drove the policy change.

 

Eta: Because the university is accredited the college credits may transfer to another college. But I think NCAA feels that they can at least try to exert control over high school classes.

I can see how there could be abuse. I also know that we aren't part of that abuse.

[Corraleno]

But those courses are still legally being used for NCAA eligibility, whereas a homeschooler who takes a year of AP Latin with Lukeion and scores a 5 on the AP exam (which does check ID) would not be allowed to count that course towards eligibility.

 

And I don't understand the logic behind not allowing courses that include an objective, outside grade, but "mommy grades" are perfectly acceptable. Why would a cheating athlete pay tuition to PAHS/Lukeion/Landry/Owens/whatever plus pay someone to actually take the class, including doing all the homework and tests, when they could just pay someone to write up a few fake course descriptions and get mom to sign it (or even get someone else to forge it). The logic of these regulations totally escapes me. :confused1:

 

Jackie

[swimmermom3]

But those courses are still legally being used for NCAA eligibility, whereas a homeschooler who takes a year of AP Latin with Lukeion and scores a 5 on the AP exam (which does check ID) would not be allowed to count that course towards eligibility.

 

And I don't understand the logic behind not allowing courses that include an objective, outside grade, but "mommy grades" are perfectly acceptable. Why would a cheating athlete pay tuition to PAHS/Lukeion/Landry/Owens/whatever plus pay someone to actually take the class, including doing all the homework and tests, when they could just pay someone to write up a few fake course descriptions and get mom to sign it (or even get someone else to forge it). The logic of these regulations totally escapes me. :confused1:

 

Jackie

 

 

Jackie,

 

What I also find difficult to accept is that we have used several of the approved NCAA sources for our dd and an approved school for our oldest son last year. The quality of materials and instruction is mediocre at best and certainly nothing like what is offered through AoPS or PAHS. The only way we made Connections work was because I worked as hard as I always do when using my own materials and I supplementing where I felt it was necessary. The opportunities for kids to cheat the system and themselves is incredible.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

But those courses are still legally being used for NCAA eligibility, whereas a homeschooler who takes a year of AP Latin with Lukeion and scores a 5 on the AP exam (which does check ID) would not be allowed to count that course towards eligibility.

 

And I don't understand the logic behind not allowing courses that include an objective, outside grade, but "mommy grades" are perfectly acceptable. Why would a cheating athlete pay tuition to PAHS/Lukeion/Landry/Owens/whatever plus pay someone to actually take the class, including doing all the homework and tests, when they could just pay someone to write up a few fake course descriptions and get mom to sign it (or even get someone else to forge it). The logic of these regulations totally escapes me. :confused1:

 

Jackie

 

 

I think the article I linked was mostly about college players. And it does seem that largely is the school offering is accredited then the class is accepted (even high school) without much scrutiny.

And there are horrible contradictions in the courses accepted for high school. The worksheet directions and home school information talk about the course having a definite time span ( probably to screen the two week quickies out) yet the math classes of a nationally recognized gifted center are on the approved list despite being self paced. I doubt many are working through geometry in two weeks. But then isn't a summer school session only 3-4 weeks. I did a college history course in 3 week summer school complete with research paper and worked my tail off. My classmates were taking science and math courses in those same three week sessions.

 

I noticed that large big name online schools had courses approved while the actual company or school that had created the course content did not have approval. This was with both language and science courses from two different sources. Didn't see K12 listed.

 

It's all rather frustrating.

 

And then I found an article about the Texas college football star who is taking 50% of his college courses online and this is seen as a big move forward because he was set to take them all online and not set foot on the academic side of campus at all. There is a weird business of power sports in play here and the genuine homeschool scholar athlete in sports like tennis and swimming are just bystanders.

[snowbeltmom]

The logic of these regulations totally escapes me. :confused1:

 

There is no logic to these regulations if the real purpose of the NCAA Clearinghouse was to actually ensure that students are academically qualified to succeed in college. However, when a student athlete only has to score a 200 on the Reading and Math sections of the SAT in order to be deemed academically qualified, it is hard for me to believe that this NCAA Clearinghouse is about academics at all.

 

Yesterday I was told by the NCAA rep when I asked if I could submit AP and SAT II scores in math and chemistry to attest to the fact that the AoPS and PAH courses met the educational criteria, his response was that the NCAA does not care about the "educational outcome", only that the course was taken with an approved online provider.

 

I think a more accurate statement would have been, "The NCAA doesn't care about the educational outcome, we are only concerned with the money we can generate by requiring online companies to pay us a large fee in order for them to receive the NCAA stamp of approval."

 

The Clearinghouse approval process is nothing more than another way for the NCAA to generate money, both from the athlete and the online providers.

[Nscribe]

:wacko: Out of curiosity I read the thread. Wow! At this moment I am so glad Dd is in theatre/dance. I really just bow to you all. Sounds like Mom's need to be Olympians to make it through all the hoops, obstacles and trials.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Do we still have to fill out course worksheets for dual enrollment/CC courses?

 

No. No core course worksheets at all for CC/PS classes. You do have to send the NCAA transcripts from CC/PS. I haven't quite caught up to the uproar. I filled out the worksheets for all ds's classes in 9th grade and 1 in 10th grade. Everything else so far has been outsourced to CC/PS, so I don't really worry much. We got some reminder from NCAA to fill out the worksheets, so I did and emailed them in. Some, I copied the class syllabus and wrote 'see attached'. Honestly, I don't think the NCAA is out to prevent homeschoolers who are diligently educating their children from gaining eligibility. It's the ones that are using homeschooling as a cover for an uneducated athlete that they are looking for.

 

I called and asked when my ds's core course worksheets would be evaluated. They said at the earliest fall of senior year, and then only when a Div 1 or Div 2 requests it.

[Sunshine State Sue]

If I list the online course and it wasn't a NCAA approved course are we up the creek without a paddle.

 

I'm confused as to where you saw this. It looks to me like the worksheets are just trying to get the full picture of how the course was designed, the responsible adult(s), and some basic information about how the student was evaluated.

[swimmermom3]

I'm confused as to where you saw this. It looks to me like the worksheets are just trying to get the full picture of how the course was designed, the responsible adult(s), and some basic information about how the student was evaluated.

 

 

Sue, when I looked again at the paperwork for the courses, my impression is that I would have to do much of this anyway for my own paperwork and for college admissions. Right? Or am I misguided?

[Sunshine State Sue]

Sue, when I looked again at the paperwork for the courses, my impression is that I would have to do much of this anyway for my own paperwork and for college admissions. Right? Or am I misguided?

Sure. I hate doing Course Description/Course Content/Goals/Outline stuff. I just copy the ToC from the text or the syllabus from the private teacher. Sheesh. I'm not some educrat who wants to use fancy words explaining what they're going to learn.

 

Shoot. At the most, they may want more information and I send in all the homework, tests, labs, papers. I'm happy to share. They can do illegible handwriting analysis and determine it really did come from ds. :toetap05:

[Corraleno]

I called and asked when my ds's core course worksheets would be evaluated. They said at the earliest fall of senior year, and then only when a Div 1 or Div 2 requests it.

I'm trying to understand what the bolded means. If a student ends up recruited/accepted by a D1 or 2 school, does the school always request this information, or is it optional? IOW, if the student ends up at a D1-2 school, then the courses MUST be evaluated in order to determine eligibility, or they only review the courses if the school wants the courses reviewed, and otherwise it doesn't really impact eligibility?

 

Sorry for so many questions! I really appreciate the fact that you've navigated this maze and are willing to help the rest of us!

 

Jackie

[Sunshine State Sue]

I'm trying to understand what the bolded means. If a student ends up recruited/accepted by a D1 or 2 school, does the school always request this information, or is it optional? IOW, if the student ends up at a D1-2 school, then the courses MUST be evaluated in order to determine eligibility, or they only review the courses if the school wants the courses reviewed, and otherwise it doesn't really impact eligibility?

The student must be eligible to practice/play. The school isn't going to offer a spot on the team unless they are sure that the student is eligible. The NCAA isn't going to evaluate each and every homeschooler(or any student) that dreams they are good enough for a Div 1/2 school. When a Div 1/2 coach is interested, the NCAA evaluates the student's eligibility. Perhaps they do this for everyone and not just homeschoolers. Kind of like they start their evaluations based on who the coaches are interested in. If there's no interest, why bother...

 

At least that is what I gathered...

[Corraleno]

I'm confused as to where you saw this. It looks to me like the worksheets are just trying to get the full picture of how the course was designed, the responsible adult(s), and some basic information about how the student was evaluated.

But if the courses were done totally online (e.g. Lukeion Latin), with no direct involvement from me, and Lukeion is not an "approved provider," then that class cannot be used — isn't that correct? With the older form, where you just listed textbook and grade, it would have been possible to just list "Wheelock's Latin" plus the grade, and not mention that it was an outside class. Now you have to put in writing who taught the class, who designed the curriculum/syllabus, who made the assessments and gave the grades, etc. So there's no way (without lying) to get around the fact that a course was done online with an unapproved provider, and therefore cannot count as a core course.

 

For DS, that means he will have to do fewer online classes and more CC courses — which, besides being generally lower quality courses, results in a much less convenient schedule for an athlete who needs to travel out of town a lot for competitions. :(

 

Jackie

[snowbeltmom]

I'm confused as to where you saw this. It looks to me like the worksheets are just trying to get the full picture of how the course was designed, the responsible adult(s), and some basic information about how the student was evaluated.

 

 

The problem arises if your child has taken a class with an online provider that is not approved by the NCAA. I called the NCAA on Friday when I realized that we now have to fill out these worksheets.

 

I asked the NCAA homeschool liaison how I should complete the worksheet for the online Chemistry class my son took. I explained to the NCAA rep that I had absolutely no involvement in the class, all homework, quizzes and tests were graded by the online teacher, and if my son had a question he contacted the teacher. The NCAA rep said that the online provider would need to be assigned as the teacher of record. However, this online provider is not approved by the NCAA so this class would not be approved. The fact that my son has outstanding AP and SAT II scores after taking this online class is irrelevant - the NCAA would not grant him credit.

 

My son has enough homeschooled classes where I am the teacher of record so while I think this policy is flawed, it is not going to prevent my son from getting NCAA Clearinghouse approval.

 

Had I needed his online chemistry and foreign language classes in order to meet the core requirement, I guess I could get around the issue by declaring myself as the "teacher of record" even though I didn't "teach" him anything since ultimately I am the one who assigns the grade on my son's transcript, but I would feel a little uneasy about that approach.

 

I don't have a problem with filling out the worksheets. My problem is that if I fill out these worksheets honestly, the NCAA will not grant credit for classes taken with the AoPS or PAH. Many of us are homeschooling to provide our kids with the best academic education possible, and I think the NCAA is overstepping its boundaries.

[Corraleno]

The student must be eligible to practice/play. The school isn't going to offer a spot on the team unless they are sure that the student is eligible. The NCAA isn't going to evaluate each and every homeschooler(or any student) that dreams they are good enough for a Div 1/2 school. When a Div 1/2 coach is interested, the NCAA evaluates the student's eligibility. Perhaps they do this for everyone and not just homeschoolers. Kind of like they start their evaluations based on who the coaches are interested in. If there's no interest, why bother...

 

At least that is what I gathered...

 

So it's more a matter of "when they request it" rather than "if they choose to request it" — gotcha. Fall of senior year is kind of late to fix things, though, if they decide not to accept some of the homeschooled classes. :(

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

I don't have a problem with filling out the worksheets. My problem is that if I fill out these worksheets honestly, the NCAA will not grant credit for classes taken with the AoPS or PAH. Many of us are homeschooling to provide our kids with the best academic education possible, and I think the NCAA is overstepping its boundaries.

 

No kidding!!!

 

Jackie

[snowbeltmom]

Now you have to put in writing who taught the class, who designed the curriculum/syllabus, who made the assessments and gave the grades, etc. So there's no way (without lying) to get around the fact that a course was done online with an unapproved provider, and therefore cannot count as a core course.

 

For DS, that means he will have to do fewer online classes and more CC courses — which, besides being generally lower quality courses, results in a much less convenient schedule for an athlete who needs to travel out of town a lot for competitions. :(

 

Jackie

 

 

 

The bolded is what I have a problem with. Either we are not truthful in completing the form, or we may be forced to use a provider,either online or at the cc, that is of a lesser quality simply because they have NCAA approval. Our kids shouldn't have to sacrifice academics in order to receive NCAA credit.

[Corraleno]

The bolded is what I have a problem with. Either we are not truthful in completing the form, or we may be forced to use a provider,either online or at the cc, that is of a lesser quality simply because they have NCAA approval. Our kids shouldn't have to sacrifice academics in order to receive NCAA credit.

 

 

Exactly. A student could do 4 years of math with AOPS, get straight As plus 800 on SAT math, and be denied eligibility, while another kid who did 3 yrs of math with Keystone or American School, and got Cs in his coursework and 250 on the SAT, would be granted eligibility. Four years of Latin with Lukeion and a 5 on AP Latin would be ineligible, but 2 years of Spanish through an "approved provider" using "Power Glide" (or whatever the software is called) would be no problem.

 

That's insane. :banghead:

 

Jackie

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

 

Exactly. A student could do 4 years of math with AOPS, get straight As plus 800 on SAT math, and be denied eligibility, while another kid who did 3 yrs of math with Keystone or American School, and got Cs in his coursework and 250 on the SAT, would be granted eligibility. Four years of Latin with Lukeion and a 5 on AP Latin would be ineligible, but 2 years of Spanish through an "approved provider" using "Power Glide" (or whatever the software is called) would be no problem.

 

That's insane. :banghead:

 

Jackie

 

And while I'm glad that they didn't put themselves (that was an odd autocorrect) in the position of approving coursework done at home I do find it odd that if I teach the subject completely then it passes snuff but if I find someone more qualifies to teach for me then it has to go through a bunch of approval.

[In The Great White North]

They said at the earliest fall of senior year, and then only when a Div 1 or Div 2 requests it.

 

 

The NCAA isn't going to evaluate each and every homeschooler(or any student) that dreams they are good enough for a Div 1/2 school. When a Div 1/2 coach is interested, the NCAA evaluates the student's eligibility. Perhaps they do this for everyone and not just homeschoolers. Kind of like they start their evaluations based on who the coaches are interested in. If there's no interest, why bother...

 

Then what exactly is the $70 for?

 

So, they get everyone. who thinks as a freshman or sophomore, that they would like to play in college to pay the fee, but only do the work for a few of them?

It's an even bigger scam than I thought it was.

[Corraleno]

I just got off the phone with an NCAA homeschool liaison. I was told that online classes need to be accredited.

 

According to this person, none of the online providers I asked him about have NCAA approval:

PA Homeschoolers (which I read somewhere were approved, but he said they are not)

AoPS

Memoria Press online (I am using them for Latin)

 

As if things weren't confusing enough already... I found the page where PAHS courses are listed as approved on the NCAA website. However, it looks like the courses may only be "approved" if you get your diploma through PAHS's "accreditation agency."

 

Pennsylvania Homeschoolers Accreditation Agency (PHAA) is recognized by the NCAA. As a result, PHAA graduates can easily get athletic scholarships.

<snip>

If you plan to apply for an NCAA athletic scholarships to college, you should stick, as much as possible, to our core course titles on their transcripts since other titles will not be considered "core courses" by the NCAA. And when you create an account with the NCAA, be sure to just list yourself on the forms as a school student with school code "392057." If you identify yourself as a homeschooled student, they will ask you for extra procedures.

 

Here are the relevant pages:

http://www.phaa.org (scroll to the bottom and click the "core courses" link)

https://web1.ncaa.or...earchHighSchool (enter 392057 as the school code)

 

So PAHS's online AP courses are NCAA approved if you are a PA resident using their "diploma service," but the exact same courses are not allowed if you live in another state???

 

Jackie

[snowbeltmom]

As if things weren't confusing enough already... I found the page where PAHS courses are listed as approved on the NCAA website. However, it looks like the courses may only be "approved" if you get your diploma through PAHS's "accreditation agency."

 

So PAHS's online AP courses are NCAA approved if you are a PA resident using their "diploma service," but the exact same courses are not allowed if you live in another state???

 

Jackie

This is what I concluded as well after reading that page. It looks like the 'diploma service' arm of PAH has NCAA approval, but not each individual class.

 

I have thought about this quite a bit over the weekend. I am not going to let an athletic association dictate the educational choices I make for my kids. I am not going to worry about whether an online class has jumped through the hoops and paid the fees necessary to be awarded the NCAA stamp of approval. Since I am the one who ultimately assigns the grade to the transcript, I am going to list myself as the teacher of record and eliminate the risk that an online class that results in top scores on standardized tests for its students is deemed not credit worthy by an athletic association.

[Myra]

Let me see if I have this correct....

 

I can put down the AoPS textbooks if I used the actual texts to teach my kid at home and it will count.

But if they used the AoPS textbooks and did the online course, it doesn't count?

 

 

 

 

One more question......the NCAA states that New York homeschoolers need to take the GED since their are no state recognized homeschooling diplomas. However, would the certificate of high school equivalency letter granted by the superintendent qualify exempt the student from taking the GEDs?

 

Myra

[snowbeltmom]

Let me see if I have this correct....

 

I can put down the AoPS textbooks if I used the actual texts to teach my kid at home and it will count.

But if they used the AoPS textbooks and did the online course, it doesn't count?

 

You got it! Makes total sense, doesn't it. :cursing: :banghead:

 

Fwiw, I am listing myself as the teacher of record on these worksheets since I am the one who is responsible for assigning grades to the transcript. By listing myself as the teacher of record, my kids can take any online class they want and not have to worry about whether the online provider has the NCAA stamp of approval.

 

I have read that all students from NY have to take the GED. I would call the NCAA directly and ask about your situation. Good luck.

[skimomma]

Jumping in to say you all have me shaking in my boots. I have a 9yo cc skier. It is far too early to know where it will take her. But I don't want to close any doors. I heard a parent toss "NCAA Eligible" out there in a casual conversation. I wondered what that meant. Knowing I could get info here, I did a search. Yikes! I guess it is better to know this sooner than later, but again....YIKES! I originally thought this only applied to scholarships but to see you cannot even walk-on to a team when you have met the regular college admissions requirements!?! That is insane. Sorry. INSANE.

[wapiti]

I don't know whether this is relevant to the NCAA discussion, but FWIW, regarding accreditation, on the AoPS Facebook page there is a new post:

 

Art of Problem Solving

 

The Art of Problem Solving Online School is now formally accredited by the Western Association of Schools and Colleges. Hopefully this will help those of you discussing with your schools the possibility of replacing your school classes with AoPS courses. Some FAQ on our accreditation and taking our classes for grades can be found here: http://www.artofprob...p#accreditation

 

Western Association of Schools and Colleges

[Luckymama]

^^^ I saw that today on the AoPS main page!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Jumping in to say you all have me shaking in my boots. I have a 9yo cc skier. It is far too early to know where it will take her. But I don't want to close any doors. I heard a parent toss "NCAA Eligible" out there in a casual conversation. I wondered what that meant. Knowing I could get info here, I did a search. Yikes! I guess it is better to know this sooner than later, but again....YIKES! I originally thought this only applied to scholarships but to see you cannot even walk-on to a team when you have met the regular college admissions requirements!?! That is insane. Sorry. INSANE.

 

 

Don't freak out. There is a lot of time ahead of you. The situation might change a lot. There are evidently a lot of other issues at NCAA right now.

 

Btw I looks like a player can still practice and then use freshman year college grades for eligibility.

 

Is xc skiing div I or div II? And is skiing a sport that is NCAA governed?

[skimomma]

Don't freak out. There is a lot of time ahead of you. The situation might change a lot. There are evidently a lot of other issues at NCAA right now.

 

Btw I looks like a player can still practice and then use freshman year college grades for eligibility.

 

Is xc skiing div I or div II? And is skiing a sport that is NCAA governed?

 

Good to know. Thanks!

 

Nordic (xc) skiing is governed by NCAA, Div I and II.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

 

Good to know. Thanks!

 

Nordic (xc) skiing is governed by NCAA, Div I and II.

 

So what I would do is read through the eligibility handbook once and then ignore it until spring of 7th grade. There really aren't decisions you need to make until about 8th grade unless your kid is doing high school level work earlier. IMHO

 

There is enough out there to fret about, enough that will steal your joy in homeschooling. I wouldn't obsess over a system that will likely change 2-3 times before your kid is high school age.

[skimomma]

So what I would do is read through the eligibility handbook once and then ignore it until spring of 7th grade. There really aren't decisions you need to make until about 8th grade unless your kid is doing high school level work earlier. IMHO

 

There is enough out there to fret about, enough that will steal your joy in homeschooling. I wouldn't obsess over a system that will likely change 2-3 times before your kid is high school age.

 

Very good point. I am glad I found out about it but will stop worrying about it for a couple of years. If anyone finds out they are changing the rules and we now have to clear what diapers were used when the kid was an infant, someone PM me......

[plansrme]

 

 

Here's a break-down of times for the various divisions of college swimming. It's a little flexible - I had a guy on the high school team (who had never swum before high school) who walked on to a Div III team with a 1:12 100 Free and is doing great. By Christmas, he was down to a 1:01.

 

http://www.athleticscholarships.net/swimmingscholarships.htm

 

 

I question the accuracy of this chart. My 12 year old swims a 55 in the 100 free and a 59 in the 100 fly, but she is not going Div I with those times. She also makes the "cut" in this chart in several other events. From what I have gathered from looking at meet results, she has solid Div II times, and her best shot at Div I is in the 200 fly, which will require 2 minutes flat. I dunno, maybe the chart is right, which would be great, but I suspect the chart is overly optimistic.

 

Terri

 

[In The Great White North]

I question the accuracy of this chart. My 12 year old swims a 55 in the 100 free and a 59 in the 100 fly, but she is not going Div I with those times. She also makes the "cut" in this chart in several other events. From what I have gathered from looking at meet results, she has solid Div II times, and her best shot at Div I is in the 200 fly, which will require 2 minutes flat. I dunno, maybe the chart is right, which would be great, but I suspect the chart is overly optimistic.

 

I think so too, especially Div I. Certainly some of the schools I've looked at were more competitive. Dd likes nice pools. Schools with nice pools tend to be swimming powerhouses, with faster times.

 

A couple of points:

 

Those are averages, not absolute cut-offs. Some schools will be higher and some will be lower.

 

There is no date on the article. Some schools (like the Ivy League & top Div III schools) have made dramatic drops in recent years.

 

"Good" Div I swimming schools today are looking at Junior Nationals cuts. Medium Div I schools talk about Sectionals. There are a lot of Div I, II and III schools that are not swimming powerhouses. She may not be recruited with those times, but should be able to walk on with them. The guy in my earlier post walked on to a DIV III team last year and he was no where near any of those times.

[plansrme]

 

 

 

 

She may not be recruited with those times, but should be able to walk on with them.

 

Well yeah, except that she is 12. :)

 

Terri

[Lolly]

I question the accuracy of this chart. My 12 year old swims a 55 in the 100 free and a 59 in the 100 fly, but she is not going Div I with those times. She also makes the "cut" in this chart in several other events. From what I have gathered from looking at meet results, she has solid Div II times, and her best shot at Div I is in the 200 fly, which will require 2 minutes flat. I dunno, maybe the chart is right, which would be great, but I suspect the chart is overly optimistic.

 

Terri

 

 

 

Actually, it looks fairly accurate. (I have two graduating this year who will swim in college next year.) The thing to remember is that these are averages. Those times will NOT get you on one of the top Div 1 teams. There are Div 1 teams that aren't all that fast. Also, the times listed don't mean you are going to be offered a huge scholarship. The Div 3 and NAIA schools can have some extremely fast swimmers. It is more important to look at the individual schools to see what times would be competitive.

 

I think one thing kids need to keep in mind is to not look at what division they want to swim in in college. They need to be focusing on what SCHOOL they want to attend. For example, do they want to attend a large university? Mine did NOT. Do they need a school with a huge engineering dept? You can probably cross off most of the smaller schools. Don't let swimming be the focus of the search. It should be one of the last items of importance when choosing a school.

[plansrme]

 

I think one thing kids need to keep in mind is to not look at what division they want to swim in in college. They need to be focusing on what SCHOOL they want to attend. For example, do they want to attend a large university? Mine did NOT. Do they need a school with a huge engineering dept? You can probably cross off most of the smaller schools. Don't let swimming be the focus of the search. It should be one of the last items of importance when choosing a school.

 

I disagree with this as a hard and fast rule. My daughter is young, but swimming is her life. If she is ever going to get through college, she is going to do it to stay on swim team. We will be looking at the team, coach and pool first and then crossing our fingers that she can get in.

 

Terri

[Lolly]

I disagree with this as a hard and fast rule. My daughter is young, but swimming is her life. If she is ever going to get through college, she is going to do it to stay on swim team. We will be looking at the team, coach and pool first and then crossing our fingers that she can get in.

 

Terri

 

 

What I am saying is just don't get hung up on swimming in any particular division. THere are kids on my kids' team who are so caught up in having to swim for a division 1 or 2 team that they don't care about anything else. THey cannot believe my dd has signed with a division 3 when she has times that could get her into div. 1. They think it is beneath them. (She chose it because the school has a 94% acceptance rate to the graduate school area she is aiming for, gives good academic scholarships, has small classes, and has a coach and kids on the team that she clicked with.) Most of these kids if accepted on a division one team will not see much competition time. They won't receive much coaching. They will just be a body who has to be at practice.

 

Honestly, your dd is 12?, things are going to change in the next several years. In high school, most kids realize that swimming is not going to be their life. It is something they can continue, but it will be in a different realm than it is now. When she gets to the point you need to be looking at colleges, list the schools that have teams. There are schools in all categories of academics with swim teams! Then, look at the schools academics. Then, look at the team and the pool. Being a good swimmer can certainly open doors to schools where she might not stand a chance otherwise, but do you really want her to be in the bottom 5% academically? Try not to chose a school based solely on swimming. It is a recipe for misery. I've witnessed that mistake many times as I've watched kids graduate and move on, only to return home within the year.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I disagree with this as a hard and fast rule. My daughter is young, but swimming is her life. If she is ever going to get through college, she is going to do it to stay on swim team. We will be looking at the team, coach and pool first and then crossing our fingers that she can get in.

 

Terri

 

What happens when they cut the swimming program with no warning? Univ. of Maryland just dropped men's and women's swimming and diving the year after completing a beautiful new aquatics center.

 

From the articles I read, it looked like swimmers on scholarship were allowed to keep them; but if they wanted to swim, they had to transfer somewhere else. There was one swimmer for whom it was the second time his college team had folded.